Catholicism question

[DietCokeLover]

I was just watching the morning news shows and one had an interview with a former priest who left the Catholic church and became Episcopalian because he wanted to marry.

He made an offhand comment as the interview was ending that he disagreed with some other practices of the Catholic church (in addition to the no marrying rule) and he said that he had to "turn away women from communion who had their tubes tied".

I have never heard this before. Is this common practice within the Catholic church?

I'm not trying to start any right/ wrong debate, I was really just curious.

[Green_Tea]

I believe that the Catholic church objects to any method of impeding conception other than abstinence, so yes, women who have had their tubes tied are at odds with the church. (also, vasectomies, BCP, condoms, IUD - all against Catholic doctrine.)

It's one of the reasons *I* am at odds with the Catholic church.

[oneontheway]

Wow, that sounds crazy. I am catholic but times do change and the church, in my opinion, needs to adapt.

[Gena]

This is not entirely accurate.

In the Catholic faith, anyone who has committed a mortal sin is not supposed to receive communion without going to confession first. To be considered a mortal sin it must: 1) Be a grave (serious) matter; 2) Be committed with full and complete knowledge of the act and the sinfullness; and 3) Be committed deliberately and with complete consent.

So then there two questiosn come up: Is it a mortal sin for a woman to have her tubes tied? and Did she go to confession?

First the question of is it a mortal sin: The Catholic Church does consider artificial birth control a grave matter, so it could be a mortal sin. Did the woman know it was a mortal sin and fully undserstand the Church's teaching? Maybe. maybe not. Perhaps she was poorly catechised or perhaps she was not a Catholic at the time. Was the act done deliberately and with her complete consent? If she was under a lot of pressure from her husband or her doctors, her ability to give completely free consent may have been compromised.

So while objectively, getting your tubes tied is a mortal sin, the circumstances of each woman's individual situation needs to be considered.

Then there is the question of did the woman confess this sin? Even if her local/parish priest knows that she had her tubes tied, can he be certain that she did not go to confession with a different priest?

In most cases, an individual priest cannot know all these details. So in most cases, a priest would not withhold communion.

If it is a situation where an individual is openly and deliberately defiant to a teaching of the Catholic Church, then it is proper to deny communion.

[DietCokeLover]

Thank you Gena, that was very informative.

[kijip]

It is worth noting that nearly 80% of American Catholic women use birth control of some form that is not in line with the church's present teachings- including condoms, the pill, all other contraceptives and elective sterilizations. This includes those who attend church services on a fairly regular basis.

Two generations ago, even selective abstinence in marriage to reduce the chances of pregnancy was considered a serious matter which could be a sin by the church. That is no longer the case. My grandmother spaced her kids out about 2 years by sleeping apart from her husband until baby's first birthday- she had 9 kids in all. She and my grandfather were considered to be in fact committing a sin with this arrangement. But they did what felt the best to them, she had hard pregnancies and did not think she could handle 2 in a years time. At this time, I would be hard pressed to find a priest IRL who would deem this a sin, much less a mortal sin.

[codex57]

So the church is adapting.

The birth control thing is a minor reason why I can't be Catholic. My two biggies are the pope being infallible (dude being elected is a big part of why I can't reconcile it) and the Virgin Mary basically being worshipped.

[Gena]

My two biggies are the pope being infallible (dude being elected is a big part of why I can't reconcile it) and the Virgin Mary basically being worshipped.

I don't have the time or energy to give long explanations right now, but these are probably the two most misunderstood doctrines of the Catholic Church. :(

[kep]

I don't have the time or energy to give long explanations right now, but these are probably the two most misunderstood doctrines of the Catholic Church. :(

Exactly. And what a nice job of explaining the original question, Gena. The Catholic Church's teachings have not adapted to keep with the times. People may have changed, but the basic fundamental teachings of the church remain. They are the same now as they have been forever. The Catholic Church is not trying to keep women down with the BC issue. The Church's stance is to always protect life in all it's forms, from conception to natural death.

[g-mama]

... and the Virgin Mary basically being worshipped.

This is one of the things I love about the Catholic church. It bothers me when I go to a Protestant service that there is no mention of Mary. She is an extremely important figure in our faith, and in my life, in particular.

Diff'rent strokes...

[codex57]

I don't have the time or energy to give long explanations right now, but these are probably the two most misunderstood doctrines of the Catholic Church. :(

I'm not totally uninformed on it. My dad was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic Church for a while. Was baptized as a baby, did the Communion class, etc. Asked about it then. I get their explanation. Doesn't jive with me with what I see in actual practice.

That's not a dig against Catholicism. I still identify as Christian. Even Protestant. However, I don't identify as any specific denomination cuz I generally have issues with some central tenant or practice that a denomination espouses.

[edurnemk]

When DH and I attended pre-marital talks at our Catholic Church, the two priests there said that the Second Vatican Council, which is where they talked about artificial BC, is very vague. It's clear in this council that natural family planning is OK. These two priests expressed that their view is that the intention is what matters and thus certain forms of artificial BC are OK. They said mostly to avoid the IUD since some people suspect it can be abortive, but that BCP, condoms, etc. are OK. I know not all orders in the Church share this view, but I share this to exemplify that it is not so black and white as "having to deny communion to a woman who had her tubes tied".

Having said that, I do have big ideological differences with the Catholic Church now. But I think a lot of issues about it are misunderstood.

[Kindra178]

This is one of the things I love about the Catholic church. It bothers me when I go to a Protestant service that there is no mention of Mary. She is an extremely important figure in our faith, and in my life, in particular.

Diff'rent strokes...

This is one of main reasons I stay committed to the Catholic Church.

[amldaley]

This is one of main reasons I stay committed to the Catholic Church.

:yeahthat:

I LOVE the tradition, the mass steeped in ritual. It is cathartic for me. And reverence for Mary is special to me, now especially as a mother.

[Lolabee]

In the Catholic faith, anyone who has committed a mortal sin is not supposed to receive communion without going to confession first. To be considered a mortal sin it must: 1) Be a grave (serious) matter; 2) Be committed with full and complete knowledge of the act and the sinfullness; and 3) Be committed deliberately and with complete consent.

So then there two questiosn come up: Is it a mortal sin for a woman to have her tubes tied? and Did she go to confession?

I know I'm probably about to upset some people with this response, and that isn't necessarily my intention, but as someone who was raised in a strong Catholic tradition and eventually left the Church I just can't let it go.

It is true that the Church considers artificial birth control to be a mortal sin, as it does with any form of ART (artificial reproductive technology.) It's also true that the Church technically requires that this sin be confessed in the confessional and that absolution be done prior to receiving communion. Furthermore, the confession and absolution is supposed to be undertaken each time the sin is done, so every time you use your diaphragm or take the pill or if you get your tubes tied. Ditto for say taking Clomid or using other injectible drugs for inducing ovulation or for using IVF.

But here's the thing, many, many of us Catholics disagree that these things are truly a sin and therefore refuse to confess them as sinful behavior or undertake absolution to absolve ourselves. Pope Benedict has been very firm (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6BK4Z120101221) in holding the line on this issue and shows no signs of backing down. Any priest who knows that a parishioner is in a sinful state without having received confession and having undertaken absolution is required to deny him or her communion. Despite all of this, a huge percentage of Catholics feel free to disregard the Pope's stance on issues like birth control and still take communion anyway.

[kep]

But here's the thing, many, many of us Catholics disagree that these things are truly a sin and therefore refuse to confess them as sinful behavior or undertake absolution to absolve ourselves. Pope Benedict has been very firm (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6BK4Z120101221) in holding the line on this issue and shows no signs of backing down. Any priest who knows that a parishioner is in a sinful state without having received confession and having undertaken absolution is required to deny him or her communion. Despite all of this, a huge percentage of Catholics feel free to disregard the Pope's stance on issues like birth control and still take communion anyway.

I hear what you are saying. Receiving communion while knowingly having committed a mortal sin has grave consequences. The priest may allow you to receive communion either because he is lax in his duties, or he may perhaps not know of the situation that would prevent reception, but that does not mean it is okay. The priest's actions do not excuse the person who is receiving in error. They will still have to stand accountable for what they have done, and the decisions they have made.

It is not up to the priest's interpretation to decide what is acceptable in regards to explicit Church Teaching. (That is in response to the two priest's comments on contraception.) The only form of BC permitted by the church is NFP. Nothing else. Avoiding pregnancy is perfectly fine according to the church for reasons such as finances, (not being able to properly care/feed for a family, not wanting extra vacations, a nicer house, etc.), health reasons, etc.

One major misconception about the Church is the apparent "Cafeteria Catholics". The Catholic Church does not allow for people to pick and choose which aspects of the Faith they want to believe in or participate in. Last time I checked, no one was forced to be Catholic. If you join and participate in the church, you are saying that you accept the teachings and traditions that the church has laid out. If you do not like the Catholic faith, there are thousands of other churches and faiths available to choose from.

And Katie, just because a large number of people are not abiding by the church's teachings (re: birth control) does not mean that the teachings are not valid or important. I promise you that a large number of faithful "traditional" Catholics are abiding by the Church's stance on contraception. And like I said above, there are always consequences for our actions. You may be able to "get away with it" here on earth with seemingly few consequences, but I guarantee there will be repercussions later on.

God has laid out the "rules" and guidelines through the Church's teachings and traditions not to be a mean God or one who doesn't want us to participate in life or have fun, but he lays these things out for us to protect us and keep us safe, just like a parent protects a child.

[kep]

Furthermore, the confession and absolution is supposed to be undertaken each time the sin is done, so every time you use your diaphragm or take the pill or if you get your tubes tied. Ditto for say taking Clomid or using other injectible drugs for inducing ovulation or for using IVF.


I also wanted to add that part of receiving absolution from the Priest is firmly absolving not to repeat the sin. Simply removing the diaphragm or discontinuing the pill long enough to go to confession and be "cleared" for communion does not count. It violates the spirit and intention of confession, and I believe would invalidate the absolution.

Most confessions end with the Act of Contrition (http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/contrit.htm), which is as follows:

O my God,
I am heartily sorry for
having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins,
because I dread the loss of heaven,
and the pains of hell;
but most of all because
they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and
deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace,
to confess my sins,
to do penance,
and to amend my life.

Amen

[Nicsmom]

If it is a situation where an individual is openly and deliberately defiant to a teaching of the Catholic Church, then it is proper to deny communion.

Which makes the initial statement accurate, priests in the Catholic Church may deny communion to a woman for having her tubes tied or for having birth control. Because, really, how many women have birth control or have their tubes tied under a lot of pressure or without their consent? And if they are "deliberately defiant" , how common is for Catholic women to confess that sin? And to never do it again after they confess? Because confession has to involve not only the act of contrition and the confession to the priest, but also doing penance and, more important, sin no more.

I was raised Catholic and I studied in a very strict Catholic school and I learned from a very early age that using any form of artificial birth control was a sin. I am not a practicing Catholic anymore but most (if not all) of my Catholic friends ignore this teaching of the Catholic Church.

[lizzywednesday]

I also wanted to add that part of receiving absolution from the Priest is firmly absolving not to repeat the sin. Simply removing the diaphragm or discontinuing the pill long enough to go to confession and be "cleared" for communion does not count. It violates the spirit and intention of confession, and I believe would invalidate the absolution.

Most confessions end with the Act of Contrition (http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/contrit.htm), which is as follows:

O my God,
I am heartily sorry for
having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins,
because I dread the loss of heaven,
and the pains of hell;
but most of all because
they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and
deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace,
to confess my sins,
to do penance,
and to amend my life.

Amen

That's one variation of the Act of Contrition; it's my understanding that there are quite a few variants!

The one I was taught in Catholic grammar school was much shorter & less flowery but has the same gist (the gist being "I confess that I have sinned, I understand that it was wrong, but I won't do it again and, with Your help, I'll not sin again") and I've been saying it at Confession since I was 8 years old.

[kep]

There are several slight variations, but they all include the same points, remorse for the sin(s) committed, and a firm resolution to sin no more.

And to use a loose analogy, just because a large number of drivers exceed the posted speed limit at any given time does not mean that the police are not going to give you a ticket for breaking the law. It's still wrong.

[Kindra178]

I hear what you are saying. Receiving communion while knowingly having committed a mortal sin has grave consequences. The priest may allow you to receive communion either because he is lax in his duties, or he may perhaps not know of the situation that would prevent reception, but that does not mean it is okay. The priest's actions do not excuse the person who is receiving in error. They will still have to stand accountable for what they have done, and the decisions they have made.

It is not up to the priest's interpretation to decide what is acceptable in regards to explicit Church Teaching. (That is in response to the two priest's comments on contraception.) The only form of BC permitted by the church is NFP. Nothing else. Avoiding pregnancy is perfectly fine according to the church for reasons such as finances, (not being able to properly care/feed for a family, not wanting extra vacations, a nicer house, etc.), health reasons, etc.

One major misconception about the Church is the apparent "Cafeteria Catholics". The Catholic Church does not allow for people to pick and choose which aspects of the Faith they want to believe in or participate in. Last time I checked, no one was forced to be Catholic. If you join and participate in the church, you are saying that you accept the teachings and traditions that the church has laid out. If you do not like the Catholic faith, there are thousands of other churches and faiths available to choose from.

And Katie, just because a large number of people are not abiding by the church's teachings (re: birth control) does not mean that the teachings are not valid or important. I promise you that a large number of faithful "traditional" Catholics are abiding by the Church's stance on contraception. And like I said above, there are always consequences for our actions. You may be able to "get away with it" here on earth with seemingly few consequences, but I guarantee there will be repercussions later on.

God has laid out the "rules" and guidelines through the Church's teachings and traditions not to be a mean God or one who doesn't want us to participate in life or have fun, but he lays these things out for us to protect us and keep us safe, just like a parent protects a child.

Not trying to argue as I really have to go back to work. But Vatican II was built around the People of God. The fact that Benedict is trying to move away from that is another discussion. Benedict wants a smaller Church and he may very well get his wish. Free will and choice has always been a tenet of the Catholic Church thereby allowing so-called Cafeteria Catholics.

[Lolabee]

One major misconception about the Church is the apparent "Cafeteria Catholics". The Catholic Church does not allow for people to pick and choose which aspects of the Faith they want to believe in or participate in. Last time I checked, no one was forced to be Catholic. If you join and participate in the church, you are saying that you accept the teachings and traditions that the church has laid out. If you do not like the Catholic faith, there are thousands of other churches and faiths available to choose from.

And Katie, just because a large number of people are not abiding by the church's teachings (re: birth control) does not mean that the teachings are not valid or important. I promise you that a large number of faithful "traditional" Catholics are abiding by the Church's stance on contraception. And like I said above, there are always consequences for our actions. You may be able to "get away with it" here on earth with seemingly few consequences, but I guarantee there will be repercussions later on.

God has laid out the "rules" and guidelines through the Church's teachings and traditions not to be a mean God or one who doesn't want us to participate in life or have fun, but he lays these things out for us to protect us and keep us safe, just like a parent protects a child.

Well, the flip side of the parental metaphor is that many of us who were raised Catholic feel very much hurt and betrayed when, for example, the Church tells us that we are unwelcome as sinners for using IVF for conceiving our children (another circumstance among many others that falls into this metaphor is when one is expected to deny his or her's sexuality in the case of homosexuals.) It is akin to being disowned by one's parents for doing something we personally feel God does not consider to be sinful and then being told that we will not be welcomed back until we not only admit we are wrong but that we also make it up before we can come back home.

The parent-child relationship is one that evolves as the years go by and as the child reaches adulthood. Hopefully, both the parent and the child will learn and grow from the relationship and additional enlightment and knowledge will be gained from the experiences garnered over those years. I would submit to you that the Catholic Church would be well served to further evolve where many of these issues are concerned (which it most certainly has done in other areas, such as with the decision that women no longer have to cover their heads during mass, that they can participate in the liturgy or that the mass no longer be said only in Latin, and this is certainly not exhaustive of the changes seen in the Church over the last 100 or so years.) The Pope and the Catholic leadership have had many years to learn and grow in their knowledge and in their relationship with their flock, and this process should continue instead of remaining static and inflexible.

[Lolabee]

Not trying to argue as I really have to go back to work. But Vatican II was built around the People of God. The fact that Benedict is trying to move away from that is another discussion. Benedict wants a smaller Church and he may very well get his wish. Free will and choice has always been a tenet of the Catholic Church thereby allowing so-called Cafeteria Catholics.

:yeahthat: Very well said.

[kep]

Not to split hairs, but free will and choice are not referring to the building blocks/fundamentals of the faith. It usually refers to God's will and sin. Also, the church was not built for the people as you were saying, but as a means for the peoplento receive God's grace and forgiveness, live in communion with him through the sacraments, and one day life forever with Him in heaven.

[kijip]

And Katie, just because a large number of people are not abiding by the church's teachings (re: birth control) does not mean that the teachings are not valid or important.

I agree with you 100%.

And that is why me and thousands of other Catholics have chosen to leave the Catholic church. But frankly, I don't know of an archdiocese not struggling with stagnant and declining memberships or any that are reporting growing numbers of people entering religious life...the church has changed in the past (that whole no abstinence thing for birth control) when they reached a point where they could not sustain themselves well and they will continue to do so. In my area, married deacons are now having to be involved in much of the work that previously would have been done by priests and a whole generation of priests who were largely transfered from Italy and Ireland are retiring. When I was very little, I never saw a woman serve on the altar. Now it seems most of those helping with communion at a few churches I have attended are women- just 20 years ago this was rare and in fact not allowed in most churched. Given my background, I have a lot of friends who have entered the priesthood in the Episcopalian church. Most of those were either raised Catholic OR have parents who were raised Catholic. I know of 1 new Catholic priest within 10 years of my age group. This problem will only get worse as the generations go on.

On this board, I have received negative comments about my faith from more conservative Catholics but then seen on other threads these same people mention presently using birth control. This matches up with what I seen IRL, even from conservative Catholics.

Judging by the massive amounts of attempts made to invite me back to the Catholic church I left, the church seems aware that they are losing ground rapidly in the US. I don't think that means they should change. But I do think it means in time, we will see further changes. But they will have to be without me, I have no stomach for rationalizing myself into going along with stuff I can not personally support in my efforts to try to be a moral person.

[Roni]

So the church is adapting.

The birth control thing is a minor reason why I can't be Catholic. My two biggies are the pope being infallible (dude being elected is a big part of why I can't reconcile it) and the Virgin Mary basically being worshipped.

I don't really want to jump into this discussion, but I just want to explain what I have learned about these two issues. As a pp stated, these are very misunderstood issues, especially by people who have never been Catholic. (Codex, I think you probably have a handle on the issues, & I respect your right to disagree, but others may not have heard these explanations.)

The Pope is only infallible in matters of faith and morals, and only when he is speaking "ex cathedra," which means something like "from the throne". It's only been used twice, I think. (So, in other words, in the 200-plus years of Church history popes have only played the "I'm infallible" card twice.) Being infallible doesn't mean he's perfect. The Pope is a descendent of the first Pope, Peter, and we all know how imperfect he was.

Aas for the Mary thing, I think that it's more reverence than worship. When we pray the Hail Mary, the first part is taken directly from the Bible. The second part is us asking Mary to pray for us. Mary, as the mother of Jesus, has a lot of influence on Him. So, IMO, she's a good one to go to to ask for intervention. She is the one who talked Jesus into peforming the miracle at Cana, which was before his supposed time. If you don't believe that people who have died can hear us when we pray to them, then it's a moot point, but if you do believe that, then asking Mary or any of the saints to pray for us is the same thing that we do when we ask our friends to pray for us.

As for the birth control issue, in reality I don't think most priests are policing what each woman's situation is. It probably can happen, but I don't see how a priest can assess someone's state, unless he knows that person really well. I do follow the Church's stance on birth control. It is not easy to do, and I understand the problems people have with it. I'm not going to say more on this subject because I don't think this is a good format for that. (Well, I do have to say that we had an NFP oops that has resulted in a beautiful little blessing who now wants my attention.)

[codex57]

I don't really want to jump into this discussion, but I just want to explain what I have learned about these two issues. As a pp stated, these are very misunderstood issues, especially by people who have never been Catholic. (Codex, I think you probably have a handle on the issues, & I respect your right to disagree, but others may not have heard these explanations.)

Wonderful explanations. That's basically how I'd explain it too. I still have issues with it, but that's just my personal issues dealing with faith and practice. I have similar issues with some major tenets of Protestant denominations, like I said earlier. Basically, after much thinking and reflection, I've come to the conclusion that while I believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, I can in good faith only belong to the codex denomination. Defining characteristics are still being developed. :) Basically, you either choose to accept and believe in God, or you don't. All the other stuff (like the pope being infallible, birth control, etc) is just minor variations of whether you believe or not. I choose to have faith. Which allows me to be pigeonholed as a Christian. Since I choose not to accept a lot of the other stuff, that just means I can't be identified as a Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran or whatever. All variations of the same basic thing: Christian.

[Kindra178]

I grew up in a Catholic parish that allowed female alter servers (I think I was about 8-9, so less than 30 years ago). Women have always been allowed to distribute communion, at least in my lifetime. Notwithstanding any official Church doctrine, a person's particular feelings and understandings about the religion may have to do with the parish they grew up with or are with now. In Chicagoland (not where I am from originally), the Church was considered "liberal" under Cardinal Bernadin. So many of my friends were living with their fiances before marriage, and many priests during precana counseling sessions said to them, "Abandon the guilt for the gift it has given you." I enjoy attending a major and extremely crowded liberal parish, which often has to have overflow Mass in the basement because the church is simply too crowded.