UPDATE IN #1--S/O--our friends are FF a 6 month old

[larig]

HURRAY!! I sent a very nice email (telling her I was coming from a place of love) with 2 links (joel's journey & one from the UK with the head size thing in it) and she called me today to tell me that she had a car seat tech come out this morning to install it properly!!! She also thanked me for giving her a kick in the butt! I'm over the moon and she was just great about it.

Thanks to all of you who sent links and suggestions. I am having a great Sunday with this news. :cheerleader1::cheerleader1:

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Okay, I'm seriously disturbed to learn that our friends (who we at one point considered naming as guardians for DS) as soon as they got their new convertible seat began forward facing their son, who is 20 pounds and turned 6 months old just 2 days ago. (gosh, and they've had that seat for almost a month!) Even more disturbing is that the woman of the couple insisted to me today that she had researched it AND that her DOCTOR OKAYED IT!!!

So, I'm upset because she obviously lied to me, I mean what doc would recommend that?! And, I'm upset because I care about her son, and she'd being an idiot. Seriously.

I just got off the phone with her, and I'm sweating and shaking I'm so upset. Even today after the new regulations, etc. she still thinks that her son is not "fragile" and that somehow these guidelines don't pertain to them. She just kept trying to rationalize her actions--"well, we don't drive very much, etc."

I don't know how I can face them. I'm not sure how to navigate this problem socially and emotionally. I think it may have caused a serious rift in our friendship, because I just don't like to hang out with people I can't respect, and I just can't respect you if you're going to ignore safety warnings about your kid like this. HELP!?

here's our current law. (notice AND not OR in the language).

Babies must ride in rear--facing infant seats until they are a year old and weigh 20 pounds.

Anyway, I'm off to go find actually legitimate sources for her to try to change her mind, but I don't hold out much hope. She seems to know better than I, and always says "I asked my Doc" when she thinks that she is losing the argument. I just don't know what to do, and I'm worried sick.

[cntrymoon2]

I'd be livid, too. Although, I don't know the proper way to handle it. I'll be watching this thread for advice from others.

In the meantime, here is a recent article from a reputable source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/health/policy/22carseat.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[Green_Tea]

I am not sure that there is anything that you CAN do about it, though I might ask her how she plans to handle the situation if she were to be pulled over by a cop or stopped at a car seat check (which has happened to me). If that's the law in your state, she would face the consequences if she were in an accident with her baby in the car - even if she didn't CAUSE the accident, and even if the baby was unharmed. The long arm of the law doesn't give a rat's patootie that her pediatrician said it's OK (which I find impossible to believe.)

So frustrating :hug:.

[rin]

Oh, this is tough. No real advice, but did just want to say that it's possible she's not lying about asking her doctor. My pediatrician actually told me that it would be fine for my DH to take our 9-month old out in a bike trailer, so some doctors/pediatricians aren't necessarily up-to-date on safety recommendations. :thumbsdown:

Would it be worth it to send her a carefully composed email with links to the new AAP/NHTSA recommendations, and maybe a Youtube video or two of FF vs. RF crash test dummies?

[AnnieW625]

Our neighbor did this too last year because the convertible seat wouldn't fit in the back of the Toyota Echo her older 16 yr. old daughter drove around. The baby was 20+lbs, but still it broke my heart. Thankfully they moved not too long after that and the baby is now over a year. Can you call the cops and have them follow your friends, and give them a ticket? Sounds mean and rediculous but in California the CHP have stopped two people I know to make sure that their seats are installed correctly. One was for a 3 yr. old in a low back booster seat, and the other was just a random stop with a friend who had a infant in a convertible seat.

I would

[khm]

Doctors are car seat experts. Some have knowledge that is as old as their own children. So, that may mean they are giving out info from decades ago.

I doubt there's anything you can do. Sorry.

Though, the phrase "internal decapitation" is rather horrifying.... And, yes, I actually know a man whose son was killed in a car accident in the 90s and that is where I first heard the phrase. Awful, awful stuff.

[larig]

Doctors are car seat experts. Some have knowledge that is as old as their own children. So, that may mean they are giving out info from decades ago.

I doubt there's anything you can do. Sorry.

Though, the phrase "internal decapitation" is rather horrifying.... And, yes, I actually know a man whose son was killed in a car accident in the 90s and that is where I first heard the phrase. Awful, awful stuff.

I actually told her that today on the phone.

This is not the first parenting thing we've seen them do that has freaked out DH and me. Needless to day, we've already planned on other guardians.

[arivecchi]

I honestly don't think there is anything you can do. She is on the defensive and will not change her mind and therefore prove you right. I would just distance myself from them for a while and hope they change their minds since you have given them the pertinent information.

This is why the government has to do recalls and oftentimes legislate what should be common sense.

[HIU8]

I don't think there is anything you can do. For your own sanity, you may have to limit your contact with them though. That is what I did when a friend commented how I treat my kids like babies b/c they are RF (she says this as her son gets into his carseat that he had alredy outgrown, in a down coat in the winter and she could not buckle him so she just placed the harness over his shoulders and drove off (he was 3 and HUGE and in a MA). We rarely saw them and they have since moved out of the country.

[mom2binsd]

Honestly the only words that might get her attention are "internal decapitation" and for a FF 6 month old in a crash it's a big concern, babies at 6 months have HUGE heads compared to the rest of their bodies.

I would have a hard time letting it go, but that's something you and your DH need to decide.

[elektra]

FF at 6 mo is really just clueless behavior by a parent.

[larig]

Oh, I'm just so glad that I have this board of SANE parents to whom I can come to seek advice and vent about my crazy friends!!

[crispychicky]

I'm not sure if you really want to do this, but it sounds like your relationship may have a permanent fracture, so I'll throw it out there anyway....You could call the cops on her (anonymously). She'll probably figure out it was you, but she may actually listen to the police and turn the car seat around.

[MamaSnoo]

I honestly don't think there is anything you can do. She is on the defensive and will not change her mind and therefore prove you right. I would just distance myself from them for a while and hope they change their minds since you have given them the pertinent information.

This is why the government has to do recalls and oftentimes legislate what should be common sense.

:yeahthat: Unfortunately, not much you can do.

[larig]

I don't think there is anything you can do. For your own sanity, you may have to limit your contact with them though. That is what I did when a friend commented how I treat my kids like babies b/c they are RF (she says this as her son gets into his carseat that he had alredy outgrown, in a down coat in the winter and she could not buckle him so she just placed the harness over his shoulders and drove off (he was 3 and HUGE and in a MA). We rarely saw them and they have since moved out of the country.

DH and I just collectively said Oh, MY GOSH! to that story. Maybe your friends have cousins in my town?

I think it is partly her age. (ETA: this sounds bad--I mean our age difference) She is much younger than I am (over 10 years), but her DH played drums in a band with DH and me for many years. They are very sweet people, but I just don't get this. ETA: I should explain the age thing--I didn't finish my thought--I think that she might be overly defensive because she is younger than I am and perhaps thinks I am treating her as a child--KWIM.

[mommylamb]

Send her one of those videos showing a car crash. I don't know how anyone can ignore those things.

That's horrifying.

[MontrealMum]

I had a similar confrontation with a friend over the same issue, although her DC was 9 months. Doesn't matter, it was still illegal (never mind unsafe :( ) She got very defensive and nasty, but a few days later she contacted me and said she'd read the manual of her carseat and that in fact it *could* RF for longer, so she turned her kid back around. So your friend may come around, who can say?

Of course in my friend's case it might not have mattered due to the super loose straps and the chest clip being down around the navel area. The kicker in that situation was that she wouldn't believe me about the law because she works for her province's roads commission...so she MUST know everything about it. Funny how I was able to read and interpret 1 and 20, and she wasn't :D

With my particular friend I have found that it's just best to distance myself from her. Too many differences that come down to safety, not just parenting styles.

[fortato]

I'm not sure if you really want to do this, but it sounds like your relationship may have a permanent fracture, so I'll throw it out there anyway....You could call the cops on her (anonymously). She'll probably figure out it was you, but she may actually listen to the police and turn the car seat around.

Absolutely call the police. I've had to do it, and it sucks, but it sure beats finding out later that something happened.....

[Globetrotter]

THIS is why the laws are important. Some people only do things to follow the law, but in this case even that doesn't help!

All you can do is try. I always tell people about the crash test dummy videos - they must be around somewhere on the internet..

[ohsara430]

That stinks that they are making such a poor decision but honestly I don't think it does anyone any good to get so upset about it. I think instead of distancing yourself you should remain respectful of them while educating them. It sounds like your conversation with her got emotionally charged and how could it not, you're basically telling her that something she has done could cause serious harm or death to her child, of course she got defensive. If it were me I would put together an email with links to the AAP and NTSB recommendations, the youtube videos, your state law, and even her carseat manual (most are online). You can tell her that you just wanted to provide links to reputable sources for her to look at and that you hope she will research the issue. If she chooses to ignore the law and recommendations then you have done what you can. Honestly, if I distanced myself from everyone who made parenting decisions I disagree with (even very strongly at times) or who break laws putting their safety or ours at risk then I would have no friends.

[blondflava]

Some people will ignore, no matter how many warnings and videos they'll see... They have that wishful thinking that the bad stuff won't happen to them, it always happens to someone else.. The consequences can be heart-breaking :(

[larig]

Thanks all for giving me some things to think about. I usually am a pretty low-key easy-breezy friend. I don't meddle and keep to myself about things that I disagree with parenting-wise. This was just so frustrating to have come up on the VERY day that those new guidelines are being talked about. Talk about irony.

Hopefully she'll come around. I grabbed lots of good links from other threads, including the one today. If anyone has any others that are good for cases like this, link away!

Thanks again for the support and advice, everyone. I appreciate it!

ETA: and I'm going to try to email them to her partner--maybe he'll be more open-minded.

[KrisM]

Did you try sending her the Joel's Journey link? Maybe reading a story about a real kid would help.
http://www.joelsjourney.org/

[larig]

Did you try sending her the Joel's Journey link? Maybe reading a story about a real kid would help.
http://www.joelsjourney.org/

No, but thanks for the reminder. I'm still compiling my list of links!

[Globetrotter]

This one is short and sweet, so they might take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKIeExpDLDA&feature=related

[kijip]

Call the non- emergency line here. Maybe an officer would make a drive by visit. I don't think you should argue with her about it anymore. That is utterly crazy and I see why it bugs you.

Iirc, WA law actually says the seat must be used according to manufacturer directions rather than a set age. That is a great thing because it does not create the impression that it is illegal to extended rf or extended harness.

[larig]

I just wanted to clear up something from an earlier post of mine. I did not mean to say that she is young, therefore she doesn't listen about car seats. I meant, I think that she might be overly defensive because she is much younger than I am, and perhaps thinks I am treating her as a child.

I hope I did not offend anyone.

[liamsmom]

That stinks that they are making such a poor decision but honestly I don't think it does anyone any good to get so upset about it. I think instead of distancing yourself you should remain respectful of them while educating them. It sounds like your conversation with her got emotionally charged and how could it not, you're basically telling her that something she has done could cause serious harm or death to her child, of course she got defensive. If it were me I would put together an email with links to the AAP and NTSB recommendations, the youtube videos, your state law, and even her carseat manual (most are online). You can tell her that you just wanted to provide links to reputable sources for her to look at and that you hope she will research the issue. If she chooses to ignore the law and recommendations then you have done what you can. Honestly, if I distanced myself from everyone who made parenting decisions I disagree with (even very strongly at times) or who break laws putting their safety or ours at risk then I would have no friends.

:yeahthat:


I just wanted to clear up something from an earlier post of mine. I did not mean to say that she is young, therefore she doesn't listen about car seats. I meant, I think that she might be overly defensive because she is much younger than I am, and perhaps thinks I am treating her as a child.

I hope I did not offend anyone.

I certainly wasn't offended, but I'm not young. ;) I don't blame you for getting upset, but I think you might be right that you're friend may feel that you're judging her and therefore get defensive. Throw in the age factor, and things get even more complicated.

While I wouldn't hesitate to look for a different guardian--because you have to be concerned for the safety of your own children--I wouldn't write her off as a friend either.

Maybe I'm optimistic, but since the AAP changed their recommendation today, it's entirely possible that the next time larig's friend takes her DC to the pediatrician, he's going to recommend RF. And then she might need a friend to help her out.

[wimama]

This one is short and sweet, so they might take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKIeExpDLDA&feature=related

Well, if I was willing to risk the friendship. I would definately send her some links. Word it nicely. These videos, articles and websites really helped make up my mind to keep my DS rearfacing. I just want you to have the benefit of the same info. To me the crash test dummy videos are very convincing both the one listed above and the one comparing five point harnesses to boosters were pretty moving for me to watch.

Or, as previous posters suggested call the police on her.

[SpaceGal]

I usually stay out of these things. It upsets me A LOT but I've learned to just be the "stickler" but I won't say anything to those that do stupid things IMHO. My SIL is a doctor and so is her husband, she turned her son before he was 1 yo. Her other son was out of a boost really early...at 3-4 years of age. She told me she she's a safe driver (so not the case because everyone is afraid to drive with her)...and doesn't want to lug a carseat and booster around when she comes up north for visits. I know she's LOADED...but lazy...even her MIL told me she thinks it's crazy but since my SIL insists she doesn't need it she looks the other way, uneasy for her since they are her grandsons but she doesn't want to overstep that boundary. Some people just regard it as not their fault and figure nothing bad with happen to them...what can you do...it's ingrained...happy go lucky so to speak.

DH's family and my friends know I am a stickler about car seats...not just the regulations...but really when a car accident happens you can't save your kids. You have to do what you can with the seat you have and use it wisely. Most of our family thinks I'm a freak but whatever...I don't care because I know I want my kids safe.

I just sorta "ignore" and distance myself on the subject. It sucks to be the stickler...but oh well...distance...that's what I do.

[TxCat]

When I first saw the title of this post, I thought FF meant "formula feeding" and I thought, "Wow, this is kind of a harsh thread!" Never mind...;)

[larig]

bump for update

[arivecchi]

hurray!

[BayGirl2]

HURRAY!! I sent a very nice email (telling her I was coming from a place of love) with 2 links (joel's journey & one from the UK with the head size thing in it) and she called me today to tell me that she had a car seat tech come out this morning to install it properly!!! She also thanked me for giving her a kick in the butt! I'm over the moon and she was just great about it.

Thanks to all of you who sent links and suggestions. I am having a great Sunday with this news. :cheerleader1::cheerleader1:

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That's great news. Good job at being rational yet persuasive.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

that is awesome!! thanx for updating!! :bighand:

[TwinFoxes]

Wow, that's great. I think this is the first time I've read of someone changing their ways on car seats. Good for you, and her for admitting she was wrong.

[Globetrotter]

:bighand:Kudos to you for handling this well and to your friend for taking it well!!

[larig]

I'm totally impressed with her attitude about the whole thing. I'm glad I butt in.

[MamaMolly]

Oh yay! I'd seriously consider taking them out for a coffee or dessert somewhere fun as a way to share the love.

FAB UPDATE!!

[DietCokeLover]

That's wonderful that she responded so positively. I bet you and she will sleep better tonight.

[blue]

That's wonderful that she responded so positively. I bet you and she will sleep better tonight.

:yeahthat:........... and thanks for the great update OP!