Can/Do you have compassion for stupid people?

[ha98ed14]

Inflammatory title on purpose. Are you someone who can look at someone else who is suffering and have compassion for them even when it is obvious (which is, granted, a matter of perspective)... even when it is obvious [IYO], that their suffering is at their own hand? They're not a victim of circumstance or accident or fluke. They made their bed, and now they are lying in it.

So what say ye? Can you have compassion on them for anything OTHER than being stupid enough to make the dumb@ss decision that got them into this mess?

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

Okay, you have to tell us the backstory here... Inquiring minds want to know!

[bisous]

Yes. Because although I don't consider myself "stupid" per se, I do make lots of mistakes and it makes me feel sad to see suffering.

Maybe if I was more awesome it would irk me but I'm pretty flawed and hence, sympathetic!

[kijip]

Usually, yes. Because pain is pain and all humans deserve respect and compassion. I get irked with some (my legendarily awful brother and sil being two of those) but in the end, I still want the best for them. It is when someone's bad choice is causing others pain, especially children, that my patience wears thin. But even if that is the case, I don't usually lose all shreds of compassion. There are a few exceptions but they have tended to be the violent criminal sort- for example I have little compassion for my mother's mother who abused my mom to the point of multiple disabilities- significant hearing loss and epilepsy, to say nothing of the emotional devastation of being raised like that. Still in the end I do feel some compassion because I know that my great grandmother was no better to her...it is a cycle that took my mother, who was uncommonly remarkable in this respect, to halt.

[infomama]

I will try and help someone through a difficult time, even if it is completely self created 99 percent of the time.

I don't always think...."it's OK what they have done to land where they are" but that's not really the question....it's in my blood to help out if I can.

[Green_Tea]

Yes. Because although I don't consider myself "stupid" per se, I do make lots of mistakes and it makes me feel sad to see suffering.

Maybe if I was more awesome it would irk me but I'm pretty flawed and hence, sympathetic!

:yeahthat:

In some cases I might lack compassion for people who have made bad choices and suffer the consequences, but I cannot say that I do not have compassion for all people who make bad choices. My Dad is overweight because he eats to much and doesn't exercise. He knows what he has to do to NOT be overweight, but chooses not to. Yet I didn't lack compassion for him when he needed bypass surgery.

We are all flawed in some way.

[BillK]

Dealing with the public on a daily basis I can say I have less and less compassion for those who do nothing to help themselves and continually make what appear to be the wrong choices. It seems the general populace around me is getting dumber and dumber every year and I just can't figure out how most even survive....

[ha98ed14]

We are all flawed in some way.

I know you are right. I do. It just takes me a while to get there. I guess I am feeling particularly self righteous these days. Poo on me!

[kijip]

I also think that it is important to factor in that bad decisions and mistakes do not equal stupidity. I have made some bad choices at times, but attribute that to human error and not stupidity. I think of all the things I could consider myself, stupid is not one of them. The same goes for many people I know, many of who have made arguably worse choices and had worse results or maybe made better choices and had a worse result. It happens.

A calculated risk sometimes just turns bad for people- those who bought a bit too much house, those who moved for a job and then were laid off because they were the newest ones on the job, my parents who once sold everything and drove us across the country to a new city, because my brother needed specific medical care, counting on a job transfer that evaporated...we ended up homeless which many people seem to equate with stupidity but OTOH, my brother with CP was able to get the treatment he needed in our new state and stay out of group care. The long term benefits have outweighed the year living in a van and motel. Does this make any sense at all?

[ha98ed14]

It seems the general populace around me is getting dumber and dumber every year and I just can't figure out how most even survive....

I've had similar thoughts after working in gov't and policy. Dunno either other than the will to survive (and procreate!) are very strong.

[momof2girls]

I feel like a bad person because while I do have compassion for people who make a stupid choice or choose poorly, I have a hard time having compassion who continually makes the same stupid choice after already knowing the outcome will not be good.

[Reyadawnbringer]

Dealing with the public on a daily basis I can say I have less and less compassion for those who do nothing to help themselves and continually make what appear to be the wrong choices. It seems the general populace around me is getting dumber and dumber every year and I just can't figure out how most even survive....

This. I couldn't have said it better.

[sste]

Absolutely. I agree with kjip that hardly anyone is stupid - - usually they are damaged in some way, haven't been given good opportunities in life, or have a character flaw or lack of discipline.

I do think that compassion is different however from befriending, rescuing, etc. I feel a great deal of compassion but I am reluctant to get involved in a situation involving someone I think is damaged beyond repair, volatile/unpredictable, or chronically causes problems for him/herself.

[ha98ed14]

I also think that it is important to factor in that bad decisions and mistakes do not equal stupidity. I have made some bad choices at times, but attribute that to human error and not stupidity. I think of all the things I could consider myself, stupid is not one of them. The same goes for many people I know, many of who have made arguably worse choices and had worse results or maybe made better choices and had a worse result. It happens.

A calculated risk sometimes just turns bad for people- those who bought a bit too much house, those who moved for a job and then were laid off because they were the newest ones on the job, my parents who once sold everything and drove us across the country to a new city, because my brother needed specific medical care, counting on a job transfer that evaporated...we ended up homeless which many people seem to equate with stupidity but OTOH, my brother with CP was able to get the treatment he needed in our new state and stay out of group care. The long term benefits have outweighed the year living in a van and motel. Does this make any sense at all?

"Stupid" was tongue and cheek on purpose. But FWIW, NO WAY would I consider the description you describe above re:moving for your brother's medical needs and the disappearing job a stupid decision. That CLEARLY falls under "Victim of Circumstance". They did not choose for him to get sick. Or choose to not take a job that was offered. I'm talking about people whose choices lead directly (and fore.see.able.ly!!! sp?) to their own suffering.

[wellyes]

I think compassion is a more worthy virtue than righteousness.
I think everyone is stupid sometimes.
I think callousness towards suffering is disgusting.
I think whiny people suck.

[ha98ed14]

I think compassion is a more worthy virtue than righteousness.
I think everyone is stupid sometimes.
I think callousness towards suffering is disgusting.
I think whiny people suck.

ITA. I think I will print this out.

It *IS* the whining that makes me feel callous towards them & their suffering. Not that that is an excuse, but it's the woe-is-me-s coming from the people who you'd think would know better that make me bristle. The ones who don't whine, well, you'd never know they are suffering some of them.

But you're right on all counts.

[kijip]

"Stupid" was tongue and cheek on purpose. But FWIW, NO WAY would I consider the description you describe above re:moving for your brother's medical needs and the disappearing job a stupid decision. That CLEARLY falls under "Victim of Circumstance". They did not choose for him to get sick. Or choose to not take a job that was offered. I'm talking about people whose choices lead directly (and fore.see.able.ly!!! sp?) to their own suffering.

Trust me, there was some bad decision making going on through the years. Really poor decisions with somewhat predictable outcomes. I do think it is very important to remember that not everyone has the same set of choices in the first place. And also bear in mind that while it turned out for the best, my parents were defying conventional wisdom at the time which said that my brother's best treatment options were not home based. They could have sent him to a home in the state we lived and stayed ok working class. My relatives thought they were nuts for giving up everything and putting us in the situation where we all ended up homeless until years later when medical practices changed and the prevailing thought was that kids with my brother's condition could be best served at home and stay more independent. Given that my brother is now 28 with 2 kids, a husband, a 4 house in the burbs and a functional SAHP, clearly the old medical wisdom that an institution was best was misguided. But it did not seem so misguided at the time to many. Just saying we do not always know what we don't know.

And when we moved here it was in a VW van from the early 70s. You do not want to know the carseat situation, but I am going to tell you anyways for comic relief. It was 1984 and my 2 year old brother rode in a carseat that was not secured to anything that sat on the floor between the front seats. My older brother and I rode laying down, with almost no head space/clearance on top of all the boxes with pillows and coloring books and stuff. We did not sit in the seats because they were covered in boxes of our clothes, family pictures, things that they could not afford to replace when we moved. My parents would open the door and we would slide out and down. This is why I appreciate carseats but can no longer get too worked up over the issue. And why I don't think my kids need a DVD player for a longish drive. We drove for days like that, peering out of the sliver of windows we could see. Plenty entertaining. :p

[ha98ed14]

Okay, you have to tell us the backstory here... Inquiring minds want to know!

Oh there are so many back stories right now, but wellyes hit the nail on the head: not having compassion for people who are suffering is disgusting, AND whiny people suck. I think I have become momentarily callous (I hope!) because of hearing the whining a lot lately.

The underlying theme to all the stories is that these people's idealism gets in the way of common sense, but then they whine and cry over it and expect the rest of us to say, "Oh poor you! There, there, now..."

They have children they can't afford (time and/or money) and then complain about how exhausted they are and how hard it is b/c they have x number of children. I'm particularly sensitive to this one because some people have said, and I think others must think it too, "Oh you have it so easy because you only have one!" My response is, "Yes, I do have it easier because I have one. I knew my limits and stopped there. And you...?" This has been an ongoing theme with SIL for the last 5 years. Neither of us can think nice thoughts about the other and much of it centers on this issue. She has this image of the idea Christian family where the mom SAH and HS's the kids (and the more kids, the better), and the wife is the happy homemaker and the H works and all their children are virtuous and lovely. And that is just not how her life is. She's overwhelmed and complains ad nausium to MIL, who rushes to aid her. The kids are ill mannered and can be mean. The second son is bitter about how he gets no attention from either parent AND he is articulating it to anyone and everyone who will listen. There are lots of other (IMO) nutty things about SIL's life that feed this too. All are the result of decisions she has made. I feel particularly resentful when MIL tells me I need to have more compassion for and make accommodations for SIL because, after all, she does have 4 kids. Yes. She does. Because she wanted 4 kids. And, MIL says, "SIL is so overwhelmed with her HSing 4 kids and her H is never home b/c he's a doctor and works these crazy hours, and, and, and..." And that means that all extended family events, issues, etc. must be decided in SIL's favor?!?! Does that strike anyone else as unfair? Cause it sure feels that way to me! These were her choices! Her DH worked crazy hours when they only had the two older boys. There's a 5 year gap between #2 & #3. She's told us #3 was planned and I know #4 was. These were her choices. Forgive me if I don't feel a lot of compassion towards her when she belly aches about how hard her life is.

This is an old story IRL and even on this board. (ETA: I mean my complaining about my SIL is an old story.) There are similar ones where spouses stay with spouses that are unfaithful, unsupportive, even boarding on verbal abuse, but they stay with them out of an idealized view of marriage, fear of making it on their own financially and/ or just not wanting to be alone. Another family member is living this lie. But as her relative, I am supposed to have a listening ear and compassion while she complains to me about all the things he does wrong... for the millionth time. Leave him! You have a good job and a master's degree and the ability to afford daycare. Be done with him.

Then there are people who quit their jobs before they have another. And people who fail to take the educational opportunities that are being handed to them free. of. charge. And no, it would not require them to move or give up a job. Just get off thier @ss! And the people who leave their 9 year old to watch their 10 month old and then the baby chokes on a piece of popcorn the 9 y.o. gave the baby, and the baby ends up in the hospital on a respirator. Yes it could happen to anyone, but it also could have been prevented!

So now maybe this needed to go in the BP! BUT to turn this thread around, tell me, when do you stop feeling sorry for people AND stop feeling guilty about NOT feeling sorry for them?

[kijip]

I don't feel sorry for them. I feel compassion for their situation. Not the same thing as feeling sorry for them. I do what I can or am willing to do and I don't feel guilty about it. Sometimes I do wish there was more that could be done in a given situation, but I don't think it is incumbent on ME to be that solution in any given situation. I learned, finally, that charity needs to start at home and I need to make sure my family is cared for before I worry too much about others. Thankfully, my family is cared for and I do have time to help a little.

[ha98ed14]

I don't feel sorry for them. I feel compassion for their situation. Not the same thing as feeling sorry for them. I do what I can or am willing to do and I don't feel guilty about it. Sometimes I do wish there was more that could be done in a given situation, but I don't think it is incumbent on ME to be that solution in any given situation. I learned, finally, that charity needs to start at home and I need to make sure my family is cared for before I worry too much about others. Thankfully, my family is cared for and I do have time to help a little.

Ok, well put some hands and feet on this for me. If I am being compassionate (even if I am faking it 'til I make it), am I bound to do everything SIL's way? Do I have to listen to my relative drone on and one about her horrible marriage? Because when I don't answer the phone, and I have done this a lot, she knows I'm avoiding her because I don't want to hear it and she calls me on it.

So if charity begins at home, what do you do with your crazy relatives? Because I think it's *easy* to have compassion on people outside our family who are visibly poor, hungry, naked, sick.

[wellyes]

In your shoes I would probably let go of the SIL thing. You are not going to succeed in convincing your MIL to take your side over her daughter's, or that SIL produced too many grandchildren ( not that that's how you think of it, but hopefully you know what I mean). I would step back, try to find some humor in it, and probably just decline get togethers with them more often to keep my stress level down. Probably not the best approach, but it's what I'd do.

As for the 'my husband is awful' frenemy, I would treat her the same way I treat all tedious people.... I'd fill the conversation with my own stories and think up new subjects to talk about prior to chatting with her. Keep the connection without letting her dominate the conversation.

[niccig]

For me, it depends. I've tended to make friends with extremely needy people and their dramas, note not real emergencies, tended to take over my life. I don't have the mental energy for that anymore. So I've put up boundaries, and that means no, I don't always answer the phone - I listen to voicemail and then call back or call later if it's not urgent. And no I don't rush to your aid, when it's your stupid decision and there is another alternative, that isn't as pleasant, but dang, choices have consequences. A real emergency, I would be there.

But when it's family, it's more difficult. With the relative and the bad marriage, that was my younger sister. She would call and complain to my older sister about her DH and my older sister finally said "leave him" and then younger sister would get all upset at her. Younger sister did finally divorce her DH, but it has irrevocably damaged the sister relationship. Older sister basically said, I'm done with you, as she was truly overwhelmed by the midnight crying phone calls.

My take on witnessing this, I wasn't part of it as living OS, is that all you can do is say to your relative "I don't know what it is you want me to do? I'll support you in any decision you make, but I can't make your H change his behaviour." Try to get her to go see a therapist who can work with her concretely on making changes to her life. It sounds like she wants you to listen and listen until she's ready to make a decision. And at least what I saw with my sister, it can take a while to admit what you already know.

As for your SIL, can you tell MIL "I understand she's overwhelmed, but my life doesn't revolve around SILs wishes. I don't mind doing x or y family activities the way she wants, but a and b do not work for us." If MIL brings it up again tell her "MIL, we've discussed this and I've told you what we can do" and then pass the bean dip. It'll help if your DH is in agreement. If other people keep bringing up SIL and her situation, pass the bean dip and change the topic to something else. I found the less I heard about the situation, the better it was for me - especially when it's a situation I can not do anything about.

I've found putting up those boundaries has helped me when dealing with the crazy family/friends as I feel like I'm no longer at their beck and call. I have control over the situation as well. For me it's more mental, so I don't take on the angst to my detriment. Something else has helped is that I'm busy, so I don't have the time to devote to never ending drama - that's how my parents are and it's soooo nice to not have drama in my home life, so I'm not about to take on others drama. Note. I'm not talking about real emergency, a friend called me late one night last week with real emergency and I was there to take her son without a 2nd thought. I mean the drama that has no end.

[kijip]

Ok, well put some hands and feet on this for me. If I am being compassionate (even if I am faking it 'til I make it), am I bound to do everything SIL's way? Do I have to listen to my relative drone on and one about her horrible marriage?

No. Being compassionate for someone does not mean you have to participate in toxic interactions or always bend to their will. That is a way to make you crazy. The brother who is basically reasonable (the gay SAHD) is also a very selfish person. Very selfish in many ways and a drama queen supreme when it comes to getting his way. I love him. But we all have a flaw and this is his. An example where he always wants his way is holidays, but is also a terrible host and his husband is a mediocre to bad cook. Compounding the issue is that my BILs family is awful...just annoying as as all hell... They don't approve of gay people but considering their son is partnered with my brother and they have two kids, you think they would shut up about it, right? No. Eating Christmas dinner with them sucks. But no, I do not go to his house each and every holiday because that is his wish. I have my own holiday if need be but I meet them halfway here and there. "you come to my house on the 22nd for our volunteer deliveries and decorating and kids crafts and then on Christmas morning and dinner we each do our own thing. Then we will come to your house for dessert and drinks and presents and I will buy a bottle of (insert their favorite drink of the month)". One year they went nuts over Thanksgiving, we just called and said "thanks for the invite but we are taking the boys to see the other grandparents this year.". I am done with family drama. I am not done with my family but drama is over. So I just offer what I can and work it out and move on. Often, when we make plans it works out like a collaboration rather than me dictating my boundaries or him demanding that I suffer through his insufferable inlaws. we just work it out.


So if charity begins at home, what do you do with your crazy
relatives? Because I think it's *easy* to have compassion on people outside our family who are visibly poor, hungry, naked, sick.

For my crazy brother and SIL, I do what I can, which considering the risk they posed to me is not a lot. But I get gifts for the kids. I email old family photos when I find them that he would be interested in...us as kids and he does the same. I will let them drop off their kids for a little bit if they need a break. We even had them over for Chirstmas dinner last year. My dad pulled the mom card on me and I consented. It was not bad. We are never going to be best buds and we keep them at arms length but there is no reason why their kids can't come and bounce at Ts bouncy house party or why I can't pass on a bag of clothes or books through my dad to them here and there. We put a (very) little money away for each of the three kids each month so that if they ever need help with college incidentals or something we can help (not that we have told them this). A few weeks back, I posted a picture of my mom as a teen on this board. I had never seen this picture till this brother emailed it to me...he took it from her mother's album years ago. Had I been so filled with rage towards him still that I would not talk a little, I would never have seen this picture. Yet given how few pictures exist of my mother (literally she photographically did not exist before marriage), this picture profoundly moved me and is a gift I will cherish forever. it is a comfort of great value to me 2 years after her death. Will I pay his light bill? No. But I would give him the number for a good utility charity if need be. And frankly, they are doing a lot better than before thanks to affordable housing and stable (if very low paying- he is a beer vendor at ballgames and she gets shifts at a retail store) employment. If they could not afford their housing or could not find some work, I am sure the stress would make all hell break loose with them again. The social services they got + the affordable housing have made them calmer, more rational people. It is clear that poverty and dear was a huge part if their problem when things were really the worst with them. It is a work in progress but there is hope that we are normalizing relations after all this time.

And working at a homelessness organization, I would say that compassion for the most visibly poor and ill is low now. I think it is easy to feel pity for a visibly poor person but I think true compassion is rare. Most people walk right by and won't even look someone in the eye. So many people really have bought the idea that homelessness is a choice and not a misfortune. And bought the idea that it is normal and ok for people to have no homes...that people who what jobs and houses can always find them. Many people blame homeless people for their poverty and are extremely unkind. Homeless people are even targeted for assualt by some middle class folks, mainly young men. It is terrible.

[bisous]

Hmm. Well, I think you can be compassionate towards your SIL without bending unduly, for sure! You can examine your situation and see what works for you and yours (i.e as other posters mentioned taking care of YOUR family) first whatever is leftover can be freely given, right?

I would keep it at that level. If family outings/parties don't work for you, they don't work for you! You can still be a friend to your SIL by helping when it is convenient, when it works for you. You can still hope that her burdens will be lighter, but you are NOT obligated to put away your needs!

I hope you can find that sweet spot in your family relations. I know you've mentioned that one of your SILs children would be a good playmate for your DD so I can see a silver lining in that relationship. I don't know how stretched you are or how you are personally doing but lending a hand in a way that is comfortable to you might actually make you feel better and might go a long way in family relations!

But don't feel like you can never have things your way. Just set your boundaries and do all within your power to do good. That you can stand. Does that make sense?

[egoldber]

No. Being compassionate for someone does not mean you have to participate in toxic interactions or always bend to their will. That is a way to make you crazy.

:yeahthat:

I have plenty of toxic relatives whose lives are a disaster due to a combo of poor choices and also bad luck. For some of them I feel much compassion because they were really never given much of a chance to succeed due to parenting, etc. But when you're approaching 30 and still making bad choices....it gets harder to maintain that compassion. But I express compassion, help when I can, and visit when it is convenient.