Update: What do you do when your child employs discipline strategies on you?

[sste]

Thank you so much everyone! Justlearning you need to change your board name to TotalExpert or the like - - that was extremely helpful. :) And Egoldberg, Nicci, and others thank you for letting me know it is OK to basically say, "Because I am the parent." I have hated to put it that way because I hated when my parents did that . . . but I see the point.

So, mixed report so far. I firmly but kindly told DS this morning in response to a conflict that I was the parent and I made the rules so that everyone can be safe and healthy and learn. And he immediately said, "There is rule against what you just said!" So, I kindly and firmly reiterated that I was the parent. And he said "Families help each other. So, families make rules TOGETHER!" And I said no mommies and daddies make the rules.
And he said I was being kicked out of the family then! At that point I stopped talking and just got everyone into the car for camp drop off as DS was about to miss the camp beach trip and seemed too cranky to reason with. Last night DH had a relapse of his generally reformed bedtime behavior and put DS to bed extremely late so I am hoping some of the mean talk was due to crankiness - - DS is much more argumentative rather than bluntly nasty if that makes sense.

Anyway, I am trying to hold the line here. If the teenage years are worse than this in terms of power struggles I do not know what I am going to do!!! Thank you again for all of the suggestions. I really appreciate it.
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So, I have been staying up nights reading various discipline and parenting books and then employing the strategies with DS.

Unfortunately, 3.75 year old DS appears to be employing the same strategies.

DS from Love and Logic: "Mama, you have a choice. One choice, I watch Scooby-Doo. Another choice, I whine and whine. What do you choose?"

DS from Positive Parenting and positive reinforcement: "This! This zoo trip (outing/activity/treat). I like it so much. I am so HAPPY! You are best and sweetest mommy."

DS from 1, 2, 3: "This is warning. Mommy do you want to time-out. It will be time out for you if you do not play trains now."

I could go on. I have calls into child development centers and two parent coaches and we are going through their long intake processes. Until I find this parent coach, how exactly does one handle this? I try to tell DS that Mommies and Daddies give choices and time-outs. I am just freaked here that I don't seem to be even a half-step ahead of DS anymore . . . I don't want him growing up in a chaotic, unstructured home where he isn't secure that his parents are responsible and so he is taking on things himself.

[maestramommy]

:hysterical: I'm sorry! I don't mean to laugh, but your DS is such a hoot! I don't think he's really taking things upon himself. It's just that he (imo) sees your discipline strategies as the way you and Dh get what you want from him, so he's just imitating to get what he wants from you.

The other day I had a standoff with Laurel because she put her foot on the table during dinner. I pushed her chair away from the table, and refused to bring her back until she put both her feet down and promised to stop that behavior. I normally sit with the kids during dinner even if I don't eat with them. I had my foot up on my chair. Suddenly, I hear, "Mommy, mommy, put your foot down, put your foot down." I turn to her and she has this big smile on her face. Little rascal! But I said, "Oh! you're right! Thank you!" When I told Dh later he howled with laughter.

[justlearning]

Your DS sounds precocious and from what you've just shared here, it sounds like he's merely imitating you rather than trying to really have authority over you.

So I wouldn't get frustrated or seem flustered by what he says but rather calmly show him that you're still smarter and the one in charge. For example:

DS from Love and Logic: "Mama, you have a choice. One choice, I watch Scooby-Doo. Another choice, I whine and whine. What do you choose?"

Response: I have already told you that you can't watch Scooby-Doo right now. And you know that if you whine about something, that you lose privileges (say specifically what the consequence would be). So right now I'm definitely not going to choose to let you watch Scooby-Doo. So if you choose to whine and whine, you already know the consequences (e.g., not getting to watch any TV the next day also or whatever else). And you will also need to go whine by yourself in your room because this area here is a peaceful area and no whining is allowed here.

DS from Positive Parenting and positive reinforcement: "This! This zoo trip (outing/activity/treat). I like it so much. I am so HAPPY! You are best and sweetest mommy."

Response: Thank you. I had a great time too and appreciate how nicely you behaved when..."

DS from 1, 2, 3: "This is warning. Mommy do you want to time-out. It will be time out for you if you do not play trains now."

Response: Sometimes Mommy does need a time-out. For example, sometimes I get cranky and need to go take a little time in my room to change my attitude. But Mommy is the one who decides when time-outs happen. I'd be happy to play trains with you now (or later) but only if you ask nicely by saying "Mommy, will you please play trains with me?"

[WolfpackMom]

Your DS sounds precocious and from what you've just shared here, it sounds like he's merely imitating you rather than trying to really have authority over you.

So I wouldn't get frustrated or seem flustered by what he says but rather calmly show him that you're still smarter and the one in charge. For example:

DS from Love and Logic: "Mama, you have a choice. One choice, I watch Scooby-Doo. Another choice, I whine and whine. What do you choose?"

Response: I have already told you that you can't watch Scooby-Doo right now. And you know that if you whine about something, that you lose privileges (say specifically what the consequence would be). So right now I'm definitely not going to choose to let you watch Scooby-Doo. So if you choose to whine and whine, you already know the consequences (e.g., not getting to watch any TV the next day also or whatever else). And you will also need to go whine by yourself in your room because this area here is a peaceful area and no whining is allowed here.

DS from Positive Parenting and positive reinforcement: "This! This zoo trip (outing/activity/treat). I like it so much. I am so HAPPY! You are best and sweetest mommy."

Response: Thank you, Honey. I had a great time too and appreciate how nicely you behaved when..."

DS from 1, 2, 3: "This is warning. Mommy do you want to time-out. It will be time out for you if you do not play trains now."

Response: Honey, sometimes Mommy does need a time-out. For example, sometimes I get cranky and need to go take a little time in my room to change my attitude. But Mommy is the one who decides when time-outs happen. I'd be happy to play trains with you now (or later) but only if you ask nicely by saying "Mommy, will you please play trains with me?"

:applause: Great advice!

[lalasmama]

DS from Love and Logic: "Mama, you have a choice. One choice, I watch Scooby-Doo. Another choice, I whine and whine. What do you choose?"

DS from Positive Parenting and positive reinforcement: "This! This zoo trip (outing/activity/treat). I like it so much. I am so HAPPY! You are best and sweetest mommy."

DS from 1, 2, 3: "This is warning. Mommy do you want to time-out. It will be time out for you if you do not play trains now."

Love and Logic would say that you reply with something like "DS, if you choose to whine, you may go to your room to whine. Whining hurts my ears, and cannot be done out here." FWIW, L&L is SOOOOO much easier to institute when you've been to one of their workshops. I did the workshop then read the book, and it worked SOOOOO well, because I'd already seen the strategies modeled for me.

Like a PP noted, DS has seen that it's effective when applied to him, and so he is trying to see if it is effective when applied to you.

My only suggestion is a complete L&L strategy.... Make sure he's getting a million choices throughout his day. The more choices he's getting (no matter how insignificant!) the more likely he is to listen when a choice isn't an option.

[jse107]

Ah, welcome to 4. Sounds perfectly normal to me (both his reaction and yours). Yes, I often find that I'm barely ahead of the kids!

[Seitvonzu]

my slightly younger DD does this all the time.. i view it as "trying out" different types of speech (in this case -- "powerful" speech...she'd like control/power and these are words that we use in situations of authority). it is alternately amusing and frustrating. i try to remember that she is THREE and i'm the one in charge and she relies on me for that even when she is trying to be in control. i do NOT think my three year old is "one step ahead" of me even when i AM thinking "gosh, what a smartypants."

my 3 year old also uses voices/pitch changes/idioms/inflections....i try to see the bossy disciplinarian as yet another speech role lu is "putting on." good luck-- it can be frustrating, but i assure you your 3 year old is NOT a better parent than you can be ;)

[brittone2]

My kids have all experimented with this. I wouldn't read too much into it. I'd just script back the appropriate response.

If he wants to play trains, say to him, "DS, if you want to ask mommy to play trains, say 'mommy, please play trains with me.'" or whatever floats your boat. It will probably be helpful in peer interaction as well.

I'd reinterpret his "demands" and teach him how to make a polite request (via scripting), and let him know the answer won't always be yes.

[ThreeofUs]

I laugh like crazy and then explain the difference between parents and children, the different roles each has, and why *I* can so those things (as I discharge my responsibility) and how DS1 can give me choices appropriately.

It takes a lot of explaining when you have a smart little one!

[JustMe]

My dd did this all the time at your ds' age and to date has a sticker chart in her room for me (although I stopped using sticker charts with her years ago). I told her consistently that I am the mom and she is the kid, and that it is my job to make rules to keep us all safe, teach her things she needs to know, and get things done. I have told her (when she was younger) that she cannot put me in time out, is not in charge of my choices, etc. I really felt I needed to be very clear with her about this and not sugar coat it by "letting" her do parts of the above at times or making a game out of it. I really felt like she was genuinely confused and needed strong clarification on why I need to treat her differently than she treats me. (I know some people don't believe in doing things this way, but I do). Another thing I did when she got a little older was to make a picture list of what she is in charge of and what I am in charge of. That helped a lot. Dd now is very clear that I am the mom, I need to make certain decisions, etc...but she still enjoys pretending I have a sticker chart. She has one for her brother too even though I make it clear that I am the mom and she does not get to make those kind of decisions about him.

[egoldber]

I told her consistently that I am the mom and she is the kid, and that it is my job to make rules to keep us all safe, teach her things she needs to know, and get things done. I have told her (when she was younger) that she cannot put me in time out, is not in charge of my choices, etc. I really felt I needed to be very clear with her about this and not sugar coat it by "letting" her do parts of the above at times or making a game out of it. I really felt like she was genuinely confused and needed strong clarification on why I need to treat her differently than she treats me.

:yeahthat:

Although it is amusing, I would try to keep that amusement private. I think when kids do this, it is their way of exploring boundaries and limits. With these super aware kids, they sometimes need these boundaries even more, because they often feel like they are responsible for too much. I try to be VERY explicit with what is their responsibility and what is mine. And when I get "that's not fair!" I say well, "I am the parent and this is my job not yours. When YOU are a parent, you get to set the rules for your kids."

[crl]

DS has tried to put me in time out a few times. I laugh hysterically and say "Really? I can go to my room and be all by myself for 40 (or however old I am) minutes? Yeah!". And then I start to go and he reneges, darn the luck!:hysterical:

Catherine

[niccig]

I try to be VERY explicit with what is their responsibility and what is mine. And when I get "that's not fair!" I say well, "I am the parent and this is my job not yours. When YOU are a parent, you get to set the rules for your kids."

I do this too. I've also been doing it when DS doesn't want to do something. Eg. DH and I wanted to go bike riding at the beach. DS said "No, I don't want to go". We went and DS was complaining as we got in the car, and I told him that he doesn't get to decide what the family does. Yes, he does got a lot of choices, but he's not the parent so therefore can't tell us what we will be doing.

DS has also been replying with a "No, I'll do this...." when I ask him to do something. He gets the same response. He is not the parent and doesn't get to decide what he does and does not do.

[ladysoapmaker]

Your son is a hoot. Sounds like you've made quite the impression with him. :hysterical:

now that most of my kids are older I've used the phrase "Parenthood is a benevolent dictatorship."

But, boy when they were younger and currently with DD#2, she is a character, staying one step a head of them is hard work.

Jen

[deborah_r]

Ugh, I am so there with my 4 year old. I realized we must have quite often said "If you don't do x, then you will not do y", because when I don't let him do something, he makes statements like "If you don't let me have the pop-tart, I'm not going to eat the cereal." Or his worst ones lately, "if you don't let me do that, I'm going to hit you/throw this/spank you." Of those three, we have probably told him before he would get a spank, but not the other things. He just gets mad lately and decides he will break something/throw something/kick something. Driving me nuts.

[ShanaMama]

:yeahthat:

Although it is amusing, I would try to keep that amusement private. I think when kids do this, it is their way of exploring boundaries and limits. With these super aware kids, they sometimes need these boundaries even more, because they often feel like they are responsible for too much. I try to be VERY explicit with what is their responsibility and what is mine. And when I get "that's not fair!" I say well, "I am the parent and this is my job not yours. When YOU are a parent, you get to set the rules for your kids."

I agree. I think justlearning had good responses as well. I occasionally say to my children (when they are being too bossy or specifically when interfering in my discipline of a sibling) 'Are you the boss? No. I am the Mommy & that means I'm in charge.' As rude as it sounds it's actually quite comforting to the little clever mischief maker that there is a line in the sand & they will not be able to cross it.
In addition, when my 6 yo threatens me (if you don't let me do x I won't do y) I ignore the content of the sentence & calmly state 'You don't threaten Mommy. If you want something ask nicely.'
Depending on the context, you can respond to DS with giggles & show him how amusing he is being if he's trying to get a laugh. But if he's really trying to control you (aka employ your techniques to get what he wants) then I think you need to show it doesn't work that way.

[niccig]

Although it is amusing, I would try to keep that amusement private. I think when kids do this, it is their way of exploring boundaries and limits. With these super aware kids, they sometimes need these boundaries even more, because they often feel like they are responsible for too much.

I was thinking about this more, and it reminded me of a friend's son. I babysat him a lot when he was 4-8 years old. He's a teenager now. His parents were divorced and his Dad encouraged him to speak him mind, negotiate, and thought it was amusing that the 4 year old could come out with a funny comment in reply to an adult.

Problem was when he started school, he was in the principal's office repeatedly for arguing with the teacher over some direction the teacher gave. It drove my friend nuts that his dad wouldn't enforce boundaries on what kids can do/decide/say and what is the adult responsibility. His Dad kept doing it until he became a teacher and had to deal with kids like his son.

I thought of this as occasionally I have had to tell DS "She is your teacher and gets to decide x and you don't get to argue/negotiate" I don't like saying "I'm the parent and I said so.." as I hated it when my mother did it, but now I understand why. My DS needs to know what is appropriate for him as the child and what is the adult's responsibility. Most of the time he gets it, but occasionally he wants to cross over and thinks he can tell everyone else what to do. I also don't want to get into an argument over everything, so I'll often say "DS, I've given you my answer and I'm not discussing it further." DS is just like his Dad and if doesn't think your reasoning is logical to him, he'll keep arguing. Annoys me no end when DH does this to me, as sometimes my reasoning is emotional or I just don't like something and I'm allowed to have that opinion. I won't have DS getting into the habit either, so I'll tell him "You don't have to agree with my reasoning DS, but you will do x."

I agree with the benevolent dictatorship comment about parenting.

[bubbaray]

Although it is amusing, I would try to keep that amusement private. I think when kids do this, it is their way of exploring boundaries and limits. With these super aware kids, they sometimes need these boundaries even more, because they often feel like they are responsible for too much. I try to be VERY explicit with what is their responsibility and what is mine. And when I get "that's not fair!" I say well, "I am the parent and this is my job not yours. When YOU are a parent, you get to set the rules for your kids."


:yeahthat:

DD#2 is in this stage and sometimes it is VERY hard not to :hysterical: at her comments. But, if we do, it just eggs her on, KWIM?

[kijip]

I work very hard to contain my laughter to private. I pretty much just second everything Beth said. This posts reminds me of a time when I was driving and Toby was waving a pool noodle around in the back seat. I told him if it came into the front seat one more time, I was taking it away. Inevitably, I took it away. Toby responded by loudly declaring something like "you give that back to me right now Mama or else I will take your driving chair away and you won't be able to drive for 2 weeks!!!". He was three or so. It took a lot to not just laugh and laugh. :D

[JTsMom]

DS1 just went through a phase a little while back where he'd tell me, "You'll get the fake crying!" :hysterical: Seriously, if you guys can listen to stuff like that and not laugh, you're better women than I! He even turned it into a chant for a while, "You'll get the fake crying! You'll get the fake crying! You'll get the fake crying!" It's probably been 6 months, and I still have to laugh just typing it.

[jent]

:yeahthat:

Although it is amusing, I would try to keep that amusement private. I think when kids do this, it is their way of exploring boundaries and limits. With these super aware kids, they sometimes need these boundaries even more, because they often feel like they are responsible for too much. I try to be VERY explicit with what is their responsibility and what is mine. And when I get "that's not fair!" I say well, "I am the parent and this is my job not yours. When YOU are a parent, you get to set the rules for your kids."
:yeahthat:

At least, that's what I am trying to do.

Glad to hear we are not alone! DD does this to DH & me all the time.

Though I guess we should do positive reinforcement more, b/c I have to say I've never heard DD do that.

[sste]

Thanks and update in post 1. :)

[justlearning]

Thank you so much everyone! Justlearning you need to change your board name to TotalExpert or the like ...So, mixed report so far. I firmly but kindly told DS this morning in response to a conflict that I was the parent and I made the rules so that everyone can be safe and healthy and learn. And he immediately said, "There is rule against what you just said!" So, I kindly and firmly reiterated that I was the parent. And he said "Families help each other. So, families make rules TOGETHER!" And I said no mommies and daddies make the rules.
And he said I was being kicked out of the family then!

First of all, thanks for your comment about my username. :) When I joined this board more than 8 years ago, I was completely clueless when it came to anything having to do with kids and parenting so I was truly just learning. But I'm still on these boards because I keep learning from the great moms on here.

To address what you shared here about your experience this morning, it sounds like you handled it well in making the role of parents versus kids clear. But what would you think of later tonight saying something like, "You know, I was thinking about what you said this morning and I would like for our family to sit down tonight and make some rules together." This could then take the direction of writing down rules that you all feel are important to the family (no hitting, speaking to each other with respect, etc.). You could then define what it means to treat a sibling with respect, what it means to treat parents with respect, etc. Write these rules down with pictures next to each one (let him figure out what the picture should be or even draw it himself), so you can then hang it on your fridge and refer to it whenever he breaks one of your family rules.

I think it's also OK to empathize with his underlying feelings when he expresses things like this. For example, "I know that it can be tough to be 3 years old. You are getting smarter every day and you feel like you should get to tell us what to do now. But Mommy and Daddy are still much older than you (you could even make a joke here, asking him if he's whatever your age is) and we are the ones who are responsible for working to pay for the house that we live in, the food that you eat, the clothes that you wear, etc. And we're also responsible for deciding what's best for you. But I would like to hear your good ideas about what you would like to play or (whatever), but the only way that I will consider them is if you ask them in a respectful way. (Then give specific examples of how he could try to give you input in a respectful way--for our family, that means that my boys need to ask it in the form of "May I please...?") I may not always be able to say yes, though, so you will also need to be respectful then."

And to help him feel like he's getting a say in what goes on, do you think there would be ways that you could start asking him for more input on what you do. This could even be planned as a one-night-a-week activity or something like that so he understands that part of the time he doesn't get much say but he does at other times. For example, maybe one night a week, he could choose what meal you have for dinner and/or what activity you do as a family after dinner.

Of course, some moms may disagree with my suggested approach and it's possible that it could backfire--that by giving him an inch, he'll want to take a mile. But I think it could also work the other way and allow him to feel more like the big guy that he wants to be and know how to respectfully give input rather than always trying to fight you for some control.

[niccig]

I like justlearning's suggestions. If he keeps arguing, you can say "DS, I've given you my decision and I am not discussing this further." Otherwise you can get in this long protracted argument, and they think they can argue back against everything you decide, which is very time consuming.

And it is how the world works. Your boss wants you to do something, you disagree and give your reasons why, but if your boss still decides this is how it is to be done, then you have to do it.