"Why Chinese Mothers are Superior"

[citymama]

"Why Chinese Mothers are Superior" (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html?K EYWORDS=chinese+mothers+superior)
by Amy Chua
Wall Street Journal
January 8, 2011

A deliberately provocative article by a Chinese American law professor at Yale.

Read.

And let the comments begin! GO.

[codex57]

:nodno: I can't believe she wrote that.







She's giving away all the Asian secrets to success.

[fedoragirl]

Well, the title is very provacative, and so is the initial part of the article. However, midway through the article, she takes a very neutral tone by simply comparing the two parenting cultures.
I find that a lot of what she writes is true from my personal experience and from my experiences as a teacher. That is not to say that one is better than the other. IMO, there should be a balance between the two cultures. I should know--I am a product of two cultures.
The only thing that irks me as a parent, and something I didn't experience before now, is the constant judging that other parents do. You choices of clothing, food, discipline, weight gain, classes....everything is a source of gossip or immediate judgement in someone's mind. Sometimes, you can see what's going in in their head. In my parent's culture, no one judges or even questions if you yell at your kid in public, for example. In fact, they'll join in and correct your child--the "village" mentality. It's not offensive at all to correct someone's child at any time or place. The parents are actually thankful for that. I find that sadly missing in Western culture, and while it can be overdone,, it's just taboo to do that here.

[georgiegirl]

Very interesting. I'm white but I grew up in southern California, so I had lots of Chinese friends growing up. The article pretty true and I'm not at all offended. I just with I could find a way to be a Chinese mother without belittling my children. DH and I often talk about how to make our children successful. DH is from eastern Europe and has noted how so many smart, successful American parents have children who can't support themselves and he thinks its because the parents encourage to kids to do whatever makes themselves happy. I'm not sure what the answers are, but most of my Asian friends are successful and happy. But then again I can't imae any of them calling their children garbage.

[Neatfreak]

I also thought it was an interesting read, and figured that part of it was probabl written tongue-in-cheek. But I wonder if Ms. Chua's ever read "The Joy Luck Club"? :)

[ThreeofUs]

That was a phenomenal article. Lots of food for thought.

[Melaine]

I'm just not sure what to say about this. I am not sure I understand what her goal was, really. I guess I don't know how much of it is hyperbole or if she is really serious.

[fedoragirl]

I thought of some more examples that I grew up with. I had to finish everything on my plate whether I liked it or not, or whether I was full or not. I was underweight till my late 20s. On the other hand, I love trying new foods now. I eat almost every ethnic food available in my city, and love it. I still don't eat large portions. We amost always take a doggy bag in restaurants.
Another example is potty training. My mother tells me that I was potty trained in 2 days because she "made" me use the potty by making me stand in the bathroom (she was with me) for long periods of time. I was 18 months old. There was a no-nonsense approach to this. Also, there was no question of baby-led weaning in anything. The parent decided everything and when it was right for the child.
I can't decide if it was all good or all bad. I do know that out of close group of friends, 3 (out 5) of my friends were on anti-depressants, and have serious self-esteem issues. They were in the top ten of their graduating class.
I certainly incorporate a lot of my upbringing in my own parenting style. I still think there should be a balance between the two cultures.

[artvandalay]

I still think there should be a balance between the two cultures.

:yeahthat: Interesting article.

[L'sMommy]

Very interesting article. I am Asian and was raised this way, though not to this extreme. DH is not asian and we are already experiencing the culture clash, and DS is only 2. We continually have to work at finding a middle ground when it comes to child rearing.

[mommylamb]

I think in this day and age, when it is obvious that China is a rising superpower with an economy that has continued to grow at double digit speed throughout a worldwide recession, it is natural to ask "What are they doing right that the rest of us are doing wrong?" but I do not think the answer to that is this, or at least not on its own. I don't know a lot about the history of Chinese parenting philosophy, but I'm guessing this specific style didn't just crop up since the 1990s. (I'm thinking of China's ascendency on the world stage as taking off during that decade) And there was a long time period where Chinese parenting was just like this, but Chinese society was not so successful.

I'm ok with DS not being number 1 in all things.

[crl]

DH sent me that link. It is particularly interesting to me because while we are white, ds is Chinese. And it is a way in which he will never fit in. He doesn't have a Chinese mother. It was also interesting that dh said a lot of it was how he was raised (by white parents, but with a very different mind set than mine). He said, "and it worked for me. But not for my sister."

I honestly found parts of it almost frightening. It just seemed like such a harsh way to treat a child.

Catherine

[smilequeen]

My DH is Chinese and from that perspective, she comes off as extreme to me. My ILs are a pain in the ass but they are far more loving than that. FAR MORE LOVING. Plus...There are a billion Chinese people. Not all of them are successful. Not all of them are/were 1st in their class and musical prodigies. Even here, I have plenty of Chinese friends who don't take that sort of stance with their kids.

DH grew up with a lot of pressure. Is he successful? Yeah. Was he happy? Not really, until he moved a country away from his family. One of his friends said he was like this when he started at school in the states...He was like a piece of glass, he could just shatter at any time. By the end of 4 years, he was like steel, strong, confident. It was NOT being near his parents that did that to him. And it was being away from his parents that gave him the drive to really be successful. He moved back home to a mediocre job and then back to the States to a better one. He was #1 in his company by his second year. He's VP now. His older brother, who is under pressure to stay close and provide for his parents, is NOT incredibly successful. Although by all accounts he was incredibly intelligent and always at the top of his class, moreso than even DH.

Perhaps we western parents understand that you don't have to be the best at everything to be highly hsuccessful. DH actually has quite a balance and doesn't put a lot of pressure on our kids. Every once in a while he sees a friend pushing their preschooler through Kumon and getting success from it and wonders if he needs to put on more pressure. But then he can look and appreciate that our boys are intrinsically intelligent and that DS1 is having great success so far in K without having anyone pushing him. Without Kumon. Without worksheets. With a lot of play time.

[hellokitty]

Yeah, I read that article yesterday before it was posted here and was pretty disgusted. First of all, I can't believe that the author is at least a 2nd gen asian american and wholeheartedly thinks that this parenting style is somehow ok. This is how my taiwanese immigrant parents raised my siblings and myself. All I can say is that the constant belittling and criticism was really damaging, to the point that my siblings and I are still affected by it. My parents have NEVER said one kind word or made ANY sort of compliment, they felt that constant criticism was a way to motivate us to work harder, unfortunately it just resulted in unhappy, insecure, broken children. Are we successful? By definition, yes, if you look at a purely academic/career standpoint, but our family life with our parents is dysfunctional and unhealthy. Due to being treated like this we do NOT like our parents and loathe having much to do with them. I have one brother who doesn't have as hard a feelings about my parents, but he was the youngest and treated most, "nicely" out of the three of us. My other brother and I, esp myself as the oldest and only girl were treated pretty horribly, really it was emotional abuse the way we were treated and also physical abuse was involved as well. So, my other brother and myself have a really hard time dealing with our parents, we do what we have to do, but we resent our parents. My parents who treated us in this disdainful way while we were growing up, are old now and don't understand why none of us want to be close to them. Of course, it is OUR fault, not theirs. They feel that we are disrespectful to them, b/c we won't let them control our lives, even though we are all in our 30's and have our own families. They see nothing wrong with the way they raised us and cannot see how their actions have led to the result of an immensely crappy parent/adult child relationship. Worse yet, my father will go to his grave convinced that his three adult children are, "failures." No matter how hard we try, we were (and will) never good enough. He blames us for ruining his life, saying that if it weren't for us bringing him down and him having to, "sacrifice" for us, he could have gone on to have a much lucrative career (grandiose delusion, since he ran his own career into the ground all by himself). However, let's just blame the kids, b/c to 1st gen asian americans, the parents are ALWAYS right. :thumbsdown:

I would have thought that the author, having experienced this sort of treatment growing up, would be better able to balance out her parenting style, than to go to the far extreme that her parents put her through. I feel bad for her children, they will grow up and hate her for treating them this way. I hope she has the insight to realize this before she follows through with her craptastic parenting plan.

[Dream]

I'm asian and was raised very similar to this but not as strict. When exams get closer my mom would keep me up will into midnight grilling me, and we would wake early morning again to study. This was when I'm in garde 1. And as a result I did well in school, I didn't get A s in all but that was ok with my parents. They would never let me give up and I'm gratefull for that. They're even beaten me up many time which not against the law where I come from. I can honestly say there are things I would have done if I weren't scared of the beating, just a timeout or talking would not have kept me in the right path.

There's a huge difference in parenting tac tics in asia and the western world. I'm glad my parents used those tac tics and I believe I'm a better person coz of them. I know I'll be in the minority here.

[goldenpig]

Interesting article. We were raised in a pretty strict environment and our parents really pushed us academically. A's were expected, B's were not acceptable. We also had to practice the piano every day---not for 2 or 3 hours though! And we were never insulted or belittled like that. I don't think I could be (or want to be) the mother she describes even if I tried. I'm probably only 20% Chinese 80% Western in my approach. I do worry though that my being more laid back will result in my kids not doing as well as I did. I do think there is something to be gained by having high expectations and pushing your kids to persist/work hard. But I don't believe in tearing them down if they don't meet your goals. The tactics she described in the article really made me squirm.

I thought this was an interesting paragraph:
"Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't. There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away."


PS Codex, you are too funny.

[MamaMolly]

I feel for her kids, even if it is tongue in cheek. Sounds like things are often pretty miserable in her house. I'm glad I'm not her. Or her kid.

[AnnieW625]

I thought this was an interesting paragraph:
"Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.

This is my DH 100% and he is half Hispanic, and half French Canadian. My FIL was the second of 8 kids in a poor American military family. My FIL was raised this way, and in turn so was DH. DH has told me this many times and I do kind of agree. He doesn't want DD1 to be a sissy or afraid of anything.

Overall I found the article very tongue and cheek, and not all that well written. I would not want to have this woman as my mother, and my parents were somewhat strict as they didn't want us doing anything that would get us in trouble, and preferred As and Bs to Cs or Ds and required summer school in high school for topics we just didn't get (for me it was math), and we were always allowed to pick our own activities, but we always had to be involved in something, and we had to always complete it. If our grades were suffering we could not participate in sports, and that didn't seem out of the ordinary to me.

[dhano923]

There is a lot of truth in that article. Look at all the top academic students in the world -- the majority of them are from Asian countries. Same with child prodigies. China, India, Singapore, Japan... academics are the priority there.

Everyone raves about Singapore Math -- I have a family in Singapore and I can tell you that those kids aren't smart because of the math program, they're smart because academics are really pushed over there. You go to school, then after school you go to tuition, which is basically tutoring. You go for any subject you're not excelling in -- it's expected. Then you come home and do homework. Saturdays are for 1/2 day 2nd language school. The kids go to school 6 days a week. There is no summer vacation -- they get a week off here and there, but they are in school way more than the kids here in the US.

I'm Indian, and while my parents weren't this strict, there was some pushing. I used to go to the library to study for hours, even in college. I'd sit in my room before an exam and study for hours, and my mom would bring my food to my room. DH grew up in India and went to boarding school, and he used to have a very grueling academic schedule. Now, when he wants something, he'll work until he gets it. He's very driven.

There's a reason students from those countries excel -- they are taught to keep trying and practicing over and over until they accomplish the goal . When they're adults, companies try to woo them to work for them because they know they will have an excellent work ethic. Many large US companies hold job fairs in other countries because they can either hire a US employee for $XXXXX or hire a foreign employee with a better work ethic for the same money. When they come here, they're paid the same, but the employer gets more bang for their buck.

Here in the US, I think many parents let their kids give up too easily because they are afraid the kid can't handle it. But then the kid learns it's OK to give up when the going gets tough.

While I don't plan on being this strict, DH and I do plan on pushing our kids somewhat so they learn to be persistent and work until they accomplish their goals.

[ChristinaLucia]

Thanks for posting the article! It's very interesting.

[Myira]

Thanks for posting. The one thing that kept striking me is that, she herself has daughters that have managed to excel at whatever she has pushed them at. Her approach may have worked in making her daughters realize their potential and achieve excellence, but I cannot believe that will not end up in a disaster applied to other children. What about examples that are at the other end of the spectrum in her culture?

What when a child is not so academically inclined and comes home with a B or C on the report card despite sincere efforts on his/her part? With that high pressure approach where do such children end up? What about their self-worth, self-esteem?

[Sillygirl]

Interesting article, thanks for posting. I think what's missing from her analysis is the definition of success. A lot of Chinese and Japanese schools have been revamping their "kill and drill" approach because, while it gives great test scores, it doesn't foster creative problem-solving and innovative thinking. In the information economy, those are the skills that are most valuable. The east Asian countries have been outscoring us for years on standardized tests, but if they've overtaken us in patent applications, that's a pretty recent development.

Also, as a Montessori parent, I don't believe that children have to be "forced" to work. The forcing is necessary if you're introducing something that they aren't developmentally ready for. If you catch a child in their sensitive period for a particular skill, you have a hard time getting them to stop their work. Just because it isn't worksheets and it isn't graded doesn't make it worthless.

[twowhat?]

I really found this article fascinating even if she does seem to present a very extreme point of view.

[wencit]

That article really struck a chord in me and made me feel so queasy, as it brought back a lot of unhappy memories from my childhood/teenage years. My parents are Korean, and their techniques were quite similar to the ones the author describes. I remember being depressed and having suicidal thoughts in high school because I was so afraid I was going to get a B in AP Chemistry. That was the kind of fear that ruled in our household, and I'm sorry, but that is no way for a child to live! Similar to hellokitty's experience, while my sister and I are considered "successes" as far as our careers go, neither one of us is happy at all. (Well, technically, I am now, since I quit my job to become a SAHM. You can imagine the coronary my dad had when he found out what I had done. Best -- and first -- decision I'd ever made for MYSELF.) To this day, my father and sister don't have much of an adult relationship. She sees a therapist for anorexia and self-esteem issues; he thinks she's "weak and stupid." He still doesn't see anything wrong with his parenting techniques.

Oh, and I will say that I've known many Asian kids whose parents pushed them like this through high school. Then, when they got to college, where the parents weren't around all the time to exert their influence and control, the kids rebelled, got poor grades, and in some cases, even dropped out of college. I saw it happen a lot, especially in the super stressful, super competitive majors that Asian kids are pushed to go into, like medicine and engineering. Just because you push your child, you think they are ALL going to become doctors and lawyers?

I think it's a very fine line between overly pushing your child and encouraging him to the best he can be. Parenting is also not a one-size-fits-all approach. While this technique may work with a child who naturally compliant, I think it will eventually backfire with a highly willful, defiant kid. I'm still trying to find the right balance with my own parenting style, but I can guarantee you that based on my own similar upbringing, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER do that to my own children. At least, not if I want to see my grandkids someday! ;)

[salsah]

I agree with pp's who said that balance is key. I also agree that those of us who are overly concerned with our children's happiness and self-esteem are doing our children a disservice. We should prepare our children for the real world, teach them how to lose, how take criticism, how to make lemonade (no matter how hard it may be) when life gives them lemons.
I don't like the idea of having little league games where everyone wins and there are no losers. One day, in the real world, our children are going to win and one day they are going to lose. Instead of giving everyone a trophy, lets teach our kids how to be good sports. I want them to have pride in a job/effort well done, be humble if they win, and be happy for their opponent if they lose. I also don't like the idea of making everything fun. Life isn't always fun. Kids need to learn responsibility and need to be motivated by factors other than happiness and fun. One day they are going to have to earn a living, raise a child, and take on other responsibilities that are not always fun. In some cases, parents are trying so hard to make their kids happy that they just set their kids up for failure and create irresponsible, selfish people. (i think i may have already made this mistake with my kids.)

My parents, although white/western, pushed us. But they didn't care if we were the best (or maybe they knew that we couldn't "beat" our asian classmates :wink2:), they just cared that we tried, that we put in our best effort. I hope to do the same with my kids. but i know that finding the right balance is going to be difficult.

okay, let the flaming begin . . .

[infomama]

Not my vision of what parenting should be like. I would have hated growing up in an environment where my mother stood over me with arms crossed and demanded I play play play or called me things like garbage, stupid and worthless. Sounds awful.
We all want our children to succeed but at what price.

[salsah]

Also, as a Montessori parent, I don't believe that children have to be "forced" to work. The forcing is necessary if you're introducing something that they aren't developmentally ready for. If you catch a child in their sensitive period for a particular skill, you have a hard time getting them to stop their work. Just because it isn't worksheets and it isn't graded doesn't make it worthless.

an excellent point about the montessori method. as a montessori student and parent, i love that the montessori method instills independence, self-motivation and a desire to learn and seek knowledge. the individualized aspect eliminates the competition that is present in traditional classrooms. I could go on and on about the montessori method . . .

[gatorsmom]

I thought of some more examples that I grew up with. I had to finish everything on my plate whether I liked it or not, or whether I was full or not. I was underweight till my late 20s.

Interestingly enough, I was thinking about this recently. Both my grandmothers made their children clean their plates. Nowadays some people still do that, probably because of habit and it's what they grew up with. But the reasons why it was important to do that 40+ years ago, no longer hold. Over 40 years ago, it was more work and more time consuming to make healthy meals. There was no microwave. TV dinners, though probably as close to modern microwave meals as you could find then, still took a long time to cook in the oven. If children didn't eat all their meal, chances are very good they'd be hungry again before the next meal time. There just wasn;t time to stop what ever work the parent was doing and cook more food. Besides that, food storage just wasn't the same then. My mother used to tell about the "ice box" they had for storing some foods. But it was tiny and actually required the ice truck to make it's regular delivery. I imagine watching leftover food which was so time consuming to cook and was expensive to get, was hard to dump in the trash. There were some snacks, sure, but even we know they dont' hold a kid over for long. So, overfeeding them assured the parent they'd have kids that would be satiated longer, would go off and play longer, and the parent could work uninterrupted on whatever work needed to be done.


Both my parents grew up poor. My dad lived and worked on a dairy farm until he was in highschool when his parents sold the farm and moved to town. I don't think it would be an exageration to say my mother grew up in squalor. She had 9 siblings and they grew up in a 2 room house which was originally a garage. They had rats occasionally get in their house from the factory nearby. Both grandmothers worked hard to keep their kitchens clean so that rodents didn't get in or so that the family pets didn't get any food left on the counters. So, really, there were 3 meal times and you'd better get your food then because in between there just wasn't much of chance to eat. Everything nowadays is so completely different. The availability of food makes the "finish your plate" mentality not only obsolete but unhealthy.

Anyway, those were just my recent musings on that subject. ;)

[ezcc]

happy childhood memories:
playdates
sleepovers
school plays
watching cartoons w/siblings
choosing own classes like horseback riding, or russian language
getting good grades without a lot parent prodding (esp in college)

I suppose her methods are superior if your goal is to raise a concert pianist or a robot. Not my end goal, but to each their own I guess.

[niccig]

I suppose her methods are superior if your goal is to raise a concert pianist or a robot. Not my end goal, but to each their own I guess.

I agree. No definition there of what is success. This article is timely as we have DS's piano recital this afternoon. He does yamaha piano and our location is in an area with a large korean demographic. I know DS isn't as well prepared as he should be - we were away for 2 weeks with no piano, and there will be kids there that are very very good. DS is the youngest playing though. I'm OK with our 10mins practice most days (we miss some) and him being an average player. We want him to learn about music and enjoy playing rather than him being a concert pianist.

[BabyMine]

In M's karate class there is a Chinese couple that I am friends with. Their son is around 5 and a clown. They are the opposite of almost everything she wrote. They are extremely laid back and are late a lot and are never severely strict with him.

Another mother at the karate place is Indian and told me they are harder on their kids then Westerners are. I found that funny after she told me some of the stuff she lets her son do.

I know the title was to grab attention but why do we constantly keep pitting mothers against mothers? There are other issues that can come into play. What about comparing the structure of the governments or the educational systems.

I had a controlling upbringing and I am now trying to undo that so my children don't have to go through what I did.

[gatorsmom]

I haven't read many of the other replies here yet, though I plan to. I personally, wouldn't want a relationship with my child where I had to constantly shame, discipline, punish and belittle them. And it doesn't fit with my religious beliefs.

I do agree with her however about some things. There is nothing wrong with making a child work hard, teaching them to do things they don't like (like repetition as a teaching method) to achieve excelence. I do believe my children can achieve excellent grades. I know I am personnally of average intelligence, maybe less. But I learned early to work really hard to get excellent grades. I ended up achieving an 3.4 GPA in college and frankly, I"m proud of that considering I still had some fun and have great memories of college. I still ended up with an excellent job, and a fantastic mentor. Would Sophia have been proud of a lowly 3.4 GPA instead of 4.0 GPA? Or would she have felt shame?

[Kindra178]

I really appreciated the article. I liked especially how she, and the Chinese mother paradigm she created (whether real or imagined), really believed in their children, ie really believed that each child could be successful IF the mother AND child worked hard enough. Frankly, that's a hard way to parent. I sure thought of the article this am as my 4.5 year old struggled to get his sweater vest on for church today. He said he couldn't do it, couldn't find the arm, whining, upset. I told him I believed in him about 30 times, and that he could do it. It took a couple minutes of encouragement, but he did it fine. Obviously, it would have been much easier for me to throw it over his head (and less time consuming as I was rushing to get ready myself).

[infomama]

I liked especially how she, and the Chinese mother paradigm she created (whether real or imagined), really believed in their children, ie really believed that each child could be successful IF the mother AND child worked hard enough. Frankly, that's a hard way to parent.
I don't think her expectations (success, perfection) is based on 'I believe in you'. Way too warm and fuzzy. If her child couldn't get her tights on before church I'm get the impression that she would be standing over her calling her stupid and incompetent not lovingly encouraging her/being patient with her child.
I believe she believes that every child can achieve great things which is good but her technique is completely wack IMO.

[goldenpig]

Interesting article, thanks for posting. I think what's missing from her analysis is the definition of success. A lot of Chinese and Japanese schools have been revamping their "kill and drill" approach because, while it gives great test scores, it doesn't foster creative problem-solving and innovative thinking. In the information economy, those are the skills that are most valuable. The east Asian countries have been outscoring us for years on standardized tests, but if they've overtaken us in patent applications, that's a pretty recent development.

Also, as a Montessori parent, I don't believe that children have to be "forced" to work. The forcing is necessary if you're introducing something that they aren't developmentally ready for. If you catch a child in their sensitive period for a particular skill, you have a hard time getting them to stop their work. Just because it isn't worksheets and it isn't graded doesn't make it worthless.


an excellent point about the montessori method. as a montessori student and parent, i love that the montessori method instills independence, self-motivation and a desire to learn and seek knowledge. the individualized aspect eliminates the competition that is present in traditional classrooms. I could go on and on about the montessori method . . .

:yeahthat:
That's why we picked a Montessori-type preschool for DD. I wanted her to learn, but do it out of an internal motivation to learn. A lot of the "jobs" require concentration and persistence to do them correctly.

Now that I think about it more, I'm hardly "Asian" in my approach at all. I don't really force DD to do anything, and she never listens to me even if I try! :p

[mamicka]

I really appreciated the article. I liked especially how she, and the Chinese mother paradigm she created (whether real or imagined), really believed in their children, ie really believed that each child could be successful IF the mother AND child worked hard enough. Frankly, that's a hard way to parent. I sure thought of the article this am as my 4.5 year old struggled to get his sweater vest on for church today. He said he couldn't do it, couldn't find the arm, whining, upset. I told him I believed in him about 30 times, and that he could do it. It took a couple minutes of encouragement, but he did it fine. Obviously, it would have been much easier for me to throw it over his head (and less time consuming as I was rushing to get ready myself).

Yes, it's also a very hard way to be a child. I think the article was sickening & am not so sure it wasn't meant to be literal. It wouldn't be OK to treat a stranger like that, why is it OK to treat your child that way?

I was raised with a lot of shame & high expectations. The effects are long-lasting. I feel for her children & the others whose parents think this is such a good idea.

[maestramommy]

LOL! This article was posted on Dh's extended family yahoo group over the weekend. Dh was appalled, it made me ill. There isn't language strong enough to describe what I think of this writer's parenting style. Or the epithets that went through my mind last night when talking it over with Dh.

I seriously thought it was a joke. All the things she required (no playdates, piano and violin only), those are are part of a long list of things that circulated online among Asian Americans over 10 years. It was called, "You know you're Asian American if....." All the things were true, but became a joke, because it wasn't a joke growing up like that, and most of us had to become young adults before we realized there were others like us in the world. It almost became a point of camaraderie, the shared experience of this kind of childhood. I will say this writer took every stereotype, and put it on steroids. When she started to describe how she forced her daughter to learn a song on the piano I wanted to throw up.

There was only one point of agreement I took from this entire essay, and that is, often things aren't fun until you get good at them, and to get good at them you have to work hard, and most kids don't prefer to work hard, so it's the responsibility of the parents to require them to work hard. That is a general precept of parenting I have taken from my parents, and the same for Dh. How we will apply this precept I'm not sure, although I think we already are doing that in little ways. But holey moley, this woman really went overboard!

SIL said it make her feel so inadequate as a mother since she gives her kids free reign, more or less. And she couldn't even use being a WOHM as an excuse because the writer is a law prof at Yale. That made me even angrier, that for one moment it could make a perfectly fine mother feel like this "style" is some kind of guaranteed gold standard. Nauseating.

[mommylamb]

Yes, it's also a very hard way to be a child. I think the article was sickening & am not so sure it wasn't meant to be literal. It wouldn't be OK to treat a stranger like that, why is it OK to treat your child that way?

I was raised with a lot of shame & high expectations. The effects are long-lasting. I feel for her children & the others whose parents think this is such a good idea.

:yeahthat: I totally agree. I think this article was meant to be literal. Of course, I'm coming at this with a Western bias, but in my mind a parent's job is to help their child develop a conscience and work ethic of their own, not to be the child's conscience/work ethic.

[MartiesMom2B]

This reminds me of when my chinese mother lamented about my american thighs. From that I learned how to take dexatrim pills while saying under my breath that if she married someone chinese than i wouldn't have this problem. But see that I got off easy because I was allowed to get a B.

[maestramommy]

This reminds me of when my chinese mother lamented about my american thighs. From that I learned how to take dexatrim pills while saying under my breath that if she married someone chinese than i wouldn't have this problem. But see that I got off easy because I was allowed to get a B.

LOL! I tend to think that most Asian Americans grew up with some form of this type of parenting. I was allowed to get Bs too, but my piano childhood was only slightly milder than what was described in the article. Plus my mother thought nothing of saying things about my body and my sisters' bodies. She still doesn't!

[fivi2]

There was only one point of agreement I took from this entire essay, and that is, often things aren't fun until you get good at them, and to get good at them you have to work hard, and most kids don't prefer to work hard, so it's the responsibility of the parents to require them to work hard. That is a general precept of parenting I have taken from my parents, and the same for Dh. How we will apply this precept I'm not sure, although I think we already are doing that in little ways. But holey moley, this woman really went overboard!

.

I agree with this. I am not asian, but did grow up to some extent with parents who controlled via shame and expected us to always be at the top of the class. I agree that there are big problems with that method.

However, I also agree that there are problems with letting kids give up on things when they get hard (or giving trophies to everyone as pp mentioned). I think there needs to be a balance somehow. I do push my kids harder than it seems some do here, but I think I do it without shame or belittling... (who knows what my kids will say about me in 20 years!)

[mamicka]

There was only one point of agreement I took from this entire essay, and that is, often things aren't fun until you get good at them, and to get good at them you have to work hard, and most kids don't prefer to work hard, so it's the responsibility of the parents to require them to work hard.

Maybe some things. But geez, I'd have way less fun, probably none, if I was required to be good at things to enjoy them. Most things I enjoy I'm not particularly good at. Come to think of it I can't think of one thing I'm actually "good" at, but I enjoy life quite a bit. But I practiced the piano similarly to the children in the article & today I'm not very good at it at all. But I still enjoy it when I play & so does my audience.

[inmypjs]

I also think there is value to teaching children to have a strong work ethic. But I wonder if she is advocating for a child to work hard to be the best violin player he/she can be, or the best as compared to the other kids? I agree with the pp who stated that you certainly don't have to be the better than everyone at something to really love it. And I also agree that not everyone has the potential to be superior to their peers in some things.

The part of the article that caused me to reflect the most was her take on the underlying assumptions we make about our children's psyche and self esteem. She said that Western parents tend to view those as fragile and needing protection, while Asian parents view them as innately strong - ie they can take it. I can see her point about those differences, but I think a balance between them is best. I think children need to be pushed and challenged sometimes but not to the brink.

I work as a counselor in a college counseling center, and in the past few years I have noticed more and more young people of all races who feel tremendous pressure from their parents to achieve or be something. For some of them it's grades, for them of it's a particular profession. But they feel it and they are stressed! So many have told me how they'd just like to go to school to learn for themselves and to study what they want, instead of to earn the approval of their parents. Many of them feel their parents' love is conditional and depends on whether they reach the goals their parents have set for them. I don't want my kids to ever feel that way.

[Pyrodjm]

I guess it's about what you're idea of success it.If you need your kid to go to a prestigious college or be a musical genius, what she considers to be the "Chinese way" of parenting will get you there. IMO though, it's done for the parents not for the children.

I think there is more than one way to build a "successful" adult. I did not choose to become a parent in order to belittle, criticize ,insult, threaten, restrict and deprived my children constantly. I don't care what the goal is, it's just not worth it.

I want my children to be upstanding members of society, have a positive self-image, varied interests (that they have at least partially chosen for themselves) and happy memories of their childhood filled with the knowledge that their parents love them even if they aren't perfect. Now I also expect them to put forth effort in school, be respectful and loving to there family and friends and to keep out of trouble.

I grew up with many Asian children in my classes and know some of them as adults. Most have VERY strained relationships with their parents. Some rebelled wildly as teens/young adults.

It may not concern the author, but the emotional damage caused by being told that if you aren't the best and perfect in all you do, that you are nothing can last a lifetime.

[MacMacMoo]

I was raised like this... okay my mom was slightly better at creating a balance of this and what western parents do. But you know what I wouldn't trade it for the world. Just sent my mom an e-mail about how thankful I am for all her pushing and never giving up on me.

As far as raising SqueekMoo, I see a good bit of my mom coming out. Though since DH is not asian there is a great deal more playtime.

[maestramommy]

Maybe some things. But geez, I'd have way less fun, probably none, if I was required to be good at things to enjoy them. Most things I enjoy I'm not particularly good at. Come to think of it I can't think of one thing I'm actually "good" at, but I enjoy life quite a bit. But I practiced the piano similarly to the children in the article & today I'm not very good at it at all. But I still enjoy it when I play & so does my audience.

You are fortunate. I think I'm pretty good at piano, though not as good as I should be, considering my background. But this is one area of my life with so much baggage that I have a very ambivalent relationship with piano and making music in general. When Dh asked do I enjoy playing, I had to say I really don't know. I love music, and I love playing with my handbell choir. But whenever I have to practice piano for anything it doesn't feel like anything except work. Once my mom asked why don't I just play for the sheer enjoyment. Well, pretty much because I don't enjoy it, was my answer. Playing piano was never a choice, so whether I liked it or not never entered my head. It's the main reason why I haven't gotten on the ball with starting Dora on piano. I really do want all of my kids to play an instrument (any kind) competently enough to enjoy themselves. But I realize that takes work, and it's just a loaded issue for me. :rolleye0014:

And yet my upbringing, or my understanding of it, wasn't all terrible, because I love my parents very much, and we are quite close. And I know they are (finally!) very proud of me, though I might not present as a typical Asian success story.

[momof2girls]

As someone who is 1/2 Chinese, I found this article to be laughable (dad's Chinese mom was NOT a good one and couldn't have cared less about her kids!)
I do know lots of Asian (not just Chinese) familes that are over-achieveing, but I also know ones that are not.

[mamicka]

You are fortunate. I think I'm pretty good at piano, though not as good as I should be, considering my background. But this is one area of my life with so much baggage that I have a very ambivalent relationship with piano and making music in general. When Dh asked do I enjoy playing, I had to say I really don't know. I love music, and I love playing with my handbell choir. But whenever I have to practice piano for anything it doesn't feel like anything except work. Once my mom asked why don't I just play for the sheer enjoyment. Well, pretty much because I don't enjoy it, was my answer. Playing piano was never a choice, so whether I liked it or not never entered my head. It's the main reason why I haven't gotten on the ball with starting Dora on piano. I really do want all of my kids to play an instrument (any kind) competently enough to enjoy themselves. But I realize that takes work, and it's just a loaded issue for me. :rolleye0014:

And yet my upbringing, or my understanding of it, wasn't all terrible, because I love my parents very much, and we are quite close. And I know they are (finally!) very proud of me, though I might not present as a typical Asian success story.

I think I enjoy it because I'm not striving for perfection, KWIM? No matter what they did, my parents couldn't make me into a perfectionist. :p

[maestramommy]

I think I enjoy it because I'm not striving for perfection, KWIM? No matter what they did, my parents couldn't make me into a perfectionist. :p

Okay, that statement just made me want to bawl. And give you a huge hug!:heartbeat:

[twowhat?]

I actually think that a lot of Chinese parents do it because 1) they want to live vicariously through their children, 2) pride and bragging rights.

[mamicka]

Just saw this posted somewhere else. Response to Chua. Haven't read it yet.
http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

[Mommy_Again]

The very last paragraph of her article: "Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away."

I can still achieve everything in sentence #2 by doing what's described in sentence #1. How sad for her children that she thinks the two are mutually exclusive.

There's no doubt that this parenting style has created many "successful" people, at least on paper. But I have to believe there is an ugly downside to it. You can't tell me that ALL Asian kids treated like this turn out at the top of their class (academic or otherwise), without any ugly repercussions.

I know this has been discussed in previous threads before, but the whole concept of Asian kids "owing" their parents and being expected to support them throughout the rest of their life, after they have grown and have their own families - it just saddens and disgusts me. I know this is part of the overall culture that has been in effect far, far longer than I can trace back my family tree...but it just seems beyond selfish and oppressive.

[maestramommy]

Just saw this posted somewhere else. Response to Chua. Haven't read it yet.
http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

Wow, that was great! As a music teacher I'm nodding my head all the way:tongue5:, but as a mother I'm interested in the next installment. Thanks for posting!

[Globetrotter]

We all want our children to succeed but at what price.

Exactly. I feel very sad reading posts from those of you who have gone through this type of upbringing (hellokitty and wencit come to mind :hug:).

Not all Asians are like this! We certainly aren't, but that is very much a reaction to what we see around us.

We live in a heavily Asian area and dd has told me all sorts of things, like kids getting grounded for getting a B, crying because they will get spanked for getting a B+, forging signatures so their parents wouldn't see their test scores (this I heard from a teacher, btw - a group of kids did this). We have rampant cheating - I don't know if this is standard across the country, but from first grade onwards they put up dividers between the kids so they can't cheat during tests. In our old school, the teachers informed me that math tests were not returned because.. get this... parents copied them for younger siblings! There was a scandal where high school kids broke hacked into the school computers and altered grades. Seriously.

I know kids who study the next year's curriculum over the summer. i saw one of the moms (a friend of mine!) distributing the textbooks to her friends in June. Why? so they can ace the tests the next year. Kids attend after school tutoring, and then parents wonder why they are bored when they have to do the same work the next day at school! We know kids who have flunked out of college because of burnout. Parents demand excess homework, but the teachers give in! Heck, dd was beginning to lose her love for learning amidst all this pressure, so we moved her to a new school! I wish I was making all this up because it is rather depressing.

Check out Race To Nowhere! (the movie) This issue is getting more attention and some parents I know are slowly coming around and realizing that the kids need time to play, explore and have fun! My kids can learn more from creating a village out of citibloks or putting on an impromptu play than doing yet another worksheet. Like PP said, the emphasis should be on problem solving rather than rote learning (no worries - during Chinese school, there is a one hour session on critical thinking :)).

Having said all this, I understand where it comes from. Asian countries are highly populated so competition is intense, beyond anything we see here (though the UC system is getting there!). In India and other places, after school tutoring has been the norm for years. That's why, when Bill Gates says we need to look to Asia to see what they are doing and replicate that, I just have to wonder if he understands the implications!

[goldenpig]

Just saw this posted somewhere else. Response to Chua. Haven't read it yet.
http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

Great article! Totally agree!


The very last paragraph of her article: "Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away."

I can still achieve everything in sentence #2 by doing what's described in sentence #1. How sad for her children that she thinks the two are mutually exclusive.


Agree with this too.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

I enjoyed this rebuttal:
Authoritarian Parenting (http://academicsfreedom.blogspot.com/2011/01/article-by-amy-chua-professor-at-yale.html) by an engineering professor at USC.

My husband, who is Chinese, said that Ms. Chua is an embarassment to Chinese.

This also seeems a bit outdated, pre one-child policy. Or maybe it coexists with Little Emperors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Emperor_Syndrome)? I thought kids in China were spoiled now. Perhaps that's a stereotype as well.

Chinese economy is booming, yes, but isn't a big factor in that the factory workers working for artificially supressed wages (i.e. tying yuan to the dollar)? Not because everyone is an engineer, doctor, or lawyer.

Anyways, I was really turned off by this article. She sounds horrible.

[supercalifragilous]

Forgive me if it seems inappropriate, but I laughed throughout that entire article. I totally took it as tongue-in-cheek, like one of those articles that only a person in those shoes could write about and be related to by those who lived a similar upbringing. I laughed and many times though, "Me too!!"

I think the most profound thing in the article was where she wrote: "They [Chinese parents] assume strength, not fragility." I feel that strikes the nail on the head - if you aren't born strong, you will learn to be; you have no choice. There is NO CODDLING WHATSOEVER. I think that's where my inner confidence comes from - because my parents instilled in me that I was strong, I can always "take it." I suppose their criticisms made me so callous (aka "strong") that very little offends me now. My self-esteem is pretty solid.

This article probably will bond those who had a similar upbringing, similar to how comedians point out the stereotypical cultural differences that "Westerners" may feel horrified and offended about, but those of us who lived through it can look back and laugh together.

The Asian parenting technique doesn't work for every child, though. It would never work for DD, as she is SUPERsensitive and way too soft. (She is also half, not that I think that has anything to do with it.) My parents were also not as hard on my brother since I was the firstborn, and I firmly believe he did not turn out well because they went too soft on him. Maybe they spent all their energies trying to "break" me! LOL

[twowhat?]

This thread is just fascinating. I disagree with the author's take that the reasons for her parenting strategy are to "force" her child to learn that they can accomplish anything. I think a lot of it is so that she can show off her daughter at piano recitals, and brag to her friends about her grades, or that she is going to med school, or that she is an MD (not just ANY doctor...an MD!!!)

I know so many Asians who have a huge beautiful expensive house...but no furniture. It's all just for show.

And add me to the list of people who have long-term damaging effects from this. My parents weren't as extreme as the author, but the flavor was the same. Putting an article at my place on the dining table about a girl who got a perfect score on her SATs the day after I got my mediocre SAT score of just over 1100 - yeah, that did a lot for my confidence. And might I add that upon being forced to take it again, my score only went up about 100 points. Yup, far from perfect!!!

I am lucky in that I do now have a wonderful relationship with my parents. and they have totally mellowed out (i.e. finally accepted that YES I am a doctor but NO I am not an MD and never will be). But I would never wish upon any child the kind of upbringing I had.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

Oh wow, thought this was really interesting... from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Chua

She has three daughters, Sophia, Louisa and third unknown name with Down Syndrome who holds two International Special Olympics gold medals in swimming
ETA - This is wrong, it is wikipedia, afterall. It's seems to be her sister, the third sister, who has down syndrome.

ETA... more interesting facts, her dad is a EECS Professor at Berkeley. I went to grad school in that department, so that piqued my interest.

[supercalifragilous]

It's exactly this kind of tongue-in-cheek relatability that makes this comic strip so funny. We 2nd generation kids were taught this way by our 1st-gen parents:

NO IMPERFECTION:
http://www.angrylittlegirls.com/images/comics/2006/060327.jpg

NO FAT:
http://www.angrylittlegirls.com/images/comics/2006/060828.jpg

NO LIFE:
http://www.angrylittlegirls.com/images/comics/2005/050606.jpg

NO BOYS:
http://www.angrylittlegirls.com/images/comics/2009/090330hickorydickorydock.jpg

[pinay]

I saw this article linked by several FB friends yesterday, so I've had a little time to think about it. I grew up in a Filipino household that was not nearly as strict as the type she describes as "Chinese parenting", but the high expectations and the verbal abuse were certainly present during my childhood. Many of my best friends are Chinese and had parents who essentially used Chua's model, and while they are all professionally successful, they all still struggle in their relationships with their parents.

I think for me, that's the worry I have with this type of parenting- the relationship between parent & child(ren) isn't going to be based on love, but fear. As an adult, I love my parents but I don't feel close to them. They still feel it necessary to comment on my weaknesses as they see them, whether it comes to parenting or body image or career choice. It's terribly frustrating and hurtful, and although as an adult I can shake it off after a while, it's demoralizing as a child to live with that type of constant criticism.

It seems like with everything else, there's got to be some sort of middle ground that works. I can't imagine denying my DD the opportunity to have sleepovers or to pursue her interests. But I do see value in encouraging her to work hard at something and not give up when she's struggling.

[kijip]

Ok, frankly I think it is abusive.

I instill a strong work ethic and persistence when things are hard, I feel I have high standards (for example refusing to spell a word more than once, and pointing him to his own self made dictionary) but verbally berating child like that over a music piece is abusive even if the outcome is considered desirable. And the loving cuddling between mom and daughter afterwards? Well, in the abuse cycle that is called the honeymoon period. The abuser basks in the reassurances of the abused person, consoling themselves that they did nothing wrong, as the the abused person tries to ingratiate themselves to the abuser so as to not be abused again.

[kozachka]

our parents really pushed us academically. A's were expected, B's were not acceptable.

I do think there is something to be gained by having high expectations and pushing your kids to persist/work hard. But I don't believe in tearing them down if they don't meet your goals. The tactics she described in the article really made me squirm.

I thought this was an interesting paragraph:
"Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't."

I am not Chinese, or even Asian, I am Russian, but these are the same expectations that my parents had for me as well. I agree with goldenpig. My parent pushed me by having high expectations for me and by encouraging persistence and hard work. They did it because they knew I was capable of high achievements and always told me so. They did not tear me down, positive reinforcement and challenge have always worked best for me. They did hit me/put in the corner and my mom swore at me, so I try to raise DS similarly minus those things.

[citymama]

Amy's kids are welcome to whoop my kids' asses in school.

My (Asian) parents and (non-Asian) in-laws somehow managed to raise high-achieving kids without humiliating or coercing them. In fact - a radical approach to parenting I don't think Amy is familiar with - my siblings and I had parents who inculcated a love of learning, instead of pressure, helped us foster our own internal drive to succeed, and showed us unconditional love and support. I was not an absolute straight A student but close. I never aspired to teach at Yale, or measured success in that way, and neither did my folks. And yes, I am extremely close to them and fully intend to cate for them as they age if that becomes necessary.

The borderline abusive parts are disturbing, although not unfamiliar to me as I grew up with many kids pushed in similar ways. But the most disturbing part to me was the sheer arrogance of it - the claim that she had found the best way to parent and no other paths could lead to similar benefits without the costs. That superior attitude is all too familiar to me as well, and something I remember from some of the kids I knew who were most pressured by their parents. The brain washing is insidious.

[citymama]

deleted - repeat post

[m448]

Ok, frankly I think it is abusive.

I instill a strong work ethic and persistence when things are hard, I feel I have high standards (for example refusing to spell a word more than once, and pointing him to his own self made dictionary) but verbally berating child like that over a music piece is abusive even if the outcome is considered desirable. And the loving cuddling between mom and daughter afterwards? Well, in the abuse cycle that is called the honeymoon period. The abuser basks in the reassurances of the abused person, consoling themselves that they did nothing wrong, as the the abused person tries to ingratiate themselves to the abuser so as to not be abused again.

This a million times as well as what sillygirl said. Why would I want to handicap my children's ability to form healthy relationships from the get go? Do some people emerge from this type of situation and heal? Sure. Yet some others hop from an abusive family of origin to an abusive or emotionally unhealthy marriage as well as boundaryless friendships because the foundation of their relational ability is offkilter.

[egoldber]

Wow. I was away this weekend and just got a chance to read that article. I also believe that some of the things she described in that article are abuse, plain and simple.

However, where I personally struggle is with that balance of how to encourage hard work and persistence. We are facing this now with older DD and the viola. This year she started piano and viola. She loves the piano and runs to practice it. But she hates the viola. It is very hard for her. They are told to practice 75 minutes a week, which is not really that much, but she find that number to be very stressful. Whereas she probably practices more than that with the piano, but the teacher only said "practice these pieces 3-5 times over the week". She has asked to not do the viola anymore. Honestly, I couldn't care less if she plays the viola or not, but I hate for her to quit just because it's hard for her. We are still negotiating this and figuring it out.

[brittone2]

Trying to type with baby in ergo on my back jumping around...

So many of the points I'd like to make have already been made. We homeschool, and I don't plan to grade my kids. Not because I am trying to shield their self confidence and protect their self esteem, but because I want my children to hone their internal motivation to succeed. I will certainly provide feedback about their skills, etc. but we won't focus on grades.

Dh and I also want to foster an environment where it is okay to fail. I think even the best students often make very "safe" choices in an effort to avoid failure. They write about a "safe" (perhaps easier to conquer but less thought provoking?) topic for their term paper, they pick the more straightforward science fair project, etc. kwim? What happens if we free up our children to safely fail sometimes? I think that is the heart of innovation and invention...the greatest inventors in the last centuries have tried and failed many times in order to produce their "successes."

I want my kids to experiment with taking the less academically safe option sometimes. If As are the focus, I think many academically inclined kids learn to avoid "risk".

So while I don't plan to grade my children in our homeschool environment, it isn't because I am shielding their self confidence. I want their successes and failures to both be a valued part of the learning experience.

[egoldber]

If As are the focus, I think many academically inclined kids learn to avoid "risk".

Exactly. This is very much what happened to me as a child.

Going back to our viola saga LOL, older DD had a complete and total meltdown over it last week. (FYI, strings is a graded subject for her in school this year.) I sat her down and told her the only thing that we thought was important was for her to learn to play the viola and like it. If she didn't get an A because she didn't practice X minutes, then we didn't care. She was incredulous. And we have NEVER EVER emphasized or even really talked about grades with her at all. It's just something that she has internalized.

But OTOH, I told her that if she didn't ever practice the viola, then she also wouldn't ever get good enough to really like it. So we agreed that she would practice without the (self imposed by her) pressure of timing it for awhile and see how it went.

[fedoragirl]

I am going to stir the pot here. I think a lot of parents are feeling defensive after reading this article. I came away from it thinking about how many things she's doing right, and really, why is it that Asian kids do fare better than their Western counterparts in the world? I ignored the music parts, etc.
It is acknowledged by the immigrant community that Americans (not all Westerners) have more mental issues than most other people. I have heard this in college, in the work place, and at several non-Western events. Maybe it's diagnosed more, I say.
As I wrote earlier, a balance of tough love and showing unconditional love must be made.
As a teacher, I have encountered numerous episodes of the latter in our society and stereotypically, the tough love concept appears in the Asian community. I have parents tell me that if their kid gets a D, then they will celebrate since they didn't even graduate high school. I have parents who tell me that asking their child why they didn't submit their homework is deragotary. I have encountered parents who take their children out for a movie and a manicure if their kids got suspended for a day. I have parents and a school system that is opting out of giving their children F's or 0s because that hurts their self-esteem. Is that really preparing a confident, self-assured, prepared work force and society, or is it creating a sense of entitlement?
I have met and know a lot of Asian kids who are not smart, but they are willing to put in the effort to get better at it. I know a lot of American kids who are extremely smart but don't do a thing in school, and their parents either ask, "Well, what can I do?" or it will happen when it does. There is a lot of antagonism against teachers because they try to instill a work ethic when the parents' work ethics are dismal, to say the least. They'd much rather show what great "friends" they are to their children. This is when I completely believe in the "Chinese parenting style." Again, this may be contrary to a lot of experiences on this board, but this is what a LOT of parents out there do.

[m448]

I am going to stir the pot here. I think a lot of parents are feeling defensive after reading this article. I came away from it thinking about how many things she's doing right, and really, why is it that Asian kids do fare better than their Western counterparts in the world? I ignored the music parts, etc.
It is acknowledged by the immigrant community that Americans (not all Westerners) have more mental issues than most other people. I have heard this in college, in the work place, and at several non-Western events. Maybe it's diagnosed more, I say.
As I wrote earlier, a balance of tough love and showing unconditional love must be made.
As a teacher, I have encountered numerous episodes of the latter in our society and stereotypically, the tough love concept appears in the Asian community. I have parents tell me that if their kid gets a D, then they will celebrate since they didn't even graduate high school. I have parents who tell me that asking their child why they didn't submit their homework is deragotary. I have encountered parents who take their children out for a movie and a manicure if their kids got suspended for a day. I have parents and a school system that is opting out of giving their children F's or 0s because that hurts their self-esteem. Is that really preparing a confident, self-assured, prepared work force and society, or is it creating a sense of entitlement?
I have met and know a lot of Asian kids who are not smart, but they are willing to put in the effort to get better at it. I know a lot of American kids who are extremely smart but don't do a thing in school, and their parents either ask, "Well, what can I do?" or it will happen when it does. There is a lot of antagonism against teachers because they try to instill a work ethic when the parents' work ethics are dismal, to say the least. They'd much rather show what great "friends" they are to their children. This is when I completely believe in the "Chinese parenting style." Again, this may be contrary to a lot of experiences on this board, but this is what a LOT of parents out there do.

what you've described as poor parenting is non-parenting and crosses cultural lines more thaan you know. I'm a first generation immigrant and will say that mental health issues are just as common in immigrant popations although there's a stigma associated with it as well as less resources to acquire help.

[mamicka]

I am going to stir the pot here. I think a lot of parents are feeling defensive after reading this article.

Hmmm. I guess it may seem that way to someone depending on their perspective. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I'm not defensive, I'm horrified. I don't think her parenting style is successful - I don't define success the same as she does. She seems a bit deranged to me, honestly, almost maniacal. If that's considered "normal" in Asian culture then I'm not surprised that Americans are considered to have more mental illness - we call it what it is & what she is is not mentally stable. IMO of course. :)

[mamicka]

what you've described as poor parenting is non-parenting and crosses cultural lines more thaan you know. I'm a first generation immigrant and will say that mental health issues are just as common in immigrant popations although there's a stigma associated with it as well as less resources to acquire help.

Yup, I've got many relatives in the old country who rant about all the mental illness in America but can't seem to see the lunatics in their own midst.

[egoldber]

I agree with the PP. There is a HUGE difference between permissive parenting and authoritative parenting (parenting with love and limits). And mental health concerns like depression and anxiety are HUGELY underdiagnosed in general, but especially in minority racial and ethnic groups.

[m448]

Random FYI: my poor spelling is not due to my immigrant roots but the darn "smart"phone. ;)

[brittone2]

I agree with the PP. There is a HUGE difference between permissive parenting and authoritative parenting (parenting with love and limits).

:yeahthat: And Authoritarian parenting (vs. authoritative) doesn't necessarily work well to foster the intrinsic desire to work hard, do the right thing, etc.

If you have an authoritarian parent compelling you to achieve, etc. then what happens when you head off to college or into young adulthood and that parent has less influence? Will the intrinsic desire to achieve or do the right thing still be there? Or will the authoritative parent continue to insert themselves into their adult child's life demanding ongoing "success" and "achievement" (narrowly defined by grades, prestige, etc)? Clearly that's quite problematic as well.

[Ceepa]

I think there's a balance. Culturally many Asian families measure success in parenting as having a child who becomes a success by societal standards. These families compete to see who is producing the child who can contribute more to the common good and that competitiveness ironically becomes very individually focused with each child being pressured to be the best.

In this country I think there is a tendency to swing the other way. Many kids are raised to seek out individual happiness and satisfaction without considering how to selflessly work toward a goal that may have no individual reward. There is a growing intolerance for "feeling bad" for any reason. We build supports and rush in to save a child from having any kind of - what we may deem - negative experience for fear of subjecting them to longterm damage.

Perhaps the best of both worlds is somewhere between.

Just my thoughts.

[fedoragirl]

Exactly what Ceepa said. We need to have a balance. I believe that both cultures are extremes to an extent.

[egoldber]

I guess what I really dislike about the article is the false dichotomy that it implies. I just get from her that if you're not chaining your kid to the piano then you're coddling them into self indulgent medocrity.

[brittone2]

I guess what I really dislike about the article is the false dichotomy that it implies. I just get from her that if you're not chaining your kid to the piano then you're coddling them into self indulgent medocrity.

Yes! That's what bothers me the most about the whole bit. It isn't a choice between "being a friend" to your child vs. being a relentless driver of a parent. That balance really is authoritative parenting more or less IMO. Authoritative parenting isn't a permissive, everyone-needs-to-feel-good-about-themselves all the time approach.

[mamicka]

I guess what I really dislike about the article is the false dichotomy that it implies. I just get from her that if you're not chaining your kid to the piano then you're coddling them into self indulgent medocrity.
Yes. this

[Kindra178]

One more thing to add. The author is a law professor, an extremely, extremely tough job to get. Moreover, she is a law professor at Yale, which is even harder job to get (almost impossible). To use the term made popular by Malcolm Gladwell, the author is an outlier. Surely she had opportunities available to her that enabled her to get where she is, but she gave up a ton personally in order to achieve that level of success. She just wants to instill the same thing in her daughters, and I am ok with that.

[brittone2]

One more thing to add. The author is a law professor, an extremely, extremely tough job to get. Moreover, she is a law professor at Yale, which is even harder job to get (almost impossible). To use the term made popular by Malcolm Gladwell, the author is an outlier. Surely she had opportunities available to her that enabled her to get where she is, but she gave up a ton personally in order to achieve that level of success. She just wants to instill the same thing in her daughters, and I am ok with that.

I wonder what her feelings would be if her daughters go on to a job that isn't as outwardly prestigious? What if they want to be social workers or teachers or any number of other wonderful professions? Or a SAHM? Will she feel they failed? Will she feel she failed as a mother? Will she feel they squandered away all the hard work *she* put into them as a mother? Will she be happy if they find what they feel is their genuine calling in life, even if it doesn't align with her definition of success?

[smilequeen]

I am going to stir the pot here. I think a lot of parents are feeling defensive after reading this article........It is acknowledged by the immigrant community that Americans (not all Westerners) have more mental issues than most other people. I have heard this in college, in the work place, and at several non-Western events. Maybe it's diagnosed more, I say.

I don't know if I see a lot of defensiveness here. The treatment she describes gives me a visceral reaction, and probably many others as well, that anyone could treat a child that way under the guise of parental love. It makes me want to scoop up her girls and give them a hug. It also reminds me of where my DH came from and what he's fighting against and trying not to do to our own children.

As for mental illness, it might be easy for the immigrant community to try and forget that asian countries have the HIGHEST suicide rates in the world. Their high pressure style just might have something to do with that.

My DH was educated primarily in Hong Kong (through age 12). At age 4ish it was decided that he was destined for the elite and for the duration of his education he was tested over and over and over again to make sure he still belonged on that track. To fall off of that track would have been devastating for his whole family. Is that fair pressure to put on a little kid? He has a work ethic for sure. But it makes it harder for him to balance family with needing to work harder and harder. Yet, he's been here long enough to feel like he needs to make actually BEING WITH his kids more of a priority than his parents ever did. We had disagreements and still do sometimes r.e. me staying home with his kids b/c full time nannies and maids and moms and dads who were never around is what is totally normal to him. And at the same time, he can see the positive to having us around more...

However, I still do believe that this author's description of Chinese parenting is on the extreme side, and that there generally IS at least a little more balance in most Chinese families than what she depicts. Heck, my DH can't play a single musical instrument ;)

[codex57]

However, I still do believe that this author's description of Chinese parenting is on the extreme side, and that there generally IS at least a little more balance in most Chinese families than what she depicts. Heck, my DH can't play a single musical instrument ;)

That's why, like a PP, I laughed my head off when I read the article and some of the responses. She's like me and my crazy analogies. Half serious, half tongue in cheek. Like certain posts of mine, I'm sure she wrote that and carefully selected her examples for maximum provocativeness and to incite dialogue. It's not like they hand out a manual to Chinese (altho there are a lot of similarities with other Asian parents) moms on how to parent. It's a fine line to be sure, but there are obviously going to be variances. Even the over the top parents aren't always over the top in everything. However, they are frequently over the top so those of us who recognize those parents (and possibly even suffered through some of it) can laugh about it. It's like soldiers reminiscing and laughing about the horrors of boot camp.

That's why the PP who mentioned feeling horrible about the pressure on kids to take care of parents was funny to me. It cuts both ways. Yes, the parents put extraordinary pressure on the kids and expect to be taken care of when old. However, these same parents are the ones who will spend hours with the kids and even when they get older, give up retirement in order to buy the kids a house so that they get started in life as easily as possible. You have to take in everything. The culture, etc when reading this article. It's kinda like the stereotype New England WASPy culture. Looks cold and demanding but doesn't mean the families don't get that love is behind it. Just expressed differently than is typical in the current Western culture.

I'm not saying there aren't a lot of Asian parents who went too far. I don't mean to embarass her or anything, but HelloKitty has described her parents to me with some detail. While I laugh at the article, I'm pretty horrified (not necessarily shocked tho) at what she had to go through. I went to schools that gave me a pretty wide view of Asian parenting and how the kids took it and how far some parents go. She got pretty shafted on the parental thing.

Still, I dunno how the article will help but I suppose any discussion of a culture that produces so many high achievers is a good thing. I mean, you don't have to follow her model exactly. Discussion would be good to pick out good elements or perhaps figure out why certain "extreme" methods of hers worked and figure out how to minimize the bad in them.

[Jenny_A]

It's NO BOYS:
http://www.angrylittlegirls.com/images/comics/2009/090330hickorydickorydock.jpg

THAT'S hysterical! :hysterical:

[Globetrotter]

Mental issues are swept under the rug in many immigrant communities, much to the detriment of the families involved. I personally know many families that have suffered with dysfunction due to undiagnosed or untreated mental health issues.

I think, IRT schooling, the key is balance. I have high expectations, BUT I don't think that drilling or excessive homework is the answer. I also don't think that affection or understanding will hinder my kid's success. In fact, I think my kids succeed in life because they feel secure at home.

[kijip]

Mental issues are swept under the rug in many immigrant communities, much to the detriment of the families involved. I personally know many families that have suffered with dysfunction due to undiagnosed or untreated mental health issues.

I think, IRT schooling, the key is balance. I have high expectations, BUT I don't think that drilling or excessive homework is the answer. I also don't think that affection or understanding will hinder my kid's success. In fact, I think my kids succeed in life because they feel secure at home.

Yeah, IMO Westerners don't have mental issues that other people don't, we just have more treatments and acceptance of them. While this may lead to some issues in and of itself, the fact that immigrants are less likely to seek mental health treatment does not mean that they don't have any mental health issues. The youth suicide rate in some countries is proof enough to me that there may be health issues associated with the sort of pressure this article advocates.

[lovebebes]

i really enjoyed reading everyone's responses here.

I was raised in a very different culture from this one-and my parents were strict with education etc yet creativity was encouraged, i always picked myself the things i did like activities etc. and i felt very supported and loved at all times. so yes, balance is everything.

i do sometimes feel that some parents here in the US are not strict enough with some things. dont flame.

[94bruin]

I know this has been discussed in previous threads before, but the whole concept of Asian kids "owing" their parents and being expected to support them throughout the rest of their life, after they have grown and have their own families - it just saddens and disgusts me. I know this is part of the overall culture that has been in effect far, far longer than I can trace back my family tree...but it just seems beyond selfish and oppressive.

I know I'm coming very late to this discussion, but I have to add my 2 cents.

Chinese people have a very strong culture of respect for elders. In my own family, my parents sacrificed a lot to help me get to where I am. To help them when they possibly need help is one way to repay them for everything they've done. However, there is nothing of this "owing" my parents anything. In fact, my mom refuses my help in many situations where I think she needs my help. She has stated many times that she does not expect me or my brother to help her when she is older (well, she is older, these statements were made some years ago.) However, we *want* to help her because they are our parents, and where would we be without them? It's a different mindset, but I don't think it's something to be disgusted about. Yes, there are some parents that think that their children "owe" them, but that is not all Chinese parents. It's more about respecting those who came before you.

On the other hand, you hear of how the elderly in the West are often forgotten -left alone in nursing homes. That is something I feel very sad about. Chinese children often would rather have their parents live with them vs putting them in a nursing home. Sacrificing for the parents, the same way the parents did for the children. It's just the way love is shown for each other. It's not disgusting - it's just different.


Mental issues are swept under the rug in many immigrant communities, much to the detriment of the families involved. I personally know many families that have suffered with dysfunction due to undiagnosed or untreated mental health issues.

I think, IRT schooling, the key is balance. I have high expectations, BUT I don't think that drilling or excessive homework is the answer. I also don't think that affection or understanding will hinder my kid's success. In fact, I think my kids succeed in life because they feel secure at home.

Not only mental issues - I think anything that portrays weakness is swept under the rug. My own brother had testicular cancer, but for whatever weird reason, my mom did not want to disclose this to any of our relatives. Maybe it's because he was the first case in the family to be diagnosed with cancer. Since then, one of her BILs has been diagnosed with stomach cancer. Maybe if my brother's cancer had come more recently, my mom would have felt different about disclosing my brother's illness.

Another point of weakness in their eyes is if, God forbid, one of their children turns out to be gay. A great friend of ours, he's such a great guy, but his mom once told him that she regretted having him. Can you believe a mom saying that to her child?


In any case, balance is certainly the key. My only worry is that since both DH and I are Chinese, we are going to fall back on what we know best - ie how we were raised. Drilling and drilling and drilling (Dh had to spend hours practicing his handwriting when he was 5/6 - he and his brother have the neatest handwriting I know of for any person, let alone, two physicians.)

We've spent hours thinking about how to raise our daughters - knowing that drilling them can get them far in life, but not necessarily let them achieve true greatness, which we believe comes from creativity. Everyday, we struggle with letting our daughter fail at things vs dictating to her what needs to be done to get things done correctly. It's definitely more a struggle for DH, so I often have to pull his aside to remind him that failing is okay. But that is not to say that we'll let our daughter get away with being lazy or not living up to her potential. We want our daughters to work hard, but not to the point where it become detrimental. It's definitely a work in progress.


I think of all the Asians who are in professional schools (or kids who were pushed by their parents) vs the ones who ended up there on their own accord. In my own experience, the ones who are their on their own accord are waaay more happy than those who were pushed (me being a prime example.) I definitely envy those people who have found success on their own terms. I envy the parents who have figured out how to be supportive and raise happy & successful children.


One last thing - these Asian parents who don't let their children date are always the first to complain when their child isn't married the minute he or she is out of school. My mom's master plan for me (no joke) was to go to medical school, not dating anyone along the way, and then poof, get married when I completed my education. Much to my mom's dismay, I did not go to medical school, and I started dating way before completing my education.

[maestramommy]

Hey there! Another Melinda:jammin:!

I agree about the culture of family for Asians. While it has its own issues and pitfalls, I DO feel responsible for my parents, who sacrificed a lot, including to a large extent, their retirement, in order to give me and my siblings opportunities and education to succeed. Dh and I talk a lot about what we would do if/when it came to the point where they couldn't live on their own anymore. It helps to have a partner with the same family background; there are a lot of things you don't have to explain because they just get it.

However, I also agree about the mental issues thing. One thing that is still not widely accepted in Asian families is autism. I have a friend who discovered that his son has Aspergers. His wife blamed his family (because nothing like that happened in her family) and actually left him. Some couples will try to hide it for years from extended family, because they know what will happen if people find out. It makes dealing with it very difficult. And like 94bruin said, being gay is another area that is not talked about, esp. if you also happen to be Christian as well as Asian. My lil bro is gay and it took my parents a long time to accept it. I think my mom still cherishes a dim hope he will change. I don't think they've told any of their friends. I don't even know if their siblings know except for my mom's twin sister.

In Asian culture there is this expectation for families to be a certain way, and if you don't fall into that there is some feeling of shame. Thankfully, living in this country for decades has dissipated that somewhat, but my parents live in SoCal, where the Taiwanese population is still heavily first generation immigrant, so attitudes are slower to change. However, the upside is that they are still largely concerned with survival, and many of them are thrilled that their kids go to college, find a good job and can support their own families. Reaching levels like the writer of the article is a pipe dream. In fact, one weird thing we discovered when we moved out there is that our family was the most highly educated, some at name brand schools. If we had stayed in the midwest, we would been among the small fry because none of us became doctors, engineers, or lawyers.

[hellokitty]

I know I'm coming very late to this discussion, but I have to add my 2 cents.

Chinese people have a very strong culture of respect for elders. In my own family, my parents sacrificed a lot to help me get to where I am. To help them when they possibly need help is one way to repay them for everything they've done. However, there is nothing of this "owing" my parents anything. In fact, my mom refuses my help in many situations where I think she needs my help. She has stated many times that she does not expect me or my brother to help her when she is older (well, she is older, these statements were made some years ago.) However, we *want* to help her because they are our parents, and where would we be without them? It's a different mindset, but I don't think it's something to be disgusted about. Yes, there are some parents that think that their children "owe" them, but that is not all Chinese parents. It's more about respecting those who came before you.

On the other hand, you hear of how the elderly in the West are often forgotten -left alone in nursing homes. That is something I feel very sad about. Chinese children often would rather have their parents live with them vs putting them in a nursing home. Sacrificing for the parents, the same way the parents did for the children. It's just the way love is shown for each other. It's not disgusting - it's just different.



Not only mental issues - I think anything that portrays weakness is swept under the rug. My own brother had testicular cancer, but for whatever weird reason, my mom did not want to disclose this to any of our relatives. Maybe it's because he was the first case in the family to be diagnosed with cancer. Since then, one of her BILs has been diagnosed with stomach cancer. Maybe if my brother's cancer had come more recently, my mom would have felt different about disclosing my brother's illness.

Another point of weakness in their eyes is if, God forbid, one of their children turns out to be gay. A great friend of ours, he's such a great guy, but his mom once told him that she regretted having him. Can you believe a mom saying that to her child?


In any case, balance is certainly the key. My only worry is that since both DH and I are Chinese, we are going to fall back on what we know best - ie how we were raised. Drilling and drilling and drilling (Dh had to spend hours practicing his handwriting when he was 5/6 - he and his brother have the neatest handwriting I know of for any person, let alone, two physicians.)

We've spent hours thinking about how to raise our daughters - knowing that drilling them can get them far in life, but not necessarily let them achieve true greatness, which we believe comes from creativity. Everyday, we struggle with letting our daughter fail at things vs dictating to her what needs to be done to get things done correctly. It's definitely more a struggle for DH, so I often have to pull his aside to remind him that failing is okay. But that is not to say that we'll let our daughter get away with being lazy or not living up to her potential. We want our daughters to work hard, but not to the point where it become detrimental. It's definitely a work in progress.


I think of all the Asians who are in professional schools (or kids who were pushed by their parents) vs the ones who ended up there on their own accord. In my own experience, the ones who are their on their own accord are waaay more happy than those who were pushed (me being a prime example.) I definitely envy those people who have found success on their own terms. I envy the parents who have figured out how to be supportive and raise happy & successful children.


One last thing - these Asian parents who don't let their children date are always the first to complain when their child isn't married the minute he or she is out of school. My mom's master plan for me (no joke) was to go to medical school, not dating anyone along the way, and then poof, get married when I completed my education. Much to my mom's dismay, I did not go to medical school, and I started dating way before completing my education.

I agree with a lot that you said. The, "owing" thing with my taiwanese parents is less about $$ (although with my korean mil, it's all about the $$$), but more about wanting bragging rights. In the end, while they WANT their children to be successful, much of this motivation is for their own ego. As for the weakness, my brother was in a very severe car accident a few yrs ago, to the point where we didn't know if he would make it and if he did, whether or not he would ever be functional again. My father acted cowardly. He would not even end his vacation (this happened while my parents were on vacation out of the country), to go see my brother who was in a coma. My other brother and I were beyond livid, both of us dropped what we were doing and drove several states to get to the hospital asap. My dad also downplayed everything to his relatives, saying my brother was fine, b/c he didn't want them to, 'worry.' Well, they should have been worried and they were, despite my dad insisting that everything was, 'fine.' We honestly feel that he was ashamed that my brother might end up a vegetable. To this day, my brothers, myself and my sil married to my brother who was in the accident, cannot forgive my dad's lack of action in this situation. His reaction as a parent is IMO abnormal, what parent would not drop what he/she was doing to be at their child's side if something like this happened??? Other than my own dad, I don't know anyone who would behave this way! His attitude was, "there is nothing I can do, so I won't go, b/c it won't make any difference." My mom went (but he wouldn't let her go right away, he still insisted they finish their vacation). Now that my brother is pissed at my dad, my parents blame ME, saying that I, "poisoned" my brother's mind to hate my dad. Uh, no. My dad is responsible for us hating him, he did that on his very own, w/o anybody's help, even before the accident. We already all felt this way, my brothers aren't dumb, they didn't need me to tell them anything.

I believe that there is a LOT of mental illness among the asian population, but there is such a stigma, most ppl go undiagnosed. I think that btwn my parents and in laws, the only one who doesn't have what I would consider mental illness/personality disorders would be my fil. Everyone else, my dad, my mom (whose illness is caused from the toxicity of my dad), and my mil ALL have really bad issues, basically ALL of my dad's siblings have issues (his family spent yrs all suing one another, so to say they are dysfunctional is to put things lightly). We honestly do not know what to do with our parents when they grow old. NONE of us want to take them in, b/c they would make our lives completely miserable, yet we feel guilty sending them to a facility. The only one I would think about taking in would be my fil and my mom (w/o my dad), but my dad and mil, forget it. My DH knows that if we had to take his mom in, I would divorce him. That's how bad it is. What will probably happen is that we will play hot potato and shuffle them around to each family not everyone gets stuck with them all of the time, and we spread the misery. I have a cousin who came out of the closet and my parents act like this is a horrible shame to the family. Personally, I'm amazed that my cousin was able to come out of the closet, knowing the type of judgment she would get from the family.

As for the marriage thing, yeah, it's weird. Among my parents' friends, I was the first to get married. EVERYONE was excited (my parents' friends) for us, except for my parents who were disappointed that I didn't marry a doctor, so they were too embarrassed to announce my engagement. Fast forward 5 yrs and all of the other parents are freaking out about why their doctor/lawyer children are not married and my parents are actually sitting pretty and don't even realize it (my brothers were both engaged by then). We were forbidden to date in high school, we all dated in college, even though we were told we were not allowed to. It's a good thing we dated in college, or we'd probably still all be single at this point, my parents still don't understand this. The amount of control that chinese parents want over their children is smothering to say the least. They do not understand the idea of boundaries, they feel that it is their right as your elder to do whatever they want.

As for being a parent myself. YES, it is so hard to go against the way you were brought up. My instinct is to yell at, berate and hit my children. That was the way I was brought up. I find it very mentally hard to constantly have to parent the opposite from the way I was parented. Don't get me wrong, I'm not raising my kids up to be a bunch of slackers, I still have high expectations for them, I just don't feel that it's worthwhile to use, guilt, shame, anger and abuse to motivate them and I don't think that withholding love is healthy. Plus, ultimately, I don't want my kids to grow up hating me. I don't expect to be best friends with them, but I want to be able to have a good relationship with them. My parents and in laws have basically made it impossible for us to have positive relationship, b/c there is this entitlement on their end that THEY deserve our respect, BUT they do not need to show us respect in return and that the respect we should give them is not something that they need to earn. I just don't see how this sort of arrangement is supposed to work out, when it's a one way street, no wonder so many 2nd+ gen asian american adults have such rotten relationships with their parents.

Oh and you guys will love this. So, my mom forward me this "chinese moms are superior" article last night. One of her friends' dd forwarded it to her mom saying something like, "this makes me look like a softie" and her mom forwarded it to my mom. My mom forwards it to my brothers and I, and basically uses the article to justify why she raised us this way. My brothers and I are all disgusted that my mom read this article and didn't see anything wrong with it. In their minds, they can never do anything wrong, they always think that they are perfect, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised. I know when I see her later this wk, she is going to ask me if I read the article and then we will probably get into an argument over it.

[BabyMine]

She is on the Today show talking about her book.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41005969/ns/today-books/

[codex57]

One last thing - these Asian parents who don't let their children date are always the first to complain when their child isn't married the minute he or she is out of school. My mom's master plan for me (no joke) was to go to medical school, not dating anyone along the way, and then poof, get married when I completed my education. Much to my mom's dismay, I did not go to medical school, and I started dating way before completing my education.

The kids aren't dating. They're just hanging out with a "friend". That's how they can miraculously get married right after school. :)

[melonpan]

wow, amy chuas really done an a+ job of putting her name out there. shes going to sell a lot more books with this excerpt out there!

[Globetrotter]

We honestly do not know what to do with our parents when they grow old. NONE of us want to take them in, b/c they would make our lives completely miserable, yet we feel guilty sending them to a facility.

That's us! My parents have so many unresolved issues and I feel ill at the thought of them living here and bringing us down with them, but the guilt...

I don't think it's "disgusting" to take care of the elderly, but I do feel they have to earn that right by behaving properly!

:rotflmao: at the marriage thing!! Yep, I can relate, though in my case their solution was an arranged marriage. Problem solved! (though I didn't listen to their solution)

[Nicsmom]

I think this is a very interesting discussion. I am a college professor and I am often horrified at the lack of accountability, discipline, dedication, and respect for authority of some of my students. I worry that our society is sometimes promoting entitlement and self-indulgence in our younger generations in the name of love, self-esteem, and letting kids be kids.

That said, I am not anything like the author of this book. But I have to admit that I wish I was a bit more like her - less the demeaning and verbally abusive language and behavior - and that our society as a whole would place more value on some of the things she mentions, like achievement, respecting the elders, responsibility and hard work.

[niccig]

On the other hand, you hear of how the elderly in the West are often forgotten -left alone in nursing homes. That is something I feel very sad about. Chinese children often would rather have their parents live with them vs putting them in a nursing home. .

I just wanted to comment on this. My MIL was a Director of Nursing at nursing homes, and we had this conversation about caring for your elderly parents. She said that part of her speech to the nurses was to not judge the family members that didn't visit often, as you don't know what kind of person the elderly was to their family. She had first hand experience of this as FIL's father was an abusive, domineering man whose refusal to get his wife medical assistance caused her to die when FIL was a young child. He then went on to abuse his children and finally abandoned them to his relatives. FIL did make sure that his father was cared for, but visits to the nursing home were minimal because the man basically killed his mother and made his childhood a misery.

It's very easy to judge, but you don't know the full story behind every relationship.

[KDsMommy]

Amy Chua is about to be on NPR.

[lovebebes]

Just saw this posted somewhere else. Response to Chua. Haven't read it yet.
http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

this link is in one of the responses to the above article

http://www.asianweek.com/2009/08/14/suicide-rates-rising-among-asian-americans/

[pomegranate]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but here's a nice article in response to Amy Chua's original piece: http://bettymingliu.com/2011/01/parents-like-amy-chua-are-the-reason-why-asian-americans-like-me-are-in-therapy/.

[94bruin]

Amy Chua is about to be on NPR.
Which program?

Found it:Fresh Air

[justlearning]

The author was interviewed on the Today Show this morning--here's a link:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41005969/ns/today-books/

[citymama]

wow, amy chuas really done an a+ job of putting her name out there. shes going to sell a lot more books with this excerpt out there!

I totally agree - I think it's a brilliant marketing strategy that would make her parents proud!

She is an incredibly compassionate and kind person in reality. I do think a lot of this was sensationalizing in order to spark a debate like this - and sell more books.

[smilequeen]

I totally agree - I think it's a brilliant marketing strategy that would make her parents proud!

She is an incredibly compassionate and kind person in reality. I do think a lot of this was sensationalizing in order to spark a debate like this - and sell more books.

I don't know...she sounds like an awfully cruel mother. I think a lot of people who are abusive in some way to their own families come off to others as incredibly kind. As in
"I can't believe THIS person would do that" YK?

[twowhat?]

I don't know...she sounds like an awfully cruel mother. I think a lot of people who are abusive in some way to their own families come off to others as incredibly kind. As in
"I can't believe THIS person would do that" YK?

I wouldn't be surprised if she chose an example in which she simply just "lost it" with her DD and sensationalized it. Who knows for sure whether she parents like that every minute of the day?

[egoldber]

:yeahthat:

People thought my father was charming. In reality he was controlling and abusive.

[citymama]

:yeahthat:

People thought my father was charming. In reality he was controlling and abusive.

OK, let's hypothesize she really is incredibly abusive. Why would she bare it all in the pages of WSJ? My hypothesis is that this is part serious, part hyperbole. Not fictional, but sensationalized.

[BabyMine]

this link is in one of the responses to the above article

http://www.asianweek.com/2009/08/14/suicide-rates-rising-among-asian-americans/

I was wondering about the suicide rate. The story in the response section is sad and speaks volumes to the pressure and mental illness.

[egoldber]

Maybe she's abusive, maybe not. My point was that just because someone is charming, smart and funny, does not mean they are not abusive to their families.

And I am sure it is sensationalized. But some of the things she described in that article, to me, were abusive.

[BabyMine]

Just saw this posted somewhere else. Response to Chua. Haven't read it yet.
http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

This reminds me of the Baby Reading program. It's not teaching them to truly read but memorize. It doesn't help the baby but most likely the parents only care about the bragging rights. I believe that some things cannot be taught regardless of the abuse. Being artist is something you have or you don't. You can teach someone to copy a style or painting but that is different than putting your thoughts and feelings onto a canvas or any other type of medium.

[goldenpig]

wow, amy chuas really done an a+ job of putting her name out there. shes going to sell a lot more books with this excerpt out there!

:rotflmao:LOL! That's totally something my mom would say. We went to visit her recently over the holidays and she told me "Your kids get an A+!" for being so cute & well-behaved, and that my niece gets a "B" for throwing tantrums and grabbing toys from my DD. She meant it as a compliment, but who grades their grandchildren :shake:? (Even if I do agree with her assessment :wink2:, I don't think I'll tell my sister what Mom said). That's totally an example of the Asian mindset.

[Globetrotter]

"Your kids get an A+!" for being so cute & well-behaved, and that my niece gets a "B" for throwing tantrums and grabbing toys from my DD. She meant it as a compliment, but who grades their grandchildren :shake:? (Even if I do agree with her assessment :wink2:, I don't think I'll tell my sister what Mom said). That's totally an example of the Asian mindset.

:ROTFLMAO:Just when i thought I had heard it all!!

My mom is so critical of my kids and constantly comparing them to others, but the irony is that my kids are actually very bright and have achieved a lot in their short lives. It's just never enough for her :( Instead, she focuses on some little thing another kid did and how come my kids didn;t do that? For instance, how come their cousins got a spelling award and my kids didn't? Well, the cousins go to a low-achieving school so they do everything they can to encourage the kids to excel. In our Asian pressure cooker school, practically every kid would have earned that award so they don't even bother and for instance, in our school, they stopped publishing the honor roll to control the competitive parents! (but she still focuses on the fact that my kids didn't get that particular spelling award, forgetting all their other achievements.)

[arivecchi]

Interesting article and interview (on the Today show), but honestly, I do not know why she thinks she has done such a great job parenting her children. Her kids may have a completely different assessment when they become adults.

Totally OT, but most of my law school professors were incredibly odd individuals who seemed to be seriously lacking in social skills. From my admittedly very superficial knowledge of her, she seems to fit that mold. I wonder if social skills are part of her definition of success? Not letting your child do the things that many children do in their childhood would seem to be a surefire way to ensure that they feel like outsiders while they are of school age.

[malphy]

I don't know why this thread irks me but it does.

I like being an American mom. That way I can cherry pick the best practices of all the cultures that make this country great.

I can encourage my child to excel in their endeavors without sacrificing warmth and love.

Just my 2cents.

[codex57]

I don't know why this thread irks me but it does.


Cuz know one likes to be criticized, especially for their parenting skills. That's basically what she implies. Especially with that title. Beautiful example of a provocative and controversial title and how to get attention.

[Nicsmom]

So I am the only one that sees something good about what Amy Chua says? Of course she is an extreme, and by no means I am condoning her abusive methods, but as a society as a whole aren't we lacking a bit of discipline and hard work? I am not talking about any of the moms here on the board but as a society as a whole. Could it be possible, for example, that our parenting style has had some effect on the decline in education in our country?

One of the things she said that really got me thinking is that we only like the things we are good at and if we don't try hard at them we won't be good at them and we won't like them. She also talks about always believing that our kids can do better if they try harder, and passing this belief to them. I think these are two powerful messages that I am sure most mothers would agree with but in practice they are hard to follow. To really follow. At least it's hard for me and that's why I can learn something from Amy Chua's message.

Oh my, now I'm afraid I'm going to be flamed :( You can see the kind of wimp I am.

[Kindra178]

So I am the only one that sees something good about what Amy Chua says? Of course she is an extreme, and by no means I am condoning her abusive methods, but as a society as a whole aren't we lacking a bit of discipline and hard work? I am not talking about any of the moms here on the board but as a society as a whole. Could it be possible, for example, that our parenting style has had some effect on the decline in education in our country?

One of the things she said that really got me thinking is that we only like the things we are good at and if we don't try hard at them we won't be good at them and we won't like them. She also talks about always believing that our kids can do better if they try harder, and passing this belief to them. I think these are two powerful messages that I am sure most mothers would agree with but in practice they are hard to follow. To really follow. At least it's hard for me and that's why I can learn something from Amy Chua's message.

Oh my, now I'm afraid I'm going to be flamed :( You can see the kind of wimp I am.

I completely agree with you.

[BabyMine]

So I am the only one that sees something good about what Amy Chua says? Of course she is an extreme, and by no means I am condoning her abusive methods, but as a society as a whole aren't we lacking a bit of discipline and hard work? I am not talking about any of the moms here on the board but as a society as a whole. Could it be possible, for example, that our parenting style has had some effect on the decline in education in our country?

One of the things she said that really got me thinking is that we only like the things we are good at and if we don't try hard at them we won't be good at them and we won't like them. She also talks about always believing that our kids can do better if they try harder, and passing this belief to them. I think these are two powerful messages that I am sure most mothers would agree with but in practice they are hard to follow. To really follow. At least it's hard for me and that's why I can learn something from Amy Chua's message.

Oh my, now I'm afraid I'm going to be flamed :( You can see the kind of wimp I am.

I am all for that but she does it to the extreme and I will not verbally abuse my children. A different way could achieve the same result but she doesn't want to explore that.

[egoldber]

I do think it is important to try things that are hard.

It is why I am generally against holding kids back just because they are young.

It's why I have been seeking an appropriate academic placement for my older DD since she was 6 and despairing that school to date has been academically too easy for her.

It's why I am struggling with whether or not to let her drop the viola.

And as the mother to a child with anxiety, I'm aware that letting her not do things that are hard for her or that she is afraid of often reinforces anxiety.

But I also don't think that the answer to ANY of that is shaming and emotional abuse, which is what I think she described in that article.

[Mommy_Again]

Chinese people have a very strong culture of respect for elders. In my own family, my parents sacrificed a lot to help me get to where I am. To help them when they possibly need help is one way to repay them for everything they've done. However, there is nothing of this "owing" my parents anything. In fact, my mom refuses my help in many situations where I think she needs my help. She has stated many times that she does not expect me or my brother to help her when she is older (well, she is older, these statements were made some years ago.) However, we *want* to help her because they are our parents, and where would we be without them? It's a different mindset, but I don't think it's something to be disgusted about. Yes, there are some parents that think that their children "owe" them, but that is not all Chinese parents. It's more about respecting those who came before you.

I'm the one who used the word "disgusted", which is probably a bit harsh. I;m sorry if I offended anyone. And reading yours and other PPs' views on taking care of their elders - nothing disgusting about that and I totally agree with your philosophy. What caused me to have such a strong reaction (and I should have been more clear), was thinking back to a thread a year or so ago, where several posters recounted pretty harsh stories about their parents demanding money and other forms of support. Things that caused the posters' own immediate family to have to do without what they themselves needed. I wish my memory wasn't so horrible, so I could recall details or even the main them of the thread so I could search for it...maybe someone else will.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

Here's a mompetition style story about the book (from NMA TV in Taiwan):
Western mom vs. Chinese mom: Who is better? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ0Qfn689ZA&feature=player_embedded)

[codex57]

bahahahahaha

[Fairy]

Have waited to mull this over first, and I've not read more than a couple pages of replies. The Today Show clip was even more eye-opening than the excerpt. I think Amy Chua is an example of parenting that is hurtful and traumatizing. The concepts she brings up as far as work ethic, self-discipline, achieving academic excellence thru applying oneself and reaching beyond your scope of comfort are all things that are worthy and valid. Her methods, Chinese, Japanese, Martianese, or Purpleese notwithstanding, are aggressive, abusive, and upset me greatly. I'm not offended at all as a parent. I'm heartbroken for children raised this way. Her views on sleepovers and playdates are extreme and plain old wacky. And I think she thinks girls are exploring being kinda gay if they go on a sleepover. Not a fan. Nope.

If DS comes in 2nd and gets straight B's but is a happy, healthy, kind, and soulful person, he's won.

[hellokitty]

Here's a mompetition style story about the book (from NMA TV in Taiwan):
Western mom vs. Chinese mom: Who is better? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ0Qfn689ZA&feature=player_embedded)

:ROTFLMAO: DH and I thought that this was hilarious!!! Thanks for sharing it.


Have waited to mull this over first, and I've not read more than a couple pages of replies. The Today Show clip was even more eye-opening than the excerpt. I think Amy Chua is an example of parenting that is hurtful and traumatizing. The concepts she brings up as far as work ethic, self-discipline, achieving academic excellence thru applying oneself and reaching beyond your scope of comfort are all things that are worthy and valid. Her methods, Chinese, Japanese, Martianese, or Purpleese notwithstanding, are aggressive, abusive, and upset me greatly. I'm not offended at all as a parent. I'm heartbroken for children raised this way. Her views on sleepovers and playdates are extreme and plain old wacky. And I think she thinks girls are exploring being kinda gay if they go on a sleepover. Not a fan. Nope.

If DS comes in 2nd and gets straight B's but is a happy, healthy, kind, and soulful person, he's won.

When I watched the clip, it made me feel physically ill. She just seemed totally devoid of feelings and worst of all, you could tell she felt that there was absolutely nothing wrong with talking to her kids like that, even when Meridith pointed out several times that talking to kids like that was extremely harsh. The part about rejecting her dd's card and throwing it back at her dd while telling her it wasn't good enough, was awful. My DH and I were shaking our heads. Also the part where her dd broke a glass while they were on vacation, b/c she no longer wanted to play that much violin was IMO pretty telling of how controlling tiger mom is. I just found the clip disturbing, her body language was odd and unnatural, and she just came off as arrogant and cold, probably resembling a cylon more than a human.

[Fairy]

When I watched the clip, it made me feel physically ill. She just seemed totally devoid of feelings and worst of all, you could tell she felt that there was absolutely nothing wrong with talking to her kids like that, even when Meridith pointed out several times that talking to kids like that was extremely harsh. The part about rejecting her dd's card and throwing it back at her dd while telling her it wasn't good enough, was awful. My DH and I were shaking our heads. Also the part where her dd broke a glass while they were on vacation, b/c she no longer wanted to play that much violin was IMO pretty telling of how controlling tiger mom is. I just found the clip disturbing, her body language was odd and unnatural, and she just came off as arrogant and cold, probably resembling a cylon more than a human.

That about sums it up. Especially the bolded part. I cried.

[goldenpig]

Here's some more to stir the pot further--author's response to WSJ article:

From SF Gate:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL
"...Chua responded to a brief message I sent her introducing myself and asking for an interview by saying that she was glad to hear from me, as she'd been looking for a way to discuss her misgivings about the Journal article. Apparently, it had been edited without her input, and by the time she saw the version they intended to run, she was limited in what she could do to alter it.


I was very surprised," she says. "The Journal basically strung together the most controversial sections of the book. And I had no idea they'd put that kind of a title on it. But the worst thing was, they didn't even hint that the book is about a journey, and that the person at beginning of the book is different from the person at the end -- that I get my comeuppance and retreat from this very strict Chinese parenting model."


While the Journal article was unquestionably good for sales and awareness of the book, which has already hit #7 on Amazon and is only headed upward, it has been painful for Chua. "I've gotten scary messages. Death threats. All from people who haven't yet read the book," she says. "And while it's ultimately my responsibility -- my strict Chinese mom told me 'never blame other people for your problems!' -- the one-sided nature of the excerpt has really led to some major misconceptions about what the book says, and about what I really believe."


I think it's interesting that if you look at the book cover on Amazon, it actually says:
"Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. This is a story about a mother, two daughters, and two dogs. This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old."


So while I still don't condone the methods described, I don't think the WSJ article is the whole story. Brilliant marketing ploy though!

[Fairy]

Here's some more to stir the pot further--author's response to WSJ article:

From SF Gate:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL
"...Chua responded to a brief message I sent her introducing myself and asking for an interview by saying that she was glad to hear from me, as she'd been looking for a way to discuss her misgivings about the Journal article. Apparently, it had been edited without her input, and by the time she saw the version they intended to run, she was limited in what she could do to alter it.


I was very surprised," she says. "The Journal basically strung together the most controversial sections of the book. And I had no idea they'd put that kind of a title on it. But the worst thing was, they didn't even hint that the book is about a journey, and that the person at beginning of the book is different from the person at the end -- that I get my comeuppance and retreat from this very strict Chinese parenting model."


While the Journal article was unquestionably good for sales and awareness of the book, which has already hit #7 on Amazon and is only headed upward, it has been painful for Chua. "I've gotten scary messages. Death threats. All from people who haven't yet read the book," she says. "And while it's ultimately my responsibility -- my strict Chinese mom told me 'never blame other people for your problems!' -- the one-sided nature of the excerpt has really led to some major misconceptions about what the book says, and about what I really believe."


I think it's interesting that if you look at the book cover on Amazon, it actually says:
"Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. This is a story about a mother, two daughters, and two dogs. This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old."


So while I still don't condone the methods described, I don't think the WSJ article is the whole story. Brilliant marketing ploy though!

Even if you believe the WSJ article was unfair, Chua dug her own series of holes in that Today Show interview, which wasn't leading and gave her plenty of opportunity to climb out of that hole and "clarify." I don't feel sorry for her at all.

[Asianmommy]

From the perspective of another Asian mom from the underwear drawer (http://theunderweardrawer.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-quality-crab.html): "My parents pushed me, but they did it because that's what you do when you love your kids. You pushed them to be the very best. As the article stated, there is the sense that allowing your kids to not be the best is the worst kind of parental neglect."

I think the desire to teach your children to work hard, to be disciplined, and to achieve academic excellence are to be admired, but sometimes the methods used to get them there are just nuts. The problem with "Chinese moms" is that the goals are set and must be met--pretty much at any cost.

[dhano923]

I think this is a very interesting discussion. I am a college professor and I am often horrified at the lack of accountability, discipline, dedication, and respect for authority of some of my students. I worry that our society is sometimes promoting entitlement and self-indulgence in our younger generations in the name of love, self-esteem, and letting kids be kids.

That said, I am not anything like the author of this book. But I have to admit that I wish I was a bit more like her - less the demeaning and verbally abusive language and behavior - and that our society as a whole would place more value on some of the things she mentions, like achievement, respecting the elders, responsibility and hard work.

:yeahthat:

I'm in HR and it amazes me sometimes what type of attitude young people have nowadays. I've had a 20 something guy tell me that he needs to work a flexible schedule because he surfs in the mornings sometimes and may not make it to work at the time I mentioned, I've had people give me a list of their demands (3 weeks vacation, paid cellphone, etc) before we're even done with the interview, and I've had parents call me to ask if their 20-something year old kid got the job! It's ridiculous sometimes -- there's too much hand holding and sense of entitlement now I think. I know a lot of parents who try to be their kids' friend instead of their parent, and then wonder why Joe won't do this, or isn't motivated to do that, but it's ok because they don't want to intrude in his life.

I'm 1st generation here, and we're Indian, but my parents didn't grow up in India either. My mom grew up in Singapore, where education is huge. In Singapore, Burma (where my dad grew up), and India, the culture is that you obey and show respect towards your parents at all times, they will push you to do your best, and the end result is that you will get a great job, marry a great person, have great kids, and take care of your parents as "payback" for everything they did for you. It's a cycle -- they did it, now you do it. It's not seen as selfish; rather, you're considered selfish if you veer from this plan to do something on your own because then you are just thinking about yourself.

I do think the article showed she was a bit too strict, but at the same time, I agree with many of the things she said. We are too lenient in this country, and it's the countries that push their children that are flying high nowadays.

[MamaMolly]

I don't think the WSJ article is the whole story. Brilliant marketing ploy though!

I may have agreed with you had I not heard her interview on NPR (the Dianne Rheem show, IIRC). At one point she said that her daughters were complaining about the book, saying that people would think that they weren't normal, that they never laughed and that they had a lot of fun growing up. And Ms. Chua's response was that 'nobody wanted to read about the *boring parts*.'

Her words. The laughter, the fun, was the 'boring' parts of raising her children.

And then she said that she wasn't sure she'd ever threatened to 'burn her daughter's stuffed animals' but that her daughter said she had. Burn her kid's stuffed animals to get them to do something. I think that is horrible parenting, even if she isn't 'sure' she said it, her daughter believes she did.

I'm sorry she's being threatened, I think that is an unreasonable response. But I don't have any sympathy for her. She wrote and interviewed herself into this. She is what she is.

[m448]

:yeahthat:

I'm in HR and it amazes me sometimes what type of attitude young people have nowadays. I've had a 20 something guy tell me that he needs to work a flexible schedule because he surfs in the mornings sometimes and may not make it to work at the time I mentioned, I've had people give me a list of their demands (3 weeks vacation, paid cellphone, etc) before we're even done with the interview, and I've had parents call me to ask if their 20-something year old kid got the job! It's ridiculous sometimes -- there's too much hand holding and sense of entitlement now I think. I know a lot of parents who try to be their kids' friend instead of their parent, and then wonder why Joe won't do this, or isn't motivated to do that, but it's ok because they don't want to intrude in his life.

I'm 1st generation here, and we're Indian, but my parents didn't grow up in India either. My mom grew up in Singapore, where education is huge. In Singapore, Burma (where my dad grew up), and India, the culture is that you obey and show respect towards your parents at all times, they will push you to do your best, and the end result is that you will get a great job, marry a great person, have great kids, and take care of your parents as "payback" for everything they did for you. It's a cycle -- they did it, now you do it. It's not seen as selfish; rather, you're considered selfish if you veer from this plan to do something on your own because then you are just thinking about yourself.

I do think the article showed she was a bit too strict, but at the same time, I agree with many of the things she said. We are too lenient in this country, and it's the countries that push their children that are flying high nowadays.

Ahh but this is boundaryless and unhealthy. To express my love for my parents and help the or care for them is healthy. To do so out of guilt or to have my parents emotionally manipulate me into some dysfunctional cycle is crazy. I'm Dominican by the way.

[BabyMine]

We were watching Ni Hao Kai-Lan and I didn't notice Ye Ye calling her garbage or making her practice an instrument. :D

[codex57]

I may have agreed with you had I not heard her interview on NPR (the Dianne Rheem show, IIRC). At one point she said that her daughters were complaining about the book, saying that people would think that they weren't normal, that they never laughed and that they had a lot of fun growing up. And Ms. Chua's response was that 'nobody wanted to read about the *boring parts*.'

Her words. The laughter, the fun, was the 'boring' parts of raising her children.

And then she said that she wasn't sure she'd ever threatened to 'burn her daughter's stuffed animals' but that her daughter said she had. Burn her kid's stuffed animals to get them to do something. I think that is horrible parenting, even if she isn't 'sure' she said it, her daughter believes she did.

I'm sorry she's being threatened, I think that is an unreasonable response. But I don't have any sympathy for her. She wrote and interviewed herself into this. She is what she is.

It's "boring" because no one would be shocked or raise an eyebrow at those parts. Not provocative nor is it different than what happens in Western parenting. If she wrote a book about how much fun she has with her kids, no one would read it cuz what would be the point?


Ahh but this is boundaryless and unhealthy. To express my love for my parents and help the or care for them is healthy. To do so out of guilt or to have my parents emotionally manipulate me into some dysfunctional cycle is crazy. I'm Dominican by the way.

It's not necessarily cuz the parents emotionally manipulate it. It can be. Some parents do squat or are horrible parents, but still guilt the kids into things. HelloKitty's parents come to mind. <shudder> That said, my parents put a lot of pressure on me. I've got my disagreements with them and run from my mom as much as possible. It's not cuz I don't love them tho (she's just crazy... literally... my dad is just realizing it after listening to my sis and me independently). I want to take care of them because I recognize they parented the way they did cuz they loved me and my sister.

[smiles33]

We were watching Ni Hao Kai-Lan and I didn't notice Ye Ye calling her garbage or making her practice an instrument. :D

Yeah, I'm glad Ni Hao Kai-Lan is introducing more Americans to Chinese-American culture but I'm afraid Amy Chua is now defining what "Chinese parenting" is for Americans. I haven't posted here earlier as I'm just disgusted. She's "Amy Tan" on parenting--taking the most outrageous/ridiculous/extreme "cultural practices" and painting them as normal. Chinese people are not FREAKS.

For the record, I've never cut myself and made blood soup for my parents to show them how much I love them.

[goldenpig]

We were watching Ni Hao Kai-Lan and I didn't notice Ye Ye calling her garbage or making her practice an instrument. :D


Yeah, I'm glad Ni Hao Kai-Lan is introducing more Americans to Chinese-American culture but I'm afraid Amy Chua is now defining what "Chinese parenting" is for Americans. I haven't posted here earlier as I'm just disgusted. She's "Amy Tan" on parenting--taking the most outrageous/ridiculous/extreme "cultural practices" and painting them as normal. Chinese people are not FREAKS.

For the record, I've never cut myself and made blood soup for my parents to show them how much I love them.

:yeahthat:
I'm not defending her. I haven't seen the Today show/NPR segments but will when I get a chance. I will say I'm glad I'm not her daughter though! DH is mad because he's worried there will be a backlash against Asians/Asian parents, because this just reinforces the stereotypes and people think all Asians are rabid pushy demanding freaks.

We went with Montessori for our DD, which I guess would be the antithesis of what she calls "Chinese parenting" style as it relies primarily on individual choice.

[maestramommy]

Here's some more to stir the pot further--author's response to WSJ article:

From SF Gate:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL
"...Chua responded to a brief message I sent her introducing myself and asking for an interview by saying that she was glad to hear from me, as she'd been looking for a way to discuss her misgivings about the Journal article. Apparently, it had been edited without her input, and by the time she saw the version they intended to run, she was limited in what she could do to alter it.


I was very surprised," she says. "The Journal basically strung together the most controversial sections of the book. And I had no idea they'd put that kind of a title on it. But the worst thing was, they didn't even hint that the book is about a journey, and that the person at beginning of the book is different from the person at the end -- that I get my comeuppance and retreat from this very strict Chinese parenting model."


While the Journal article was unquestionably good for sales and awareness of the book, which has already hit #7 on Amazon and is only headed upward, it has been painful for Chua. "I've gotten scary messages. Death threats. All from people who haven't yet read the book," she says. "And while it's ultimately my responsibility -- my strict Chinese mom told me 'never blame other people for your problems!' -- the one-sided nature of the excerpt has really led to some major misconceptions about what the book says, and about what I really believe."


I think it's interesting that if you look at the book cover on Amazon, it actually says:
"Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. This is a story about a mother, two daughters, and two dogs. This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old."


So while I still don't condone the methods described, I don't think the WSJ article is the whole story. Brilliant marketing ploy though!

Well now! That is certainly interesting. I was wondering why the whole tone of the (original) article sounded like it was written by Sandra Tsing Loh:p

One our family yahoo group, one of Dh's uncle also posted this article, which I imagine is a followup to the original.
http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/01/13/the-tiger-mother-responds-to-readers/

I suppose if you understand from the getgo that this is a memoir, and that the author gets her "comeuppance," it's not that interesting for selling books. It was probably genius for the WSJ to choose that particular title. A more accurate title would've probably produced yawns and maybe no one but other Asians would've thought about reading the book. But it does make me, as someone who wanted to barf after the first article, now much more likely to read it. It's funny, when I first read the article, I had no idea it was to promote a book. :loveeyes:

I also think this and other threads that have sprung up, have evolved the conversation in a great way. More and more Asians are starting to own up to their own "Chinese Mothering" ways, things that I myself feel have a lot of value, minus all the belittling and shaming.

[goldenpig]

Here's a mompetition style story about the book (from NMA TV in Taiwan):
Western mom vs. Chinese mom: Who is better? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ0Qfn689ZA&feature=player_embedded)

Haha, funny!

I also think it's hilarious that the reason her daughter "rebels" is because the daughter wants to play tennis, which is the quintessential Asian parent-approved sport, instead of the violin.

[MartiesMom2B]

Love the NMA video!

[american_mama]

DH and I read the artcile and saw the Today show article, plus DH listened to the NPR interview with Diane Rheem. I've read all these replies with great interest and will read many of the links.

For myself, I agree with the PP who detected defensiveness in these replies. I sure feel defensive after reading this article; I feel like a crappy mother who settles for too little from her kids and isn't willing to work hard enough for them. I think one reason the article has generated such attention is because it plays on two American fears: 1) the national competition with China which many feel we are or will lose and 2) the sense that our country is coming apart, losing its way, and that the roots of that stem from how we raise our children.

I do think that perhaps this latter reason is part of why she wrote the article, at least that's what I got from the Today show interview (whihc I didn't think was so bad). I wonder if she combines a lot of things in the book: the same tough love approach to parenting applied to taking-to-task regarding the American parenting techniques of her adopted country, a minor confessional of her extreme moments MEANT to show her in a bad light, a cultural discussion of two different parenting styles and value systems, and also a how-to manual of her parenting principles and tactics which she clearly thinks have great value.

She does seem to be a superb marketer, because she seems to choose which of those perspectives she emphasizes depending on the moment/audience. Maybe she chooses which perspective depending on how much heat she feels like dealing with; that was another impression I got from the Today show interview. In it, she says "I'm a different mother at the end of the book than at the beginning," but the memoir/mistakes and growth part of the book is not something she otherwise hinted at in the article or interview.

There are also many things left out of this article and interview. Her husband is not Chinese and she concedes in the article and interview that he had a more relaxed attitude about parenting. So, how did two parents negotiating their different cultural attitudes towards success and parenting? What was gained and lost in that process? Also, how exactly did Chua succeed at a very high level professionally (tenured law professor at Yale) with this total hands-on approach to parenting? In that example of making her child practice the difficult piano piece again and again - what was the other kid doing? Who was cooking dinner, drilling the other kid on math or violin, grading papers, writing a case study, whatever, while for hours standing over a child making them practice piano? What other parts of her family;s life were left out of her re-telling of this and other events?

Also, it's not logically possible that everyone in China can be #1. If her father told her to never to embarass him again when Chua got #2 in a history competition, what did the child who got 5th or 10th place hear, especially if that person was consistently good enough to compete but never good enough to win? I mean, EVERY society has to be full of average people, or good but not great people. And low achievers - someone is picking up trash in China. How did their parents raise them and what do their parents say? What about people who are stars in other arenas? Is a Chinese parent raving about their master chef son, their opera singer daughter? Lastly, does anyone know if this parenting style might be actual a very narrow slice of the Chinese parenting pool, perhaps coming from very educated or ambitious parents? I would think immigrants, by very definition, are ambitious, so if this is a common theme among second generation children, perhaps it has to do with the similar traits that brought those parents here in the first place? Because, again, someone in China is raising people doing a thousand other jobs... fireman and nurses and teachers, ditch diggers and dish washers, etc.

Lastly, maybe I should have put this first because it's something that hasn't otherwise been discussed in the thread, but DH is a professor of engineering, so he sees the end educational results of these students. His comments were: 1) he thinks drilling works well in certain contexts (when kids are young, or on certain tests like SATs) but not so much as kids get much older 2) at the graduate student level, you don't see a huge difference in the abilities of American students compared to others; he thinks American students work just as hard as anybody else and have the added bonus of being able to write and communicate more effectively, at the least because they aren't dealing with a foreign language. 3) he worries about the "win at any cost" mentality. He says cheating among Asian students was rampant at his graduate institution. He also worries about the end result of that attitude in a working context; if the engineer of, say, a bridge support thinks there are problems with the design, do you want them to go ahead with it anyway just to look good or to win?

This article fascinated and repulsed me at the same time;at a very few parts, I thought she was deliberately trying to mock herself but more often she seemed to be proud. I do think there are things I can learn from it, mostly about the difference a parent can make in "getting" a child to achieve.

[citymama]

Also, how exactly did Chua succeed at a very high level professionally (tenured law professor at Yale) with this total hands-on approach to parenting? In that example of making her child practice the difficult piano piece again and again - what was the other kid doing? Who was cooking dinner, drilling the other kid on math or violin, grading papers, writing a case study, whatever while for hours standing over a child making them practice piano? What was left out of that big picture version of events?



I can answer at least part of that set of questions. They have a live-in Chinese speaking nanny.

[american_mama]

That answers some questions, because I did not consider a family in this situation had live-in help or help that is following the same cultural model. I had a hard time imagining an American nanny following Chua's principles to the degree that she would want.

But I still have questions. Isn't divide and conquer an almost intuitive concept among children? If mommy is going bonkers with one kid, that leaves the other kid free to get a little lazy, maybe act up herself... and softie dad or not-my-mom nanny doesn't have the same power as the Tiger Mother to reign that in. If mom's stuck in traffic or working late, or just works regularly until the evening, like lots of full-time people, is the nanny actually the one making the kids do all the work?

It may depend on where you come from, but I have heard immigrants to this country talk about how life is harder here in ways... more hours spent working, less hired help, more stress. I am just wondering about the difficulties and costs of transplanting the Chinese method to American life, although Chua's style is leading me to ask if I am just making excuses. Maybe.

[codex57]

Sibling rivalry and just straight pressure/fear can keep kids from getting lazy. Even if mom doesn't scare you, you know the parents are gonna gossip so to avoid looking like the village idiot, you can't slack off totally. Admittedly, my sister and I have never fought because we learned at a young age that it was better to band together like you said. I cover for her, she covers for me. Mom stresses her out, I calm her down. I vented to her when things got crazy with mom. The thing is, we're the only siblings I've ever heard who took it to that level. Still, we were constantly compared to cousins and family friends so we still never turned into total slackers or anything.

Also, if they don't have a Chinese nanny, grandma is usually the one taking that role so it tends not to get any better.

[94bruin]

Also, it's not logically possible that everyone in China can be #1. If her father told her to never to embarass him again when Chua got #2 in a history competition, what did the child who got 5th or 10th place hear, especially if that person was consistently good enough to compete but never good enough to win? I mean, EVERY society has to be full of average people, or good but not great people. And low achievers - someone is picking up trash in China. How did their parents raise them and what do their parents say? What about people who are stars in other arenas? Is a Chinese parent raving about their master chef son, their opera singer daughter? Lastly, does anyone know if this parenting style might be actual a very narrow slice of the Chinese parenting pool, perhaps coming from very educated or ambitious parents? I would think immigrants, by very definition, are ambitious, so if this is a common theme among second generation children, perhaps it has to do with the similar traits that brought those parents here in the first place? Because, again, someone in China is raising people doing a thousand other jobs... fireman and nurses and teachers, ditch diggers and dish washers, etc.

Lastly, maybe I should have put this first because it's something that hasn't otherwise been discussed in the thread, but DH is a professor of engineering, so he sees the end educational results of these students. His comments were: 1) he thinks drilling works well in certain contexts (when kids are young, or on certain tests like SATs) but not so much as kids get much older 2) at the graduate student level, you don't see a huge difference in the abilities of American students compared to others; he thinks American students work just as hard as anybody else and have the added bonus of being able to write and communicate more effectively, at the least because they aren't dealing with a foreign language. 3) he worries about the "win at any cost" mentality. He says cheating among Asian students was rampant at his graduate institution. He also worries about the end result of that attitude in a working context; if the engineer of, say, a bridge support thinks there are problems with the design, do you want them to go ahead with it anyway just to look good or to win?

Amy Chua's parents are ethnic Chinese who came from the Philippines (as is my own mom.) So, it's not really parents in China, but Chinese parents everywhere. (As my dad likes to say, Chinese people are EVERYWHERE - even in Africa!)

The key point is that the Chinese place a very heavy emphasis on hard work & education. I think it is a narrow slice of Chinese parents that only accept #1 from their children. However, from my own experience here in America, many/most Chinese parents expect their children to be near the top. Honestly, I think it has to do with the fact that most Chinese-American kids in the US are in heterogeneous school populations.

According to my Dad, this has been pretty big news in the Chinese newspapers as well, with most comments denouncing Amy Chua's method (not necessarily her intentions, though.) My Dad claims that it is not so in China. What I have found, though, is that often times, immigrants are more traditional than the societies they have left behind. While the country they left modernizes and adopts "Western" ways, the people who have immigrated have a picture in their mind of the country the way it used to be. I have found that my parents/in laws have more traditional beliefs than those aunts/uncles/cousins that stayed behind.

Obviously not everyone in China can be #1. I remember a statistic from a few years ago: China was going to have 1 million college graduates that particular year. The only way you are going to go anywhere is to study & work your butt off. Imagine having to compete with 1 million other new college grads. Yikes!

Chinese parents will find anything about their children to brag about. Of course, they would love it to be "Oh my daughter just found the cure for cancer, while she is running a multi-million dollar business on the side with her doctor husband. Blah blah blah." But they will make lemonade out of lemons - even if their child doesn't amount to much, the Chinese are all about "saving face." That means not being disgraced in front of others. It just may take a bit more explaining about the master chef thing. (But they will love an opera singer daughter-that would need no explanation. Chinese opera is big. Actually, classical music is big, too.)

As a 2nd generation Chinese-American, most of my Chinese friends had strict parents to varying degrees. However, I'm pretty sure that none were as strict as Amy Chua was/is. Definitely, none of my 2nd generation cohorts are going to be as strict as our parents were. However, all of my 2nd generation friends will have very high expectations for our children.

You also made a comment about how life is harder in the US. It is: my relatives in the Philippines all have cooks, nannies, maids & drivers. My Mom worked her butt off for many years here in the US, not having any family to help. It's not really about the cost or difficulty transporting the Chinese mentality here, though. It's actually pretty easy, because it's a completely different mindset. Immigrants don't think like Westerners. They way they think is a product of their own upbringing in their own country. It's all about helping your children succeed. At whatever cost. If it takes staying up with your kid to all hours of the night to help them study, so be it. And if you have to work 7 days a week to live in a good school district and afford piano lessons for your child, so be it. And there are no complaints. I've never really heard the works "I love you" from my parents - but their actions speak for themselves. It's just a totally different mindset, but not necessarily wrong or right. Just different. (and not one that I necessarily subscribe to.)


Lastly, I would like to point, that I am an American, first and foremost. My ancestors may have come from a different continent than yours, but I am American. Please don't lump me with people from Asia just because I look different. :)

[maestramommy]

Amy Chua's parents are ethnic Chinese who came from the Philippines (as is my own mom.) So, it's not really parents in China, but Chinese parents everywhere. (As my dad likes to say, Chinese people are EVERYWHERE - even in Africa!)

The key point is that the Chinese place a very heavy emphasis on hard work & education. I think it is a narrow slice of Chinese parents that only accept #1 from their children. However, from my own experience here in America, many/most Chinese parents expect their children to be near the top. Honestly, I think it has to do with the fact that most Chinese-American kids in the US are in heterogeneous school populations.

According to my Dad, this has been pretty big news in the Chinese newspapers as well, with most comments denouncing Amy Chua's method (not necessarily her intentions, though.) My Dad claims that it is not so in China. What I have found, though, is that often times, immigrants are more traditional than the societies they have left behind. While the country they left modernizes and adopts "Western" ways, the people who have immigrated have a picture in their mind of the country the way it used to be. I have found that my parents/in laws have more traditional beliefs than those aunts/uncles/cousins that stayed behind.

Obviously not everyone in China can be #1. I remember a statistic from a few years ago: China was going to have 1 million college graduates that particular year. The only way you are going to go anywhere is to study & work your butt off. Imagine having to compete with 1 million other new college grads. Yikes!

As a 2nd generation Chinese-American, most of my Chinese friends had strict parents to varying degrees. However, I'm pretty sure that none were as strict as Amy Chua was/is. Definitely, none of my 2nd generation cohorts are going to be as strict as our parents were. However, all of my 2nd generation friends will have very high expectations for our children.

You also made a comment about how life is harder in the US. It is: my relatives in the Philippines all have cooks, nannies, maids & drivers. My Mom worked her butt off for many years here in the US, not having any family to help. It's not really about the cost or difficulty transporting the Chinese mentality here, though. It's actually pretty easy, because it's a completely different mindset. Immigrants don't think like Westerners. They way they think is a product of their own upbringing in their own country. It's all about helping your children succeed. At whatever cost. If it takes staying up with your kid to all hours of the night to help them study, so be it. And if you have to work 7 days a week to live in a good school district and afford piano lessons for your child, so be it. And there are no complaints. I've never really heard the works "I love you" from my parents - but their actions speak for themselves. It's just a totally different mindset, but not necessarily wrong or right. Just different. (and not one that I necessarily subscribe to.)


I just saw Chua being interviewed on CNN last night. She does emphasize that 1) the book was a memoir, not a manual, 2) the book is about HER journey, and that early on she says she uses the term "Chinese Mother" very loosely, 3) that although her parents were very strict, they were also very loving. Those things pretty much put the whole thing in context for me. Now whether this whole media storm was because of WSJ's fancy editing or a brilliant marketing ploy on Chua's part, I don't know, but I for one will be looking for the book when it's out, because I'm very interested to know how she finally got her comeuppance from her younger daughter:p

She also said that this isn't so much Chinese, or even Asian, as it is immigrant. I do think that sometimes if you aren't child of immigrants, it can be hard to understand a certain mindset that comes with growing up in two worlds. There are a lot of things Chua talks about that while I don't consider abusive, other people might consider terribly inappropriate. It's just very hard to explain to people why we understand that she does love her daughters very much, even though we would never go to the same lengths as her. I think that's the major objection I hear among my Asian friends, is the degree to which she carries her methods, not so much the principles behind them. Because to a certain extent we agree with small mechanics (drilling, rote repetition, working hard even if you don't want to, do what I say because I'm the parent).

I can also relate to Bruin's comment that immigrant parents will help their kids succeed at any cost. But they go about it in different ways. For example, I see on this board many examples of parents intervening for their child if the teacher is doing something they are very unhappy with. Now I'm not 100% sure about my friends, but I know in my entire K-12 career my dad went to talk to a teacher ONCE, simply because he disagreed with the way the teacher scored tests. Otherwise my parents NEVER intervened. Basically their attitude was, the teacher is the teacher, and your job is to do what they say, follow their rules. Many immigrant parents are still like this. I used to hear it all the time when I was a teacher, the parents would come to me during conferences, inquire about how their kid was doing, ask me to let them know if the kid was slacking off or acting up in class. It was incredible really, because this was a fancy prep school, and I had very few behavior issues. If I had any complaints about my being unfair it was always from Western parents. Now I hasten to say that I really DON'T think there is anything wrong with intervening for your child, if you feel justified. It's just from a different cultural model. A lot of immigrant parents do other things to help their kids succeed. Mainly what they do (imo) is pour all of their investments into education, including educational extra-curriculars. Something like playing piano and violin is considered part of one's education, not a mere extra-curricular that you do for fun. I mentioned earlier that my parents sacrificed a lot, including retirement security to ensure my siblings and I had the education possible. As they saw it, they didn't have money for both, so by investing in our education, they might've increased their chances for not having to worry too much about retirement.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble here, so I'll stop.

[mamicka]

She also said that this isn't so much Chinese, or even Asian, as it is immigrant. I do think that sometimes if you aren't child of immigrants, it can be hard to understand a certain mindset that comes with growing up in two worlds. There are a lot of things Chua talks about that while I don't consider abusive, other people might consider terribly inappropriate. It's just very hard to explain to people why we understand that she does love her daughters very much, even though we would never go to the same lengths as her. I think that's the major objection I hear among my Asian friends, is the degree to which she carries her methods, not so much the principles behind them. Because to a certain extent we agree with small mechanics (drilling, rote repetition, working hard even if you don't want to, do what I say because I'm the parent).
I really agree with this :yeahthat: (although I'm not sure about the love part)
I can also relate to Bruin's comment that immigrant parents will help their kids succeed at any cost. But they go about it in different ways. For example, I see on this board many examples of parents intervening for their child if the teacher is doing something they are very unhappy with. Now I'm not 100% sure about my friends, but I know in my entire K-12 career my dad went to talk to a teacher ONCE, simply because he disagreed with the way the teacher scored tests. Otherwise my parents NEVER intervened. Basically their attitude was, the teacher is the teacher, and your job is to do what they say, follow their rules. Many immigrant parents are still like this. I used to hear it all the time when I was a teacher, the parents would come to me during conferences, inquire about how their kid was doing, ask me to let them know if the kid was slacking off or acting up in class. It was incredible really, because this was a fancy prep school, and I had very few behavior issues. If I had any complaints about my being unfair it was always from Western parents. Now I hasten to say that I really DON'T think there is anything wrong with intervening for your child, if you feel justified. It's just from a different cultural model. A lot of immigrant parents do other things to help their kids succeed. Mainly what they do (imo) is pour all of their investments into education, including educational extra-curriculars. Something like playing piano and violin is considered part of one's education, not a mere extra-curricular that you do for fun. I mentioned earlier that my parents sacrificed a lot, including retirement security to ensure my siblings and I had the education possible. As they saw it, they didn't have money for both, so by investing in our education, they might've increased their chances for not having to worry too much about retirement.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble here, so I'll stop.

Great post. I can relate to it more as an immigrant parent thing than a Chinese parent thing. My parents aren't Chinese, but I'm first generation US-born & my dad used many of these principles in our upbringing. Sometimes I think it veered into abuse but not nearly as much as Chua. But in his experience, it was what he knew. & when he was a kid these things became life-or-death situations. I mean, he lived through (literally) the WWII front in his village, hiding from soldiers in piles of manure, & only being aloud to go to school (in a "foreign" language no less) if you were the best - & it was a privelege to go even though you'd be abused by your teachers. I mean, from that being your frame of reference my dad was the most loving parent I could imagine. I guess what suprises me at this point is - she was born in the US, right? Why is she using these horrible methods? Why does she still have her parents eyes? Even my dad, who I thought would never change, has adjusted his way of thinking to be more balanced & he didn't come here until he was 30. I don't get it.

[MamaMolly]

It's "boring" because no one would be shocked or raise an eyebrow at those parts. Not provocative nor is it different than what happens in Western parenting. If she wrote a book about how much fun she has with her kids, no one would read it cuz what would be the point?

My point is that Ms Chua is highly educated. She has a great vocabulary. I think she's smart enough to speak for herself. If she meant that it was not provocative, she'd have said that. She said that it was boring and she meant it was boring. And you are right, it may not sell books, but I for one take her at her word.

[american_mama]

Lastly, I would like to point, that I am an American, first and foremost. My ancestors may have come from a different continent than yours, but I am American. Please don't lump me with people from Asia just because I look different. :)


Did I do this? If so, I am sorry. I certainly didn't mean American as a synonym of white, if that's what you were thinking. The author herself was either born in the US or raised in the US most of her life, presumably an American citizen, but she is emphasizing the Chinese and "Chinese" way (as in people who are "not-ethnicially-Chinese-or-not-solely-Chinese-but-acting-in-a-Chinese-way-so-I-am-calling-them"Chinese") in her story. It made it hard for me to discuss the issues in reference to her article without using her same terms. In other contexts, I try to be more precise with ethnic, racial and national terms.

No offense meant, just a desire to continue the discussion about this topic.

[maestramommy]

I guess what surprises me at this point is - she was born in the US, right? Why is she using these horrible methods? Why does she still have her parents eyes? Even my dad, who I thought would never change, has adjusted his way of thinking to be more balanced & he didn't come here until he was 30. I don't get it.

Well, it looks like she came here to the States when she was 1. So technically she is 2nd generation, (give or take a few months:p) but you could make a case for 1.5 if her upbringing was very much traditional, AND suited to her personality. As to the rest of your question, that's why I really want to read the book. She said that with her first daughter, everything went smoothly with her methods. Her 2nd daughter was another story. Apparently she rebelled big time, and it came to a head when she was 13. It got so bad Chua finally had to readjust her thinking or risk losing her daughter (her words, more or less) and tearing apart the family. It sounds like the book is really about how she came to realize certain truths in parenting, truths that many of us here, already claim and espouse, but for whatever reason just didn't occur to her.

[mamicka]

Well, it looks like she came here to the States when she was 1. So technically she is 2nd generation, (give or take a few months:p) but you could make a case for 1.5 if her upbringing was very much traditional, AND suited to her personality. As to the rest of your question, that's why I really want to read the book. She said that with her first daughter, everything went smoothly with her methods. Her 2nd daughter was another story. Apparently she rebelled big time, and it came to a head when she was 13. It got so bad Chua finally had to readjust her thinking or risk losing her daughter (her words, more or less) and tearing apart the family. It sounds like the book is really about how she came to realize certain truths in parenting, truths that many of us here, already claim and espouse, but for whatever reason just didn't occur to her.

I'd love to hear your thoughts after reading the book. I'd like to say I'll read it but I'm being realistic - I won't have time.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

Well, it looks like she came here to the States when she was 1. So technically she is 2nd generation, (give or take a few months:p)

How does that work anyways? If you were born outside the US and you move to the US, you are 1st generation? And then the children born here are 2nd generation? I thought the "1st generation" is the kids born here. So confusing! :)

Thank you Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_generations)


First generation immigrant
The term first generation immigrant may be used to describe either of two generation [1] classes of people:
An immigrant to a country, possibly with the caveat that they must be naturalized to receive this title.
The children of immigrant parents, first in a family line to be born in the new country.
As with most terms about human identity, it is difficult to find clear consensus on this meaning of the term [2]. Many users do not recognize ambiguity in the term, however, due to their own disposition or an unambiguous familial or colloquial use for it.

Second generation immigrant
The ambiguity of this term extends to the term "second generation immigrant," which may refer to the first generation born in the new country, or the first generation born to parents who were themselves born in the new country. Incidentally, the less common term 1.5 generation was unambiguously coined to refer to those who immigrate early in life, thus remaining consistent to the notion that "first generation" refers to immigrants themselves, and "second generation" refers to the first generation of a family born in the new country.

[smiles33]

GAPeach: I always say I'm a second-generation American, meaning I was born in the US to parents who immigrated to this country. My parents are the first generation of our entire family line to be Americans (naturalized) so I thought that made sense that they're first-gen Americans and we're second-gen Americans. Not sure why there's still ambiguity per Wikipedia's definition, especially since 1.5 gen is commonly used for those who immigrate during childhood.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

Thanks smiles! That would make my husband 1.5 since he moved to the US when he was 10. I've actually never heard that before. Go figure. :)

[wellyes]

I have always understood "first generation" to refer to US-born children of immigrants, never heard the other meaning. I still prefer my version (heh, doesn't everyone?) Generation refers to birth, right?

[maestramommy]

Wow, wiki explains it pretty well! I only started meeting 1.5 generation kids in large number when we moved to SoCal. Previously I had only met 2nd generation, or people who came for college/grad school and were staying. They tend to consider themselves first generation since non of their "growing up" years were spent here.

My dad told me that 1.5 generation usually came here around age 13 (give or take), so that by adulthood they still retain fluency of the first language, but speak English well enough to grasp use of current expressions, idiom, slang. However, I find that depending on where they grow up, there is a WIDE range to ease of use with English. One of my college roommates moved to the States when she was 10 or so, grew up in Bethesda, MD, yet when she took notes in class, there was a lot of Chinese written in the margins and she had a translation dictionary with her at all times. She may be unique though. She and her bro were "parachute" kids, and probably didn't socialize all that much.

[kozachka]

New h (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/fashion/16Cultural.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp)about Amy Chua, aka Tiger Mother, in New York Times. Apparently, "Her narration, she said, was meant to be ironic and self-mocking".

[wellyes]

I feel bad for that woman -I saw a review of her book before the WSJ editorial came out and it was always clear to me that she was, in her writing, being as hard on herself as she is on her kids. There was an element if self-lacerating in her writing and to get made into a villain because of it is salt on the wound.

[hellokitty]

Wow, wiki explains it pretty well! I only started meeting 1.5 generation kids in large number when we moved to SoCal. Previously I had only met 2nd generation, or people who came for college/grad school and were staying. They tend to consider themselves first generation since non of their "growing up" years were spent here.

My dad told me that 1.5 generation usually came here around age 13 (give or take), so that by adulthood they still retain fluency of the first language, but speak English well enough to grasp use of current expressions, idiom, slang. However, I find that depending on where they grow up, there is a WIDE range to ease of use with English. One of my college roommates moved to the States when she was 10 or so, grew up in Bethesda, MD, yet when she took notes in class, there was a lot of Chinese written in the margins and she had a translation dictionary with her at all times. She may be unique though. She and her bro were "parachute" kids, and probably didn't socialize all that much.

I think the kids who are 1.5 gen can fall kind of in btwn sometimes. Some seem to acclimate to english and american culture more easily, others seem to be more stuck in the way that 1st gen think. For example, my DH immigrated here with his family from south korea when he was about 7. I think he acclimated to the US pretty well (they moved to a very rural area), but he didn't know a lick of english, so they had to hold him back a yr. For the most part, he thinks/acts like a 2nd gen (I'm 2nd gen, born and raised here in the US), BUT you can kind of tell sometimes that he's not. His parents' english is really bad, so he HAS to speak korean to them, and I think that this plays into it as well. He says when he dreams, it's still all in korean, when he does math, it's all in korean, sometimes his thoughts on things sound more 1st gen than 2nd gen. His brother was about 11 when they immigrated and he has a weird accent. I don't know if everyone would notice it, but it's like you can tell he was not born here, BUT his english is decent enough that most ppl wouldn't question it, I just think it's kind of odd sounding. His brother is raising his kids much more similar (cram school, piano/violin, only wants his kids to be doctors/lawyers, even though he has been very successful in business, etc.) to how 1st gen asian americans raise their kids. He also married a woman who would be consider 1st gen korean american (she didn't move here until her late 20's), and my sil is still very much korean, but with a less rigid attitude than say my mil/fil, b/c she is younger and less formal in all of the traditional korean etiquette, etc.. They were completely shocked that we didn't have our kids' scheduled in like 10 different activities for every single free moment of the day. Bil's already putting a LOT of pressure on his kids and DH and I kind of feel bad for our niece and nephew, I think their childhood will resemble more of a 2nd gen, rather 3rd gen asian american kids. However, they are nowhere as cruel with the put downs as a lot of 1st gen asian americans are with their kids.

I had several cousins who were kind of parachute kids. Sent by my aunts to live with us. They are technically 1.5 gen, but act like 1st gen. NEVER lost the asian accent and still are not quite 100% aware of american culture. My siblings and I find it difficult to socialize with them, b/c it's kind of like hanging out with my parents, they don't get american humor, and seem really stiff and serious. HOWEVER, I've noticed that a LOT of this has to do with the parents' choice on the language spoken in the house. I feel as if my relatives/friends whose parents have poor english, so req'd their children to only speak their ethnic language at home, tend to have children who could not lose their asian accent and/or they tend to process things more like a 1st gen asian american. I also know some kids who came to the US quite late (middle school aged) and adapted incredibly, lost their asian accent within a yr, and totally submerged themselves into american culture w/o any issues.