Advice needed for EI (speech) for bilingual child from anyone BTDT Update #15

[plusbellelavie]

This past week DS2 pediatrician strongly recommended that he be evaluated it is her opinion that he will be put in speech therapy if/when he is evaluated. DS2 is otherwise developing normally only his speech is delayed. She tried to push the evaluation at his 2yr apt but we didn't believe it was necessary seeing we had only been in the States for 6mths and that older DCs spoke later as well and that we (DH and I) just frankly didn't think it was needed and we told the doctor so. She understood our "hesitation" but ask that we bring him back in 6 months to reassess. Well this week we went back and again we (DH and I) have no worries about his speech but his pediatrician does so we decided (after several discussions between ourselves) to follow her advice and get DS2 evaluated. BTW DS2 is a little over 2.5 years old now.


A little background DS2 was born and for the first 18 mths lived in France. I would say that 95% of the world he heard then was in French.

At 18mths we moved back to the States. Over the passed year I would say that it is now 85% French he hears and 15% English. DH and I speak to him primarily in French, the older DC mix both French and English with him, the rest of his English exposure comes from outings/activities we have been involved in together when the older DCs are in school. But, one of his "regular" outings is a French playgroup with kids his age that happens once every other week.

He is able to understand and follow commands in either language.

The current words he has are a mix of French and English but the majority are French but he knows some in both languages. He knows the majority of his letter but he says most of them in French. Most people outside the family wouldn't understand him unless they spoke some French and spent time with him regularly or at least really paid attention to what he was trying to communicate.

We "know" that DS2 is "delayed" in speech in comparison to his peers but I believe his delay comes from being bilingual and also being doted on by 4 other people (we are working on having him "ask" us for something rather then anticipating his needs and giving it to him). I have seen progress in him but he is certainly not talking as much as his little playmates.

So has anyone had their bilingual child tested can you tell me about it. If your bilingual child ended up in speech therapy can you tell me how they handled the two languages?

Any advice, insight, recommendations, questions we should be asking etc you can give us would be appreciated.
Early Intervention is a totally new road for DH and I we could really use some guidance from those who have BTDT.

Not that it matter since each child is different but neither of our older DCs had any early evaluation the only test they had was for hearing (BTW DS2 doctor didn't feel that it was necessary to test his hearing) and once they passed that neither of their pediatrician pursued "speech therapy" with us for them even though they both spoke "late". DS1 speech was more developed then DS2 at the same age, DD was later and she was really not talking a lot(especially outside the home) until she was 4 or so but we chalk that up to being bilingual, DS1 being a social chatterbox, her personality which is more reserved then either of her brothers....she will soon be 9 and we don't see any differences between her and peers speech.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Simon]

FTR, Ds2 is 18 mo and in speech therapy through EI but he is monolingual. I could see a 'delay' in him around 1yo so I switched into nearly exclusive english.

Did your Dr. give any more specifics about the cause of his concern? I mean, can he say more than he is delayed compared to peers? Is it the size of your Ds2's vocabulary? How many words in Fr or Eng does he have?
Has he started stringing words together into phrases/sentences like "more ___" or "car go"?

We started Ds1 bilingual French/English and it didn't delay his speech at all, though his exposure was the reverse of your son's as he is in the States and hears mostly Eng.

Ds2 is speech delayed but it is clearly more than just "talking less" than his peers. There are specific things we can point to: too few consonants, late in waving/pointing or other gesturing, forgetting words or losing language over time; no consistant words, does NOT understand everything we say, etc.

The only other reason I can see to want to pursue testing now (as opposed to later) is because the EI programs end at 3yo. Our friends started the process too late for their son and he doesn't qualify by school district standards though he would have through EI.

[JustMe]

Well, perhaps I am a little biased in the other direction because I tend to believe it can't hurt to have the speech therapy if they test as being qualified.

Our story is a little different. Ds is adopted and bilingual. When he was placed with me, I noticed lots of articulation difficulties, missing words in speech. I do speak both of his languages and knew somethings were due to being bilingual, but I didnt think some of the other things were (like sounds that are idenitcal in both languages that at 4.5 he should have had). He had been tested while in foster care a year before and did not qualify;I am sure that his being bilingual was part of the reason for that. Anyway, I asked to have him tested and he did qualify (he was a year older at that point), but just barely. We enrolled and he made a ton of progress in 6 months. He probably will not qualify for very much longer, and perhaps he would have gotten to this point without the therapy...but I have no regrets and didnt want to take the chance. We only did the therapy in English, which was fine for us b/c, as I said, he was missing some sounds that are identical in both languages.

[bubbaray]

Can you have him assessed by a bilingual SLP? That might be helpful. Both my girls have been in ST. Their SLP (same one for both) said that bilingual children are delayed initially in all aspects of speech, but catch up by school age.

GL!

[plusbellelavie]

Thanks so much for those who posted and PMed me. sorry that I posted and checked out...I once again juggling things myself around here.

The main concern for the doctor is his limited vocabulary, that he didn't speak while she was present (more his personality IMO and I told her so but she would have liked to see some "talking") At the visit he followed my directions but didn't speak...he didn't answer any of her questions
I tried to have him speak for her but he refused too again he "looks" outgoing but he has a pretty reserved personality out in public until he is comfortable. She asked me server al questions and I guess from my answers,his age, and her observations she came to her recommendation.


In all other aspects he is developing normally...some milestones have been later then others but all fall in the normal range. The doctor's only concern at this time is his speech.

DS2 has just started putting sentences together in the last few weeks...mostly in French such as "moi aussi" and "plus l'eau" some are English too like "me too. He is not forgetting words but more just replacing them with more appropriate words. For example he use to call me "moi" then it became "ma" (not mama just ma) now it is "mammy" (we believe it is a combination of mama with mommy or he attempting to say mummy (French version of mommy). Again only time will tell with that. He is becoming clearer in his pronunciation of his sister's name. He only calls his older brother "da" which is not close to his name. So in total I would say with both languages he has about 15-20 words that are clear and someone outside the family who was listening to him could understand. He has other sounds or words for other objects which we understand but an outsider may or may not. If we don't understand him and he becomes frustrated he can usually find a way now to make us understand what he wants. But, he doesn't get frustrated easily IMO. Again DH and I see that he has made progress and why we are not concern...we are also not concern because we have two older kids who are currently bilingual and have no issues in either languages or in comparison with their peers when it comes to speech. But since things have changed since we had the older ones we don't want be blase about DS2 doctor's concerns and regret it later if there is truly a problem and this is why we agreed to follow his doctor's recommendation now.

It is unclear if the evaluator will be able to speak French or not ...it is our understanding that it is not likely. Not sure how things will be handled or how they can evaluate him if they don't speak the primary language of the child but maybe someone on the Board can tell me more how a child is evaluated and determined to be in need of speech therapy...regardless if they are speaking one or more languages.

I know some of these are probably questions for the evaluator but from those of you who have had a child evaluated for speech therapy what are your recommendation about who in the family should be present during the evaluation. Should the entire family be here, would it be best to schedule it for just DS2 and me and the evaluator? Can someone tell me the process that happens when an evaluator comes into your home and honestly what are they looking for/at when they are here?


JustMe that since the older DCs got "there" w/out intervention even if they were delayed in comparison to their peers that intervention for DS2 even if it just brings him to where he needs to be faster is not necessarily anything to be regretted so I agree with you if it helps him that I am all for it. I guess I hesitate do have it done only in English since that is not the language we are focusing on but hopefully like for you things can overlap between the two languages.

Melissa's I know you are in Canada so was your DDs speech therapy done in both French and English or just English?

Thanks again for the input!!

[bubbaray]

Our first language is English, so the ST was done in English. My understanding is that they mainly work in English, though I"m pretty sure they can do other languages. I saw brochures at the office in many languages (French, Punjabi, Korean, Chinese, etc).

[plusbellelavie]

Thanks...I will ask them tomorrow when I call if they have someone who at least has a basic understanding of French .

[bubbaray]

ST is more about the ability to make a particular sound. For example, DD#2 still can't say the K sound (car is tar, cart is tart, etc). It wouldn't matter if the word with the K sound was an English word or a French word (can't think of a K/hard C example off the top of my head), she has to really think about using that sound (after 6m of working with the SLP).

Our issue initially with DD#2 was that she wasn't really talking much at all. Once DD#1 started school and wasn't doing all the talking for DD#2, her speech took off in terms of vocabulary and use of language. We went back for a reassessment for inability to make certain sounds. We made progress, but not much (unlike with DD#1). So we took a break. I think we should go back. Her dr says she's fine, eventually she'll catch on. I dunno, I'm concerned mainly b/c she'll be in French immersion and school will be WORK on the language front, even without a speech issue.

[MontrealMum]

So has anyone had their bilingual child tested can you tell me about it. If your bilingual child ended up in speech therapy can you tell me how they handled the two languages?


We have not, though based on the many, many posts that I'd read here, I was really anxious about the whole thing.

We are Anglos living in QC (I am American, DH is and Anglo-Quebecker) and my DS is just shy of being 4 years old. For the 1st year DS heard mostly English, and just a smattering of French. Then he started French-only daycare. This meant that he moved to an existence that was about 50% in French, and 50% in English (we only speak English at home, though DH and I are both fluent in French)

I asked about his speech at his 2 yo. appt because he was obviously delayed, but the doctor said that here in Quebec they do not normally do assessments on bilingual children under the age of 3. His hearing was tested at age 2 to rule that out and he was fine. At age 3 he was still on the low end of the language scale, but, on the scale. So, he is not in speech therapy.

Once he hit about 3.5 he started having the "language explosion" that other parents had been talking about for several years. It had been so frustrating to me not to have a child that could effectively communicate with me for so long after others of his age could, but suddenly it was like a switch turned on. And that switch is perfectly, fluently bilingual :)

Although from age 2-3.5 everything that was said to him, whether English or French, was going in and being totally understood...he had just been unable to articulate his thoughts back to us. And now he can. Mind you, it's a lot of "franglais", like, "Pas like pink me", "Love ma bleu fonce bike me" (so both mixed languages and sentence construction), or as my Francophone friend calls it, funny French. He makes a lot of gender mistakes in French that are similar to the ones his French-speaking peers make, he has trouble with personal pronouns, and his verb conjugations are not always correct either, but again, it's all on par w/ other kids his age. But you would not believe the progress he's made in the past year. He's also just made the leap from realizing that he speaks one language at school, and a different one at home, and he now translates what he says for my unilingual parents, which he never did before. He just said it again, louder :)

I'm so glad that we waited and didn't push things as this happened naturally. And apparently (which is why those age minimums exist here in QC), this is extremely normal and common. We have a majority French-speaking population, a minority English-speaking population, and a minority allophone population that speaks a language in the home that is neither French nor English. Most kids here these days are at least bi-, if not tri-, lingual and what my DS has gone through is not unusual at all. What is unusual is that we are two Anglo parents, not a mixed couple of one Anglo-, and one Franco-.

So, my advice to you would be to ask if there's anyone in your area that has experience with dealing with bilingual children - NOT just children with a speech pronunciation/formation issue - and who can help your DS w/o him losing his French. Because you don't necessarily need help with him learning to pronounce certain sounds, but more in the way of him having opportunities to be exposed to practicing English in a "safe" environment, and patterning correct English speech.

I think it would help your DS immensely to have someone with a working knowledge of French, or at least a Romance language, so that when he starts to do what my DS did - combine both in the same sentence, or let sentence structure be influenced by one language even while speaking another - that they can follow, and know what he's saying.

[plusbellelavie]

We have not, though based on the many, many posts that I'd read here, I was really anxious about the whole thing.

We are Anglos living in QC (I am American, DH is and Anglo-Quebecker) and my DS is just shy of being 4 years old. For the 1st year DS heard mostly English, and just a smattering of French. Then he started French-only daycare. This meant that he moved to an existence that was about 50% in French, and 50% in English (we only speak English at home, though DH and I are both fluent in French)

I asked about his speech at his 2 yo. appt because he was obviously delayed, but the doctor said that here in Quebec they do not normally do assessments on bilingual children under the age of 3. His hearing was tested at age 2 to rule that out and he was fine. At age 3 he was still on the low end of the language scale, but, on the scale. So, he is not in speech therapy.

Once he hit about 3.5 he started having the "language explosion" that other parents had been talking about for several years. It had been so frustrating to me not to have a child that could effectively communicate with me for so long after others of his age could, but suddenly it was like a switch turned on. And that switch is perfectly, fluently bilingual :)

Although from age 2-3.5 everything that was said to him, whether English or French, was going in and being totally understood...he had just been unable to articulate his thoughts back to us. And now he can. Mind you, it's a lot of "franglais", like, "Pas like pink me", "Love ma bleu fonce bike me" (so both mixed languages and sentence construction), or as my Francophone friend calls it, funny French. He makes a lot of gender mistakes in French that are similar to the ones his French-speaking peers make, he has trouble with personal pronouns, and his verb conjugations are not always correct either, but again, it's all on par w/ other kids his age. But you would not believe the progress he's made in the past year. He's also just made the leap from realizing that he speaks one language at school, and a different one at home, and he now translates what he says for my unilingual parents, which he never did before. He just said it again, louder :)

I'm so glad that we waited and didn't push things as this happened naturally. And apparently (which is why those age minimums exist here in QC), this is extremely normal and common. We have a majority French-speaking population, a minority English-speaking population, and a minority allophone population that speaks a language in the home that is neither French nor English. Most kids here these days are at least bi-, if not tri-, lingual and what my DS has gone through is not unusual at all. What is unusual is that we are two Anglo parents, not a mixed couple of one Anglo-, and one Franco-.

So, my advice to you would be to ask if there's anyone in your area that has experience with dealing with bilingual children - NOT just children with a speech pronunciation/formation issue - and who can help your DS w/o him losing his French. Because you don't necessarily need help with him learning to pronounce certain sounds, but more in the way of him having opportunities to be exposed to practicing English in a "safe" environment, and patterning correct English speech.

I think it would help your DS immensely to have someone with a working knowledge of French, or at least a Romance language, so that when he starts to do what my DS did - combine both in the same sentence, or let sentence structure be influenced by one language even while speaking another - that they can follow, and know what he's saying.

Wow... you said everything I have been "thinking" so well thank you....what you experience with you son is exactly what we experienced with our older DCs... they spoke later and when they did there was an "explosion" of sorts, they used combination of English and French within the same sentence to express themselves....this was especially true for DD.

When DS1 was 3 or 3.5 he would do as your son did and just repeat what he had said but louder until he grasped that they just didn't understand the language he was speaking and then he would try the other language with them. It was quite impressive to watch him work it out though!

DS2 spoke later then my older DC but he is the one that has been exposed more to "just" French then the two others. Who until we moved to France when they were 6 and 4 had more exposure to English with friends, activities, and school and only had French at home or with relatives on vacation. But, with DS2 since the older ones are in school mostly...he is only with me and I speak to him to mostly in French. I made an effort from Jan-June to get him into activities with kids his age and that worked but his exposure to English even then was very limited.

Although his peditrician would like him to attend preschool for the language exposure as well as the social aspect of it we have decided not to send him to preschool since I am SAHM so his exposure to English will be somewhat limited for the foreseeable future. We don't think this is a negative but rather a positive. Plus, we haven't decided if we enroll him in the French-American school in town or just the local public school....we still have a couple of years so we shall see where things stand then.

DH found a French playgroup mostly made up of parents from France who are here for 6months to a year (sometimes 2 yrs) and have generally young kids although they can speak English they are more comfortable with French. We see it as a great opportunity for DS2 to have French friends as well as give him the opportunity to use his French outside the house. My older DCs didn't have access to this type of playgroup and they were the only children in our circle of friends at the time that spoke another language so they felt odd....when we moved to France their friends there were impressed that they could speak two languages and wanted them to teach them words in English so this was a different expereince for them.

I have to say that I had to "convince" DH that we had nothing to lose with having an evaluation, and that if the doctor recommended it we should trust her judgement etc, and it would be best to know earlier then later etc. If it had been left up to him he would have just thank the doctor for her recommendation and left things the way they are and he feels that is what would have happened if we were still in France! So hard to know what is "best"!

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with your DS!

[niccig]

I am in SLP school, and just did a class on early language acquisition. The professor talked about bilingual children and they can be delayed in both languauge until 5 years old. Some children are not delayed at all. After 5 yo, they are normally advanced. She said it was important to keep up BOTH languages, but talked about being balance bilingual 50-50 in both languages is the ideal, though that is difficult to achieve. She said the worst advice is to drop one language.

I would do an evaluation but make sure SLP knows about bilingual children. If you are near a college that has a MA/MS program in SLP, go there. Grad students will be part of the therapy team, overseen by PhD professors, who are up on latest research..and it is cheaper than private SLP.

I wouldn't stop both languages, I would get advice though if delay is normal bilingual delay, or it could be something else.

[Multimama]

Since you said that your pediatricians main concern was your DS's vocabulary, here is my understanding of how to "count" vocabulary words for bilingual children. First, if they have a word in both languages it counts as *two* words, not just one. So if he has both "me" and "moi" that's two. Also (and this applies to non-bilingual kids too), it's my understanding that at this point you count any words that you understand. It's normal at this age that he might be harder for people outside the family to understand. When you're counting vocab, the focus is not on pronunciation so if *you* understand a certain word to mean a certain thing then it counts as a word in his vocabulary. This can even be extended to words that don't sound much like the "real" word. Like if he consistently calls his brother "Da" then that is his name for his brother and counts as one of his vocabulary words. Does that make sense?

I haven't looked this up in awhile, but I think they want a minimum of 50 words by age 2, so if you told your pediatrician (or s/he somehow got the impression) that he only has 20 words then I could see why s/he would be concerned, but my impression from your description is that he actually has more than enough words to meet the minimum.

[JustMe]

I have skimmed some of the replies, and it seems like having an eval by an SLP who is bilingual in Eng/French and undertands bilingual language acquistion would be ideal. If not, I do think it wouldnt be terrible to have an eval/services (although I do understand your hesitation about it being done in dc's non-dominant language. OTOH, I also think it would be find to wait a while and change some of the things you are doing (encouraging your dc to speak more to express needs, a regular playgroup if possible, etc).

[plusbellelavie]

Niccig Thank you for your insight it is very helpful. We did see that by the age of 5 the older DCs were 'normal" language wise. We won't drop a language because it is part of our family culture and necessary for our kids to speak in order to have relationships with a majority of their French relatives.

Multimama thank you post...after reading your post I discussed it with DH and DS2 doesn't have 50 words in his vocabulary even if we combined and/or counted words that he speaks in both and that only the "family" understands. Quite an eye opener for us!! (His pediatrician got her information from a form she had me fill out both at his 2 year visit and this visit, a series of questions when we met, and her exam of DS2, ) His ability to put two words together has only come about in the past month...since the older DCs have been home all day with him actually. He didn't put two syllables together until about 3 or 4 months
ago.


JustMe...I received a call this morning from the service center to have me answer a series questions and start to the process. When she was done with her questions I I expressed my concerns about the test, having it done in the non-dominant language, and how they will assess that DS2 is delayed just because he is bilingual or is he delayed for other reasons. I asked if there was an evaluator who spoke French who could conduct the test with DS2. Since she didn't know she had the director call within an hour. The director really helped to ease my concerns. She said that even though the test would be conducted in English we (she strongly encourge me to have the older DCs there) would be allowed to translate the question/command as long as we didn't give him the answers. I appreciated that she "heard" my concerns and addressed them!

She set up the initial test for the beginning part of August and she also set up an appointment for 2 weeks after the initial appointment. In the meantime she said to continue to do what we are doing and not to change anything.

Thanks again everyone!

[plusbellelavie]

DS2 had his evaluation today and although delayed in speech he didn't qualify for services. This was the only area that he was delayed he tested above for all other areas tested. He tested at 25%. They told us he had 20 plus words which put him in the 22-24 month category. They also told us that they attribute his delay to the two languages in the home.

They gave some direction on how to improve his "talking" there was suggetion that we stop one language completely for several months and then "re add" the second. I told them that would not be possible for us to do especially with the other kids in the home. So they told us to continue what we are doing and to implement some of their suggestions on gettng him to talk more and that it will come together eventually with some support from us.

We are not suprised by the results but we are happy that we had him tested and that it confirmed our thinking but also gave us peace of mind. Tomorrow we see his peditrician to discuss the results.

Thank you again everyone who PP and PM me it was wonderful to have the feedback.

As an aside they would ask him questions in English and if he didn't respond or appear to understand I would translate the question in French and they would gage his response from that.

[JustMe]

Glad you were able to get some feedback about where your ds is and that you're happy with the results.

[bubbaray]

Glad it all worked out! :thumbsup:

[brittone2]

Thanks for the update. Sounds like it went well.