Where do you prioritize SES diversity and inclusion in school planning? [Archive]

sste

03-07-2011, 03:17 PM

So, I calmed down - - thanks in part to the edifying and helpful posts here. We did move outside of the city but to an economically diverse inner-ring suburb. I ended up with DS enrolled in a preschool that awards alot of scholarships and he is waitlisted for a very interesting private preschool that staffs their 14-child classroom with three teachers so they can service kids with special needs (1 teacher serves as an aide if a special needs child is enrolled). Our local public elementary seems like a good and in some ways very interesting option, with adequate funding - - children of parents living in million dollar plus homes and also 10% lower income kids. I think I was just feeling very gun-shy after things went downhill so quickly in our prior inclusion daycare. Anyway, I feel better about the entire thing and it worked out for the best - -we were thinking about moving to a scary-affluent suburb where DH and I would not have fit in. You know, the type where people on Saturday are dressed in great gatsby style chinos when you run into them at the fish store on the marina. We are too scruffy-liberal for that. Thanks posters!
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This is a depressing post. DH and I have always been strongly pro-inclusion and diversity - - these were top priorities to us assuming that the setting provided care/education that was at least "fine" or "acceptable." When many of our peers enrolled their kids in preschools with bogus british names or 20k year tuitions we enrolled in a mixed-income school that also partners with the easter seals to provide inclusion classrooms.

Our first year experience in this school was awesome (it was cash flush) . . . but in year two the school lost much of its public funding and things have gone pretty far south. They are now serving a population that requires more staff power than average and when they lost funding they lost that staff power. You just can't have 3 special needs kids in a 20 child 3s classroom with 2 full-time teachers. The other issue is that I have noticed that lower-income parents, in general, are not as demanding and are more respectful of teachers. IMO, this means the school "gets away with" things that would never fly in with an upper-income demogaphic. And my child said "it's mines" for a solid year though I can live with that one.

Now that we are deciding where to move to DH and I have taken pretty much the polar opposite approach, we feel in part as a result of this experience. In light of the poor economic times, I am only willing to move to a super well-funded public school district - - which means a homogenous high-income district. I am pro an inclusion classroom *only* with appropriate ratios and aides. I ideally want a group of fellow parents at the school who are more intense, demanding, and difficult than I am (this is saying something) and will ensure excellent amenities.

I am a little sad over this. Has anyone else experienced this or feel similarly? I realize this may not be PC but I have been "in the trenches" so to speak and dh and I have come out of this feeling like, "If we have been turned off, and we are total bleeding hearts, then what does this mean for diversity in public education?"

Globetrotter

03-07-2011, 03:29 PM

I realize this may not be PC but I have been "in the trenches" so to speak and dh and I have come out of this feeling like, "If we have been turned off, and we are total bleeding hearts, then what does this mean for diversity in education?"

Yes, I can totally relate to this because we struggled with this, too. We moved into a district because of the high scores, but then later I realized what that meant IRT SES diversity. In this time of budget cuts, this is no small thing.

Our current school is SES diverse but top notch, and that is very very rare (it's a commuter school so people come from different cities, from very wealthy to low-income neighborhoods).

I have found that my ideals have been challenged as my kids have grown older. We were redistricted into a high school where about half would be lower income. I think that's great, but unfortunately it comes with gang problems, too. A few years ago, there was a shooting across the street (drug violence) It's easy for me to say that we should be inclusive, etc.. but I am struggling with this decision because I also value my child's safety! That is a big reason I am also pursuing charter schools, where you get the diversity but the kids are motivated to be there so less chance of gangs, I would imagine.

arivecchi

03-07-2011, 03:33 PM

I agree with your sentiments for the most part sste. I think if you move to certain burbs here, diversity is virtually nil. I think in the city, you can get diversity and more involved parents in the magnet schools as well as in private schools. The private school that DS is attending has some diversity but I think the parents are from similar socio-economic backgrounds.

niccig

03-07-2011, 03:37 PM

Honestly, a lot of my education philosophies went out the window when it came to my child and what I want for him.

I am a supporter of public schools...I will vote to increase tax for our schools, they need more money, I will give more of my money. But we opted for private as it better serves DS's needs and is the kind of education we want him to have. So, we voted with our feet.

ThreeofUs

03-07-2011, 03:45 PM

I agree with Nicci. I am a strong supporter of public education and full inclusion. But I visited our local school and was appalled by what I saw. Had DS1 been a normal kid, I still would not have sent him there.

His private school is depressingly white to me, with only a few AA or Asian families, but it's right for him. He needs the special features of the school (small class sizes, emphasis on development at his own pace, lots of attention from older kids, etc.).

Diversity is a great goal, but should not be a straight jacket.

Seitvonzu

03-07-2011, 03:56 PM

after i worked as a long-term sub for a special ed teacher in an inclusion preschool room (2/3 "typical" children (but all lower income/at risk -- in our school district you have to "qualify"), 1/3 special needs (automatically qualify for pre-k)), i told DH that i would have NO problem removing future children from classrooms labeled "inclusion."

here is how i see it-- when people think of "inclusion" they are imaging a scene from that tv show "life goes on." corky, the sweet and loveable character that just happens to have down syndrome learns how to function in a "normal" environment, while all the other "normal" kiddos are elevated in their compassion, acceptance & tolerance, by his sweet and loving nature. it's a win-win for everyone! right?

this is NOT how "inclusion" works in our school district, unfortunately. special needs means EVERYONE -- physically handicapped, developmental disorders, and --- EMOTIONAL DISTURBED!!!!!!! in my work experience this meant sheilding the other children from a child who was creating unsafe situations (throwing unit blocks, hitting, kicking, biting) or yelling obscenities from timeout (what four year old knows terms that made my nearly 30 year old self blush???!?!?!?!), etc. it was unsafe. period. if i EVER here that my child is in a classroom with a kid like that, i'll be down at the school. it's not safe.

it is also extremely distracting for the "normal" kids. this is where things get a little less definitive for me. i think that there are lots of special needs that can be addressed in an inclusion environment given , like you mentioned, the right resources (i.e., LOTS of available teachers/aides to differentiate instruction and make sure that everyone is coexisting in a way that is win-win for ALL students). unfortunately, the system is pretty strapped. and lots of kids are going to fall through the cracks :(

after working on the special ed side of things, i realized that in that system, the special ed kid is the priority-- and raising the question "what about the other 8 kids?" is NOT a valid concern. this is the way it should be, because the special educator should be the sped kids advocate...but that means that for MY CHILD, i MUST BE THEIR ADVOCATE. the sp.ed. kid has his educator/aide/coordinator/parent/thelaw, and my child gets approx 1/20th of the reg educator's advocacy-- maybe less, esp. if they aren't a problem ;) so...it's up to me.

it's up to you to do what is best for YOUR kid. primarily to me-- i'll keep my child SAFE first. a child can't learn if they feel unsafe. basic needs must be met for higher ones to be acheived. the truth is higher SES schools are going to be safer (not a guarantee of course, but you're working with averages and best guesses here)

egoldber

03-07-2011, 04:28 PM

By targeting high SES areas you will avoid economic diversity, but not inclusion. Inclusion is the main model for special education these days for many reasons, not the least of which is even high SES areas struggle to have enough teachers to balance class sizes and meet the needs of all their kids. But a high SES classroom will likely still have many children with identified disabilities of various sorts. And yes, these kids sometimes take more attention.

Parts of our district are very high SES. But children whose needs are more severe (severe autism, Down syndrome, intellectual disabilities) are more likely to be in targeted programs. But there is a huge range of children with mild to moderate needs and these children are all in traditional classroom settings throughout the district.

So all of that is to say I don't think you can avoid inclusion unless you go high end private.

sste

03-07-2011, 04:35 PM

niccig

03-07-2011, 04:41 PM

I was really taken aback that this year they went to the absolute max on ratio AND treated special needs kids (including those with handicaps affecting PTing and significant emotional special needs) just like typical children in that max classroom number. That is not fair to anyone. At the district we will likely move to I would be surprised if that happened - - there would be a one one one aide or aide for a couple of special needs kids.

No it's not fair, but if they don't have the money for extra staff, this is what happens. Classroom sizes are increasing everywhere. Around us, more expensive school districts seem to not be as affected - they do a LOT of fundraising to make up for difference in funding.

Reality is more money from property taxes/fundraising = more services for the kids, more extra curriculars, smaller class ratios.

Talk to families in the district you're looking at, and they may be upset that class size increasing, but it might be less than the neighbouring district.

SnuggleBuggles

03-07-2011, 04:42 PM

I abandoned our public schools, which are super diverse in a lot of ways, because it just was a bad fit for what I wanted for ds. I feel guilty for "white flight", the families that can afford to leave and make education a strong priority leave and the families that are left are more apathetic and things don't improve (that's the expression and description my ds1's former preschool director used). I feel like the parents that really care should stay there and work to advocate and improve things...but I didn't. So, I made the choice to look for other options even though I support the public schools. At the end of the day I just didn't think I was going to make a difference at the public school. I could be a squeaky wheel but I didn't have the confidence that things could change. It's a hard choice.

Beth

bisous

03-07-2011, 04:43 PM

I think I just must view education differently than most. I don't have a problem with the practicality of inclusion. The situations I've seen with education that I dislike have to do with too many kids to teacher ratio. However, that can be found in ANY district here in So Cal. Some of the schools with the best funding are title 1 schools (so they have a lot of programs, resources, etc.) but they are still moving closer to 30 to 1 in elementary grades.

I also agree with Beth that high income area does not avoid inclusion of students with disabilities. I support including all kids, but maybe that is partially because I have "one of the hard ones." I know that I learned a lot in the classroom setting and NOT just about academics. I think inclusion can be challenging for the teacher but my experience is that teachers with true "hearts" for education welcome the opportunity to make a difference in a child's life. I know from experience 3 wonderful individuals that have asked for kids that are suffering and that they know they can help.

I have to be honest that I'm a little bit baffled that parents from uber educated backgrounds are concerned that their kids aren't getting enough from their elementary schools, though. Seriously, the basic literacy required for further study in middle and high schools can be attained just by breathing the air of a literate home. Obviously I'm exaggerating but it is my observation. I didn't go to "the best" school or anything but by high school and later college just the way that we lived at home caused me to be light years ahead of most of my classmates. I really think that most of your children with be just fine academically speaking!

Now, for full disclosure, I homeschool. Not really because I found my current schooling situation to be totally unacceptable but because DS is a really different kind of learner that also has some challenges. He has Type 1 Diabetes and ADHD (diagnosed). As such, I know for a fact that I could lobby to have a full time aide for him (2 kids at his school with just Type 1 Diabetes successfully got aides for their children!) but I felt like this was an irresponsible choice FOR ME. I knew full well that I could provide for his educational, emotional, and health needs perfectly at home and I couldn't fathom making the state pay a full salary of someone just for DS. NOW if his "disability" was such that school was the best option for him (for example if had AS disorder) or if I had to work to support my family or if I didn't have the resources or education to homeschool, I wouldn't think twice about sending him to school. As it is, I felt badly about asking for stuff that we didn't "need".

niccig

03-07-2011, 04:45 PM

I feel like the parents that really care should stay there and work to advocate and improve things...but I didn't.

Beth

We had friends that tried, and then changed schools as they were not going to have their DC's education affected and knew the change would take years. They were not willing to wait years. I know it's tough..we did the same thing. We could go elsewhere, so we did.

ETA. I'm not talking about inclusion, that wasn't a consideration for us. I'm talking about overall education philosophy, large class sizes etc. DS has a boy with special needs in his K classroom and it seems to be working out fine for everyone. DS's class has 2 full-time teachers and the boy has his own aide - so yes it's working out as there is enough adults to give everyone attention.

Katigre

03-07-2011, 04:48 PM

One thing that might make you feel better is NurtureShock's (the book) finding that diverse school experiences did not decrease the incidence of racism/prejudice. I was pretty shocked at that, but what they explained made a lot of sense to me.

sste

03-07-2011, 04:54 PM

Bisous, I see your point about early elementary being not such a big deal if you are coming from an educated home. That is EXACTLY the way we felt about pre-k befpre this experience. But, what we discovered is that beyond anything educational it is hard to see your child in a chaotic, understaffed, disorganized early childhood environment where at best they are getting extremely limited attention and at worst there are safety concerns.

Katigre, thank you - - I am going to read that because that was one of my concerns.

sste

03-07-2011, 05:01 PM

You know, I wanted to add about special education and inclusion and the SES:

I also think another piece (in addition to the important piece of whether you have aides and adequate special ed support) is that school-supported "disabilities" probably aren't evenly distributed across different socio-economic populations. So, in the high-income area we will likely move to what I anticipate is a very high level of DIAGNOSED and IEP'd disabilities -- in fact, the tendency if anything is toward more adhd and other diagnoses because parents can afford private testing. Also, another ugly reality is that having a severely disabled child may have a negative effect on your SES (my parents experienced this with my brother - - those services can strain family resources quickly).

Now, this is what I saw in the low/mixed income setting. In addition to the three kids in my son's room who were identified and entering through a disability organization, there were other kids who also appear to have some sort of emotional or other challenges. And no their parents are not rushing to private testing. Those kids also count as "typical" and don't officially warrant extra aides. And what incentive does a public school (esp. an underfunded one) have to identify disabilities and screen for emotional disorders? Quite the opposite, it is a liability and won't happen without either parent agitation about a very disruptive situation or private testing.

bisous

03-07-2011, 05:19 PM

SSTE, reading your message more carefully, I see your concern. I also think the point you made about things not being diagnosed makes sense. However, I also have a mom who teaches in a low income school and she frequently attends SST meetings to help diagnose or ID kids that she has difficulties with. The school doesn't not diagnose because they are afraid of accommodating the child. Diagnosis usually comes about because there is a need there that cannot be met through the usual means available to a teacher. It brings about access to resource teachers, and possibly medical or therapeutic intervention. It is always undertaken to improve the learning experience of the child and the rest of the class.

I can't argue your point about the parents advocating more strongly in higher income districts, though. Perhaps you have a point there.

I'm sorry for your negative experience. I have to say that (and again this is anecdotal) but I would love to have my DS be in a class in my Mom's school. They are wonderfully organized and I know many of the teachers. These teachers are AMAZING in part because although the district is poorly funded, the teachers are among the best paid in the county. Maybe that's the secret, lol!

Gena

03-07-2011, 05:21 PM

But, do you think I can avoid the under-staffed inclusion scenario? To be clear, my objection is not to inclusion with the appropriate aides, support services, supervision, and safety controls . . . it is with the "chuck the kids" in the classroom model of mainstreaming I am seeing in underfunded programs. Admittedly, I am at the pre-k level but our preschool actually was operating under city public school contracts.

I was really taken aback that this year they went to the absolute max on ratio AND treated special needs kids (including those with handicaps affecting PTing and significant emotional special needs) just like typical children in that max classroom number. That is not fair to anyone. At the district we will likely move to I would be surprised if that happened - - there would be a one one one aide or aide for a couple of special needs kids.

Personally, I think it really depends on the individual district and the local community's committment to the public schools.

Our school district is not high SES. My son goes to a Title 1 school, meaning a significant percentage of the student population is considered to be disadvantaged. Our area has been very hard hit with economic problems and the school district has had to cut some personnel and services. However, our community has a very strong history of passing school levies (although not always on the first try).

In (public) preschool, DS was in an inclusion classroom. There were 8 kids with Special Needs and 4 kids without. The class had 1 teacher and 2 aides. This was the only type of classroom our district has at the preschool (pre-k) level. In that way it is very different from the inclusion classrooms in grades kindy and above.

Starting in Kindy, the district offers different classrooms for kids with different special needs: severe autism, moderate-mild autism, emotional disturbance, etc, as well as inclusion classrooms and mainstream classrooms.

In Kindy, DS was placed in the moderate-mild autism classroom. This is a multi-grade classroom (K-2) and all the students have goals toward mainstreaming. DS's class had 7 students with 1 teacher and 3 aides. DS received Speech Thereapy, OT, and Adaptive Physical Education (APE). He also had time in the sensory room every day.

This year, for 1st grade, DS is in the autism classroom part-time and the regular 1st grade classroom part-time (this is a mainstream class, not an inclusion class). When DS is in the mainstream classroom, he has a one-on-one aide to assist him with functioning in the class. Additionally, DS get speech therapy, OT, APE, and pull-outs for reading enrichment (he reads well above grade level). This year, he gets time in the sensory room on an as needed basis.

My son receives great services from an amazing staff at a school with a low SES status. There are nearby districts where the SES is much higher and the services are not as good.

sste

03-07-2011, 05:31 PM

Gena, that is wonderful. :)

Really, this is one where I am HAPPY to be proved wrong! Perhaps other factors influencing my personal experience are that I am in a very large city and that it is pre-k where I assume there aren't IEPs available (??).

I am just bummed. I always had such a happy vision of diversity . . . and now I feel like we are just another migratory family in the white flight. A big issue for DH and I is that "what happens in bad economic times." As far as I can see, diversity, inclusion, and mainstreaming all work *with* ample funding.

As I mentioned, I loved our set-up last year and wouldn't have traded it . . . when that funding was cut it was a night and day difference. :(

cuca_

03-07-2011, 08:06 PM

The other issue is that I have noticed that lower-income parents, in general, are not as demanding and are more respectful of teachers. IMO, this means the school "gets away with" things that would never fly in with an upper-income demogaphic. And my child said "it's mines" for a solid year though I can live with that one.

Now that we are deciding where to move to DH and I have taken pretty much the polar opposite approach, we feel in part as a result of this experience. In light of the poor economic times, I am only willing to move to a super well-funded public school district - - which means a homogenous high-income district. I am pro an inclusion classroom *only* with appropriate ratios and aides. I ideally want a group of fellow parents at the school who are more intense, demanding, and difficult than I am (this is saying something) and will ensure excellent amenities.

I am a little sad over this. Has anyone else experienced this or feel similarly? I realize this may not be PC but I have been "in the trenches" so to speak and dh and I have come out of this feeling like, "If we have been turned off, and we are total bleeding hearts, then what does this mean for diversity in public education?"

When DD1 started K we were in a very diverse school district with a substantial lower income population for whom (for the most part) English was a second language. We experienced exactly what you described. The school was not used to parents who were strong advocates, and did not know what to do with us. To complicate things, DD was in an inclusion classroom where her educational needs were not met. She has LDs and ADHD and her work was not tailored to her needs at all. I would never enroll my kids in a school like that again, but it really saddens me that the system basically "takes advantage" of those parents who are not able or do not have the resources to successfully advocate for their kids.

As to your concern about inclusions programs, I would research the services and reputation of the special education programs in a particular district. In my experience, the better and more generous the SE programs are, the fewer problems you will have with lack of necessary resources or improper placement.

Also, beware with focusing on the wealthiest, "best district". I have a friend whose kids go to one of the top districts in our area, and she is not happy with the "culture." That district seems to have tons of snotty kids, weird social hierarchies, and a lot of bullying, etc..

elektra

03-07-2011, 08:13 PM

There is an old thread on this general topic that I will always remember. I remember JoyNChrist's post specifically. Might be interesting, at least from a guilt assuagement standpoint. ;)
http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=286237&highlight=education&page=2

vludmilla

03-07-2011, 08:43 PM

this is NOT how "inclusion" works in our school district, unfortunately. special needs means EVERYONE -- physically handicapped, developmental disorders, and --- EMOTIONAL DISTURBED!!!!!!!

It may be that I work in a therapeutic support program with adolescents who are classified as ED, but this really bothers me. Maybe it was the ALL CAPS and the multple exclamation points. I don't think you really mean to imply that all children with ED should be segregated away from "normal" kids but that does seem to be what you imply. I guess I am extra sensitive to this because the bulk of my work as a school psychologist is with a group of truly wonderful ED adolescents who are almost completely mainstreamed. Many of the ED!!! kids that I work with are the most compassionate, sensitive, and thoughtful adolescents that I have ever met. I really hate the stigma that persistently follows the ED kiddo.

egoldber

03-07-2011, 09:17 PM

naam

03-07-2011, 09:28 PM

ha98ed14

03-07-2011, 10:12 PM

this is NOT how "inclusion" works in our school district, unfortunately. special needs means EVERYONE -- physically handicapped, developmental disorders, and --- EMOTIONAL DISTURBED!!!!!!! in my work experience this meant sheilding the other children from a child who was creating unsafe situations (throwing unit blocks, hitting, kicking, biting) or yelling obscenities from timeout (what four year old knows terms that made my nearly 30 year old self blush???!?!?!?!), etc. it was unsafe. period. if i EVER here that my child is in a classroom with a kid like that, i'll be down at the school. it's not safe.

This is not worded nicely, but I think there is some truth in your observations.

Two years ago, DH (4th grade gifted class) had a student who had Aspergers. He was incredibly bright, but had no emotional control. He would blow up at classmates and DH if he was frustrated or if he didn't get his way. When he was raging, he was totally out of control. He threw a desk across the room. There was no aide because the student wasn't severe enough to qualify for one on his IEP. DH just dealt with it as best he could. DH would usually have the student take a walk outside until he could calm down. Fortunately, DH is a man (duh) and that carried weight with this student. The student obeyed the instructions of DH better than he had from female teachers.

DH and I talked a lot about it and he was convinced that the best place for this student was in the regular classroom. DH admitted that when "Billy" was raging, the classroom stopped. There was nothing he could do to shield the 32 other kids except to usher the raging student out of the classroom ASAP. Had I been a parent of a typically developing child who was in that class, I would have pulled her out. No way would I want my DD in a class with a child like that. No aide. Nothing. Interestingly, DH thought that I would have been overreacting to pull DD out. He thought that the other kids were not so negatively impacted that it warranted changing classrooms. I really do not understand his position. But he's been a teacher for over 10 years, all of it in 4th grade, so I do believe he knows what he's talking about.

maestramommy

03-07-2011, 10:17 PM

sste, I'm sorry your experience has been so unfortunate. Particularly so because I was under the impression that CA is tops for special needs education, at least until the economic meltdown, and ensuing crisis. Our district preschool is an inclusion school. The classes are made up of 50/50 typical and special needs mix. The special needs could be anything. In Arwyn's class there are 2 boys that are high functioning autistic, and a little girl with CP. They are the most apparent, but there are probably others with mild needs like speech only, which is what Arwyn has. Dora's class has our neighbor's DS, who has Downs, and a little girl who has, among other things a serious heart condition whose name escapes me. The "apparent" needs kids have either a one on one full time aide, or on some days share a full time aide. There is also the teacher, and the teacher assistant. The class has 13 kids. Our town is in general, an affluent one, and mirrors our state in diversity. Which is to say, there's hardly any racial-ethnic diversity.

I feel like we pretty much fled CA with all of it's diversity and the issues that can come with it because among other things, we didn't want to compromise on our kids' education. Having said that, we're still committed to public ed, and simply wanted to find a place where we could feel good about sending our kids to public. Now at the moment we don't have funding issues per se, but because quality of education in NH is directly tied to property taxes, every year the educational advocates in our town go toe to toe with the die hard fiscal conservatives that want the lowest tax rate possible, and fight tooth and nail against them ever going up. The state is currently cutting their education aide to all towns and cities. In the next 3 years they are threatening to decrease their contribution to practically $0. I don't know what that means for our town specifically, but it can't be all that good. For certain there will be a protracted battle between the two sides. I worry about spending cuts to special ed, although we do have a local Spedpac that is very active.

You need to do what you think is best for your DS, but I will say that there is a balance between what cuca said about snotty wealthy districts and districts that are so heavily burdened (our nearby metro area is like this) that special ed services are just not up to par.

niccig

03-07-2011, 10:34 PM

ha98ed14

03-07-2011, 10:48 PM

I think we'll see more of this as the public school budget crisis continues. With less funds, less teachers and aides and more kids in a classroom, none of the children, typically developing or special needs, will get what they need.

We have friends with a son in 5th grade with ADHD. They've given up on the local school as with 35 kids, his teacher couldn't do what he needed. Legally they're supposed to, but with that many students, how can ONE teacher do it all? They moved him to a private school that has the resources, but kept their younger DD at the local school - they said she is flourishing there and the larger class sizes are not having the same impact.

FWIW, DH agrees with this 100%: Teacher's can't do it all, BUT most kids will do great if they have a loving home, good nutrition, and a parent/ guardian who is keeping tabs on their school experience. It's because most kids are within 95% of the mean for intelligence and social development, and those are the kids that public school has the best potential for educating well in a typical classroom. It's those with special situations* that are most at risk for falling through the cracks. With the budget cuts, I think we're going to see a lot more kids falling through than we did in better economic times.

* Special needs include physical, social/emotional, and mental disabilities, but also students who are super, super bright such that they have special needs for enrichment and, often times, social skills development.

egoldber

03-08-2011, 07:42 AM

Two years ago, DH (4th grade gifted class) had a student who had Aspergers. He was incredibly bright, but had no emotional control. He would blow up at classmates and DH if he was frustrated or if he didn't get his way. When he was raging, he was totally out of control. He threw a desk across the room. There was no aide because the student wasn't severe enough to qualify for one on his IEP. DH just dealt with it as best he could. DH would usually have the student take a walk outside until he could calm down. Fortunately, DH is a man (duh) and that carried weight with this student. The student obeyed the instructions of DH better than he had from female teachers.

And this is exactly the kind of scenario that I think could happen in ANY district, no matter the SES level. A kid with this diagnosis, but able to function at a high level, is not going to have a full time aide in any public school district that I know of. Even the flushest of districts do not have a plethora of full time aides. But they are certainly NOT going to be in a full time special education classroom because that is also not an appropriate placement.

I suppose that at a high enough SES level, parents of students like this may be able to pay the $30-$40K a year for the annual tuition of a special needs private school. But many parents do not necessarily want that placement for their child even if they can afford it.

cuca_

03-08-2011, 08:31 AM

And this is exactly the kind of scenario that I think could happen in ANY district, no matter the SES level. A kid with this diagnosis, but able to function at a high level, is not going to have a full time aide in any public school district that I know of. Even the flushest of districts do not have a plethora of full time aides. But they are certainly NOT going to be in a full time special education classroom because that is also not an appropriate placement.

I suppose that at a high enough SES level, parents of students like this may be able to pay the $30-$40K a year for the annual tuition of a special needs private school. But many parents do not necessarily want that placement for their child even if they can afford it.

I can tell you that in our district students with lesser issues than that have individual aides. Our district does not have true inclusion classrooms, so children are either in a self contained classroom or in a mainstream one with an aide, or a combination of both. So higher functioning kids are usually placed in a mainstream classroom with an individual aide.

vludmilla

03-08-2011, 09:14 AM

And this is exactly the kind of scenario that I think could happen in ANY district, no matter the SES level. A kid with this diagnosis, but able to function at a high level, is not going to have a full time aide in any public school district that I know of. Even the flushest of districts do not have a plethora of full time aides. But they are certainly NOT going to be in a full time special education classroom because that is also not an appropriate placement.

.

I agree completely. I see this happen in the district that I work in that is very high SES. We also have an extremely well-regarded special education program that has been cited for its merits in national newspapers. We used to have a plethora of aides and teaching assistants but even with our very considerable financial resources, we've had to cut back considerably and TA's and aides are often the first to go before teachers or other professional staff.

brittone2

03-08-2011, 10:20 AM

Gena

03-08-2011, 10:31 AM

here is how i see it-- when people think of "inclusion" they are imaging a scene from that tv show "life goes on." corky, the sweet and loveable character that just happens to have down syndrome learns how to function in a "normal" environment, while all the other "normal" kiddos are elevated in their compassion, acceptance & tolerance, by his sweet and loving nature. it's a win-win for everyone! right?

this is NOT how "inclusion" works in our school district, unfortunately. special needs means EVERYONE -- physically handicapped, developmental disorders, and --- EMOTIONAL DISTURBED!!!!!!!

In the show "Life Goes On", Corky was NOT in an inclusion class. He was mainstreamed. There is a big difference between inclusion and mainstreaming and I'm really surprised that as an educator you do not know that.

(I also do not know of any school districts that use the educational classification "Emotionally Disturbed" at the preschool level.)

Mainstreaming means putting a child with special needs into a "regular" classroom and expecting the child to perform like a typical student in a typical environment. In a way, it is an attempt to "normalize" the child. Part of mainstreaming mindset is often the idea that the student ought to earn his/her place in the regular classroom by demonstrating typical academic and behavioral performance. In mainstreaming, a student who needs extra therapies gets this in "pull-out" sessions away from the regular classroom. This is a traditional model of special education.

Inclusion is based on the idea that special needs students should be educated along side typical peers to the maximum extend possible. Instead of trying to change the child's basic nature to fit the mold of the traditional classroom, the classroom environment is adapted to be approapriate for all students. Students who need support services or therapies get them in "push-in" sessions, where the services are offered in the classroom as much as possible. This is a newer model of special education.

In the real world, what happens is often somewhere between these two ideas and schools may use partial mainstreaming, partial inclusion, and other variations. And sadly there are many, many situations where these models are poorly executed. You can't just throw a few special education students and an aide or two into a regular classroom and call it "inclusion". Real inclusion means changing the whole educational approach and mindset of the classroom.

Also, many school districts use an inclusion model at the preschool level and then switch to a mainstream model for kindy and above. So preschool classrooms are often not a reliable indicator for how this is handled at the higher grade level.

In my experience, many people say that they support inclusion, but they really support mainstreaming. They are OK with the idea of having special education students in the regular classroom, as long as those students look and act like the typical students. They feel that special education students should be seperate classrooms until they earn their place in the regular setting.

kijip

03-08-2011, 11:33 AM

Considering I send my kid to the least diverse school one can find- our dining room table- I have had to walk away from my ideals on diversity in favor of what is best for my own child. Being in school with emotionally disturbed kids in a more diverse K program with over extended, over worked cranky teachers and then switching to a more middle class, well off, high fundraising program for 1st grade with 4 serious bullies targeting him with hands off, ineffective disciplinarian teacher and principal pretty much turned my opinion of public school in its head. I no longer think our public schools are an appropriate option for my son, period. And I don't care in the least about the diversity of his education at this juncture. That is a huge departure for me to make.

brittone2

03-08-2011, 11:39 AM

I started a new thread but if anyone is interested, today's Diane Rehm show is discussing class size and student achievement, as well as touching on topics like inclusion, teacher burnout, etc.

It is on WAMU and WUNC currently. Other NPR affiliates may carry it at other times. It will be available via podcast tomorrow I believe.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/

sste

03-08-2011, 11:43 AM

They are OK with the idea of having special education students in the regular classroom, as long as those students look and act like the typical students. They feel that special education students should be separate classrooms until they earn their place in the regular setting.

Well, I am just speaking for myself but I did very much support what you describe as inclusion - - and still do with appropriate aides and support. I think our situation was pretty extreme - - at a three year old-level classroom there were multiple special needs children without any extra staffing beyond the 1:10 ratio. I should clarify they had an extra part-time staffer above that but it was the director's 80 (yes 80) y/o mother who uses a cane, lived in a corner rocking chair and couldn't get out of it without a struggle. This is what I mean about parent acceptance too -- parents would not have stood for that in higher SES programming.

Perhaps what I am getting at is that is very important that ALL parents have good experiences with inclusion/mainstreaming and SES diversity from the outset. Because otherwise you end up cultivating resistance and discomfort with that model.

I do think vludmilla and egoldber are right that even high SES areas are facing cuts and fewer aides. But, is it is really the case that in Westchester or Lake Forest or Weston the parents in a classroom would be OK with a child throwing a DESK?!? I think I trend toward taking on more of that kind of risk for inclusion purposes and I would draw the line at desks flying in my child's classroom - - they would need an aide pronto or they would need to bolt down all the freaking desks! I mean, is that unreasonable?

ThreeofUs

03-08-2011, 11:55 AM

I have run programs for people with developmental (and emotional!) disabilities, and I support full inclusion with my life's blood. Unfortunately, full inclusion in any situation is hostage to funding. When a support system is reduced to least-supports status, people with disabilities cannot get the support they need to be full and active members of their communities - and that includes schools.

sste, I think you're right about a reasonableness test, especially when there is a danger-to-self-or-others issue.

It's really sad, but practically speaking there is nothing to be done about it except develop natural (generally unpaid) supports.

Kindra178

03-08-2011, 11:57 AM

Where's Lolabee? She has great personal experience and insights into this topic. Our future school is a Title 1 school, with about a 15% low income population. I will be interested to see if the SES mix is what I expect it to be.

egoldber

03-08-2011, 11:57 AM

sste, I don't know those school systems, but I assume they are affluent.

I can tell you that in affluent schools, these things do happen. Really. Your child may not tell you, so how would you know? And what will you do? It doesn't matter if you are not OK with it, you cannot demand that child be removed from the classroom. Their child has as much right to be there as yours does. You can demand that your child be kept safe. You could maybe ask for a classroom transfer. But ultimately you would have to pull your kid from the school to totally prevent it.

How many times have we heard about parents here dealing with bullies and the schools are non responsive. Even in affluent districts. This is NOT a low SES school, lack of parent advocacy issue. This is the reality of large group schooling.

We were warned away from the school we are currently in by a former parent. She said her child witnessed obscenities yelled by special needs kids to the teachers, violent kids, etc. I have seen nothing like that in our year. But I don't doubt those things happened in her kid's class. It is a total crap shoot what you will get in your kid's class in any given year.

Just to be clear. My point is not that these situations are ideal. They are hard on everyone including (and perhaps especially) the parents of the children who need extra support. My point is that targeting a high SES district does not eliminate problems. It may re-direct to different types of problems. I think that being in a high SES district often makes parents feel more comfortable regardless of the reality of the actual classroom situation.

sste

03-08-2011, 12:14 PM

Hmmm . . . well, I guess this makes me feel better in that I am currently about 5-10% priced out of the affluent (short-commute) area I want to move to!

AnnieW625

03-08-2011, 12:24 PM

I feel the exact same way you do. I went to public school from kindergarten through college, and even though I grew up in a pretty middle class "good old boys" city in Northern California there was still diversity at all of the schools I went to in my city. I moved to Long Beach almost 6 yrs. ago and I absolutely hate the idea that if my daughter does go to public school it won't be the school that is 500 ft. from our house. I absolutely hate that I am not comfortable with the 70%+ socio economically disadvantaged student body and the bussing from other poorer areas of my city that goes on at our school now. Neither DH nor I feel comfortable sending our children there and we've heard good things about the principal (who is on year 2 of most likely only a 5 yr. assignment at the school) and the teachers seem happy, but there are still way more non neighborhood kids there than there are neighborhood kids, and that's a big deal for us. Plus the budget cuts are going to be really bad and the cost of after school care at some of the schools is $5 an hour and for a kindergartner with 7 hrs. of care per day (can't count on extended day kindergarten being available next year) that after school care is still $150 a week. That's $50 more or so a month than our top Catholic school including after school care.

Like Beth (Snuggle Buggles) said I don't think as a FTWOHM I don't think I could do enough to fix the squeeky wheel at our home school so unless DD1 doesn't get into the top choice Catholic school next year and she does get into the top public choices in our area I don't really see her going to public school until at the least jr. high.

ha98ed14

03-08-2011, 12:26 PM

I do think vludmilla and egoldber are right that even high SES areas are facing cuts and fewer aides. But, is it is really the case that in Westchester or Lake Forest or Weston the parents in a classroom would be OK with a child throwing a DESK?!? I think I trend toward taking on more of that kind of risk for inclusion purposes and I would draw the line at desks flying in my child's classroom - - they would need an aide pronto or they would need to bolt down all the freaking desks! I mean, is that unreasonable?

FWIW, this school *IS* in a high income area! It is one of the top 5 schools in a district of over 20 (It's an elementary-only district.)

If parents complained, and I don't do if they did either way because DH tries to protect student privacy (even tho on bad days he will come home and unload on me and that was a bad day.), if they did, there is not a lot the school can do. Here is why:

In California, there are two special groups that are guaranteed an "appropriate education": identified special education students (have IEP) and identified gifted students (based on test scores, like it or not). This student was BOTH! He had a right to be in the all-gifted class, and no one could really object to his special need/ disability because according to his IEP, he belonged in that classroom BECAUSE he was so bright. His behavior was known to be worse when he was not being challenged.

If the parent of a classmate complained, all the principal could have done was pull that parent's child out of the classroom. That's it. He is a protected class. For good or for ill, there is nothing the school can do differently. FWIW, the parents are very high income executives for a major entertainment corporation located in SoCal. They were not hurting for money.

Gena

03-08-2011, 12:34 PM

Well, I am just speaking for myself but I did very much support what you describe as inclusion - - and still do with appropriate aides and support. I think our situation was pretty extreme - - at a three year old-level classroom there were multiple special needs children without any extra staffing beyond the 1:10 ratio. I should clarify they had an extra part-time staffer above that but it was the director's 80 (yes 80) y/o mother who uses a cane, lived in a corner rocking chair and couldn't get out of it without a struggle. This is what I mean about parent acceptance too -- parents would not have stood for that in higher SES programming.

I did not mean to imply that you personally do not support inclusion. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Your situation was extreme and I am sorry that you and yout child were put in that situation. This why I said that schools cannot just put special ed students and a few aides in a classroom with typical kids and call it "inclusion". That's NOT inclusion; that's setting people up for disaster.

But I think your difficulties with lack of parental involvement and advocacy have to do with more than just SES. We have quite a few lower SES families here who are very outspoken about their children's education. But you and I live in areas that are very different in terms of city size and cultural diversity and I think that may make more of a difference.

Perhaps what I am getting at is that is very important that ALL parents have good experiences with inclusion/mainstreaming and SES diversity from the outset. Because otherwise you end up cultivating resistance and discomfort with that model.

I completely agree with you. That's why schools who claim to have inclusion classrooms must practice true inclusion. Not just do lip service to the idea of inclusion while not suppling the resources and training needed to make inclusion work. Again, whether or not the schools have those resources depends on the community's level of commitment. SES can factor into that, but again is not the sole deciding factor.

In my area, the districts with the highest SES deal with this issue by sending nearly all of their Special Ed students to out-of-district placements. They can afford to do that. So that is their level of committment to special needs kids. Maybe that's considered a good solution for classroom management, if you can get past the message it sends. (I'm not saying that all districts with high SES do this.)

sste

03-08-2011, 01:00 PM

Oh no, Gena, I didn't read your message as implying that. I just wanted to clarify - - I guess I am feeling a bit defensive. But not at anything you said. My own sibling was in special ed/mainstreamed for virtually all of his schooling. And I can't believe I now feel this sense of unease about it! It feels awful.

Haged, what an interesting situation - - I suppose there is no other appropriate placement for that boy if he is gifted. Your DH sounds like an awesome teacher so hopefully he can prevent this . . . but the issue I see is that if the school can't support that child to control the outbursts then the kids are likely to start taking the "discipline" into their own hands. In a variety of unkind and even cruel or violent ways. That is a very negative situation.

Gena

03-08-2011, 01:14 PM

In California, there are two special groups that are guaranteed an "appropriate education": identified special education students (have IEP) and identified gifted students (based on test scores, like it or not). This student was BOTH! He had a right to be in the all-gifted class, and no one could really object to his special need/ disability because according to his IEP, he belonged in that classroom BECAUSE he was so bright. His behavior was known to be worse when he was not being challenged.

Yes, the child is part of a protected class, but that does not mean that this tyoe of behavior should be tolerated. In situations like this, the school is supposed to conduct a Functional Behavior Assessment and then implement a Behavior Intervention Plan. The goals of this plan are to help the student aviod situations that trigger certain behaviors and to teach acceptable replacement behaviors. If needed, the BIP can call for changes to educational strategies and/or the physical environment. The BIP becomes part of the student's IEP. The individual teacher should not be alone in determining how to deal with a child who throws a desk.

ha98ed14

03-08-2011, 01:18 PM

Haged, what an interesting situation - - I suppose there is no other appropriate placement for that boy if he is gifted. Your DH sounds like an awesome teacher so hopefully he can prevent this . . . but the issue I see is that if the school can't support that child to control the outbursts then the kids are likely to start taking the "discipline" into their own hands. In a variety of unkind and even cruel or violent ways. That is a very negative situation.

At the 4th grade level, the worst that this student suffered (to my knowledge) was being excluded. He didn't have any lasting friendships because of his outbursts directed at people he spent time with, but he wasn't taunted or assaulted (thank heavens!). I believe his parents are considering an arts magnet jr high & high school. I don't think they plan to send him to the jr high to which his elementary feeds.

Second, I am gonna as the mods to change my name. I keep getting hag, hagged, haggard... I feel bad about my virtual self! ;)

egoldber

03-08-2011, 02:28 PM

I guess I am feeling a bit defensive

I have to say I was too :o in no small part because my DD has emotional outbursts in class that I *know* are distracting.

And I totally agree that the behavior should not be "tolderated", but at the same time, it is not always that easy to resolve these issues.

ellies mom

03-08-2011, 02:32 PM

For my husband and I, the quality of the school is by far the most important thing. Diversity is great but not at the expense of a good school. We luck out because our school district is small (one high school, two middle schools), very SES diverse and the district works hard to make sure that all kids go to a great school regardless of their neighborhood. The kids from the "poorer" neighborhoods aren't bussed across other neighborhoods to richer neighborhoods so much as the boundaries are mapped out in a way that there is a decent range of incomes in each area. The fact that we've got a big stinking hill in our city that makes direct routes to anywhere difficult really helps out. So in that sense, we've got that down.

Racial/Ethnic diversity is a little more tricky. The PNW is just very white. And in Portland at least, the schools that tend to be the most diverse are also the worst. So our aim, is for our daughters to not be the only "brown kids" in their class. Our elementary school is about 80% white but that number also includes the Muslim and Indian kids so there is more diversity in the actual classrooms than the number shows. We were actually pleasantly surprised but like I said for us it is a bonus.

And inclusion, like the other "diversities", it is more of a bonus than a priority for us. There seems to be a variety of different strategies in place from what I can see. In nursing school, we spent time in the special ed classes in my district, so I worked with the kids who will likely never be mainstreamed. In my daughter's class there is one student with an aide and a few students that are pulled out for extra help but I don't know the "official inclusion policy".

Like other posters have mentioned, all of that is ideal and if I have a choice between a great school with all of that and a great school without it, then yeah, we'll chose the school with all sorts of diversity. But if it is a choice between a great school without much diversity and a crappy school with lots of diversity, well the great school will win out every time.

Tracey

03-08-2011, 02:50 PM

I have to say I was too :o in no small part because my DD has emotional outbursts in class that I *know* are distracting.

And I totally agree that the behavior should not be "tolderated", but at the same time, it is not always that easy to resolve these issues.

Yeah, that!

How many posts are there on this board from parents who have trouble controlling the behavior of their own children. Now imagine the teacher, armed with a behavioral plan that says something like "student sits at the front of the class" and a class of 30 kids and an aide is supposed to control the spitting, hitting, and desk throwing. A severely autistic child in our high school has beaten, that's right, BEATEN about three different aides now. Any takers for that job? She cannot be suspended or removed from the class because of behavioral issues as they are part of her disability.

maestramommy

03-08-2011, 02:54 PM

Yeah, that!

How many posts are there on this board from parents who have trouble controlling the behavior of their own children. Now imagine the teacher, armed with a behavioral plan that says something like "student sits at the front of the class" and a class of 30 kids and an aide is supposed to control the spitting, hitting, and desk throwing. A severely autistic child in our high school has beaten, that's right, BEATEN about three different aides now. Any takers for that job? She cannot be suspended or removed from the class because of behavioral issues as they are part of her disability.

Oh wow. I know there are severely autistic children at the HS, a friend from church works as an aide there. I can't imagine. In Arwyn's class one of the boys has had outbursts before but at 3-4yo they are still easily restrained by an adult. So the other kids feel safe and barely notice (really I was watching and was impressed that it didn't really disturb classroom routine even when the kid had a major meltdown). But for a 16yo to have an outburst it must be rather scary.

KpbS

03-08-2011, 02:56 PM

I ideally want a group of fellow parents at the school who are more intense, demanding, and difficult than I am (this is saying something) and will ensure excellent amenities.

This stood out to me. Diversity and inclusion issues aside, you may want to look into some private options. I am a supporter of public education and I had a great education (private elementary, public jr+hs) but I think that parents who are more intense/demanding/etc. are more often found at privates than public schools, on the whole.

DS1 goes to a private school with an academically challenging pace. I chose it for its academics and small class sizes (~14/class). It is a fairly diverse private for our area. It is not the most expensive private nor the trendiest private. My experience has been the parents are pretty involved and value diversity and academics. It is a great fit for DS1 which I think is most important.

egoldber

03-08-2011, 02:57 PM

I agree with the PP that if you really want that, then you are likely looking at private school.

Gena

03-08-2011, 03:07 PM

Oh no, Gena, I didn't read your message as implying that. I just wanted to clarify - - I guess I am feeling a bit defensive. But not at anything you said..

I undserstand. I get defensive too because DS is partially mainstreamed and I know that some of the parents of his classmates are not happy with DS being in the class.

snowbunnies300

03-08-2011, 03:48 PM

Frankly I get the feeling that posters believe that the special ed students have some kind of "untouchable" status in the schools and get away with murder while the normal developing children are just thrown to the wolves to so speak. I'm sorry but these posts make me feel like no one wants my children in school because of their disability. That my children take away from other children and their education.

I am not certain I understand why a student who beats their aide is not removed from the class. I personally know of a child who was removed from the classroom. It can be done. The school district can determine that they cannot provide the correct and proper education for the child and therefore look at alternatives. Whether it is busing to a different school or providing private one on one education. The child I know about had one on one for part of a year where they worked on social skills and slowing intergrated back into the classroom.

There are things a school can do. Whether they want to is another story and has nothing to do with the child.

Tracey

03-08-2011, 03:56 PM

Where do I prioritize SES diversity and inclusion in school planning? They aren't even on the radar.

What I want is a school community where the children and the education of those children is a top priority in the children's homes. I think most parents give education lip service while they are too busy working to make ends meet, engaging in disfunctional relationships, and dealing with their own personal problems to have much left over to supervise homework, read, teach values espoused by all major religions, etc. I want my child to enjoy school and not be chanined to worksheets that teach to standardized tests. I want the class size to be such that the teacher is able to do his or her job and not just go through the motions. Yes, I know there is research that says class sized doesn't matter....bull. I'm not buying it. Lawyers, would you be able to offer the same quality of legal service if you had to double your billable hours? Please. There are only so many hours in the day. If all this can be had with diversity thrown in, that's great. If not, I won't sacrifice my child on the altar of idealism.

I am 100% for public education, but there are just too many problems in my community for me to go that route. Here are a few of those problems as I see them:
1. counterproductive state and federal laws
2. apathy - on everyone's part...students, teachers, parents, the community
3. moral decay - principles like hard work, industry, honesty, respect, compassion, and nonviolence aren't being lived
4. lack of stable family structures
5. isolationism vs. community (yes, I am guilty of this one by choosing private)
6. belief that everyone can "be whatever they want to be" --- no, you can be whatever you have the talent, drive, determination, and willingness to work for. Your wishful thinking will not make you an astronaut. While everyone should have equal opportunites, people are not equal in their abilities and not everyone needs or should go to college. We need to quit devaluing other types of work. I want vocational education back. I want apprenticeships back.

Tracey

03-08-2011, 03:59 PM

There are things a school can do. Whether they want to is another story and has nothing to do with the child.

The school went through due process with this child twice. The courts would not remove her.

snowbunnies300

03-08-2011, 04:25 PM

Tracey

03-08-2011, 04:55 PM

Tracey thank you for replying. The school did use it's power to try to make a change. This shows my previous point that special ed students are not "untouchable". The school did exactly what they should have done. If the courts didn't remove her did they say why? What evidence did they give that the school could provide the proper and safe conditions for the other school children and staff? This is interesting to me.

I have no idea. There are privacy laws involved and the details were never discussed. The only reason I know what I do is because of other members of the student body who witnessed the "fits" and resulting aftermath would talk about it. I know that the aides were injured enough to make them quit the job, but no other details.

american_mama

03-08-2011, 05:26 PM

edited: My complete post did not show up due to a slow connection, so I re-pasted it.

My children go to an economically and racially diverse school with 75% of children receiving free or reduced lunch. My thoughts on your situation:

1. I think you need to find out a lot more about your local public school. You seem frustrated with your preschool experience which is leading you to tar the public school with the same brush. I do not have experience with a preschool that collaborates with a public school, but in general, I think public schools operate at a higher level of funding, staff resources, and legal requirements in terms of special ed that may mitigate or avoid some of the preschool problems you had.

2. Even at my low income school, there are 1:1 aides for kids, reading specialists who monitor small groups of kids during whole group reading time so the classroom teacher doesn't get bogged down explaining things to them/regulating behavior. The elementary school has multiple special ed teachers and aides, a guidance counselor, multiple reading teachers, two math specialists, a school social worker, a district psychologist, and full-time teacher aides in the lower grades (for every classroom, not just related to special ed students). There are lots of staff available to help students with learning or behavior problems. I think the school environment is orderly and well-behaved, and I would not expect problems with children creating un-safe environments for classmates or disrupting the classroom environment. When there have been discipline problems, I know our principal has done things like pulling the child from the classroom for the day, calling parents to take their children home, in-school suspension, and/or permanent suspension. If the behavior problems were for special ed/learning disabilities, I believe our school would work to meet that kids needs with a spec ed classroom, 1:1 aide, pull-out for help in the area of a learning disability, etc.

3. I live in an area where the public schools are well-run and decently funded. It is possible for that situation to exist with even low SES public schools, so check it out in your area. It is also possible that a higher SES area has its own challenges with education. The neighboring county from me has wealthier families and higher SES in many of their schools, but there is also more resistance to property taxes, so their schools seem to suffer more budget woes. They have bigger class sizes, more temporary classrooms/facilities, more cuts to enrichment activities like art and music, more pressure on parents to fundraise. (Apologies to anyone in my area if I have mischaracterized this.) Are you willing to live with some or all of these downsides that might come with a higher SES school?

4. Is your local school a Title I school and has it won any awards for being a good Title I school? This is a new topic to me, but Title I gets a school extra money to help students who come from disadvantaged environments and these things often can benefit the school as a whole (lower class sizes, extra staff like reading and math specialists that work with the whole school, etc).

5. I'd try to attend a PTO meeting at your prospective school, or talk to the PTO president, and see what it's like there. Does the principal attend or is he resonsive to parents? Is there enough involved parents to have an impact? And at the high SES school, what is parent involvement like? I know high SES families at my school who don't do anything with the PTO - they're busy, they're not interested, whatever. I've heard parents at another school are kind of over-involved in the PTO, somewhat dictatorial with the principal, interested in their student only and not the school as a whole.

Well, I'm not sure if I've remembered your concerns accurately or not, but as a highly educated parent who sends her kids to a low SES school - it can work. I was afraid that the kids would be rough and tough becasue of their lower SES, but I have not found that to be a concern. Are there long-term benefits to being in a diverse environment? I don't know. I'm willing to give it a try. In the short term, I like seeing my kids play with a wide range of kids and think they are a little more knowledgeable about the world than they would be in a homogenous environment.

My biggest concern with a low SES school relates to not having the added X factor of classmates who comes from enriched background. This is not an issue for DD2 so far, who is a very on-grade-level kindergartener, but my DD1 has always been ahead of grade level and usually leads her class without much effort at all. I often wonder what her academic development would be like with the added bonus of classmates who can challenge her, add their own ideas, best her in math, etc. And I often wonder what the classroom environment would be like when lots of the kids' in the class are prepared for school, behaving well, above grade level and the teacher can take that group and go above and beyond with it.