Waldorf schools???

[Uno-Mom]

What do you know about them?

DH and I recently started thinking about Sprog's education choices. It's early yet, but it's on our mind because our town is about to close our neighborhood school. :( It's also on my mind because there is a super-beautiful looking Waldorf school downtown in our small town. They have the COOLEST playground ever! So there must be something to like...?

I won't bore you with the vague things I've heard about the Waldorf philosophy. I haven't researched much yet. I'd just like to hear what you know and if you've had any experiences with it.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I was intrigued by the one near me and researched it for ds1 on their website first. I opted to read their parent handbook online and I wasn't sure it was a good fit for our family as they were pretty strict about media in a way that we aren't. In practice it might be different but it scared me off. I di love a lot of their ideas though, especially in the early years.

I only know 2 kids that have attended it. The one was in ds1's 1st grade. She was repeating 1st grade at the new school. Her parents didn't think she had gotten a very good academic foundation at the Waldorf school and she was behind for most of that year. She hasn't been in ds1's class since then but I think she caught up without trouble. The other one is there now after having been home schooled. She just started this year, 2nd grade. So far so good. I know it was the only school her mom was willing to accept for her as it was the dd that asked to be done home schooling (mom was disappointed).

I think the best thing to do is go in for a tour while school is in session. Pay attention to class sizes in elementary school if you are considering it as beyond preschool. See if numbers really dwindle and when they dwindle.



Beth

[daisymommy]

Cut and pasting something I wrote previously, plus a few discussions we have had (sorry it's not fresh material ;)).

I have studied a lot about Waldorf, both as education and as a parenting style/home-life philosophy. Some of it I love, some of it makes me cringe. So I take and toss what I want from it, like many things in life.

In a nut shell, it is nature based, gentle & slow, emphasizes not pushing the child before they are ready to do anything, protects the senses, believes home is the foundation for everything.
In many uber-traditional Waldorf schools they still believe in the same religious philosophy (called Anthroposophy) of it's founder, Rudolph Steiner, which states that a child is is still incarnating their soul down from heaven and adjusting to life here on Earth for the first 7 years. Then they are "allowed" to read and do book learning. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS (Just wanted to get that out there for the record!)

My personal thoughts/opinions:
-We used Waldorf based curriculum & methods for preschool through first grade with DS when we homeschooled. I LOVED it, he loved it, it was a blast and such a gentle, beautiful, nature-based way to learn.

-We still have a "Waldorfy" type of home setting here (natural, slow and gentle, protect the senses, open ended play, etc.)

-Waldorf goes all the way up through high school, but I think most people consider it for their little kids. I would be okay with my kids going to a non-Anthroposophy (religious) Waldorf preschool, and maybe the younger years (up to 2nd grade perhaps). I love the way things are taught--so creatively. But this style isn't for everyone. You would have to know alot about it and know your child well to see if it meshed with them.
I would not feel comfortable with my kids being in a W school for too many years, for so many reasons. There are kids that end up in middle school that still can't read, because the teachers didn't want to force the academics on them before they were ready. Because maybe their soul wasn't ready to be fully incarnated here and grounded in academics. No, I'm not joking.

-Much of Waldorf is based on anthroposophy--a religion akin to Catholicism, combined with something else sort of new-agey. Not all schools now days believe in it or follow it anymore, or have any of their methods revolve around it. But you need to know about this so you can decide for yourself what you believe, and ask questions when you visit schools.

Heres the awesome Waldorf forum over at Mothering.com (MDC)
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...play.php?f=285 (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=285)

A couple of books I have seen recommended are:
http://www.amazon.com/Waldorf-Educat...ref=pd_sim_b_4 (http://www.amazon.com/Waldorf-Education-Pamela-J-Fenner/dp/0964783215/ref=pd_sim_b_4)

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-...ref=pd_sim_b_2 (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Waldorf-Education-Teaching-Inside/dp/0876592469/ref=pd_sim_b_2)

And a pretty good in a nut shell article/website:
http://www.suite101.com/content/guid...rgarten-a61354 (http://www.suite101.com/content/guide-to-waldorf-education-the-kindergarten-a61354)

Previous Discussion here on the BBB:
http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=336056&highlight=waldorf&page=4

http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=374986&highlight=waldorf

[crl]

I looked at a Waldorf school for ds for preschhol based on an educational consultant's recommendation (he is special needs). It seemed like a lovely, calm place. But not very accepting of differences. They said they would take ds, but only on a trial for 2 weeks. Well, he is a very anxious child and it would take him at least two weeks to settle in to a new school. And having to change schools would have been horrible for him. Reggio Emilia philosophy is that every child is competent. Waldforf seems to me to hold the opposite view (all that crystal child stuff and souls not being ready for reading.)

I have a friend who sent her ds to a public Waldorf for K and 1st. He is repeating 1st at a "regular" public school this year because he was not progressing academically. This appears to be a common story of Waldorf schools not doing academics on the same time table as other schools.

Personally, I would not consider a Waldorf school. And I would suggest looking very carefully and committing fully to Waldorf through high school if I were considering it past the preschool years.

Catherine

[pinkmomagain]

There is something very lovely about Waldorf. I feel very lucky that there is one in town and they have a summer camp program that my kids have gone through/are going through. It is very calm and nature based which is a nice change from the academic pace of their public school year...particularly for my anxious kids.

However, it is very expensive to send them there for school, don't agree with their academic pace (reading begins in 2nd grade), and I worry that it might be too gentle, hippie-like to prepare them for college and the "real world" -- whatever that is. So I don't send them there for school.

I too have heard of trouble kids have if parents decide to pull them from Waldorf and place in public school...the kids are behind academically.

[Laurel]

If you check out the MDC Waldorf forum, make sure to also look at the thread titled "Life After Waldorf" in the Personal Growth forum.

My advice to people is usually to run fast away. I think it is pretty much like a cult and I do not say that lightly or mean to offend. I know some here have chosen Waldorf and have not had issues. I can't ignore that I have heard about the same horrifying things happening at Waldorf schools all over the world (and in my own town).

I think the thing that bothers me the most is how much is kept away from the parents...you'll hear from parents "that stuff doesn't happen at my school" or "they don't talk about anthroposophy". Well, the common practice is to NOT even mention anthroposophy to parents or be vague if asked about it. But is it generally guiding major decisions in the classroom and at the school while not being shared with the parents. I find this deeply disturbing. I also am bothered by the assimilation aspect.

Debbie Downer, over and out.

[zoestargrove]

we looked into a waldorf school this past winter. I loved the nature and creative arts emphasis, and use of high quality materials. This particular school had small classrooms and mixed grades which I also liked. The teachers were warm and shared a philosophy of raising children similar to my own. The anthrosophy aspects I've read about don't jive with me, but this school didn't seem to be entrenched in that aspect. From what I've read and from the answers I received from the teachers is that the Waldorf curriculum is on a different time schedule from a traditional curriculum. They will be learning some things ahead of the public schools and other things will be introduced later which is why it would be a difficult transition to pull a child out of waldorf after a year or even two and placed into another school system. My understanding is that at the end of say 6 years students from both schools come out to the same place of learning.

hope that helps some.

[ezcc]

I also find something a little off-putting about Waldorf, although there is certainly much that is appealing as well. We did not really consider it, but I need to mention that my cousins both went to a Waldorf school- one went for 12 years and went to Georgetown and is a successful financial something or other in London. The other went through 8th grade and is currently at MIT and is doing very, very well. He is also a track star and accomplished cellist. So I would not necessarily be concerned about transitioning to other places/success in the real world issues.

[zoestargrove]

Laurel,

I've read through the MDC posts and my spidey sense was up when I visited my first Waldorf school a few years ago. Something about the school didn't feel comfortable to me despite the beautiful warm colors, etc.

The school I visited recently though was a new school - not accredited Waldorf (they called it waldorf inspired). I had hoped that they were perhaps taking the best of waldorf and leaving behind the stuff that made me uncomfortable. I don't know though. Your response about them being vague about discussing anthroposophy with parents makes me wonder. When I asked if they considered themselves 100% waldorf or if not being accredited allowed them the flexibility to take from other educational philosophies I was told that they were new and that their goal was to become accredited and they followed only waldorf.

The other part about the school that I liked was that to keep tuition affordable they required a lot of volunteerism. I don't know exactly how much classroom time that would mean, but it did give me hope that I could be involved as much as I wanted.

We can't afford the tuition right now, so it's a non issue but I so wanted to send my boys there. There was just so much about it I loved, but your post and the MDC boards makes me unsure if I just didn't see/sense the bad because I wanted to love it so much or if maybe this school is not like the others.

sorry to ramble.

[Melanie]

My kids go to a Waldorf school and we make many sacrifices for them to do so. We adore it. Feel free to ask me any questions. I agree to check around the Waldorf forum at MDC. It's a little safer than here, and can provide another point of view.

As for the Life After Waldorf thread, thankfully it's been moved out of the Waldorf forum, so you will have to search at bit for it, there. I wouldn't say not to read it, because those are people's experiences that they have had. One thing that I do believe is that every school is different...and everyone's opinions and impressions of the schools, sometimes the same ones, is different. Definitely check it out for yourself, perhaps many times. Go to the events, ones for prospective parents and their faires. If there are discussion evenings, go and listen, meet people. Just sit and Listen (sometimes listening to the parents around you is as equally informative, if you know what I mean. ;)) I always wonder why there's no support thread for those who have suffered greatly at other typical schools? Surely there are huge atrocities kids' suffer there...you see them in many individual threads here any every board. Yet this educational philosophy seems polarizing.

AND the cult...I get it. I do. We work hard to provide a certain atmosphere for our children...it's hard to get together with other friends who live so differently. I can understand how those 'left behind' may feel like we've joined a cult. In our case we started early so we haven't left a lot of people, or any really. But it is a struggle for me when we do get together with friends who's kids live so differently and are just a stream of media-laden play and devices.

As for academics, yes a child who switches in kindergarten, first, second, probably even third grade and maybe even fourth (depending upon the individual child) will be "behind" academically when changed to a public school. You really have to commit to those three years if you're going to do it, or plan to pay tutors. They will also have learned many other things that their new peers likely never will...or not for many years. Know that there is a reason and a philosophy behind how they teach and when they teach. Read about it...ask questions. I think big problems happen when people get all starry-eyed and blindly switch without doing their research.

Good luck to you! I hope you find what you're looking for, wherever. And I'm sorry about your neighborhood school. The same thing happened to me as a child. My parents moved around the corner from the school...then it closed after Second grade. It was a huge bummer, to say the least.

You are welcome to PM me any questions.

[AnnieW625]

I love the idea of Waldorf toys, and the Waldorf play philosophy, but when a preschool near us opened up and I did a bit of research I just didn't get it. I read some posts somewhere, either here or Mothering.com and then the following year I attended their harvest faire and well I noticed a few things: DD1 didn't feel comfortable, there were bratty non well mannered children running around the babies and older toddlers without noticing what the babies/toddlers were doing (and I am sure that this normal in lots of other schools too, but I hadn't seen children that out of control at the other local preschools I had visited). I knew one other mom there and no one else made any attempt to say welcome to our school or thanks for supporting our programs. I thought that was odd. In the end it ended up not being an option for us because they didn't have full day preschool/daycare and the tuition for the preschool through kindergarten is more than what we will pay for non subdized Catholic education for DD1.

Also when doing my research I found the applications for the school in my old hometown, and while I am very open about things in my life I felt that the applications really crossed the line of how much information I would've felt giving out on a child's preschool application. The breast feeding question really rubbed me the wrong way; I still love my children even though I stopped breast feeding them when I returned to work when they were four months old.

Pre School Application (http://www.daviswaldorf.org/documents/2011-12PreschoolApplication_002.pdf)
Kindergarten application (http://www.daviswaldorf.org/documents/2011-12KindergartenApplication.pdf) (the grades application is similar so I didn't put a url for it)

I don't want to offend anyone, but just based on the parents I met/encountered at the harvest faire and the few parents I used to work for in my hometown that sent their children to Waldorf schools they were "Crunchy, and or ex Hippies with lots of money" and if that wasn't 100% you then they weren't really interested in talking to you.

ETA: Melanie-- can you explain your views about media in your home and the children? My friend who is probably the most crunchy person I know (vegan, homeschooling, extended breast feeding, cloth diapering, and makes 99% of her own food at home using raw and vegan techniques, as well as makes her own soaps, and lotions) is a former model, and her kids are very normal and have Disney passes, Disney stuff and plastic mainstream toys, but a giant 50" plasma tv. So probably not the norm in the Waldorf community, but exactly what is the norm?

[crl]

Melanie,

Just curious, do you believe in anthroposophy? My view is that part of the reason Waldorf can be polarizing, more so than other schools, is that the underlying beliefs of Waldorf are obsured from the parents and so people feel betrayed down the road. Do you find that not to be true?

And does your Waldorf school welcome a diverse student body, ie special needs kids, variety of incomes and family configurations, etc? Because I think that can be another source of polarization, that some kids/people are not welcome at Waldorf schools (and I'm not talking about people who aren't willing to commit to the educational philosophy). Is your experience different?

Thanks!
Catherine

[Melanie]

I am a Christian and there are aspects of Anthroposophy are not in line with my beliefs. However I welcome other religions and view points in my children's lives from many areas...including teachers and classmates (there are many religions represented amongst other families). I, personally, have yet to see or hear anything that has left me feeling uncomfortable. It's funny, if I talk to a conservative Christian, they will say my children are learning all sorts of "Pagan" things at school. Talk to someone with a different religion and they will say the school teaches too much from a Christian point of view. And then online everyone is also crying it's a religious Anthroposophical school, which apparently horrifies people.

It is hard for private schools to accommodate special needs due to the lack of teachers available. From what I have seen, those that can be accommodated with a little extra help are. And of course those who are physically disabled are accommodated. But unfortunately from, the schools that I have viewed, those who require full-time extra help to be successful cannot be accommodated. I wish for a day that this won't be the case and I am truly saddened that it is not because I believe every child can benefit from a Waldorf education. ESPECIALLY those with special needs in regards to learning. That is one of the things that most attracts me, how they teacher the children in so many ways to try to reach out to the many different learning styles. I have seen schools give it a very good try to help children with learning or other mental disabilities, and some can stay and be successful. It's very sad to have to say good bye to a child, for any reason, but in particular it breaks my heart when the school wants to keep them but knows the child cannot be successful there and the school doesn't have the means to help them succeed.

I think this is a misconception that many have about private schools, at least I know I did...that they are wealthy with unlimited funds and they just choose to not help students. :( Not True.

And yes, many income levels are accommodated. This varies by school, and varies as to how the school does it. However every school that I have ever looked at offered some type of financial support. I have seen that they want and strive for a diverse population at the school. I have also seen though, they want it to rank highly on a family's financial priority list.

[crl]

I suppose accommodating kids with differences must vary by Waldorf school, just as it does at schools with other educational philosophies. My child ended up at a private school with a much mire welcoming and positive attitude about him. (Complicated, but he was accepted as a private student and I paid tuition, but he was later taken into the contract they had with the public schools for special Ed students.)

My strong impression was that differences were not well accommodated at the Waldorf school I toured and that it was a matter of philosophy that not all children were meant for a Waldorf education--apparently this view is not held by all Waldorf schools? To me that was in contrast to .Montessori (originally conceived for special needs kids) and Reggio, with it's strong emphasis on the competence of every child and its origins/focus on serving the whole community.

For those whose kids go to Waldorf schools, how does the school describe Anthroposophy to the parents? Do they give you much information about it? The school I toured never mentioned it to me, which I thought was interesting as I understand it to guide all the teachers' interactions with students and the curriculum and so on.

[AnnieW625]

My strong impression was that differences were not well accommodated at the Waldorf school I toured and that it was a matter of philosophy that not all children were meant for a Waldorf education--apparently this view is not held by all Waldorf schools? To me that was in contrast to .Montessori (originally conceived for special needs kids) and Reggio, with it's strong emphasis on the competence of every child and its origins/focus on serving the whole community.

This is how I felt when DD1 and I went to the school harvest fair. DD1 was 2/1/2 and was speech delayed. She acted like a normal 2+ yr. old and interacted with the other kids at the craft table but couldn't talk well at all (she'd been in group speech for about a month then and on a good day spoke like a 16 mos. old) and since I had a background in Montessori education (I worked as a sub. in the preschool in my hometown during college) it was quite a different response received for children like her who may not be up to par with all of the kids in the classroom but were welcomed with open arms and worked with to work through their delays or whatever issue (ADD or ADHD is one I can think of because I had personal experience with it) they were having a problem with.

[niccig]

Her parents didn't think she had gotten a very good academic foundation at the Waldorf school and she was behind for most of that year.

Any school that has a different philosophy or teaching pace as the public schools will not be teaching the same curriculum as the public schools. So when a child does move to the public school there will be things they are ahead or behind with.

This is the case with DS's school. They don't push academics in K, they're very upfront about it, but we still have parents complaining that their child isn't reading at a public school K level. It seems to me that some parents want all the other things that a different education philosophy provides PLUS stay at same pacing as the public schools. But they don't always go together. Our K is playbased and you can't have that and be pushing academics.

We know that if we move DS before grade 3, we'll have to give him extra help, especially in writing for him. After grade 3, and it doesn't seem to be an issue.

He's in K and a beginning reader probably by public school standards, but he told me what Pi is and how to measure it, and did a presentation on the human heart and how it works. So, he's getting some other things a little earlier too.

OP, if you do choose a different educational phiolosopy, then you do need to be aware that the curriculum may follow a different pacing to the public schools, and be prepared to deal with that if you do move to those schools.

[AnnieW625]

He's in K and a beginning reader probably by public school standards, but he told me what Pi is and how to measure it, and did a presentation on the human heart and how it works. So, he's getting some other things a little earlier too.

OP, if you do choose a different educational phiolosopy, then you do need to be aware that the curriculum may follow a different pacing to the public schools, and be prepared to deal with that if you do move to those schools.

I wish there were more schools like this here in my area. That's what I loved about working at a Montessori school, the stuff those kids could tell you was amazing, most public school 5 yr. old didn't know the map of the United States or where Brazil was, but those Montessori ones sure did. I am also a believer that basic reading is a skill that is learned at home and not 100% in the classroom. Thank goodness the school my DD1 will go to doesn't have the same reading program as the public schools do.

[egoldber]

Any school that has a different philosophy or teaching pace as the public schools will not be teaching the same curriculum as the public schools. So when a child does move to the public school there will be things they are ahead or behind with. ..... We know that if we move DS before grade 3, we'll have to give him extra help, especially in writing for him.

This is an important point. Most public and many traditional private schools encourage daily writing starting in K. By 3rd and certainly 4th grade, these students are used to writing a large amount of time each day. It is pretty hard IMO for a kid to switch from a non-traditional school to a traditional school in the early grades for this reason. It has nothing to do with educational rigor and is more about the daily practice that those students have received that the other students did not.

And I think that Melanie is totally right that many private schools are simply not equipt to help many students who have non-typical needs.

Also, all schools teach things in different orders, even schools within the same district. so transfering means that a student will always be "behind" in some way.

[crl]

And I think that Melanie is totally right that many private schools are simply not equipt to help many students who have non-typical needs.

way.

I think this is absolutely true. But I also think there is a difference between not being able to accommodate differences because of limited resources and not being able to accommodate differences because it is not consistent with the school's educational philosophy to do so.

My impression was that the Waldorf school I toured believed that not all children were meant for a Waldorf education (I guess the nastier way of saying that, and I think it would be overstating somewhat, would be that some kids aren't good enough for a Waldorf education.) I was left with the impression that it would be sink or swim for my kid and if he did not fit into their way of doing things, he would be out of there.

By contrast, a different private school asked a lot of questions and asked to evaluate ds in advance and gave the vibe that they wanted to make sure they could meet his needs. So more the resource issue than a philosophical issue.

And by even greater contrast, the private school he ended up attending listened to my description and said, your child is welcome here and he will thrive. And he did.

Anyway, this is all fairly far afield from the op's questions I think. So I will try to stop dragging this so far off topic.

Catherine

[egoldber]

Well, the concern I have heard is that some Waldorf schools pathologize non-traditional learners, both delayed and advanced learners. Both can be seen as the child being imbalanced (I'm not using the right words here) in their spirit. So a child who teaches themselves to read before the Waldorf timeframe is not really seen as a positive and in fact could be quite negatively treated by the school.

The other concern I have seen is kids with severe learning disabilities not being diagnosed until later ages because of the delayed reading.

ETA: I don't think all Waldorf schools are like this, but I've heard enough people describe it happening to believe that it is reality at many places.

[daisymommy]

Crl~ It's interesting to hear of so many different experiences people have had within Waldorf schools...I guess that just goes to show all schools out there differ from each other and you never know what you're going to get! :)

The books, people I have spoken to, and teachers in schools I have visited tend towards the feeling of "Waldorf is the best thing for ALL children", and can almost tend towards looking down at other methods of education and parenting.

Also, one of the foundational teachings of Waldorf is that Waldorf education/style is some of the best therapy you can provide for special needs children. Some of the best schools with more teachers on hand actually have what is known as "Resources" teachers who provide extra one-on-one time with each during the school day to help them with their needs and schooling. But most preschools are just your typical 1-2 teachers with a group of kids and no way of really accommodating a child with special needs.

Edited to add: I almost forgot. Someone asked about T.V. and media. True Waldorf parenting/education says no electronic media at all. Not TV or video games. That it is not developmentally healthy for your child's brain and emotional psyche. I think they make some very good points (in books I have read), but we do watch small amounts of "gentle" TV shows, such as Curious George and Little Bear.
Also, the norm is no mass-market characters and toys. But this is supported by more than just Waldorf. Many people are very unhappy with the state of things now, where companies are selling to children, trying to get them sucked into buying everything Disney and characters and the like. Waldorf supports basic open ended play. Princess and Knights in role play, not mass-market Disney princess and Barbie...you know?

One of the things that I appreciated about the layout of Waldorf education is it's methods are taught/designed in such a way that the child really "gets it" on a foundational level--not just a rote level. They understand the "why and how" of math (like the "new" teaching style of math we were discussing earlier), rather than doing this a typical way where kids go through the motions of memorizing facts but having no real understanding or connection to what they are doing. This goes for all subject matter.

I personally don't think there is any one right or wrong school of thought or education style. It's all about what meshes the best with your child's personality and learning style.

[smilequeen]

I would never put my children in a Waldorf school but I know it does work for some kids. Definitely read the pro Waldorf AND anti Waldorf information if you are looking into it. The overall philosophy doesn't sit right with me...others have pointed out the cult like and exclusionary vibe Waldorf gives out. But primarily, I don't agree with their educational philosophy other than that academics are not PUSHED. But not pushing academics is one thing and witholding them based on an idealistic unproven philosophy is quite another. I'm also not a fan of traditional methods that keep kids on an earlier timeline either though. My beliefs fall in line with Montessori though...provide the opportunity and allow kids to learn on their own timeline without pressure.

[Uno-Mom]

I'm sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I needed to say THANKS for all the input. (I haven't been here in a couple days.) You guys all put some thought into your responses and I appreciate it.

At the very least, I have an interesting research project ahead of me. Both about the Waldorf philosophy in general and our town's school in particular.

I have a follow up question, but I think I'll put it in a separate thread.

[JacksMommy]

Pretty interesting thread! We go a "Waldorf-methods" charter school, which is actually a public school. They stay the heck away from anthroposophy, due to the no religion in public schools issue. We love this program for our children and believe that "delayed" academics has been great for them. I've seen a lot of children in traditional schools struggle with learning to read in kindergarten, which is too early for some (not all) kids. While Waldorf starts reading in 2nd grade (and our school makes no bones about the fact that you should plan to keep your child there until 5th grade), they start in kinder by teaching lots of skills that prepare them for academics, including art, knitting (develops small motor skills), concentration, listening skills (stories are taught verbally, and my kids have amazing listening/attention skills as a result!) and love of learning. The 8th graders in our school (no high school) are AMAZING, and so creative. They also test at or near the top of middle schools in Napa. This is absolutely not true in 2nd grade, when they first start star-testing, so you have to commit to the process. The media thing is hard, because some people feel very strongly about no media while others have some. We occasionally watch short half-hour programs on the weekend. I find it freeing not to have to deal with TV during the week.

Like others, I recommend looking at your own program in your town, to see what's happening at your school. I love Montessori, also, but there are some awful Montesorri schools as well as fabulous ones.