Ferber questions...or something else?

[mm123]

I have a few questions for those of you who have used Ferber, especially on an older baby. I don't have the book, but have been reading a lot online, and still have a few unanswered questions.

Background info: DD2 is now 13 months old. Up until around 11ish months, her sleep was not great but slowly getting better. By 11 months, we had a nice routine: she'd go down around 6:30 or 7 pm, bath, book, nursing, rocking, putting her to bed awake, and then she'd suck her thumb until she fell asleep on her own. Then she'd wake up once, around 3 or 4 am, I'd nurse her, and she'd go back to sleep until around 6 or 7 am.

Well, things have gotten progressively worse instead of better. She still goes down ok at 6:30 or 7, but now wakes up 3-4 times a night (every 2-3 hours). She nurses for around 5 minutes, and then goes back to sleep. This is making me crazy, and I've been a zombie at work, so we're thinking we need to start turning things around somehow, and were hoping Ferber would help with that.

So, my questions are:

1. Have any of you done it with a baby over 1 year? Most of what I've read seems to focus on babies around 5-6 months old.

2. The guidelines I've found seem to also focus on the intial falling asleep- that's not the problem for us. Would it work for the middle of the night wakings as well?

3. When you go in at the intervals, what exactly did you do? DD tends to stand up and scream. Do you just talk to them, pat them, lay them back down, and for how long did you stay in the room?

4. Would it probably work better for DH or for me to go in at the intervals (she's used to me coming in and nursing her).

5. I wouldn't mind if she went back to waking once at 3 or 4 am. Should that be our goal, or for simplicity, should we aim for all the way to 6am?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm having mixed emotions about the whole thing. In our situation, is there anything else anyone would suggest besides Ferber? I'm willing to let it go a bit longer, but am afraid I'll get into a car accident soon by falling asleep at the wheel!

Oh- we've already tried co-sleeping numerous times. Doesn't work- she's a huge kicker, and none of us end up getting any sleep.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and/or rays of hope!!!

[truly scrumptious]

First of all, hugs :hug:. I've been there with the sleep deprivation and it's awful.

We've had to use some version of the Ferber method with DS three times now. Once when he was about 7 months, once at about 16 months, and once at around 24 months. So it definitely works. I don't have the book either, but I've read the concept in other books and used the basic graduated CIO strategy. We have used it both for bedtime and for nighttime wakings.

Basically, he wakes (or it is bedtime) and we go in once to check on him. He cries when we leave, we wait three minutes and go back in to check. Repeat after 5 minutes, 10 minutes etc. The first couple of nights are the worst, but we have never had to do it more than 5 nights in a row, before he starts to fall asleep on his own.

To answer your questions:

1. Have any of you done it with a baby over 1 year? Most of what I've read seems to focus on babies around 5-6 months old.
- Yes, as I mentioned, we've done it at various ages.

2. The guidelines I've found seem to also focus on the intial falling asleep- that's not the problem for us. Would it work for the middle of the night wakings as well?
- Yes, it does.

3. When you go in at the intervals, what exactly did you do? DD tends to stand up and scream. Do you just talk to them, pat them, lay them back down, and for how long did you stay in the room?
- We'll have minimal interaction. We'll walk in, check to make sure everything is okay (e.g. if he's lost his pacifier we'll give it back to him), kiss him, say goodnight and walk out. Less than a minute in the room. The key is to make the interaction as boring as possible for them so they don't see any benefit in prolonging the crying to get you back in. At your DD's age you can lay her back down, but she might just stand up again. In that case, don't bother laying her down again, because she'll just keep fighting it.

4. Would it probably work better for DH or for me to go in at the intervals (she's used to me coming in and nursing her).
- For the first night or two, it would be a great idea for your DH to do it so she doesn't expect to be nursed. But you'll have to deal with it at some point, because the first time you walk in to her (after a couple of days) she might still expect you to nurse her.

5. I wouldn't mind if she went back to waking once at 3 or 4 am. Should that be our goal, or for simplicity, should we aim for all the way to 6am?
- See how she does the first night - I would recommend trying to aim for 6 a.m. already so you don't have to unlearn another pattern later.
If she still wakes at 3, you can try nursing her, but it might prolong the whole Ferberizing process. My DS didn't drop his 4 a.m. feed until he was about 11 mo.

Just another note, if you've never done this before. It is terrible for the first couple of nights - pure torture. DS would literally be sobbing in his room, and I would be sobbing in DH's arms outside his door. It breaks your heart to hear them so upset. But stick to your ground. If you give in once it'll totally undo everything, and it'll be worth it after day 5 when you're sleeping again. I would kiss him whenever I went in just to make myself feel better - that I am showing him that I love him and haven't abandoned him. But that I am not going to pick him up or play with him at night.

Good luck! Hope you get some sleep soon!

[Uno-Mom]

I really recommend you pick up the original book. It is a good read. And I think you'll know for certain whether the theory is for you or not after you read his words. The real spirit of his method comes through his writing style. For us, it was the right thing. It is so hard, though.

BTW, Ferber does specifically answer these questions in the book. But here are our experiences:
1. Yes. Sprog has been a pretty good sleeper but we've had to do it a few time after a period of sickness, or whatever, threw off her cycle. It seems different with an older baby - she is PISSED at us but not totally forlorn and lost like a littler one would be. It is definitely anger, not fear or sadness. Does that make sense?

If we ever heard real fear in her crying, we'd be in there immediately! Trust me.

2. Yes. When it's happened, her waking is usually around midnight or 4 am. Ferber talks about how those are two different skills: falling asleep initially vs learning how to fall asleep when we half wake up at sleep cycle shifts durign the night.

3. When we've done it, we just go in and lay her back down. We just say "sleep" and leave. It does NOT cheer her up - it makes her more angry but at least she knows we're there. Honestly, we don't go in most of the time. Just when it's been 10 minutes and we're about ready to... we notice that the intensity of her crying has decreased. She's already calming herself down! So even though we'd feel better ourselves if we visited her, we know that would just sabotogue her progress.

4. Usually DH does it in our house. This is because I'm the one who holds Sprog for her bedtime milk during the regular bedtime routine. For us, we believe it's important that she go back to sleep without having more milk...to differentiate between how she independently goes back to sleep in the middle of the night vs regular bedtime (giving her milk would just make her more dependent on us to settle back down). But it's harder for her to accept the "no milk" rule from me than from DH.

5. Our approach, which I think matches Ferber's, is to avoid making her going back to sleep dependent on us. I'd say go all night if you're going to tackle this. It's a mixed message if you feed, rock her to sleep sometimes during the night but not at other times.

Aargh - it's awful, isn't it? I'm so thankful that our problems have been few but they really get to me when they happen. It all intersects with my own sleeping problems and I end up a basket case!

[twowhat?]

We Ferberized the first time around 5 or 6 months.

It was pretty easy then - 20 min of crying the first night, 10 the next, then quiet! That was mainly for the sleep association problem (they always nursed to sleep).

Then around 18 months we had to do it again - this time it was a limit setting problem where DD2 would come up with more and more requests at bedtime to delay our leaving the room (one last kiss, more water, another hug, etc).

That was hard. It's harder when they're verbal. The worst was when DD2 repeatedly screamed "I WANT TO GIVE MOMMY A HUG!!! I WANT TO GIVE MOMMY A HUG!!!!" Ugh!!! Again, it only took a couple nights. But this time I made sure to prepare DD2 so it wasn't just that we left her to cry with no explanation ("at bedtime, we read books, then Mommy will give you kisses and tuck you in and you can have ONE last drink and then you need to go to bed. Goodnight and I'll see you in the morning.")

Then we had to do it again around 26 months (I think - I probably posted about it LOL). It was also another limit setting problem - probably the same one as the previous bedtime limit setting problem, but manifesting itself at night wakings instead. It took me months to realize that it was another limit setting problem. And it was DD2 again (little stinker). It started with waking at 2am and asking to be covered. then it progressed to waking multiple times at night asking to be covered. We tried to reason with her to no avail. Both DH and I were so frustrated, tired, and at each other's throats. Finally it hit me that it was a limit setting problem and I told DH (who would get so upset by it that he'd end up yelling) to sleep in our room while I slept in the guest bedroom and re-Ferberized. We spend an entire weekend teaching DD to cover herself with her blanket and telling her that at night she would have to do it herself. Ferberizing this time took 3-4 nights.

And it was hard. I followed the checking intervals at each night waking. This time the following things were screamed: "I WANT MOMMY TO COME IN MY ROOM! I PEED IN MY DIAPER (liar). I NEED MY DIAPER CHANGED! I NEED MOMMY TO COVER ME. BLANKET!!! BLANKET!! I THREW MY BLANKET OUT OF THE CRIB (which she in fact did, but I just stuck to the suggested time intervals for checking and if her blanket had been thrown out I gave it back to her but with no comment other than "You know how to cover yourself. Goodnight".) "I NEED A TISSUE FOR MY TEARS". The first night DD2 cried for an hour, followed by DD1 (who suddenly decided she needed to be covered with her blanket too) for an hour for a grand total of 2 hours but then both slept through the rest of the night!. Next night it was just DD1, and only for an hour, and then she slept through! Each time I went in, I simply said "you know how to cover yourself. It is time to go to sleep. Goodnight and see you in the morning". That's it - I was in and out in 15 seconds.

Just this week I had to re-inforce limit setting at bedtime when DD2 (seriously, the little STINKER!) started asking for extra back rubs at bedtime. But this time I knew what she was trying to start, so I nipped it in the bud early. She only protested about 10 minutes for a couple of nights.

I also totally recommend reading the original book. So full of info, and I imagine I will refer to it many times over the next several years! Our bedtime routing is relaxing (not stressful), and they sleep quietly all night with the exception of when they're sick. Seriously, I don't know what I would have done without the book. DH and I might've killed each other by now!

[Uno-Mom]

Twowhat you crack me up! I suspect DD2 has great things in store for her someday...

You bring up a good point about sleeping in the guest room. DH has done that for me a few times when Sprog was having a rough couple days. He's able to slip back to sleep almost instantly after an episode but I'll be up and jittery for ages. One good night's sleep made all the difference for me! It's hard to deal with anythign when you're sleep-deprived and not thinking clearly.

[twowhat?]

Twowhat you crack me up! I suspect DD2 has great things in store for her someday...

You bring up a good point about sleeping in the guest room. DH has done that for me a few times when Sprog was having a rough couple days. He's able to slip back to sleep almost instantly after an episode but I'll be up and jittery for ages. One good night's sleep made all the difference for me! It's hard to deal with anythign when you're sleep-deprived and not thinking clearly.

LOL! She's definitely going to give us a run for our money. She's a drama queen, sneaky, and smart. One night she even tried screaming "I POOPED IN MY DIAPER" (liar).

We've used the guest room strategy on several occassions during periods of disrupted sleep. It makes such a difference to get 2 consecutive nights of good sleep, and then we'd trade off.

[truly scrumptious]

LOL! She's definitely going to give us a run for our money. She's a drama queen, sneaky, and smart. One night she even tried screaming "I POOPED IN MY DIAPER" (liar.)

LOL. DS tried this with us once. He got no satisfaction from the one second that DH went in, sniffed him, and walked back out. So he never tried it again. The most creative one was,"I want to go potty." Knowing we wouldn't refuse to let him sit on the potty. Sigh.

[twowhat?]

LOL. DS tried this with us once. He got no satisfaction from the one second that DH went in, sniffed him, and walked back out. So he never tried it again. The most creative one was,"I want to go potty." Knowing we wouldn't refuse to let him sit on the potty. Sigh.

It is amazing how quickly kids learn that announcing any bodily function causes parents to scramble.

OP - yours is too young to do this....YET!!! Now you have fair warning!

[mm123]

Thanks for the tips. Much appreciated.

I'll probably pick up the book soon, but first I wanted to have a bit of info, and of course, I have to get up the courage to actually DO it!! I keep waiting to see if the situation will somehow magically improve on it's own....

[Uno-Mom]

I keep waiting to see if the situation will somehow magically improve on it's own....

I hope it does!