Westboro At It Again - human shield to block 9 yr old's funeral

[shawnandangel]

I am so happy that Arizona passed the law today that bans picketing at funerals. They still plan to picket along the procession route but people are organizing a human shield. I bet you the Freedom Riders show up as well.

I hate Westboro Baptist "Church". They disgust me and are despicable human beings. Shame on them for trying to capitalize on the death of a child!!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110111/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_picketing

[JBaxter]

Lets hope the Freedom Riders show up again.

[Krisrich]

They make me literally sick to my stomach.

[citymama]

They are unbelievable. What do they get out of picketing the funeral of a child? So sad. I am glad AZ passed the law as well. I wish they had made it more than a misdemeanor though.

[kijip]

I disagree with Westboro as much as the next sane person does, and I support these sorts of laws, but they are in fact an actual church, regardless of how obnoxious their theology.

[LMPC]

It takes a lot for me to believe that people aren't entitled to express their beliefs....but Westboro Baptist is revolting in their behavior. I hate even to say "Baptist" because I don't believe they hold true (what I believe and understand) to be Christian ideals. Appalling!

ETA: kijip, we posted at the same time. my comments were not meant as a reaction to yours.

[kristac]

They are unbelievable. What do they get out of picketing the funeral of a child? So sad. I am glad AZ passed the law as well. I wish they had made it more than a misdemeanor though.

Shock value. Publicity. Attention.

[malphy]

I don't get it. A poor innocent child was murdered and they have to use her to promote their agenda. They are no better than the shooter.

What kind of god would approve of this?!

My heart goes out to the victims of this senseless shooting.

I feel like jumping on a plane to join the human shield.

[BabyMine]

Shock value. Publicity. Attention.

That is all they want and we keep giving it to them.

[WolfpackMom]

Absolutely ridiculous and so sad.

The human shield is people holding 6 foot angel wings though, thats really awesome of those folks.

[WolfpackMom]

That is all they want and we keep giving it to them.

Its kind of a tough situation in that sense right? I mean we dont want to give them the attention and shock value that they want, but then again if word doesnt get out then they will be able to protest with no one trying to stop them and stand up for those they are trying to hurt.

[kijip]

ETA: kijip, we posted at the same time. my comments were not meant as a reaction to yours.

No, I totally get ya. :) I certainly don't like that I attend a church with the same word in the name (Baptist) as them, but there are different kinds of Baptist churches for sure. The one we attend is an open and affirming American Baptist Church with a partnered gay lead minister. I am quite certain Fred whatever he calls him self would picket our church, LOL.

[kijip]

The human shield is people holding 6 foot angel wings though, thats really awesome of those folks.

It was first done when they picketed Matthew Shepherd's funeral- the gay man who was tortured and killed in Wyoming while attending college.

[BabyMine]

Its kind of a tough situation in that sense right? I mean we dont want to give them the attention and shock value that they want, but then again if word doesnt get out then they will be able to protest with no one trying to stop them and stand up for those they are trying to hurt.

It's a no win situation. The human shield is a wonderful idea becasue it doesn't stoop down to their level. While I just want to go and punch them out it won't stop the brainwashed cult.

[kijip]

That is all they want and we keep giving it to them.

I disagree. These people have been around a long time. A long time. They were old news 10 years ago. By counter protesters, especially those with peaceful and clever or touching messages (angel wings), consistently out numbering them and showing the broader public just how marginal their fringe views really are, I think that they have kicked themselves in the butt by moving the public's opinion much further against them over time. No one takes these folks seriously anymore at all. When they showed up in Laramie, their views were not seen as extreme and hateful as they really were nor were they viewed as universally negative as they are now.

If they were ignored, I doubt they would go away.

[LMPC]

Yeah, when they were at Elizabeth Edwards' funeral here in Raleigh, there were many more counter protesters as well. And the media coverage seemed much more about that than the wacko from TX.

[kijip]

Yeah, when they were at Elizabeth Edwards' funeral here in Raleigh, there were many more counter protesters as well. And the media coverage seemed much more about that than the wacko from TX.

Wacko credit where wacko credit is due. These crazies are from Kansas. Not that they reflect on the rest of Kansas or that every state does not have their nuts. But... I guess I am kinda glad that these people do not hail from my birth state of Texas. ;)


I hear that they are from Texas a lot, seems there is a bit of Texas bias floating around. :)

[MamaSnoo]

These people have been around a long time. A long time. They were old news 10 years ago. By counter protesters, especially those with peaceful and clever or touching messages (angel wings), consistently out numbering them and showing the broader public just how marginal their fringe views really are, I think that they have kicked themselves in the butt by moving the public's opinion much further against them over time. No one takes these folks seriously anymore at all. When they showed up in Laramie, their views were not seen as extreme and hateful as they really were nor were they viewed as universally negative as they are now.

:yeahthat: I am glad things have changed enough that large numbers of people are willing to publically stand to say that the agenda of this church is not the general public's agenda.

They are, IMO, just bizzare and disgusting. I mean, what does a little 9 year old girl have to do with sex, gay or otherwise. She just wanted to meet her congresswoman to understand more about our democratic process. Seriously, it could have been any of our kids. It could have been any of the kids from that church too. The act was completely senseless and had nothing to do with God. You would think they would realize real evil when they see it.

[LMPC]

LMAO! Sorry TX, totally my bad! :bag

[vludmilla]

I disagree with Westboro as much as the next sane person does, and I support these sorts of laws, but they are in fact an actual church, regardless of how obnoxious their theology.

I am in no way arguing with what you've said because I believe you know what you are talking about but what exactly makes a church, an "actual" church anyway? Is it non profit status? Is it professing a belief in something religious? These are sincere questions but motivated in part because I react negatively to this kind of expression of belief (as most of us do).

Sorry if I got too OT...

[kijip]

I am in no way arguing with what you've said because I believe you know what you are talking about but what exactly makes a church, an "actual" church anyway? Is it non profit status? Is it professing a belief in something religious? These are sincere questions but motivated in part because I react negatively to this kind of expression of belief (as most of us do).


If the Duggars can have a legal church in their house then certainly this group, mostly also family, over 50 years old, can be a church. It is the price we pay for freedom of religion. There is a large hyper conservative mega church near me, that like this one started in someone's living room. Less than 15 years ago to boot. I don't agree with them at all and would be just as glad to see them cease to exist tomorrow, but is the fact that they are large make them more of a church than a very small church like Westboro or the Duggar family church? No.

In Baptist churches as I understand it, primary control rests with the church unit and not a larger conference. There are two main, large Baptist conferences: Southern Baptist and American Baptists. There are others as well but all are small. As far as I know, Westboro is not part of any conference. But to be a Baptist church, or for that matter any church, you don't need to be formally recognized by a denomination.

Also, while I know this is a controversial statement: many of the beliefs that Westboro preaches- intolerance, that homosexuality is a terrible sin and that further we are all be punished by God for accepting gay people, that the world is ending, tremendous hate and bias against Catholics and Orthodox traditions and the vehement belief that any tradition with progressive slant are not really Christians etc are ALL also taught by other some other, more mainstream, churches. It may be in a nicer way, but the same sort of hate gets packaged up in lots of different places. People may want to divorce themselves from the extreme delivery tactics of these folks, but I say that part of that is embarrassment for the ways that their beliefs join up with this fringe. Pat Robertson has so often said shockingly similar things about God's wrath being brought down through tragedies and weather calamities, it is hardly news at all. Haiti, 9-11, Katrina...I can go on. Sure Robertson is not the sort to be so vile as to picket a child's funeral. But is it the message or the delivery that is the real, root issue? I am with you, I react negatively to this stuff and don't support it in the least. I think these sorts of people give religion and Christianity a bad name, but like it or not, they come from the same roots as the very best that the Christian faith has to offer. I don't believing in calling something a cult just because it is reprehensible.

[DietCokeLover]

What kind of god would approve of this?!

Certainly not the God of the Bible they claim to serve. I firmly believe they will have quite the wake up call when the appear before God as they enter eternity.

[maestramommy]

Media whores. Plain and simple.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Media whores. Plain and simple.

Exactly and people need to stop paying attention to them so publicly. If horrible protests and such are being planned then leave it out of the media and handle it. Maybe they will go away if people stop putting them front and center on the news.

Beth

[daisymommy]

These people who call themselves Christians make me so sick I want to cry. And this is coming from a Christian. That so called church gives the rest of us a bad name. Shame on them. God is watching.

[ladysoapmaker]

You may be interested in this. http://www.kanewj.com/wbc/

Which the more I think about it, the more I agree with the article.

I also am appreciating the media that is starting to say the family that protests military funerals instead of WBC.

Jen

[amldaley]

Media whores. Plain and simple.

:yeahthat:

Westboro Baptist ADMITS that they are in this for the attention. They let go of professing religious ideology in their "protests". These aren't protests really, anyway, they are demonstrations, but that is a whole other discussion.

[KDsMommy]

You may be interested in this. http://www.kanewj.com/wbc/

Which the more I think about it, the more I agree with the article.

I also am appreciating the media that is starting to say the family that protests military funerals instead of WBC.

Jen

Great article...I totally agree.

[Carrots]

Nice article. Thanks for sharing.

There were rumors that they were coming to a funeral in my city for a soldier killed before Christmas by a suicide bomber in Afganistan. The mention of their name in the comment section of our local paper produced HUGE support by the public for the soldier's family as they exited the church and went to the burial. They Some Freedom Riders did come, but the WBC did not show. They went to another funeral in a different state.

I hate those WBC people.

[crayonblue]

Perhaps they can technically be called a church but they can technically be called a cult too:

"a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader."

[bubbaray]

Media here is reporting that the local police approached the Hells Angels and ASKED them to attend the funeral to block the "church". So, its not just the Freedom Riders who will be there.

I don't care if they are a "church" or not. They make me sick. It is a CHILD's funeral. Clearly not an appropriate place to protest.

[crayonblue]

I think these sorts of people give religion and Christianity a bad name, but like it or not, they come from the same roots as the very best that the Christian faith has to offer.

The very best that the Christian faith has to offer? The same roots? I completely 100% disagree with you.

[daisymommy]

I agree with Lana. While other Christian churches may not agree with homosexuality, a decent Christian church does not go around spewing messages of hate and death wishes to people, and picketing funerals. We are told in the Bible to "speak the truth in LOVE".

[KDsMommy]

Media here is reporting that the local police approached the Hells Angels and ASKED them to attend the funeral to block the "church". So, its not just the Freedom Riders who will be there.


that's awesome

[BabyMine]

They aren't going to protest.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/01/westboro_baptist_kooks_back_of.php



According to a report in the Topeka Capital-Journal (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_1935536e-1e6d-11e0-b0f9-001cc4c002e0.html), the group will skip Greene's funeral in Tucson on Thursday in exchange for air time on 102.1 The Edge in Toronto, Canada, and an
interview with KXXT-AM in Phoenix on Saturday morning.




http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_1935536e-1e6d-11e0-b0f9-001cc4c002e0.html



PHOENIX - Members of the Westboro Baptist Church won't picket Thursday's funeral of 9-year-old Christina-Taylor Green.
Church spokeswoman Shirley Phelps Roper told Capitol Media Services this morning she accepted an offer from the host of a Phoenix radio talk show for 30 minutes of air time on Saturday in exchange for removing that event from the list of protests.
"What we're doing is trying to be as smart as possible,'' she said. Roper said her congregation believes it can reach more people with the air time than it could with picketing a single funeral.
But Roper said plans remain in place for three other protests: the funeral of Judge John Roll, outside Tucson Magnet High School and at or near the site of the shooting. She said the offer of air time was insufficient to give up the publicity that would be generated from those events.
Talk show host Rick Sanchez acknowledged he is giving Roper a wider audience than she might reach directly with the protests, even with the coverage that might be generated from the group's "God Hates Fags'' signs. But he said that is preferable to having church members try to interfere with the grieving of the Green family.
"I can take a bullet for 30 minutes,'' he said. "It's a moral thing.''
This isn't Sanchez' first encounter with Roper. He had her on his show on KFNX last October.
"She's a real nut case,'' he said. "We know she's a hate-monger.''
But Sanchez said he knows the Scripture as well as anyone else. And he said he's prepared to debate her on her own terms.

[shawnandangel]

I love how the one article starts off with "The lunatics from. . ."

[ecofem]

I had heard reports that they were going to protest the Judge's funeral instead.... I don't find this any less offensive.

On a side-note... we have had the Patriot Guard Riders stand guard at one of our Firefighter's funerals (unfortunate line of duty death) and they were very respectful and generally cool folks.

[kijip]

The very best that the Christian faith has to offer? The same roots? I completely 100% disagree with you.

They have distorted and misused it and are are shame to those roots, but yeah, they use the bible and come from the same Christian movement as other Christian churches.

Labeling them a cult is like me calling food I find gross that other like to eat crap. Any religion could be deemed a cult by those that disagree with it. Plenty of people think some mainline churches are cults. Does not make it so.

[Fairy]

I disagree with Westboro as much as the next sane person does, and I support these sorts of laws, but they are in fact an actual church, regardless of how obnoxious their theology.

I'm sorry, Katie, but I could not possibly disagree with you more. I don't oppose churches and their freedom to be so, but this is not a church; it's hate speech using the guise of a church to get around the fact that their sole purpose is to hate. I know alot about this group. There's nothing Christian or churchly about them.

[Fairy]

Media here is reporting that the local police approached the Hells Angels and ASKED them to attend the funeral to block the "church". So, its not just the Freedom Riders who will be there.

I don't care if they are a "church" or not. They make me sick. It is a CHILD's funeral. Clearly not an appropriate place to protest.

And frankly, I don't know what the basis of this particular protest would be to them. What's their beef with a 9yo girl? Who played baseball?

[Fairy]

... but like it or not, they come from the same roots as the very best that the Christian faith has to offer. I don't believing in calling something a cult just because it is reprehensible.

No, they do not, Katie. I'm sorry, but they do not.

[kijip]

I'm sorry, Katie, but I could not possibly disagree with you more. I don't oppose churches and their freedom to be so, but this is not a church; it's hate speech using the guise of a church to get around the fact that their sole purpose is to hate. I know alot about this group. There's nothing Christian or churchly about them.

I think they are terrible Christians but it is frankly merely my opinion and my opinion matters very little as to if someone is a Christian or not. Westboro is a bible as literal truth outfit (though they seem to ignore much of the gospel).

[kijip]

No, they do not, Katie. I'm sorry, but they do not.

That is in fact the Bible which they are quoting from when they are not busy spewing epithets, right? They preach directly from the Bible. That is the same root. They are terrible and distort things terribly, but they use the same biblical justification for their hate as other Christians do to maintain that my brother is going to hell for simply being born gay. As an active churchgoer who comes from deeply Christian roots, I am appalled to have any overlapping heritage with them, but I do. They have missed the whole point of the gospel but they do have the same written and oral basis as other Christian churches.

[Fairy]

I think they are terrible Christians but it is frankly merely my opinion and my opinion matters very little as to if someone is a Christian or not. Westboro is a bible as literal truth outfit (though they seem to ignore much of the gospel).

I could deal with that. I can deal with people who believe being gay means hell and blah blah blah, whatever, they're not trying to spread hate, they're believing in their religion peacefully. I don't agree with them, but they have a right to have a belief. If someone wants to form a church that believes Wrigley Field is Mecca and the sitting in the Bleachers while reading Deuteronomy will bring you to Nirvana, fine, whatever, no skin off my nose. What I have a problem with is a group of people saying, hey, I know, since we all hate XYZ, let's call ourselves a church to spread our gospel -- that gospel being not Nirvana via baseball game, but hatred -- under the guise of Godliness. I don't consider that a protected freedom of religion.


That is in fact the Bible which they are quoting from when they are not busy spewing epithets, right? They preach directly from the Bible. That is the same root. They are terrible and distort things terribly, but they use the same biblical justification for their hate as other Christians do to maintain that my brother is going to hell for simply being born gay. As an active churchgoer who comes from deeply Christian roots, I am appalled to have any overlapping heritage with them, but I do. They have missed the whole point of the gospel but they do have the same written and oral basis as other Christian churches.

I don't believe for a minute that they're doing that. They're cleverly spewing hate. Yes, no one takes them seriously. The point is not that someone may listen to them but that they're allowed to disrupt funerals because they are protected under freedom of religion. And they're the fakest religious organization I've ever seen.

[crayonblue]

Katie- I have been a Christian since I was 8 years old. I have gone to many different churches in my 35 years. I have NEVER known anyone who believed or even heard anyone in my circle say that someone would go to hell because they were born gay. So, I honestly don't know what "Christians" you know or associate with.

Most Christians I know would say that a person goes to hell if they do not believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. This has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

The Westboro cult may spout Scripture but so did Satan when tempting Jesus.

[kijip]

Katie- I have been a Christian since I was 8 years old. I have gone to many different churches in my 35 years. I have NEVER known anyone who believed or even heard anyone in my circle say that someone would go to hell because they were born gay. So, I honestly don't know what "Christians" you know or associate with.

I will grant you that it is not often said or presented that way. But listening to people spout off on being gay (or "acting on being gay") as a terrible sin, I can guarantee that it comes with a clear, unspoken message to those who are gay or those who love and accept their gay family members. A message that you can't be a real Christian if you are a gay person. The pain caused by this teaching, which is merely a less obnoxious version of Westboro, is immense and the consequences are real.

[Fairy]

I will grant you that it is not often said or presented that way. But listening to people spout off on being gay (or "acting on being gay") as a terrible sin, I can guarantee that it comes with a clear, unspoken message to those who are gay or those who love and accept their gay family members. A message that you can't be a real Christian if you are a gay person. The pain caused by this teaching, which is merely a less obnoxious version of Westboro, is immense and the consequences are real.

Not that i"m defending them, but there's a difference between not accepting them and actioning hatred.

[kijip]

Yes, no one takes them seriously.

I think that their ideas are taken less and less seriously as the years go by and as they get more extreme in their methods but I do think that the heart of their message on homosexuality is shared in other, more accepted places. It was when they started up with the military funerals and the anti-USA stuff that people really came down on them. There was in fact more "understanding" of them and acceptance of their beliefs when they were primarily targeting the funerals of gay hate crime victims. They were no less reprehensible then, but public opinion on this matter has thankfully shifted and also, they became more aggressive in their target, specifically going after the military to rouse people's ire even more.

[JoyNChrist]

Katie- I have been a Christian since I was 8 years old. I have gone to many different churches in my 35 years. I have NEVER known anyone who believed or even heard anyone in my circle say that someone would go to hell because they were born gay. So, I honestly don't know what "Christians" you know or associate with.

Really? Can I ask what area of the country you live in?

I'm honestly curious, not trying to be argumentative, because I've heard this my whole life. Granted, I live in a very rural, conservative area. But I honestly don't know many Christians who don't believe that homosexuality is a sin (that people can't be born gay) and that homosexuals are likely going to hell.

I'm sorry, I know this is getting off topic, but I'm really interested in this because where I live, it seems that a whole lot of the Christian "identity" is tied up in particular beliefs that have little, if anything, to do with Jesus himself.

[kijip]

Not that i"m defending them, but there's a difference between not accepting them and actioning hatred.

Words can easily be and spark action, especially to a young gay church member. As shared here before, my brother was suicidal most of his teen years and this was in the most loving of Christian families, but the message taken was very negative and very powerful. And why my brother refuses to go to church, despite a deep belief in God.

[Fairy]

Words can easily be and spark action, especially to a young gay church member. As shared here before, my brother was suicidal most of his teen years and this was in the most loving of Christian families, but the message taken was very negative and very powerful. And why my brother refuses to go to church, despite a deep belief in God.

Come on, we're talking about two different things. Hate speech vs. the impact of truly protected speech that is otherwise stupid.

[kijip]

Come on, we're talking about two different things. Hate speech vs. the impact of truly protected speech that is otherwise stupid.

So there is some speech which is hate speech and it is bad. And there is some speech, which is hateful and causes people all sorts of pain and that is not good but it is not hate speech? This is exactly why I am ambivalent about hate crime laws.

I know that my position is a controversial one and I don't expect or care if people agree. But having seen the impact of this sort of hate up close and personal, I have a low tolerance for it no matter how it dresses up in the morning- Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson or John Q. Biblereader who lives next door and says that God hates homosexuality or my "grandmother" who lives in Orlando. Westboro may be the worst incarnation of it but it hardly the only incarnation of it.

[crayonblue]

Really? Can I ask what area of the country you live in?

I'm honestly curious, not trying to be argumentative, because I've heard this my whole life. Granted, I live in a very rural, conservative area. But I honestly don't know many Christians who don't believe that homosexuality is a sin (that people can't be born gay) and that homosexuals are likely going to hell.

I'm sorry, I know this is getting off topic, but I'm really interested in this because where I live, it seems that a whole lot of the Christian "identity" is tied up in particular beliefs that have little, if anything, to do with Jesus himself.

I'm on the east coast but I grew up in TX, the Bible belt of America.

Have these Christians that you know directly told you that they think homosexuals are going to hell? Or, are you assuming that because they believe homosexuality is a sin that they must believe they are going to hell?

I didn't say that Christians I know believe that homosexuality is perfectly fine with God. I said I don't know a single one who would say that gay people are going to hell for being gay.

There is a HUGE difference in believing that something is a sin and thinking it results in a straight ticket to fire and brimstone.

Disagreeing does NOT equal hate. Thinking something is a sin does NOT equal hate. If that is the case then you would have to say that all Christians must hate everyone who lies, who cheats, who is prideful, who boasts, who is angry, etc.

Respectfully leaving to go make dinner...

[Fairy]

So there is some speech which is hate speech and it is bad. And there is some speech, which is hateful and causes people all sorts of pain and that is not good but it is not hate speech?


Yes. That is right.

[kijip]

Yes. That is right.

And this is the agree to disagree spot. For me, it's wrong but largely protected no matter how you dice the onion. There is little real distinction even if it is more cleverly concealed and less out there than these nuts. In fact in my opinion, it is more dangerous when it is more concealed and appears less nutty. I would rather come face to face with someone from Westboro than someone better at hiding who they are.

[Lolabee]

Katie- I have been a Christian since I was 8 years old. I have gone to many different churches in my 35 years. I have NEVER known anyone who believed or even heard anyone in my circle say that someone would go to hell because they were born gay. So, I honestly don't know what "Christians" you know or associate with.

I'm also surprised to read this. There was just a poster here a week or so ago who said exactly this and I posted a response in opposition to what she said. If there were a way to easily look up old posts I would find it and PM it to you.

Edit: found it, will send you a PM.

[Fairy]

And this is the agree to disagree spot. For me, it's wrong but largely protected no matter how you dice the onion. There is little real distinction even if it is more cleverly concealed and less out there than these nuts. In fact in my opinion, it is more dangerous when it is more concealed and appears less nutty. I would rather come face to face with someone from Westboro than someone better at hiding who they are.

Supporting one's belief that it's wrong to be gay (or have anal sex or stand on your head while singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic) through peaceful interpretation of scripture is protected. And it shoudl be. I disagree with them, but they have the right to peacefully interpret their scripture as long as they're not saying, "and let's show them how much we hate them, too, and do something hateful about it. If members of that faith are hurt, oh well. Sorry. I feel bad for them, but they're not being terrorized. I know, I know, you feel the emotional torment amounts to the same. I disagree.

Claiming to be a church to hide your hate group whose major purpose is to terrorize people that you hate should not be protected. There is a huge, very identifiable difference.

You hate me cuz I'm a Jew? Fine, you're allowed. You're a dumb-ass, but you're ALLOWED. You want to come to my funeral and say hateful things about me cuz I'm a Jew, terrorizing the people who love me, including my child who is also a Jew? That is hate speech and should not be allowed. Wrapping up the former in religion that peacefully congregates is disgusting, but allowed. Wrapping up the latter as a church in any way shapre or form should not be allowed.

[JoyNChrist]

I'm on the east coast but I grew up in TX, the Bible belt of America.

Have these Christians that you know directly told you that they think homosexuals are going to hell? Or, are you assuming that because they believe homosexuality is a sin that they must believe they are going to hell?

I didn't say that Christians I know believe that homosexuality is perfectly fine with God. I said I don't know a single one who would say that gay people are going to hell for being gay.

There is a HUGE difference in believing that something is a sin and thinking it results in a straight ticket to fire and brimstone.

Disagreeing does NOT equal hate. Thinking something is a sin does NOT equal hate. If that is the case then you would have to say that all Christians must hate everyone who lies, who cheats, who is prideful, who boasts, who is angry, etc.

Respectfully leaving to go make dinner...

I definitely agree that disagreeing with something peacefully, or thinking is a sin, isn't hate.

To answer your question though, yes, I have been told this by many, many Christians where I live. Many are also fine with gay-bashing jokes and slurs.

I think this is more of a commentary on the backwards small town I live in, though, than Christianity in general.

[kijip]

If members of that faith are hurt, oh well. Sorry. I feel bad for them, but they're not being terrorized. I know, I know, you feel the emotional torment amounts to the same. I disagree.

Westboro stands around with inflammatory signs. They would argue that they don't commit violent acts. As far as I know, they have never been linked to any felony hate crimes such as assault, rape or murder. Where is the terrorism here? I agree 100% that protesting at funerals is not a protected activity. I am sure that while they are not linked to these physical crimes that they have in fact fueled some of them. But crimes against gays are not uncommon and, as I am sure you know, NOT all fueled by Westboro- they are fueled but the hateful bias against gays that runs through a large part of our culture.

Anti-gay activities nearly all seem to source themselves to a religious backing (though not always Christian) and use religion as their sick justification, are not an emotional pain only situation Hilary. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. People are physically injured for being gay in this country a lot. I would include suicide and self harm in that group, but even if you remove that, the violence against gay people shockingly prevalent. To clarify my previous posts, I don't think that gay bashing takes place in a vacuum. It is fueled by anti-gay beliefs and words and I have seen far too many of those beliefs come from religion.

These are people who, in addition to being told they are bad people, are being:

-beaten up
-bullied
-killed
-raped (shockingly common for transsexuals especially)
-driven to kill themselves
-abandoned by their parents while still a minor child. This is a large amount of the youth homelessness issue. I can not even count the number of people under the age of 20 I know personally who were kicked out of their Christian parents home for coming out as gay, usually at around 15-16, but I know a few as young as 12-13 at the time they were turned out.

And these activities would continue to go on even if all Westboro church members had a change of heart and ceased their activities this very hour. That's terrorism. That's hate. That's the consequence of hate, no matter how it dresses itself up. And that is why I would rather come face to face with someone I know to be a hateful loon than have to deal with people who tiptoe around it, oblivious to their own participation in the torment faced by gay people, especially gay children.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/anti-gay-hate-crimes-doing-the-math

http://www.itgetsbetter.org/pages/about-it-gets-better-project/

[elizabethkott]

Anti-gay activities nearly all seem to source themselves to a religious backing (though not always Christian) and use religion as their sick justification, are not an emotional pain only situation Hilary. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. People are physically injured for being gay in this country a lot. I would include suicide and self harm in that group, but even if you remove that, the violence against gay people shockingly prevalent. To clarify my previous posts, I don't think that gay bashing takes place in a vacuum. It is fueled by anti-gay beliefs and words and I have seen far too many of those beliefs come from religion.

These are people who, in addition to being told they are bad people, are being:

-beaten up
-bullied
-killed
-raped (shockingly common for transsexuals especially)
-driven to kill themselves
-abandoned by their parents while still a minor child. This is a large amount of the youth homelessness issue. I can not even count the number of people under the age of 20 I know personally who were kicked out of their Christian parents home for coming out as gay, usually at around 15-16, but I know a few as young as 12-13 at the time they were turned out.

And these activities would continue to go on even if all Westboro church members had a change of heart and ceased their activities this very hour. That's terrorism. That's hate. That's the consequence of hate, no matter how it dresses itself up. And that is why I would rather come face to face with someone I know to be a hateful loon than have to deal with people who tiptoe around it, oblivious to their own participation in the torment faced by gay people, especially gay children.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/anti-gay-hate-crimes-doing-the-math

http://www.itgetsbetter.org/pages/about-it-gets-better-project/

And this is why I was doing a whole little happy dance on Monday when my principal pulled me into his office in the morning and FINALLY agreed to let me direct The Laramie Project as the spring drama in our high school. :D I've been lobbying him since I came back from maternity leave in November. After enlisting the assistant principal to add to my harassment and annoyance with his own harassment and badgering, the poor guy probably had enough and relented. I don't care why he's letting me do it... just that we get to do this very powerful and important show. Our kids need it. Just based on conversations we've had in my acting classes about the play and the discussions it has generated... this is an issue that the younger generation really does need to deal with.
(For those who don't know, The Laramie Project is a play focused around the town of Laramie, WY and the effects the beating and subsequent death of Matthew Shepard (a gay university student) had on the town in 1998. There's a decent film version of the play put out by HBO as well.)

[kijip]

And this is why I was doing a whole little happy dance on Monday when my principal pulled me into his office in the morning and FINALLY agreed to let me direct The Laramie Project as the spring drama in our high school.
:cheerleader1: Awesome!

ETA: Here is a video that explains what I am trying to say, perhaps unsuccessfully or unclearly, above: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/11/23/nr.gays.victims.of.hate.crimes.cnn?iref=allsearch

[wellyes]

I didn't open this thread for a few days in the mindset of not giving the agitators the attention they're looking for (like Sarah Palin's recent "blood libel" wink-wink remark) but I think it turned in a very interesting direction. Glad to see that Matthew Shepard's unimaginably awful death is still generating some good in this world.

[Fairy]

Westboro stands around with inflammatory signs. They would argue that they don't commit violent acts. As far as I know, they have never been linked to any felony hate crimes such as assault, rape or murder. Where is the terrorism here?


Why does terrorism have to be physically violent? I see your point, but IMO picketing a funeral is predatory behavior; it preys on the emotionally vulnerable on purpose, and they're doing it so they can visit their hate against them.


But crimes against gays are not uncommon and, as I am sure you know, NOT all fueled by Westboro- they are fueled but the hateful bias against gays that runs through a large part of our culture.

Anti-gay activities nearly all seem to source themselves to a religious backing (though not always Christian) and use religion as their sick justification, are not an emotional pain only situation Hilary. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. People are physically injured for being gay in this country a lot. I would include suicide and self harm in that group, but even if you remove that, the violence against gay people shockingly prevalent. To clarify my previous posts, I don't think that gay bashing takes place in a vacuum. It is fueled by anti-gay beliefs and words and I have seen far too many of those beliefs come from religion.


There is no question about this. I never once argued it. We agree here. It's extraneous to the point you originally made, which was that Phelps's group is a valid church, and I disagree viscerally with this. You can point out all you want that Christianity and other religions points to being gay as "wrong" and, therefore, damages people, and I will agree with you till the cows come home. That doesn't mean that they are hate groups. Westboro is.

And please. Ridding ourselves of Phelps doesn't solve hate. The point of contention I have here is whether or not Westboro is a valid church. They're not. They're a hate group.

[kijip]

There is no question about this. I never once argued it. We agree here. It's extraneous to the point you originally made, which was that Phelps's group is a valid church, and I disagree viscerally with this. You can point out all you want that Christianity and other religions points to being gay as "wrong" and, therefore, damages people, and I will agree with you till the cows come home. That doesn't mean that they are hate groups. Westboro is.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One man's church is another man's cult and on and on. I agree that they are a hate group. But I think that they can call themselves a church and be a hate group all the same. It sickens me to my core, especially for someone with my religious history, but that is just how I see it. It is ok for people to be of different minds on this matter. For me, I just care more that there are wolves in sheep's clothing on this issue that get nicely concealed when people flee from this particular very out there and clearly seen wolf, than about the foregone disavowing of these extreme tactics.

[Fairy]

Then we agree to disagree, Katie. On gay hate, however, we are of one mind.