DC w/ Summer bdays - how did you determine "Kindergarten readiness"?

[sewarsh]

I'm really struggling here.

DD will be 5 in July - cutoff here is Sept 1.

I registered her for Kindergarten, but recently spoke to her preschool teachers...one said she could go either way, the other said she feels DD would definately benefit from another year of preschool. Academically they say she's there, but lacking in the "social maturity" department.

I'm going to bring her to the elementery school for her K assessment and see what they say, but is there anything anyone here can suggest...books, websites, people to talk to, etc. that can help me make the right decision here.

I don't care either way....I just want to do the best thing for her.

Thanks.

[scrooks]

I don' t have any advice but will be watching this thread closely. I will be in the same boat with DD next year. I don't imagine anyone will tell me to hold her back but I will have to gauge her social maturity. I'm excepting a tough decision ahead!

[egoldber]

You need to look at a lot of things. I will also admit up front that my personal bias is to not hold academically ready kids back from K.

My older DD is an August birthday with a September 30 cutoff. Entering K she was not reading at all. Only knew a few sight words. She could not count to 100. She was barely writing her own name.

Our public K is full day. My plan was to send her to a private half day K one year. Then if I thought she could benefit from an additional K year, to send her to the public K, otherwise send her to first (which is what we ended up doing).

At the end of her half day K year, the K teacher said go to first.

I had her evaluated by the reading specialist at the public school and she point blank told me that there was nothing for her to learn in public K and send her to first. (By the end of K she was reading short chapter books like Magic Treehouse independently.)

I have not regretted that decision.

My DD is NOT mature socially vs. her peers. However, she lags more than one year behind. That is to say that holding her back one year would not have helped. But there is a huge range of kids in each grade, both academically and socially.

[Kindra178]

For me, I worry about boys, but not so much at age 5-7 but more 11-14. It seems that maturity will come in handy at that later age, but judging where a child will be at that age is hard to determine at age 5.

[jenmcadams]

There are a lot of old posts in the lounge about this topic and I've probably posted in most of them :)

My DD has an 8/29 birthday and my DS has a 6/24 birthday in a district with a 10/15 cut-off. In both cases, I sent my kids "on-time" and I'm happy with my decision.

A few things I would consider when looking at the decision for any DC are:


What is K like in your area? How academic is it?
What are the trends re. "red-shirting" in your area?
Will K be full day or 1/2 day?
What are your options if you don't send your child to K (e.g. another year in same program, transition year program, etc.)?
Preschool teacher's recommendation
Conversations with friends with children at elementary school your DC will attend.

In our case, K is very academic and the redshirting trends vary by year. For my DD (now in 3rd grade), she was the youngest kid in her class and there were several (5-6 kids out of 25) who were a full year older than her and had been held out. For my DS, same school 3 years later, there are only 2 kids who were redshirted and a there are at least 7 kids younger than him including 4 boys (so a much younger class).

Both of my kids went to full day K and have thrived. My DD was very social and every year her teachers tell me that they never would have known she was the youngest in her class. The only thing we notice is that her physical writing skills still lag her reading and math ability and seem to be a little behind some of the other top students in the class. My DS is less social, but I don't think a year would make a difference. He fits in and has friends, but is more selective about who he plays with and isn't an overtly athletic kid. He's extremely advanced academically (gets subject accelerated to a grade 2/3 class for reading), but still needs help on fine motor skills, etc.

I've been pretty vocal about this in the past, but I am not generally in favor of redshirting. I think the practice is a middle-upper class phenomenon that allows schools to continue with their unrealistic expectations of Kinder students. I personally would prefer a system where there was a cut-off window (e.g. 9/1 - 12/1 window and if your child falls before that window, you must send them (or do testing to show why you shouldn't); within that window, parents could make the choice, and after that window, kids would wait a year).

Even though both of my kids are fine and have done fine, I see other kids struggle and it's easy for the expectation to be too high when you have first graders in K. I have friends who have held their June-Aug boys back and all of them are now super advanced K and 1st graders who are bored. These are kids who were given the "gift of time" and now are bored out of their minds. I know some kids need that extra time, but I think it's more the exception than the rule and I think the way the practice of reshirting has become rampant in some areas has caused some unintended problems.

Maybe I'm more comfortable with my kids being on the young end b/c I always was (early Sept birthday in a state with a 12/31 cut-off) and I thrived socially and academically. I know it also helps that my kids are doing well academically, but I'm not worried about middle and high school at this point. I feel like my kids will be strong, confident kids based on what we help them with at home and an extra year isn't going to make my DS the kind of kid who becomes the football star or student body leader...if that's who he is, that's who he'll be.

While the research that has been published in the past tends to say that redshirting makes no long term difference (great review of the published articles on this topic from a couple of years ago can be found at http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf), I'm not sure the research truly reflects the current trends of academically ready kids waiting a year. I do know that some of the most oft-cited sources for redshirting and birthday advantages (e.g. Outliers chapter on Hockey Player birth dates) have been refuted as having data problems (http://navigator.trackvia.com/community/blog/2009/01/27/poking-holes-outliers), but maybe I'll be proven wrong eventually. As for the notion that no one ever regrets giving their kids that "gift of time," I think there's a confirmation bias at work there. With my friends who have had their DSs wait, they seem to constantly be referring to the social piece and discount the fact that their child isn't being challenged. Personally, I feel strongly that a key tenet of early childhood education is child led learning and meeting each child where they're at. If your child is ready for academics, I wonder if you're doing more of a disservice to them by not letting them read, do math or whatever it is at the level they're at. For my DS, I can't imagine what would have happened if we had waited. He already gets pulled out 4 days a week for special projects and reading groups and it would have been even more difficult to meet his needs if we had waited. He's an imaginative, playful, fun loving kid and we aren't inordinately focused on academics, but we do think if a kid is ready to learn, they should be given that opportunity.

OK...I'm done now...I overtyped as I always do on this topic :bag

[AnnieW625]

Unless the school in question says she is absolutely not ready for kindergarten I would still send her. WCS she repeats next year, but I would definitely send her.

DD1 is an early April birthday, and our state still has a Dec. 1st cutoff, but the Catholic school we want to send her to has a Sept. 1st cutoff so I think she might be one of the younger kids, but definitely not the youngest. I personally wouldn't question sending a child to kindergarten for their specific year unless they were born in the last month before the school cut off (unless of course the school said they weren't ready).

FWIW when DD2 starts kindergarten our state will have a Sept. 1st cutoff, but again unless there is any huge reason not to send her I will send her too. I know I am not much help, but those are just my thoughts on the subject.

[HIU8]

DD is a June bday. Our cutoff is 9/1. Next year will be pre-k. Knowing my DD and what is doing now, I know the right decision for her will be to send her on-time to K in fall 2012. She is currently in a preschool 3's class with kids who will have all turned 4 before her. She is doing very well in this situation (per what her teachers have shared with me).

[Kindra178]

While the research that has been published in the past tends to say that redshirting makes no long term difference (great review of the published articles on this topic from a couple of years ago can be found at http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf), I'm not sure the research truly reflects the current trends of academically ready kids waiting a year. I do know that some of the most oft-cited sources for redshirting and birthday advantages (e.g. Outliers chapter on Hockey Player birth dates) have been refuted as having data problems (http://navigator.trackvia.com/community/blog/2009/01/27/poking-holes-outliers), but maybe I'll be proven wrong eventually. As for the notion that no one ever regrets giving their kids that "gift of time," I think there's a confirmation bias at work there. With my friends who have had their DSs wait, they seem to constantly be referring to the social piece and discount the fact that their child isn't being challenged. Personally, I feel strongly that a key tenet of early childhood education is child led learning and meeting each child where they're at. If your child is ready for academics, I wonder if you're doing more of a disservice to them by not letting them read, do math or whatever it is at the level they're at. For my DS, I can't imagine what would have happened if we had waited. He already gets pulled out 4 days a week for special projects and reading groups and it would have been even more difficult to meet his needs if we had waited. He's an imaginative, playful, fun loving kid and we aren't inordinately focused on academics, but we do think if a kid is ready to learn, they should be given that opportunity.

OK...I'm done now...I overtyped as I always do on this topic :bag

I totally appreciate your thoughts and IRL experience. I think if our school had a 10/15 cut off, I would be less likely to be struggling with this decision. A few thoughts of my own:

The data cited above doesn't really refute Gladwell's analysis, because Gladwell wasn't talking about NHL players. He was discussing advanced youth hockey players and noted that the older boys were singled out and received more instruction than the younger boys, only because they were bigger, faster, stronger than their peers based on age. The people who make it in the NHL are such a small, small percentage of all Canadian youth hockey players, even advanced youth hockey players. Those who end up actually playing pro isn't really the same analysis, because just because you are a star youth player doesn't mean you will end up in the NHL. Put another way, ending up in the NHL is another kind of Outlier all together.

I find particularly compelling the recent study regarding ADHD dx and birthdays. It seems that the highest number of ADHD dx seem to be for the kids who have birthdays within a month of school cutoff dates, regardless of what that date is:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100817090802.htm

[KDsMommy]

DS has a 8/14 birthday with a 9/1 cutoff in our state. I'm still unsure what we will do next year. If he gets into the public Montessori charter for this coming year, we won't have an issue because he would stay in the same class until 1st grade anyway as it's a mixed-age classroom.

[jenmcadams]

I totally appreciate your thoughts and IRL experience. I think if our school had a 10/15 cut off, I would be less likely to be struggling with this decision. A few thoughts of my own:

The data cited above doesn't really refute Gladwell's analysis, because Gladwell wasn't talking about NHL players. He was discussing advanced youth hockey players and noted that the older boys were singled out and received more instruction than the younger boys, only because they were bigger, faster, stronger than their peers based on age. The people who make it in the NHL are such a small, small percentage of all Canadian youth hockey players, even advanced youth hockey players. Those who end up actually playing pro isn't really the same analysis, because just because you are a star youth player doesn't mean you will end up in the NHL. Put another way, ending up in the NHL is another kind of Outlier all together.

I find particularly compelling the recent study regarding ADHD dx and birthdays. It seems that the highest number of ADHD dx seem to be for the kids who have birthdays within a month of school cutoff dates, regardless of what that date is:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100817090802.htm

That science daily link is interesting...thanks. Definitely a concern that young kids could be mistakenly diagnosed with attention disorders.

As far as the NHL data from Outliers, as I remember, Gladwell actually specifically says (wish I still had my copy of the book to quote) that Canadian born NHL hockey players follow his hypothesis of more players from early calendar year birthdays b/c of the youth hockey program and because of the older player benefit. The fact that a simple analysis of birthdays of NHL players done by some random blogger doesn't support his hypothesis makes me question Gladwell's data in general. I always get frustrated by Gladwell b/c I think he makes sweeping generalizations and the data doesn't always seem to support him. Just my own random pet peeve...I also got frustrated by the Freakonomics guys when the data came out disproving some of their most popular theories. I love numbers and data so I like reading those books, but get frustrated when they seem poorly edited.

[wimama]

I personally would prefer a system where there was a cut-off window (e.g. 9/1 - 12/1 window and if your child falls before that window, you must send them (or do testing to show why you shouldn't); within that window, parents could make the choice, and after that window, kids would wait a year).

I know some kids need that extra time, but I think it's more the exception than the rule and I think the way the practice of reshirting has become rampant in some areas has caused some unintended problems.


:yeahthat: I love the idea of a window 2-3 month window where parents could decide if their children were ready to start school. And, I don't generally like the idea of redshirting unless the child is close to the cut-off. With DS we had no concerns on whether to start him in K4/K5 on time. He has a April birthday. But, this baby is due the first week in September. The cut off date for K5 here is Sept. 1st. So, this baby is already measuring ahead, there is a good chance he/she will arrive early and make the cutoff by just a few days. In this circumstance we will consider redshirting. It will depend on the maturity of this child when the time comes. I am hoping I make it until Sept 2. Then we don't have to decide about redshirting. Of course, my story may change when I get closer to my due date.:wink2:

[SnuggleBuggles]

I sent ds1 on time despite a late June b-day. It was a decision pushed on by his private k teachers (we were deciding between repeating k at the next school or going on to 1st). Academically he was more than ready, social not so much. You know what? It wouldn't have mattered one bit if we held him back for maturity. His personality is what it is, just a smidge socially awkward. He'd have been that way if I held him back too because an extra year wasn't going to change who he is. He is just like his dad, in fact. He's in 3rd now and academically great and socially he is fine. He doesn't tend too get on as well with the kids who had been held out that extra year- there is a kid in his class exactly one year older.

I stressed myself out about the decision, researched a ton and would make the same decision again.

Beth

[sste]

If you want individual (not societal) pros and cons, this is what I see as the pros:

1. Your child has an extra year of presumably fun preschool before going to a kindy (or at least ultimately a first grade situation) that may be less play-based and even overly academic. To me, this is the biggest advantage of red-shirting - - kindy in many areas has become unrealistic and not as much fun! (I see the arguments that red-shirting exacerbates that problem but given that you probably can't change an entire system and are just focusing on your decision . . . ).
2. Your child will have a short to medium-term advantage in sports. And possibly in academics (but I have seen that "edge" vanish within months for a few friends' children so it might be very, very short-term).
3. You keep them "home" a year longer - - I have to say I love having the kids in "my world
versus so centrally in the orbit of school. It is lame of me but true.

The cons of redshirting:
1. Your child may not be developmentally in sync with the rest of the class
2. Your child may be so large physically that they are more likely to injure others during play or sports - - this is a big con to me, I would be stressed about that.
3. We don't know the effects on self-esteem
4. There are no long-term gains academically
5. Some careers have a very long training track - - DH put in FIFTEEN years from college to the end of his training. He did not want to be one day older when he finished!

Personally, I am kind of torn and I have a slightly odd situation - - the opposite of redshirting. My son was born at 38 weeks, my daughter was born at almost 42 weeks and was huge and from the get-go crazily developmentally advanced. She was almost certainly "done" before her due date which was aug 31, much less her actual birth date which was mid-September - - both size-wise and she literally seemed developmentally a month older (not only per me but also her pedis). Going to 42 weeks pushed us to Sept 14 which is over the school cut-off. My concern with her is the opposite of red-shirting: I am worried that *if* she continues the same rate of mental development and remains above-average in size and if I start her on time (based on her post-date birthday) that she is going to be the huge, towering, smart girl in her class, that she might hit puberty way earlier than her classmates, and that unfortunately huge and/or smart can be socially difficult for young girls. Obviously too soon to tell but her very marked early development has made dh and I wonder a bit about the future. On the other side though, I am psyched at the thought of her being home an extra year with me. :)

[SnuggleBuggles]

I find particularly compelling the recent study regarding ADHD dx and birthdays. It seems that the highest number of ADHD dx seem to be for the kids who have birthdays within a month of school cutoff dates, regardless of what that date is:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100817090802.htm

I've heard of that study too (I should read it sometime). Ds1 was dx with ADHD last year and, as I said in my last post, I sent my summer ds on time. We opted not to do anything about the dx b/c it really wasn't causing problems. I honestly question the diagnosis and think that he was being pushed for the dx because he was one of the young boys. A year later he is just older and more mature and the things that were noticed last year aren't an issue.

Beth

[HIU8]

I'm going through the decision right now with DS (although it's whether to repeat K or go to 1st). DH wants 1st in public. Not sure if DS is ready for a large classroom. I vote 1st in a private with small classes. 2 privates want K again. DS is Thanksgiving Bday with a 9/1 cutoff (so he is over the cutoff and held back in K). I do not think his social issues will be solved by making him 18 months older than the other kids in K. His teachers disagree, but I feel they put him in a spot they had when he should have been placed differently (leaving his current private at the end of this year b/c of it).

[SnuggleBuggles]

jenmcadams- thank you for that post. I was nodding along with pretty much all of it. Very helpful and informative.

Beth

[hillview]

DS1 is within 6 weeks of the cut off and DS2 is within 1 week of the cut off. With DS1 his teachers suggested we "red shirt" due to social and academic readiness (in reality I think that his handwriting issues are more b/c he is a lefty and I KNOW he is bright) -- we are essentially dodging this issue entirely by sending him back to Montessori for lower elementary. For DS2 we will wait and see.

/hillary

[vonfirmath]

:I am hoping I make it until Sept 2. Then we don't have to decide about redshirting. Of course, my story may change when I get closer to my due date.:wink2:

I was a September 4th birthday and my parents went out of their way to get me into school earlier than I should have been, because of a Sept 1st cutoff. It never hurt me.

[Green_Tea]

Jenmcadams, thanks for typing that all out. My DS turns 5 at the end of August, and although we have a Dec. 31 cut-off (that he meets by more than 4 months), many, many families here hold out their (completely typical and on-track) boys born after July 1. There are lots of 6 year old boys starting kindergarten here, and some that even turn 7 in the course of the school year. I feel that this has changed the expectations for kindergarten in a way that is completely unfair to the kids who meet the deadline and start on time. I find it very frustrating, and completely support measures that would make it hard for parents of typically developing kids to hold out their kids who meet the deadline by several months (more than 90 days). In fact I think I mentioned that in one of the other threads on this topic!

We all bemoan the fact that our kids are pushed so hard from a young age, but redshirting perpetuates this trend. 7 year olds have completely different capabilities and needs than 4.5 and 5 year olds.

I could go on and on about this, but it will just get me fired up. Thanks for weighing in jenmcadams. I think I love you.

[jenmcadams]

jenmcadams- thank you for that post. I was nodding along with pretty much all of it. Very helpful and informative.


Thanks for weighing in jenmcadams. I think I love you.

:hug5: Thanks you guys...I always feel like a crazy lady when I post about this b/c I get so fired up and go on and on and on ...

I truly think there are some kids who need to wait, but most of the time, most kids would be fine going when they're scheduled to go. Someone will always be the oldest and the youngest and there will always be a 12 month spread, but as that spread widens, issues start to arise. In any case, I feel lucky that both of my kids are academically ahead, so that piece isn't a challenge and they're socially fine. For the kids who are more age-typical in academics and socially, it just really seems unfair.

[sewarsh]

Thank you all for your thorough responses.
I'm going to read over the articles and ponder some things.
Keep the posts coming!!
Thanks.

[sidmand]

I haven't read all the posts and I know some people have linked to some scientific data. I only have BTDT experience...

I REALLY struggled with this last year. FWIW we had some other issues too but DS has a June birthday and the cutoff is 9/1.

I had no doubt about his academic ability but his social skills have always been behind (he was diagnosed on the Autism spectrum but actually may not be anymore...). He cried/cries VERY easily.

Personally, I was one of the youngest in my class to begin with and then moved to a state with an even earlier cutoff so there were kids an entire year older in my class (I started K at four, as did DH) and so my views were a bit colored by that. Socially I could definitely have benefited from another year (I think), but I'm also a shy person and maybe another year wouldn't have made any difference at all. But someone pointed out that school is more about the social then the academic sometimes and if you don't fit in socially that can be much worse than not fitting in academically.

My aunt told me, "when in doubt, keep them out." The school told me to never hold them back if possible. In our case DS is also very tall for his age and had some services provided by the school system that would have been tricky to keep if we did hold him back. His teachers all said he was ready for K though and we just bit the bullet and sent him.

It was hard! And the first week was awful and I really started to second guess everything but now it seems fine.

He does cry very easily (but I don't think he does as much at school) but as someone pointed out, another year might not change that at all. Some people are criers (like me!) and that just might be his personality.

Keep in mind too that there are almost eight months until school starts and at this age a lot can happen in eight months. I'm concerned now about DD starting preschool(!) next September but I have to remember the huge strides she's made in just the past couple of months and that it will likely happen again.

[robinsmommy]

We had the same issue with DD1 - she has a fall bd. I think she could have easily gone to K, but our school had a Sept cutoff - if you're born before the 1st, you're in, 1-30, you have to test in - DD is Oct, so it was irrelevant.

DD had a hard time - all her peers went on to K without her - does your child hang out with kids who are K bound or more with those who are there for another year? This is a big part of how I knew DD was ready. The academics were fine, too. She could easily have gone.

On the positive side, our girls are tiny. She'd have been dwarfed by the other kids if she went in a year early. She's still smaller than most in her grade, though she is one of the oldest. She has a hard time with sports being so small.

An older mother w/teens told me this: "When she is in high school and making decisions about sex, drugs, driving, etc, do you want her to be a year younger or older than her peers?". For me, this could go either way, though - a younger kid can more easily squeeze in a "gap" year to learn while traveling or working before college.

Lots to think about. If it's half-day K, it's an easier decision, as that is a good bridge, I think. Full day is a little harder. Is your child in half or full day now?

[MSWR0319]

My mom is a kindergarten teacher and her take is to hold or send to pre-k summer birthdays even if the cutoff is Sept30. The reason being tha even though a child is academically ready, most are not socially ready at all. She said she sees summer birthdays come in and yes, they are smart, but they cant handle the work, cant handle sitting still, and are just socially behind the older children in all aspects. She has a lot of breakdowns from kids who came too early because they get frustrated when they can't do something right and don't know how to deal with it. She'd much rather have a socially adjusted child who knows nothing, versus an academically advanced child who has no social skills because that child she can't teach maturity and it will frustrate a lot of children knowing that they can't handle things. She held my sister with a June birthday and she(and my sister) has no regrets. My best friend in high school had an August birthday and didnt struggle till the last few years of school. She wishes she had been held. DH also has an August birthday and was sent. He was held back in second grade because of his social skills and he is still haunted and embarrassed by it. He still talks about how dumb he felt then because he couldn't pass second grade and his friends did.

I'd personally hold a summer birthday but that's because there are many teachers in my family and I see the problems they have and hear stories, especially if thats what your teacher says. but You need to do what you think is right for your child. Think about how they would feel if they got retained later during school and all of their friends moved up a grade and they didn't. There are more benefits to being the oldest in a class versus the youngest. All you can do is research and make your best decision for your child.

[sewarsh]

The reason being tha even though a child is academically ready, most are not socially ready at all. She said she sees summer birthdays come in and yes, they are smart, but they cant handle the work, cant handle sitting still, and are just socially behind the older children in all aspects.

Well said. This is my DD in a nutshell.

I spoke to the guidance counselor at the elementery school today and she said this could definately be a problem....if she doesn't know how to sit still. This is a "social" problem that could turn into an "academic" problem.

Thanks very much for this point of view.

[ilfaith]

I have three boys all with summer birthdays.

I never really considered holding DS1 back, even though he was born in June and we have a 9/1 cutoff. He was reading before he turned four and is big for his age, even though he is the second youngest child and the youngest boy in his class. I was afraid he would eat the other kids for lunch. That said, he has had some behavioral problems. I spent a year getting phone calls from his teacher about his inappropriate and immature behavior. I took him to a psychologist who told me is academically "gifted" and his behavior was within the normal range for a boy his age, but that I should bring him back in a year to re-evaluate and rule out any attention issues.

DS2 has an August birthday. There is one boy in his pre-K class whose birthday falls later than his. DS2 is small for his age, and while he seems to be on-grade level as far as knowing his letters and numbers and such, I am a little concerned about how he will do academically in the future (I know I shouldn't compare him to his brother.) On the other hand, he does get along well with his classmates (he really is much more successful socially than his older brother) even though he is closer in age to many of the kids in the class behind his (Nearly half of the students in this years' three-year-old class turned four in September, October or November)

DS3 is 20 months...I'm not ready to even begin thinking about kindergarten for him.

[boolady]

I'd personally hold a summer birthday but that's because there are many teachers in my family and I see the problems they have and hear stories, especially if thats what your teacher says. but You need to do what you think is right for your child. Think about how they would feel if they got retained later during school and all of their friends moved up a grade and they didn't. There are more benefits to being the oldest in a class versus the youngest. All you can do is research and make your best decision for your child.


I'll also point out, though, that there are "problems" that present themselves for some kids who are the oldest. My DD is going to miss the cut-off by just under three weeks, and will be the oldest in her class when she does go. I have concerns, because I know parents whose kids have been bored, acted out as a result of being bored when they'd never acted out in preschool, and are physically tall and big and are outsiders that way. I am somewhat concerned about DD having these issues, because she's been in daycare, now preschool, for a long time, is very socially self-assure (I wish I was at her age!), is over the 97th percentile for height, and as a result of being at her daycare/preschool, I worry that she's getting a little bit of "big fish in the small pond" feeling, as she's sort of a senior statesman now. Honestly, if I could have her tested to enter kindergarten this year, I would.

There's no one right answer for everyone-- while if your DD doesn't seem ready, that's one thing. I just wanted to point out that there are potential risks and benefits to both. I swear to DH that if we ever have another child, which isn't something that's going to happen any time soon, I'm shooting for a February/March baby so that I don't even have to think about this.

[egoldber]

She'd much rather have a socially adjusted child who knows nothing, versus an academically advanced child who has no social skills

But this is a false dichotomy. If a child is academically advanced when age appropriate for K they will often be even MORE advanced the next year and (if social skills is a delayed area for them) they are still likely to have delayed social skills vs. their peers. ONly now this is exacerbated by being even more bored. Social skills don't miraculously develop in one year for a lot of kids. And OTOH, I also know MANY young for grade advanced kids with no social issues at all.

[[email protected]]

I think that there are a lot of factors. Some are kid based: Is she wiggly? How are her fine motor skills? emotional development? Others depend on the school. DN attends a very academic preschool. He's a June birthday and really struggling with learning all 33 kindergarten sight words. Our local school is half day and not all that academic. How does the school deal with kids who are at different levels? One mom in our playgroup has a K'er who started the year reading and another friend's son knew most letter sounds. They both are doing great and love school, but that wouldn't be the case in all areas.

When is registration? There's no harm in registering and changing your mind. Our school system has a postcard that parents can drop in the mail anytime before the first week of school stating that they won't be enrolling.

In the interest of disclosure. We live in a state with a Dec 2 cutoff. DS's birthday is in late November. We held him back. He's reading CVC words at home and doing simple math but emotionally he's behind his peers and was just not ready. He's made a lot of strides since about two weeks after his birthday--its like a switch turned on and he went from being a preschooler to a boy. I'm glad California changed the law because it reinforces our choice. He's also 30% for size so him being bigger than everyone isn't a concern.

I think that if your kid is within 31 days of the cutoff or the first day of school that its nobody's business what decision you make. I have a problem with typically developing boys who turn seven during the school year, but six years old and one month on the first day? Nope.

Christine

[sewarsh]

I'll also point out, though, that there are "problems" that present themselves for some kids who are the oldest. My DD is going to miss the cut-off by just under three weeks, and will be the oldest in her class when she does go. I have concerns, because I know parents whose kids have been bored, acted out as a result of being bored when they'd never acted out in preschool, and are physically tall and big and are outsiders that way. I am somewhat concerned about DD having these issues, because she's been in daycare, now preschool, for a long time, is very socially self-assure (I wish I was at her age!), is over the 97th percentile for height, and as a result of being at her daycare/preschool, I worry that she's getting a little bit of "big fish in the small pond" feeling, as she's sort of a senior statesman now. Honestly, if I could have her tested to enter kindergarten this year, I would..

Well, rest assured if your school district is anything like mine, there are lots of parents who hold summer bday kids back so you're child will probably end up in the older 33% of the class, rather than be the oldest.

[SnuggleBuggles]

My mom is a kindergarten teacher and her take is to hold or send to pre-k summer birthdays even if the cutoff is Sept30. The reason being tha even though a child is academically ready, most are not socially ready at all. She said she sees summer birthdays come in and yes, they are smart, but they cant handle the work, cant handle sitting still, and are just socially behind the older children in all aspects. She has a lot of breakdowns from kids who came too early because they get frustrated when they can't do something right and don't know how to deal with it. .

But, is it really normal to expect a 5yo boy to sit still? That was one thing we asked about when touring schools. Boys tend to be movers at that age and it doesn't really reflect on anything other than the age. If you want to avoid that squirmy stage then they should change the k cut off and make it for 6yos not 5yos. Late or early b-day, the norms of the age should be considered, imo. Sometimes I think schools are just asking for too much. jmo on it Someone will always be the youngest and even if they are a spring b-day, for example, some kids just take longer to mature. If we wait for every kid to be totally ready across the board for school then we might be waiting till they are like 10yo. :)

I think this is such a slippery slope. Obviously in a school where redshirting is the norm then no on time kid will stand a chance eventually. the teachers will get used to teaching older kids, the curriculum will start to shift...I told one of the schools we looked at tthat it sounded like they should just be honest and say that kids need to be 6yo for their program.
Beth

[sewarsh]

A few things I would consider when looking at the decision for any DC are:

[LIST]
What is K like in your area? How academic is it?
What are the trends re. "red-shirting" in your area?
Will K be full day or 1/2 day?
What are your options if you don't send your child to K (e.g. another year in same program, transition year program, etc.)?
Preschool teacher's recommendation
Conversations with friends with children at elementary school your DC will attend.


Okay so to answer some of these questions:

K is VERY academic in our area, confirmed this with guidance counselor today.
It is pretty trendy to red-shirt here. I asked the guidance counselor if she had figures yet regarding how many summer bdays there are and she said Not Yet but that there are kids enrolled that currently have bdays throughout the summer.
1/2 day
If I don't send her she'll go through Pre-K again at her preschool, but will be in a 5-day class as opposed to 4-day class and will have different teacher. Same basic principles in what they teach, but how they teach it and other activities/projects are at the discretion of the teacher. I've heard excellent things about the 5-day preschool teacher.
Preschool teacher rec: 1 said she'd definately recommend holding back, 1 said she's on the fence. Both say academics is fine, social maturity is the concern....doesn't take social cues, doesn't respond to peer pressure, etc.
I'm starting to do this now.





DD had a hard time - all her peers went on to K without her - does your child hang out with kids who are K bound or more with those who are there for another year? This is a big part of how I knew DD was ready. The academics were fine, too. She could easily have gone.


The kids in our playgroup and who we've hung out with since her birth are all a year behind her, all but one becuase of birthdate and 1 mom is holding her August DD back.

In her preschool class of 18, about 15 are going on to K, but they will all be at different elementary schools, so i don't think this matters to much.

[AnnieW625]

Okay so to answer some of these questions:

K is VERY academic in our area, confirmed this with guidance counselor today.
It is pretty trendy to red-shirt here. I asked the guidance counselor if she had figures yet regarding how many summer bdays there are and she said Not Yet but that there are kids enrolled that currently have bdays throughout the summer.
1/2 day
If I don't send her she'll go through Pre-K again at her preschool, but will be in a 5-day class as opposed to 4-day class and will have different teacher. Same basic principles in what they teach, but how they teach it and other activities/projects are at the discretion of the teacher. I've heard excellent things about the 5-day preschool teacher.
Preschool teacher rec: 1 said she'd definately recommend holding back, 1 said she's on the fence. Both say academics is fine, social maturity is the concern....doesn't take social cues, doesn't respond to peer pressure, etc.
I'm starting to do this now.



I think I would still send her, it's not she is born two weeks before the cut off, she's 2/1/2 months older. She is going to grow a lot between now and her 5th birthday. Like Egoldber said in her post by the end of her daughter's pre K year she had grown a lot and went into the 1st grade with no need for regular kindergarten.


But, is it really normal to expect a 5yo boy to sit still? That was one thing we asked about when touring schools. Boys tend to be movers at that age and it doesn't really reflect on anything other than the age. If you want to avoid that squirmy stage then they should change the k cut off and make it for 6yos not 5yos. Late or early b-day, the norms of the age should be considered, imo. Sometimes I think schools are just asking for too much. jmo on it Someone will always be the youngest and even if they are a spring b-day, for example, some kids just take longer to mature. If we wait for every kid to be totally ready across the board for school then we might be waiting till they are like 10yo. :)

I think this is such a slippery slope. Obviously in a school where redshirting is the norm then no on time kid will stand a chance eventually. the teachers will get used to teaching older kids, the curriculum will start to shift...I told one of the schools we looked at tthat it sounded like they should just be honest and say that kids need to be 6yo for their program.
Beth

I agree with both of those statements 100%. I too agree that if teachers want children to do everything well then why not just have them start kindergarten at 6 yrs. old, but then it will be the hoity toity family with $$$$$$$$$$ that wants their child to be the best so then it will soon be 7 yrs. old to start school and so on. Redshirting for that reason just pisses me off royaly; it's one thing if a child is truly behind, but otherwise it's not necessary.

I also think that because a lot of teachers no longer have aides (our district got rid of aides years ago, I think it was the first extra to go) teachers want to be able to handle 20 to 30 kids on their own, but still I don't think it's fair to hold back kids who are potentially academically ready for kindergarten now. Socially kids will grow IMHO.

[egoldber]

Like Egoldber said in her post by the end of her daughter's pre K year she had grown a lot and went into the 1st grade with no need for regular kindergarten.

Just to clarify, :), my DD did go to K. It was just a private, half day K vs. our public, full day K. But it was a certified K program that sends a lot of kids straight to first grade.

[Kindra178]

I think if I had a girl I wouldn't be struggling with this issue as much. Girls and boys have such different issues/social problems. If my ds would get in trouble at school, it would be for tackleing (why can't I spell that word?) someone. That has never happened in school to date, but my ds is in an Montessori class. A girl would most likely not tackle and tackleing is certainly frowned upon at school! Put another way, although both younger boys and younger girls may struggle with impulse control issues, a boy's lack of impulse may involve physical behavior that may be normal/age appropriate but is not acceptable in school.

It's certainly not surprising that the best students in younger grades are almost always girls!

[scrooks]

Thanks to everyone who contributed info to this thread and especially the OP. This will be a lot of food for thought over the next year.

[clc053103]

I was in the situation last year- DS had July Birthday, 9/1 cut off. We also live in the Phila. 'burbs.

In the absence of an actual diagnosis that would benefit from an extra year of preschool, I do not support redshirting. Where we live, the practice of holding your child back to make them the oldest, the brightest, and the biggest for sports is not that uncommon. DS despite early July birthday is the youngest in his class by over 2 months. That being said, I think he is brighter than most of the oldest kids, and though less mature than some can certainly benefit from being around more mature kids. I didn't want to lower the standards by putting him with kids a year younger than him.

We are now well into the second half of the year and I do not regret it at all. The only issues we've had are with some "bullies" - and yep, they are the oldest boys in the class. Academically, DS is ready for more challenges than the K curriculum is offering- I can't imagine how bored he would be in Pre K right now- and I didn't want him to be bored and consequently, disruptive!

I think if everyone followed the age guidelines set forth by their district (again, absent a diagnosis/IEP), it would benefit the entire class as the teacher then would truly be teaching to a 1 year age span, rather than the 16+ month age span created by redshirting.

JMHO. I respect the views of others that may differ, but this is my experience and my opinion based on my district.

[boolady]

Well, rest assured if your school district is anything like mine, there are lots of parents who hold summer bday kids back so you're child will probably end up in the older 33% of the class, rather than be the oldest.

I wasn't trying to make it about my or my DD, my point was simply that while the pp made it sound like there were only benefits to being the oldest, I really think there are benefits and detriments. I'm really not sure that's the case in my area generally, though who knows. Three families in our immediate neighborhood with boys with summer birthdays have all sent their kids on time in the past two years.

I realize that's not right for every kid...I'm just not sure I agree with the pp who made it sound like it's just a blanket good idea to hold back kids with later birthdays. If one of DD's teachers told me they thought she was lacking in social maturity and might be helped by an extra year, I'd be considering what she had to say just like you are.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

My son has a end of September birthday and started K when he was 4. The cutoff here was Dec 2. (Now they've moved it to Sep 1.)

My concern about starting him on time was social, but not in the way everyone else seems to say. He was always able to sit still. He did not like to participate in songs and that sort of thing at library storytime, rather he would like to listen and observe. He did not like to play with children he did not know or even children he did know in a large group situation.

We decided to send him for a few reasons. We expected him to be academically advanced (even though he was not reading before K, rather because DH & I were always at the top of the class). Also, DH & I are both engineers. We are shy and a little akward. We don't always like to be around new people. It seems like this isn't something you necessarily grow out of and is not necessarily negative.

He's in 1st grade now and I must be the only parent who is somewhat happy to see their child get in trouble for talking. :p

Anyways, I, of course, don't know for sure the long term effect, but for now I am so glad I didn't listen to FEAR (a lot of it from this board really and less so IRL, although the former principle had an obvious bias) and hold him back because of statements like "when in doubt, hold them out." He really blossomed with school. He is definitely one of the top students and has no trouble behaving compared with other children. He doesn't look or act any differently than other boys in his class, some of which are a full year or more older. He has friends in multiple grades (thank you after school care). DH & I still worry about him somewhat since he is still quite shy at times and also doesn't have a large interest in playing sports, which are highly encouraged for boys in our neighborhood. Academically he is doing very well, which we expected. He didn't start reading until end of K, but is a great reader now.

I agree that parents should generally follow the guidelines without some real specific concern.

[sewarsh]

Boolady, I hope you sensed the sarcasm in my post to you. I was not being judgemental at all about your situation and totally understand your point of view.

But to everyone else, I'm going to be frank:
I absolutely agree with those that think this redshirting bull**** is frankly, bull****. I'm irate that I have to struggle with this decision right now...
Why do so many parents have to hold their kids back to give them an "edge"?
Why do parents hold their kids back so they aren't the youngest?? Someone is always going to be the youngest and someone the oldest.
For those parents that hold their kids back because of sports? ARE YOUR FRICKEN SERIOUS?
For those parents that hold their kids back for drivers license purposes? Don't EVEN get me started!!!

These are all examples of why people do this in my area and frankly I think its RIDICULOUS. I feel I am at the mercy of this pattern and honestly, I think I should send my DD to K, but am I going to? I really DO NOT know. You know why, not becuase her Pre-K teachers think she's "socially immature", not because they say she doesn't get "social cues" yet, but because so many other people do it that frankly I'm concerned she'll struggle in the long run being some 14 months younger than some of her classmates. I have been told by NUMEROUS people, including parents, guidance counselor and teachers that they've never been told that no one regrets giving their child that extra year. Its just a vicious cycle IMO that I'm caught in the middle of.

I just find this SO FRICKEN frustrating becuase in my heart of hearts I feel like she should go to K, but I'm struggling with her being the youngest not by a few months, but by 14 months. But if everyone is so much older than her than maybe she's not ready for K becuase everyone else is able to sit still longer and have a longer attention span because they were held back.

I registered her for K and also have her preschool holding a place for her in the 5-day Pre-K class. I have til August to decide and a lot can change between now and then for her. I really appreciate all your feedback, for helping me see the "other side".

Also I understand there are children that absolutely need that extra year and I get that. Please understand my post (well, I guess now, Bitching Post) is not directed to these DC.

[boolady]

Boolady, I hope you sensed the sarcasm in my post to you. I was not being judgemental at all about your situation and totally understand your point of view.

But to everyone else, I'm going to be frank:
I absolutely agree with those that think this redshirting bull**** is frankly, bull****. I'm irate that I have to struggle with this decision right now...
Why do so many parents have to hold their kids back to give them an "edge"?
Why do parents hold their kids back so they aren't the youngest?? Someone is always going to be the youngest and someone the oldest.
For those parents that hold their kids back because of sports? ARE YOUR FRICKEN SERIOUS?
For those parents that hold their kids back for drivers license purposes? Don't EVEN get me started!!!

These are all examples of why people do this in my area and frankly I think its RIDICULOUS. I feel I am at the mercy of this pattern and honestly, I think I should send my DD to K, but am I going to? I really DO NOT know. You know why, not becuase her Pre-K teachers think she's "socially immature", not because they say she doesn't get "social cues" yet, but because so many other people do it that frankly I'm concerned she'll struggle in the long run being some 14 months younger than some of her classmates. I have been told by NUMEROUS people, including parents, guidance counselor and teachers that they've never been told that no one regrets giving their child that extra year. Its just a vicious cycle IMO that I'm caught in the middle of.

I just find this SO FRICKEN frustrating becuase in my heart of hearts I feel like she should go to K, but I'm struggling with her being the youngest not by a few months, but by 14 months. But if everyone is so much older than her than maybe she's not ready for K becuase everyone else is able to sit still longer and have a longer attention span because they were held back.

I registered her for K and also have her preschool holding a place for her in the 5-day Pre-K class. I have til August to decide and a lot can change between now and then for her. I really appreciate all your feedback, for helping me see the "other side".

Also I understand there are children that absolutely need that extra year and I get that. Please understand my post (well, I guess now, Bitching Post) is not directed to these DC.

I did get your point, and I didn't think you were being judgmental at all. It's the truth too often, for sure. I happen to agree with everything you've said here about it being a vicious cycle, and I personally am sorry that people do this for the wrong reasons and force people in your situation to have to make these types of decisions. I wasn't offended in the least-- I am simply hopeful that what I've seen in our neighborhood means that more kids in our town are going relatively "on time." I have a very dear friend with a daughter with a July birthday who really struggled with this, sent her to school, and everything turned out fine, but, for the first five months of school she was worried that it wasn't, as her daughter had kids with April and May birthdays who had been held out for no apparent reason (by their mothers' own admission) and turned 7 in kindergarten while several kids, including my friend's DD, were still 5. It did all work out, and this year, she's in first and the difference seem to be evening out, but it puts people in situations that I really don't think they should even have to contemplate, absent a school district's concern that a child isn't ready.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Boolady, I hope you sensed the sarcasm in my post to you. I was not being judgemental at all about your situation and totally understand your point of view.

But to everyone else, I'm going to be frank:
I absolutely agree with those that think this redshirting bull**** is frankly, bull****. I'm irate that I have to struggle with this decision right now...
Why do so many parents have to hold their kids back to give them an "edge"?
Why do parents hold their kids back so they aren't the youngest?? Someone is always going to be the youngest and someone the oldest.
For those parents that hold their kids back because of sports? ARE YOUR FRICKEN SERIOUS?
For those parents that hold their kids back for drivers license purposes? Don't EVEN get me started!!!

These are all examples of why people do this in my area and frankly I think its RIDICULOUS. I feel I am at the mercy of this pattern and honestly, I think I should send my DD to K, but am I going to? I really DO NOT know. You know why, not becuase her Pre-K teachers think she's "socially immature", not because they say she doesn't get "social cues" yet, but because so many other people do it that frankly I'm concerned she'll struggle in the long run being some 14 months younger than some of her classmates. I have been told by NUMEROUS people, including parents, guidance counselor and teachers that they've never been told that no one regrets giving their child that extra year. Its just a vicious cycle IMO that I'm caught in the middle of.

I just find this SO FRICKEN frustrating becuase in my heart of hearts I feel like she should go to K, but I'm struggling with her being the youngest not by a few months, but by 14 months. But if everyone is so much older than her than maybe she's not ready for K becuase everyone else is able to sit still longer and have a longer attention span because they were held back.

I registered her for K and also have her preschool holding a place for her in the 5-day Pre-K class. I have til August to decide and a lot can change between now and then for her. I really appreciate all your feedback, for helping me see the "other side".

Also I understand there are children that absolutely need that extra year and I get that. Please understand my post (well, I guess now, Bitching Post) is not directed to these DC.


I felt the same way back when I was looking at schools for ds1. I was really mad that the decision was being taken away from me. At the school I referred to, the one I told them they should have 6 be the start date, they told me ds1 wasn't ready for their k because most kids were a full year older. Well, why is that my fault? I was following the rules and going with my gut + the recommendation of his k teachers. Parents are losing more and more choices b/c of what is trendy. Someone needs to put the brakes on this or just reevaluate everything.

Luckily his charter school is mostly people who were sent on time so the peers are pretty age appropriate. JI wonder if there are some schools in your area that still have the normal age breakdowns?

Beth

[SnuggleBuggles]

I did get your point, and I didn't think you were being judgmental at all. It's the truth too often, for sure. I happen to agree with everything you've said here about it being a vicious cycle, and I personally am sorry that people do this for the wrong reasons and force people in your situation to have to make these types of decisions. I wasn't offended in the least-- I am simply hopeful that what I've seen in our neighborhood means that more kids in our town are going relatively "on time." I have a very dear friend with a daughter with a July birthday who really struggled with this, sent her to school, and everything turned out fine, but, for the first five months of school she was worried that it wasn't, as her daughter had kids with April and May birthdays who had been held out for no apparent reason (by their mothers' own admission) and turned 7 in kindergarten while several kids, including my friend's DD, were still 5. It did all work out, and this year, she's in first and the difference seem to be evening out, but it puts people in situations that I really don't think they should even have to contemplate, absent a school district's concern that a child isn't ready.

I still wonder sometimes if I made the right decision. I think parent any that has been faced with the decision, regardless of decision they ultimately made, will wonder from time to time if they were right. None of us has a crystal ball. I don't believe the adage of "when in doubt, hold them out" and agree with GA Peach that this board is one of the biggest places I got any doubt from. Had I not been on here I don't think I would have stressed nearly as much about the decision. I'd have gone with my gut and the teacher recommendation. Sometimes it's better not to over think it. :) The kids of the parents on this board are already in a much better to succeed than a lot of other kids.

Beth

[ncat]

DD went to K at 4 (on time - we have an end of year cut off). It is definitely the right decision for her now - she would not be appropriately challenged if we had held her back.

Her preschool teachers told us that many of the kids who don't seem ready in the Spring change a lot as the fall approaches and are completely on target. So - OP - it may be too early to decide.

[pastrygirl]

I'm holding my son back, who has a June birthday. He has several preschool teachers (5 to 7 total) and several highly recommended holding him back. Everyone that knows him thinks he's not ready for K. When I see him with other kids his age, he acts at least a year younger than them. He doesn't follow directions at all, does his own thing all the time, etc. Plus, my local school just voted to change K to all-day, so that definitely sealed the deal for me.

There are a few other kids from his current class that will be in his pre-K class next year, too (both from being held back and from being past the cutoff). It's a different room and more advanced than the "regular" preschool class. Kids can automatically go to that class after the 3-year-old class, if they are advanced enough. So, it's a mix of 4-year-olds and 5-year-olds.

ETA: His preschool is in the next town, so he won't even notice his friends advancing to K without him. They wouldn't be in the same school even if he was going to K.

[plusbellelavie]

I have not read through all the thread although perhaps I should but I would like to give you a different perspective

My DD is the youngest in her class by almost 2 years she has kids in her class who are her brothers age some missed the cut off other were redshirted. She has 3 boys that missed the cut off and 1 boy who was reshirted and 2 girls that were redshirted...the 3 kids that were redshirted have birthdays in May, June and August. (There are 19 kids in her class...7 of them are girls)

We found out last month that DS1 is the youngest in his class they are 2 others that are a year ahead but their birthdays are in Jan/Feb. I don't know the percentage of kids that have been redshirted....maybe I will try tofind that out.

So what does it mean...nothing IMO! My kids are bright and work hard are mature and they fit in socially. But frankly this didn't happen the first day of Kindergarten...or for that matter in Kindergarten Year. This happen as it normally does with experience and support and guidance from us and from their teachers and other adults and interactions with other children of ALL ages over a period of time!


There was a concern (actually quite a stink about it by the principal) when we moved back for my DD being in 4th grade because of her Birthday. So far we have had no complaints about how she handles herself socially or academically...only high praises from the student advisor/counselor, nurse and her teacher (we have had not hear boo from the principal even though she made registering a horrible experience for my daughter all because her DOB... there was no other reason...it was idiotic in my opinon!) We have been told by other parents who go into her class to help and her teacher that no one thinks of her as the youngest unless it is bought up like "the youngest kid in class gets to hold the door for recess" type thing! Her teacher says she fits right in with her classmates and academically she is in the top of the class. My DH and I had no doubt that she would be successful because we know her and her personality and she knows we are behind her 100% no matter her successes or her failures.

DS1 in middle school...he is changing classes and classmates every 55 mins....the kids don't have time to care who is the youngest or who for that matter is the oldest. Plus in some classes you have kids who are in 6th grade mixed in with 7th or 8th Graders for some subjects. For example if my son had decided to take French he would have been put in the French class with the 8th Graders...it is "normal" for that to happen even in math. Plus DS1 says no one has ever asked him how old he is...and he says he doesn't ask anyone either because they just don't care (maybe this is just amongst the boys...I don't know). I admit my son is tall and could easily pass by height alone for 12 plus year old and I also admit he has his "foolish" moments but overall he is a pretty mature and responsible kid and handles himself well in situations.....even in situation with his 13 year old classmates.

I guess I just want to say to you...do what is best for your child/family and don't worry about the others. I don't honestly believe you can know all the reasons behind the process/decisions that a family goes through on deciding why to redshirt their child unless you agonize over it yourself!...perhaps there was "peer" pressure to do so. Just do what is works for your child and if next year or in 2 or 3 years you believe she is not doing well then hold her back then.

Yes, there will be bumps in the road but I think that ultimately it smoothes out. As long as you are supportive and follow her progress and communicate with her daily she will be fine.

And, the 2 friends of mine that have redshirtted their kids (my sons age) because of their summer Birthdays...REGRET it big time! Their kids (one is a daughter the other a son) are picked on for being "bigger" and they are bored in school and the parents have to find work for them to do at home to keep them motivated in school. The kids are jealous that my DD is 4th Grade like them...they can't believe it...and neither one of them is participating in any sport that their age would give them an "advantage".

Okay...wrote too much...sorry...just this whole thing frustrate me...it just seems so stupid that so much emphasis is put into a "number' and not the individual child!

Best of luck!

[g-mama]

plusbelleavie - what is the cutoff date where you live? Given your kids' birth dates, if it were here, the kids would be in 5th and 3rd. Your oldest child being in 6th shocks me b/c my oldest ds is just 4 months younger and is in 4th grade. I can't imagine!

[ett]

If a child is academically advanced when age appropriate for K they will often be even MORE advanced the next year and (if social skills is a delayed area for them) they are still likely to have delayed social skills vs. their peers. ONly now this is exacerbated by being even more bored. Social skills don't miraculously develop in one year for a lot of kids.

ITA. DS1 has an August birthday. He receives services through the school system and attended the public preschool so if we wanted to hold him back, we would have had to find a private preschool for him. He is strong academically but is delayed socially. Holding him back a year would not have improved his social skills because his delays are not due to his age but due to other issues. By sending him on time, he is able to get the services he needs to improve his social skills. There are kids in his class 14 or 15 months older than DS1. As more parents hold their kids back, this large age gap is going to be a problem.

[carolinamama]

I am finding this post really informative even though it doesn't really apply to me. But it is making me really glad that both my boys just happen to have a Sept birthday in a state that has an Aug 31 cutoff. They will be on the older side no matter what but I don't have to think about holding them back. My heart really goes out to those that are struggling with this decision. It is a tough one and I really just think that no matter what you do, there will be positives and negatives.

[egoldber]

But it is making me really glad that both my boys just happen to have a Sept birthday in a state that has an Aug 31 cutoff.

FWIW, my younger DD was born less than 2 weeks after our 9/30 cut off. I wish I could send her to K a year "early". We thought about ways to make it happen, but have decided to just roll with it for now.

[momof2girls]

Obviously, it depends on the child. My DD is a late June b-day. Cutoff here is Oct 1 and I never gave it a second thought to her starting K at age 5. I see LOTS of other parents, however, holding back for maturity reasons, making some kids 19 when they graduate high school. I was pushed ahead as a kid and was fine (not a genius but did fine in school and college). I probably seem harsh compared to others, but I don't like to use DDs age as primary reason for anything I do/don't do with her. I don't like to underestimate what she can handle. The only thing that would give me pause was if a teacher said something about her abilities (or lackthereof).

[plusbellelavie]

QUOTE=g-mama;3057546]plusbelleavie - what is the cutoff date where you live? Given your kids' birth dates, if it were here, the kids would be in 5th and 3rd. Your oldest child being in 6th shocks me b/c my oldest ds is just 4 months younger and is in 4th grade. I can't imagine![/QUOTE]

Kristen....my kids for better or for worse have had a very different experience educationally and I am not sure how it would have turned out if we hadn't moved to France for 4yrs and had stayed in the States.


"The story..."

DS1 did Kindergarten in the PA the cutoff was Sept 1...it was a half day program...his teacher(s) found him to be "gifted" and did their best to challenge him but told us that testing would be in 1st Grade. Then at the end of Kindergarten my DH job transferred him to France so at the advise of his teacher(s) we found a Bi-lingual Montessori in France...the first week he was there they wanted to put him in 2nd Grade we refused because we didn't want him to miss any "concepts". By the end of the second week DS1 was miserable...DD2 had basically been kicked out of preschool because she had just turned 4 and stilled took naps and I refused to complete change her schedule seeing that we had just done an international move and force her to be there all day so they told me if she wasn't there all day by the end of the month then she shouldn't come at all (they obviously had not made that clear to us when we register her in the summer they told us she could be part time for the entire year w/out a problem!).

So our only option (we moved to the area specifically for this Bi-lingual school and there were no other schools that English was spoken fluently) was to put the kids in the public French school but their French at the time was not that strong...they understood it but they didn't speak it well or write it. And, having been in France less then a month I was ready to go back to the States because the experience at the school was horrible! Against my DH wishes I kept the kids home...and home schooled them using Calvert School and I enrolled them in every activity I could so that they could meet kids their age and learn French. DD was 4 but I taught her Kindergarten and DS1 was in 6 and he started with 1st Grade but we did it quickly because the concepts/reading/math were all very easy to him and in Jan he started 2nd Grade.

My goal was to enroll the kids into a French school in their "regular" class year meaning that DD would go into Kand DS1 would go into 2nd Grade and "repeat" it but in French...I figure that alone would be enough of a challenge for them...but when we went to register the kids and they looked at their work. The principal decided to have them evaluated (to skip a grade in France there are many factors, test, educator, and doctors that have to okay it....the process is very detail and takes into account academics, social and emotional maturity of the child). After the evaluation everyone agreed that the kids should be placed a year ahead...DD never had any trouble with the transition because she was young and she could already read in English so when in 1st Grade they taught the kids to read in French she caught on quickly and she has a very "reserved and serious" kid so she never missed a beat. She was the youngest in her class in France because their cutoff is Dec 31 but she never stuck out and was readily accepted in the class.

DS1 had a harder time of it....he was older and he is more socially motivated then his sister and wants to be likes and the kids can be hard. Academically we had to push his teacher to accept the fact that he was American not be used as an excuse on why his work was not finished...if he didn't finish it at school he finished it at night or on the weekends....he worked hard for the first 3 months and then everything click and he was one of the best students.

The kids spent 3 full years in the French school and I kept up the English at home so that when we return we could show that their English reading level was at par for their age group (it is above because we pushed French and English books and still do) and we were able to provide a portfolio of compositions/letters/book reports in English that I had them do for the 4 years in France. DS1 Middle School never asked or questioned what grade he should be in...he finished 5th Grade in France he was registered for 6th Grade here. DD was a different story...we had to translate her entire 3 years of work from France plus I provided the English portfolio and letter of recommendations from her teachers in France. It was an arduous process and all because her DOB. And, I would like to state if I or DH had any concern that the transition back to States would have been a problem for her or if we felt she was not ready for any reason we would have had her "repeat" 3rd Grade without hesitation but we knew she was ready for 4th Grade BUT if for any reason down the line there are problems we are ready to have her "repeat" without shame the necessary grade but we would do this regardless if she was a year ahead or not...our concern is always and always will be what is best for DD.

My kids have had experience that made them "grow up" fast both positive like moving to France and living a different culture and very negative....DS1 first week at the Bilingual school in France still scares him...he was called a dirty American, spit on and sat on all in front of the principal and teachers...even when we talked to the school about this and that he was coming from an environment where you wait your turn in line and are not allowed to touch another child aggressively etc and to please support/help him through the transition...they told us he would learn and boys would be boys...and plus since he was smart he would have to "catch up" socially! He was miserable....refused to use the restroom at the school and when after in the 2nd wk I pulled him out because my fun loving happy go lucky smart little boy who use to LOVE school son ran after me and begged me crying not to leave him with these "bad" French people (broke my heart) and I got no help/understanding from anyone including the English teacher who could only tell me it was time for him to be in class...I left with him and never returned and never regretted my decision (even though DH didn't support it)! In 3rd Grade at the new school he faced bullies but he had more confidence in himself, his French, and the school and although he had some hard times socially not because of his age but because he was the only American in the school he left France with wonderful memories and great friends.

We have a had a very different road educationally that what is typical here in the States but the reason I posted first was to say that it is possible to have a positive experience in school being the youngest...and being the oldest is not always an advantage! And a date on a calendar shouldn't dictate things it should be a guideline for the parents/educator to do what is best for that individual child.

Sorry...this is long AGAIN...

BTW the current cutoff here in NJ is Oct 1

[sewarsh]

plusbellelavie - that's a really impressive story. thanks for posting.

[momof2girls]

QUOTE=g-mama;3057546]BTW the current cutoff here in NJ is Oct 1

Just to clarify...cutoff in NJ depends on the town. We are in NJ and are Oct 1, but my sis is in another town in NJ (Union County) and the cutoff there is Dec 1. :)

[clc053103]

Sewarsh, I totally agree with your post- having gone through the exact same thing last year. Knowing that what I was doing (that is, following the guidelines set forth by my district) was right, but having people, including ones that never met DS, tell me I should hold him back just because he was a summer birthday.

What are your guidelines for the district- ours has no "standards". They simply want kids that are the right age, turning 5 by Sept 1. If the district has academic or social standards, review them and see if you feel your DC would be ready according to their guidelines. You could always make an appointment with the Principal to discuss as well. And most of all, follow your gut and make no excuses for doing what is right for your child. Good luck!

[MSWR0319]

But, is it really normal to expect a 5yo boy to sit still?

I think this is such a slippery slope. Obviously in a school where redshirting is the norm then no on time kid will stand a chance eventually. the teachers will get used to teaching older kids, the curriculum will start to shift...I told one of the schools we looked at tthat it sounded like they should just be honest and say that kids need to be 6yo for their program.
Beth

I didn't mean to come across saying kids should sit completely still. I meant sitting still relative to their age. ITA that this is a slippery slope. I believe that you can only do what's right for you. I like these posts because its interesting to see how things are in other areas of the country. I've never heard the term "red shirt" used anywhere except college athletics until I came to this board.

I think you bring up an interesting point about curriculum shifting as well. Our state's curriculum has shifted immensely in the last 5-10 years. By the second month of school mom is having to start working on letter sounds/combinations because they are required to be able to read by a certain time due to state mandates. A few years back she didnt cover things like that till spring. She worries because some of the kids don't even know their letters by then and fall behind without help from home. I don't know why the mandate changed, but the curriculum is definitely changing.

[MSWR0319]

I'll also point out, though, that there are "problems" that present themselves for some kids who are the oldest. My DD is going to miss the cut-off by just under three weeks, and will be the oldest in her class when she does go. I have concerns, because I know parents whose kids have been bored, acted out as a result of being bored when they'd never acted out in preschool, and are physically tall and big and are outsiders that way. I am somewhat concerned about DD having these issues, because she's been in daycare, now preschool, for a long time, is very socially self-assure (I wish I was at her age!), is over the 97th percentile for height, and as a result of being at her daycare/preschool, I worry that she's getting a little bit of "big fish in the small pond" feeling, as she's sort of a senior statesman now. Honestly, if I could have her tested to enter kindergarten this year, I would.

There's no one right answer for everyone-- while if your DD doesn't seem ready, that's one thing. I just wanted to point out that there are potential risks
and benefits to both. I swear to DH that if we ever have another child, which isn't something that's going to happen any time soon, I'm shooting for a
February/March baby so that I don't even have to think about this.

I didn't mean there weren't some problems with holding, I just meant from my experiences it seemed more beneficial to wait vs send. That being said, we will be in the same state with DS. He misses the cutoff by 13 days. Academically I know he'd be ready. He's already way above kids his age or a little older. My guess is he may get bored, but I trust that the teachers will challenge him if needed or put him in the gifted class. As far as being the "biggest" that doesnt worry me too much. I have a March bday and was the tallest person in my class until about 6th grade. Yes, it affected me as everyone made fun of me, but it was nothing I could control. I was surpassed in height the following year by the youngest boy in our class. I think the key for OP is just to take feedback from whomever she trusts and weigh the options, ultimately choosing what's best for her. There's no right or wrong here and someone will always have an opinion that you did the wrong thing.

[boolady]

Just to clarify...cutoff in NJ depends on the town. We are in NJ and are Oct 1, but my sis is in another town in NJ (Union County) and the cutoff there is Dec 1. :)


Huh. I didn't know that. All of the towns around us and where I grew up are 10/1. You learn something every day!

[Kindra178]

Huh. I didn't know that. All of the towns around us and where I grew up are 10/1. You learn something every day!

And Morris County is September 30, at least Florham Park area. NJ has always allowed each district to set their own standards. It really affected people who moved from one school district to another midschooling.

[indigo99]

I was always one of the youngest (actually started when I was 4 and turned 5 after about a week of K), and I think that I should have been held back another year or two. My sister was a couple years older, and I think it was just more convenient for my parents to have me start school early.

I did very well in school academically (graduated valedictorian), but I was immature socially. I wouldn't speak to my kindergarten teacher. I'd even send my best friend to ask her when I needed to go to the bathroom. It's a bad cycle because if you start out quiet and shy then you're labeled that way. You're treated differently which makes you act even more shy and insecure.

If there's some question about a child being ready then I'd personally wait a year and work on building up their self confidence first.

ETA: The cutoff here in TN has always been Sept 30, and it looks like it still is. I started at 4 since my bday is 9/9. DS is 8/31 so it looks like I'm going to have this decision in a few years.

[g-mama]

plusbellelavie - thanks for taking the time to post your story. :)

[emily_gracesmama]

My second daughter is an 8/14 birthday and I can already see I won't hold her back unless it is recommended to us. She actually knows more at her age than her sister did, the only thing we're going to stuggle with is her listening and compromising skills, cause she is darn hardheaded! I know people that hold the younger ones back feeling they will have a better advantage being one of the oldest vs. youngest in their class, but I think if the child meets the cutoff and is academically ready, there's no reason to keep them back unless there is a serious social or emotional shortfall compared to their peers.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

Is waiting out a year supposed to improve confidence? I'm wondering because it seems my son has the opposite situation. Being younger has really boosted his confidence. Although, I'll be honest, the kid really didn't need any boosting. (We are encouraging more humility and understanding of how everyone does things at their own pace.) Just last night we were having dinner with friends and he was saying how he got all the spelling words right and he's so much younger. :p I mean, this other kid is like 7, or 8 or something. (7, almost exactly one year older than my son.) They seem to know which kids are older and how they are doing. If a child is a year older and doing the same things, it seems like that could have the opposite effect as intended.

[sste]

I think GaPeach has a good point about whether the waiting improves confidence, maturity, and social skills. My sister was held back for immaturity and let me tell you THIRTY YEARS later she is markedly immature for her stage of adult development.

I was also thinking a little during my son's preschool evaluation this fall about how "one mold" early childhood evaluation and standards can be. At the evaluation, they told me DS tends to wander around the room and explore his own interests and do his own thing rather than socializing in groups or always following the circle time routine. There was a pregnant pause while they waited for me to respond. At last, it dawned on me they thought this was a NEGATIVE thing and in fact an issue of development. I was truly perplexed as to what to say . . . I mean, they had just described my entire CAREER!! Which I am good at and very happy with. DS will get more respectful of circle time I am sure but he is always going to be somewhat of a thoughtful, quiet in groups, wandering around type of kid . . . which is fine with me, I think what is called "leadership" in early childhood is highly over-rated.

[o_mom]

Is waiting out a year supposed to improve confidence? I'm wondering because it seems my son has the opposite situation. Being younger has really boosted his confidence.

I agree that this is a concern. DS1 missed the cutoff and is 'old' for grade, though as a PP said with all the red-shirts, he is more like oldest 1/4 rather than where the cutoff would put him. He does much better as the youngest of a group when it comes to social behavior. When he is the oldest, he tends to drift down to the youngest behavior level.

Also, I know that one boy in DS2's class many times says things like "DS2 how can you do that and I can't when I'm a year older?" This is a child held out for social reasons - his confidence is taking huge hits on things that he just hasn't learned yet because he didn't go on time, but he thinks that he should be able to do them since he is older.

Just two more antecdotes.... :)

[g-mama]

Is waiting out a year supposed to improve confidence? I'm wondering because it seems my son has the opposite situation. Being younger has really boosted his confidence. Although, I'll be honest, the kid really didn't need any boosting. (We are encouraging more humility and understanding of how everyone does things at their own pace.) Just last night we were having dinner with friends and he was saying how he got all the spelling words right and he's so much younger. :p I mean, this other kid is like 7, or 8 or something. (7, almost exactly one year older than my son.) They seem to know which kids are older and how they are doing. If a child is a year older and doing the same things, it seems like that could have the opposite effect as intended.

My 1st grade son, whom we held back, definitely grew in confidence and self-esteem the year he waited. *This* - precisely what you've just said - is why, IMO, the INDIVIDUAL personality of each child makes all the difference in the world when making this very personal decision for one's own child. My son is so unaware that is he is now on the older end of the age range in his class. He would never dream of bragging or patting himself on the back. Please, take that the right way. My 4th grade ds, OTOH, would absolutely do that and thinks he's pretty hot stuff. :p My 1st grader is very meek, mild-mannered, struggles with self-esteem, feels that he is far from being smart (though he is)...if asked, he'd say he has very few friends, while his teacher(s) tell me he absolutely does and is very well-liked. It is his unique, individual personality that caused us to give him an extra year to develop and blossom. He is tiny (less than 1st percentile), shy and quiet.

Other than the generally-agreed upon wild and crazy reasons for holding back (sports, driving, etc.), it is impossible to say that what is right for your child is right for anyone else's. I have had people IRL who say they can't fathom why anyone would hold a child back, meet my little boy, be shocked to hear he was held back because he does not seem older than his peers (in fact seems a bit younger), and then wholeheartedly agree that he is practically the "poster child" for a boy who would benefit from being held back.

[AnnieW625]

Just to clarify, :), my DD did go to K. It was just a private, half day K vs. our public, full day K. But it was a certified K program that sends a lot of kids straight to first grade.

thanks for clarification. I misread it the first time!

[sewarsh]

But it was a certified K program that sends a lot of kids straight to first grade.

This is what I'm looking at now.

If I hold DD back and send her to the 5-day Pre-K program at her preschool it will be $4000 for 1/2 day program + $750 for enrichment program if i choose to send her til 3pm rather than 11:45 for one day, which she does now. Given this + the fact that I'd most likely pay for her to do extended day at the Kindergarten which = $2000, we're spending close to $7k. That's more than some of the accredited private Kindergarten programs in the area that are 3-day 1/2 day and 2-day full day.

Given this, we are now looking at private preschools that have accredited Kindergarten programs that would allow her to go straight to 1st grade or repeat Kindergarten in the public school, whichever we choose for her next year.

[carolinamama]

FWIW, my younger DD was born less than 2 weeks after our 9/30 cut off. I wish I could send her to K a year "early". We thought about ways to make it happen, but have decided to just roll with it for now.

I actually had someone ask me last week if I would try to get DS2 in a year early since he's big for his age and a second kid. Our state does have a process for this but I hadn't even thought about it. Guess we will see when the time comes since he's only 2 now. Maybe your state has a testing process as well that you could do with your DD?

[crl]

We held ds back. He was enrolled in public preschool as a special education student. That extra year made a huge positive difference for him. He went from needing an aide to help him focus for long enough to write his name to being able to independently listen to and implement his teacher's instructions so well that he helped other kids out. In my view, if he had gone to K on time, he would have needed substantial support from special education aides. Instead he was able to function independently. That is a huge difference, and I think it makes a huge difference socially as well. I think he would be much worse off socially if we had put him into k on time.

As far as how we decided, I felt strongly that the skills he was working on were preschool skills, not K skills. And that was ultimately the determining factor.

I know most others on this board hold the opposite view. And I don't think that most kids benefit from being held back. But I think it is worth considering for some children.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

My 1st grade son, whom we held back, definitely grew in confidence and self-esteem the year he waited. *This* - precisely what you've just said - is why, IMO, the INDIVIDUAL personality of each child makes all the difference in the world when making this very personal decision for one's own child. My son is so unaware that is he is now on the older end of the age range in his class. He would never dream of bragging or patting himself on the back.

Oh no worries. We know our son has a tendency to be a bit of a braggart, so we are working on tamping that down. He doesn't realize he's bragging, just stating facts, so that is something he needs to learn.

[llama8]

Just so you know, the cutoff where I live in NY (Long Island) is Dec 1st. So a summer birthday is not even a consideration for holding kids back here.

I would never hold a kid back based on birthday...only if there were true issues. Most kids even out eventually and a birthday is not a sole indicator of skill or maturity.

I teach high school and some of my kids born in November (at the end of the cutoff) are the best students. It really is a non-issue unless there are other factors at play.