Need some perspective with daycare situation- update post 16, I am really upset

[Krisrich]

This is likely going to be loooong. Thanks to anyone who bears with me....

DD1 is 2 years and 4 months. She has been in the toddler room at her daycare since about 17 months. It was a bit of a hard transition to the toddler room initially, but nothing that I thought was out of the range of normal. DD1 is extrememely sensitive- to noise, to being re-directed, to changes in routine. The head teacher in her room is big and loud and not very "cuddly." I had always had a good relationship with her and thought that it was, in some ways, good for DD1 to forge a relationship with someone outside of her comfort zone. DH does the dropoff in the mornings and, as I understand it, DD1 still has had some initial tears in the mornings on most days, but only briefly.

Well, for the past month or so, as DD1 has become more verbal, we have been hearing more negative things. I don't like "teacher's name." She's not nice. I don't want to go to school. "Teacher's name" yells at me. She has become more difficult to transition in the mornings. About 2 weeks ago, there was a party at the daycare on a Saturday morning. We went and when DD1 saw the teacher she burst into tears. Of course, the facility was also loud and crowded and I'm sure that was also throwing her off. But, I mentioned to my DH that we should set up a meeting with the teacher. DH kind of blew me off. Then, the following Monday, DD1 was crying at dropoff and DH got the sense that teacher was exasperated by a "look" she gave to another teacher. We set up a meeting.

At the meeting, the teacher was reasonable. She said DD1 is doing great but doesn't respond well to her when she needs to redirect her. She cries. She said DD1 responds better to other teachers re-directing her. We talked about other ways to approach DD1. The teacher seemed receptive. She admitted that she might be too loud for DD1. I left feeling ok, not great, but ok.

A few days went by. On Monday, DD1 spent the day in the other toddler room because the associate teacher in her classroom had the day off. Her next day at school was yesterday. The morning at home was very rough. She said she didn't want to go to school. She said she wanted to be in the other teacher's class. She had a temper tantrum in the driveway. That has only happened one other time. I was exasperated and called to speak to the director, but she wasn't there at that time. I spoke with the assistant director. I explained that we had already met with DD1's teacher. I said I just wasn't sure of the appropriate thing to do. I discussed if it was an option to move DD1 into the other classroom. I admitted I didn't know if this was just a 2 year old stage or if there is a real problem. I said that I had nothing against DD's teacher but that maybe there is a personality conflict between her and DD. I just needed some help.

The assistant director was very nice. She met my DD at the door when she arrived with DH. She spent some alone time with her. She called me later to explain that she then asked DD1 which classroom she wanted to go to. DD1 chose her usual classroom. Apparently, she went in happily and talkative and had a great day. The assistant director said she knows that the teacher runs "a tight ship" and that DD1 might just need some more sensitive cuddle time. She said she was happy to help her transition in the AMs. I felt better.

I called later in the afternoon to speak to her teacher to make sure there were no hurt feelings. She said to me that she had had such a rough week that after 22 years she felt like quitting. What the @#$#@? I said I was so sorry and I hoped it had nothing to do with the situation with DD1. She blew me off and basically said "it's all good."

This bothered me all night. I decided to call again to speak to the teacher this afternoon. I said that I was concerned about her after our conversation yesterday. And, she said, "oh I was just feeling frustrated with a lot of things. It has nothing to do with what's going on in the classroom or with the kids. I wish there were cameras in the classroom so you could see how well DD1 is doing." Then she just passed the phone to another teacher (a float) so she could tell me how great DD1 is doing.

I feel uncomfortable and upset. These recent conversations have weirded me out. I am not sure what to do now.

[wellyes]

The comment itself about having a rough week wouldn't bother me. But I do think you should trust your spidey sense. If you feel something is off, and your DD frequently and consistently expresses unhappiness - if it were me, i'd be looking for a new place for her. It might make a world of difference.

That doesn't mean you should be worried about the current place. It just sounds like it is not a good fit.

[janine]

Are you weirded out by this teacher (ie worried by her comments) or generally weirded out by the facility?

I think you did the right thing by moving classes - yoru DD is still so young, she should be in an environment she enjoys, not a "tight ship" in my opinion. I would have requested a different classroom or pulled her out. I would also not get too chummy with the original teacher, I think you've done more than enough in terms of reaching out to her. I do not have a DC in daycare though so not sure if this is how it's supposed to be done - ie keep all the teachers happy so your DC is treated lovingly.

Good luck, it's a tough thing to deal with!

[Myira]

he said to me that she had had such a rough week that after 22 years she felt like quitting. oh I was just feeling frustrated with a lot of things. It has nothing to do with what's going on in the classroom or with the kids.

All of the above statements would bother me. They come across as very unprofessional. Being with toddlers is not going to be easy, we all know that, but lady thats the very nature of your job. I would question the skills and expertise of this teacher in dealing with toddlers and children. Also, your DDs strong reaction to being dropped off and particularly this teacher's presence is alarming to me.

I would likely want to start looking at a change of either classroom or daycare like mentioned by PP.

[Krisrich]

Thanks for the supplies so far. (Looks like naptime is ending so I probably won't be back till later.)

Janine, you bring up a good point. I am feeling weirded out by the teacher, not by the facility itself which I actually like quite a bit. I haven't yet changed rooms for my daughter, just raised it as a possiblity. I'm not sure if I should be exploring an entirely new facility. DD1 will, at the very least, age out of her cuurent classroom in the fall. Of course, DD2 will also be moving from the infant room to the toddler room but I could always request the other toddler teacher...

[LMPC]

That doesn't mean you should be worried about the current place. It just sounds like it is not a good fit.

I agree. It sounds like the teacher is just not able to meet your DD where she is. My DD attends a weekly MDO, and I know that if her teachers weren't all warm and fuzzy that she would not like it -- and I can imagine act out like your lil' one did. Some kids are just a little more sensitive and need a little more warm/fuzzy during the day. It's nothing against the teacher or your DD -- just not a great fit. And the teacher is probably right...your DD probably does have a great time during the day. But I can imagine that one incident (meaning a loud voice redirecting her) could cloud that KWIM?

[wendibird22]

Well, as someone who is also going through daycare issues, I can relate to your frustration, confusion, and concern. I wouldn't necessarily be concerned by the teachers comments...lord knows I've had a bad week at work. But the daily uneasiness of your DD, the crying at drop off, etc that hasn't improved with time would concern me.

Is there anyway that you and/or your DH can pop in for a few spot visits over the next week? Maybe a chance to observe the teacher and your DD in the room at times other than drop off and pick up would help you to determine the best next step(s). Another thought would be could you ask the director if your DD could visit the other toddler room for an entire week. Then you could observe her attitude and demeanor and see if the change in teachers had a positive impact.

[TwinFoxes]

The comment itself about having a rough week wouldn't bother me. But I do think you should trust your spidey sense. If you feel something is off, and your DD frequently and consistently expresses unhappiness - if it were me, i'd be looking for a new place for her. It might make a world of difference.

That doesn't mean you should be worried about the current place. It just sounds like it is not a good fit.

I agree with this. The comment wasn't very professional, but teachers are people too, it wasn't a major blabbermouth incident IMHO. But it seems like your DD has been unhappy for quite awhile now. Moving her might not be a bad idea.

[deborah_r]

I have been dealing with my daycare for about 5.5 years now (DS1 started when he was 2 years old, DS2 started at 3 months old) and I have never, not once, had any teacher vent to me about how frustrated they were with anything. Not once. I am sure they have their frustrations, but they do not vent them to me. That is very unprofessional, IMO.

I have noticed in each classroom at our daycare there is the lead teacher who keeps things running smoothly (and maybe isn't super warm & fuzzy) and then the "nurturer". My boys both attached to the teacher in each classroom that was the nurturer. The lead teachers have more of a "teacher" mentality, and the assistants more of a caregiver.

Most importantly, and I did not realize this when I was scouting daycares early on, you need a *great* director. The director sets the tone for everyone. I have complete and total faith in our director, and feel so fortunate to have found this children's center.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

When my older son was 2, he transitioned into the 2 year old room at daycare and it was a disaster. He cried everyday in the morning for a month. We left and everything was so much better for all of us. We had been at that daycare since he started daycare at 7 months, so we felt loyalty, but that change just didn't work for my son. Your daughter actually sounds a lot like how my son was - sensitive, didn't like change, etc. I feel like a month is a long time to go without adjusting well. I would look elsewhere or at the very least be dropping in to see if she was indeed happy. My husband (who would do the drop off) would wait in the parking lot and he could see that our son was still crying for a good while. It was just so terrible.

We switched to a home daycare and he got loving care from a stable primary caregive until he went to Kindergarten almost 3 years later. That might not be an option for you, but what a blessing it was to us! We loved Miss Karen. :)

[twowhat?]

Our girls are close to yours in age. If any of what you described happened on a daily basis (the crying, not wanting to go to school, saying she doesn't like the teacher and that the teacher yells at her), I would be concerned as well. I don't think it's anything to blow off - I would work with the director until you reach a resolution that YOU feel comfortable with.

FWIW DD2 cries at drop-off (the teacher says it lasts for 30 seconds maybe), but when I talk to her later at home, it is clear that she loves her teacher, tells me she had a good day, all the fun things they did, etc. She willingly gets ready for school in the mornings and is upset if she is sick and cannot go. If she told me she didn't like her teacher (again, on a daily basis), that would totally scream red flag to me that the teacher is not a good fit.

[BayGirl2]

FWIW, our DS is 22 months and was supposed to move to the 2's room last Friday. He's been spending early mornings in there and visiting for months, and loved to play in there because they have trains, a kitchen, etc and he seemed to like the teachers. We were excited for the move and very supportive. He has been at this same daycare since he was 5 months old with no separation anxiety. In fact when DH dropped him off he would go play and barely notice him leaving. We thought the transition would be smooth, and he's really intellectually ready for the bigger room, and bored in the younger room.

Since the move he has cried every day at drop off, when parents start picking up, and every time a teacher from his old room walks by. He'll get into the activities but as soon as he's reminded of the change he breaks into tears. Yesterday we arrived early and were able to watch him play outside for a while. He actually was fine, a little alone for a bit, but found a friend and engaged, and no crying. But again drop off was even worse this morning. So definitely observe if you can, ideally without DD or teacher seeing you.

At first I thought he was nervous, but after some reflection and discussion with the Director I think there is a lot of resistance to having a more defined routine and rules. Not that they are strict, its play based care, but in the younger rooms its free-play all day, in the older room there is a bit more structured schedule. He's also started pushing a lot of limits at home, challenging with behaviors he had no problem controlling 2 weeks ago. So in that sense I think its somewhat of an age thing. You DD is a little older, but this same kind of 2 year old stuff happens for a while. We're going to keep trying because we do like the daycare center and feel he's ready to move up, and feel we'd hit the same challenge if we wait another month or two. But we're trying to give him extra attention at home and staying very in sync with the teachers.

I agree with PP that in most daycare rooms we've been in there does seem to be a curriculum focused teacher and others that are more cuddly. The Director really makes a difference and is the one I tend to go to for facilitating these kind of issues. I also wouldn't be put off by the teacher's venting on the phone. Our teachers don't do that regularly, and I may get a little annoyed to hear it, but they are human and its no different than me venting with my job on a bad day. Sometimes things slip out that aren't 100% professional but aren't damaging or hurtful.

[ha98ed14]

My feeling after reading your post is that this teacher is a "rough around the edges" personality and that maybe there are some class differences going on, BUT I do think she sounds like a reasonable person who does care about doing her job well and wants your DD to have a good experience. I'm saying this based on the fact that she was receptive to your concerns and reasonable in the meeting, and because her boss (the asst director) has enough confidence in her to keep her as a (lead?)teacher in that room. Presumably she's been there awhile if the asst director knows her "tight ship" style. I don't think they would have kept her if she wasn't a conscientious teacher and person.

I am picking up on what I think is a class difference in part because of her "It's all good!" comment. That is a phrase that I don't think we would expect in professional settings. Secondly, I percieve a class difference because she said she was frustrated and felt like quitting. Again, this was something that as a provider of XYZ, you would not say this to your "client" (unless they were a good personal friend). These comments crossed the professional distance that is usually kept between people in this kind of relationship. I would not expect to hear about someone's unhappiness in their job (or other parts of their life) unless they were my friend. But while I think she lives by a different set of cultural norms, it is possible she is a pretty good teacher.

My gut tells me that your persistence in talking to her (calling to speak to her after the meeting and then calling again after that) is making her uncomfortable. My impression is that you are someone who likes to be reassured, and she is not a reassuring type, as we can see because she doesn't reassure your child when redirecting her. She sounds very blunt, but that doesn't mean she doesn't care. It may mean tho that her personality may not work for your or your child. THAT, IMO, is a very valid reason to change classrooms or daycare providers (if it comes to that).

I think you may just be cut from different cloth. She is burlap and you are silk and you just rub each other the wrong way.

[Krisrich]

First, thanks to EVERYONE who has taken the time to read and respond. It is really helpful to me.



And the teacher is probably right...your DD probably does have a great time during the day. But I can imagine that one incident (meaning a loud voice redirecting her) could cloud that KWIM?
I think this is so true. I can be having a wonderful day but if one person says something to upset me it really has an effect and it takes me a while to move on. I know who DD1 takes after...


Is there anyway that you and/or your DH can pop in for a few spot visits over the next week? Maybe a chance to observe the teacher and your DD in the room at times other than drop off and pick up would help you to determine the best next step(s). Another thought would be could you ask the director if your DD could visit the other toddler room for an entire week. Then you could observe her attitude and demeanor and see if the change in teachers had a positive impact. Unfortunately, I work too far away from the center to be able to drop in. I suppose DH could, but it would be nearly impossible for him to do it without DD1 seeing him, unless maybe the kids were outside. So that would have to be planned with the teacher...


We had been at that daycare since he started daycare at 7 months, so we felt loyalty, but that change just didn't work for my son. Yes, I feel a lot of loyalty to the daycare. We loved the infant room and DD2 is in that room now. Herein lies a major problem with switching facilities. There are a lot more options for kids who are already 2. DD2 won't be 2 until January. If I switch DD1 now, DD2 would stay in the infant room. But, at around 18 months, she will need to switch to the toddler room. So, even if another facility agrees to take her a couple of months early, she will still be in the toddler room for at least 4 months. I could request her to be in the other classroom but it will be very awkward. And she will still have some contact with the teacher with whom we are having issues.

[Krisrich]

My feeling after reading your post is that this teacher is a "rough around the edges" personality and that maybe there are some class differences going on, BUT I do think she sounds like a reasonable person who does care about doing her job well and wants your DD to have a good experience. I'm saying this based on the fact that she was receptive to your concerns and reasonable in the meeting, and because her boss (the asst director) has enough confidence in her to keep her as a (lead?)teacher in that room. Presumably she's been there awhile if the asst director knows her "tight ship" style. I don't think they would have kept her if she wasn't a conscientious teacher and person.

I am picking up on what I think is a class difference in part because of her "It's all good!" comment. That is a phrase that I don't think we would expect in professional settings. Secondly, I percieve a class difference because she said she was frustrated and felt like quitting. Again, this was something that as a provider of XYZ, you would not say this to your "client" (unless they were a good personal friend). These comments crossed the professional distance that is usually kept between people in this kind of relationship. I would not expect to hear about someone's unhappiness in their job (or other parts of their life) unless they were my friend. But while I think she lives by a different set of cultural norms, it is possible she is a pretty good teacher.

My gut tells me that your persistence in talking to her (calling to speak to her after the meeting and then calling again after that) is making her uncomfortable. My impression is that you are someone who likes to be reassured, and she is not a reassuring type, as we can see because she doesn't reassure your child when redirecting her. She sounds very blunt, but that doesn't mean she doesn't care. It may mean tho that her personality may not work for your or your child. THAT, IMO, is a very valid reason to change classrooms or daycare providers (if it comes to that).

I think you may just be cut from different cloth. She is burlap and you are silk and you just rub each other the wrong way.

Wow, I think you make a lot of insightful points here. It makes me feel better because part of me is really feeling guilty for not considering moving DD1 earlier. But, you are right, in that her teacher is not necessarily a BAD teacher. I do feel that she may be too abrupt for my sensitive toddler and her sensitive Mommy. We do both need to be reassured and she is not reassuring. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Krisrich]

Well, the teacher was fired yesterday. I actually was researching other schools and visited one last week, although I wasn't impressed. I feel like a terrible mother and can't stop crying whenever I think about this. I am copying the email I just sent to the center director, with just a few changes to protect privacy. I am not sure what I am going to do now.

Director,

I know that you have spoken with both DH and me at length about the recent developments with XXXX. I sincerely appreciate your time and your honesty. I also appreciate that you recognized that XXXX was no longer an asset to the center and that you moved to improve the situation, rather than be content with the status quo. You had said on Monday that you would be interested in my feedback after Wednesday. After speaking with you and processing the developments more, I feel the need to share with you now how I feel about this situation.

My understanding is that XXXX was let go, not only because she was felt to be "burning out" with the care of the children, but also because of poor interpersonal skills with other members of the staff. My concern, as you can imagine, stems from the fact that someone who was "burnt out" was caring for my child for the past ten months. When we dropped DD off at daycare, we trusted that she was in the best possible situation for her. Not an ok, adequate or fine situation, but the very best possible situation. I am saddened to learn that her teacher was, in fact, not a good fit. I know that her care and discipline did not reach the point of totally unacceptable, but I also know that it was, at the very least, inappropriate in tone and lacking in patience.

Everyone at the center knows that DD is an extremely sensitive child. Looking back, she had trouble transitioning to the toddler room. DH and I considered asking for DD to be moved to another room knowing then that XXXX was louder than DD was used to. But, we trusted that XXXX had been a valued and respected teacher for thirteen years. We told ourselves that it would be good for DD to forge a caring relationship with someone outside of her comfort zone. We certainly never considered at that time that XXXX's behavior with the children could ever reach the level of inappropriate. Knowing now that XXXX's deficiencies did not just arise in the past couple of months, but have instead been going on for quite a while, I feel so guilty that I did not trust my own instincts and ask that DD be moved ten months ago. I also feel let down by the center for not looking out more for my child.

I understand that DD's biggest difficulty was with transitioning in the mornings. But, that transition reflected how she felt about her whole day at the center. As DD became more verbal, she began to tell us more about how she felt about XXXX. After spending the day in different teacher's classroom, she spontaneously told us that she wanted to be in that classroom. Others must have observed that she was happier in that classroom, that perhaps her behavior was better. Others must have observed that DD did not have a strong, caring bond with XXXX. You even said so in our meeting last night. Yet, for ten months, XXXX was DD's primary caregiver. DH and I began to act on our concerns in the past couple of months, but we were too slow.

I have an acute understanding of how important the years from 0-3 are in a child's lifelong well-being. I question now whether DD's poor reaction to re-direction is only caused by her own her innate sensitivity, or whether impatience and inappropriate tone have made her scared of "getting in trouble.'" As another example, a few months back, we were having great success with potty-training at home. When I mentioned it to XXXX and she had DD try at school, she suddenly refused to use the potty. XXXX mentioned that there were tears and that she had backed off. As you know, there should have never been tears!

I am angry at myself for not trusting my instincts ten months ago. I am worried about the effect this situation has had on DD. I am greatly disappointed in XXXX Daycare. I had believed that everyone was looking out for the very best interests of my daughter. When I first learned that XXXX was being let go, I assumed that since she had been at the center for thirteen years, that this was because of a marked change in her behavior in the last couple of months only. I understand now that this had been going on for far too long. While I understand that the process of letting someone go can never be quick or easy, I do think that my child should have been more protected.

Sincerely,
Me

[Canna]

I would try not to be too hard on yourself, and on the daycare center. It sounds like they responded appropriately to your concerns, even to the point of firing a long time teacher who, as far as your know, hasn't crossed any huge lines but just doesn't seem to have the patience and finesse to work well with really young children. The fact that they fired her sounds like a good sign, not a bad one, about the center.

I know we'd like everybody in our kids lives to be perfect, but in reality they're not - kids have less-than-ideal grandparents, teachers, coaches, and even parents! Kids are really resilient. I'm sorry your DD had a teacher that wasn't a good emotional fit for her, but I wouldn't beat yourself up about it or worry about it causing long-term distress to her.

ETA: I think it's entirely possible that this person used to be a better teacher but her skills have slipped lately. As I'm sure you know as a parent, caring for young kids takes sooo much energy, focus, patience, etc. As people age, I think some people find it a lot more challenging and stressful. And outside life events (health issues, depression, just being stressed out by life) can also make it harder to have the emotional reserves one needs to work well with young children.

[hillview]

Krisrich -- huge hugs that you are feel so upset about this and I can totally understand the issue. I do think the day care did the right thing and while I understand you feeling bad about how it played out it sounds like they did all the right things. FWIW, in my DS1's first year of preschool they fired a teacher mid year -- my DS was also having a horrible time transitioning to school and didn't like this teacher. I also felt bad that I had not pulled him out or had him moved but in hindsight, it worked out ok and no perm damage or anything close. Kids bounce back and it doesn't sound like you DD was neglected or treated poorly just that the teacher needed to move out and on.

HUGS!
/hillary

[twowhat?]

It'll work out in the end!! My DD2 (also VERY sensitive) had a rough transition to the 2-3yo room, during which the teacher wouldn't allow her to have her lovey (her blanket) at drop-off, and would peel her blanket off of her before she woke up from her nap in hopes that she would forget it was there (yeah, right). We talked to the director about all this, in addition to the fact that this teacher was often late (leaving the assistant with sometimes 10-12 kids before she got there in the morning). A few weeks later the teacher "resigned". Once a replacement teacher was in place, they did a great job of fixing all the "damage" done to my DD when in transition (including letting her hold her blanket at drop-off). She is now happy and well-adjusted and I am sure your DD will be too.

You did all the right things. You kept the director in the loop. Your DD will be fine, and there is really no one to blame!

[Krisrich]

Thanks for the support.

Actually, I never even had a conversation with the director. I first met with the teacher. Then, when I called to speak to the director a few days later, she wasn't in and I spoke with the assistant director. I think that the situation with my DD played only a very small role in the decision to let the teacher go.

I should have been more proactive.

[ehf]

I bet your calls and concerns had a lot to do with letting the teacher go. If parent calls happen, schools are going to check out the situation.

It sounds like the school made a very difficult but necessary decision. I would consider sending a follow up email--yours seems to focus on how mad you are that it took 10 months to fire a teacher that wasn't a great fit for your child. I think I missed some earlier stuff because I didn't see anything dangerous or egregious, just not a very pleasant personality. That teacher is gone! I'm sure the school tried to investigate, then tried to help the teacher fix the problem, then looked for a replacement with some warning to the teacher so she wasn't blind-sided by a firing.

I would try to be more positive and ask if you can meet to talk about what you can do to help your child rebound from the experience.

This could end up being a positive experience to help your child learn resiliency--the unpleasant situation is over, she can move on, and she'll learn some coping skills. The school will likely be very eager to help you and your child process.

Definitely don't beat yourself up. It sounds like you were very appropriate and proactive. The results speak for themselves.

[MomToOne]

I can understand why you would feel terrible and be beating yourself up - what a tough spot you are in. You asked for perspective though and here's something I see:


but also because of poor interpersonal skills with other members of the staff.


That part sounds like there was some drama going on with another adult in the staff - possibly a superior? I wouldn't assume that she was fired over anything to do with your daughter. Also the stuff she told you over the phone: I'm having a hard week, I feel like quitting, etc. It really makes me think that something erupted with a co-worker. I don't know that it is all about the issues with your daughter, I would urge you not to assume the worst.

[TwinFoxes]

I just want to say don't kick yourself. You really did what you thought was best. If only we could be all knowing. :hug:

As an aside, don't feel especially guilty about DD crying at potty training. My DDs have cried before (usually after nap when grumpy), and I only use positive reinforcement. Then 1 minute later they are laughing at their "output".

[AnnieW625]

You can't change the world but who knows maybe the director had been having issues with fired teacher before. I think almost every daycare or school for that matter has staffing issues and some are definitely more out in the open than others. I don't know if I would've sent that email to the director of the school but I don't think you did any harm by doing so. :hug:

[Cuckoomamma]

I think that sometimes it's really hard to advocate for your child, to stand out and be the one speaking up about things that others brush off. You and your dh should be patting yourselves on the back for approaching the daycare. I completely understand that you feel guilty for not doing more sooner, but the important thing is that you did do something.

Best of all, this situation will give you the confidence to stand up in the future for your dd when it's uncomfortable. My girls are much older than your dd, but we've had several different incidents pop up over the years where we needed to advocate for them. While it's never comfortable, I'm not apologetic anymore. Your dd knows that you'll listen to her and stick up for her. That means so so much. Good job mamma!