Need a reality check, commiseration, something, on afternoon school

[maestramommy]

I think I mentioned in other threads that Dora is in afternoon K and Arwyn is afternoon pre-k this year. They are in school from 11:30-2:20. Arwyn gets off her bus at 2:30, and Dora at 2:40. Dora started school last Wed, and Arwyn this past Tues.

To say that afternoon school has been a huge challenge does not even come close to the nightmare that has been my life for the last 2 weeks. Dora and Arwyn really still need their nap. I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous to a lot of you, but I have seen firsthand this summer what happens when they do not nap for more than 2 days. The first two days of school Arwyn didn't want to nap. She ended up having serial meltdowns over random nothings for the rest of the afternoon. Dora didn't nap either and all she wanted to do was watch TV. I had told her once school started she couldn't watch TV except on Fridays because she might be busy with homework. But I can see it in their eyes as soon as they get off the bus that they are beyond tired, and don't have the brain power to do much else, much less be cooperative. meanwhile Dora is demanding I read her a book, play a game with her, feed her another snack. And all this noise wakes Laurel up from HER nap, and she can be more demanding than the other two put together when she puts her mind to it. Meanwhile dinner is going unmade and the clock is ticking. Arwyn has already been SO challenging this entire summer since she turned 4, and having 2.5 hours of school after the day is already half gone has probably reduced her to running on fumes. After Wed I told them they absolutely had to take a nap as soon as they got off the bus. If they didn't nap they wouldn't get to do anything else, swim, play computer game, watch TV, have a snack (they already have snack at school!). Dora knows when I mean it so she has complied pretty readily. Arwyn is much harder. yesterday she did take a nap, but she was so hard to rouse and I was literally pulling her out of bed at 5:30 to eat dinner, which she pecked at for 5 minutes, then went back up and lay in her crib till Dh got home at 6.

We talked about it for a long time last night. Dh thinks I need to start being a squeaky wheel, and let the teachers know what's going on, ask them how the kids are doing when they are at school, but let them know we are concerned that our kids are just not physically mature enough, up to attending afternoon school, and if things don't change in the next several weeks we are going to request they be moved to the morning.

I think Dora originally was going to be in morning K, but because Arwyn's pre-k was in the afternoon, they moved her so their schedules would match. The 4s in the morning are typically kids with multiple disabilities, and there is a long waiting list for typical kids. Arwyn is on an IEP, but for only one therapy, so most kids like her attend afternoon.

This morning I sent off an email to both teachers, telling them of our concerns, asking if they could let me know in the next week how the girls are doing. But I refrained from putting in the ultimatum about changing the class. I want to see how the teachers respond first.

Okay this is a very long post, sorry! But if you went through anything like this, what ended up happening? How long did it take for your DC to adjust? Did they ever? Did you do anything that made things easier?

[jjjo1112]

I feel your pain!! My son is starting afternoon kindergarden next week and my daughter is starting afternoon pre-k. They both still nap on a regular basis, DD naps 95% of the time and DS about 80% of the time. When they miss their naps, the evenings are horrible- quick tempers and even quicker meltdowns. Over the summer, if they missed their naps due to a beach trip or other day trip they are in bed for the night by 6:30pm. My plan is to try and do any errands/outdoor play in the morning before school, then in the afternoon try and stay low key. The kids do have various activities in the early evening hours, but when possible we will be doing early dinner and early bedtimes. We are going to start at 7pm and move them back accordingly until we get to a good time for them. I also plan to continue having the kids nap on the weekend if possible and my pre-k DD will nap on the days she isn't in school. I'm hoping that over time they will adjust and that maybe the will begin to sleep a little later in the morning to compensate for missing the naps. I know at my school, it wouldn't be possible to get them both switched into the morning sessions, so we will be adjusting things the best we can. Good luck!!

ETA- I meant that we will be starting with a bedtime of 7pm and moving it earlier as needed, not later :)

[daisymommy]

I honestly cannot imagine which smart adults idea it was to create afternoon school programs for kids. My kids are awful in the afternoon! Absolute bears to deal with. I cannot imagine the hell that my life (or their teacher's) would be if they were in afternoon school at that age. I think for many kids, it's just an unrealistic expectation to put them through that.

Is there any chance you can pull them out and switch?

[Bens Momma]

First off I want to offer you some hugs :hug::hug: I know how hard a change in routine can be for some kids and it can really affect the whole family's dynamic. I went through something similar when DS1 went from 1/2 day to full day of school. He was exhausted mentally and physically and just plain miserable for awhile. Even though things got slightly better I would say that it really took him close to a month and a half to adjust (sorry!) Research shows that it takes at least 21 days to create a new habit or get use to a new routine for children, and for some children it might take a little longer. I think it's positive that you've contacted the teacher, keep the lines of communication open so she knows what you are seeing and experiencing at home. In the meantime I would try to move bedtime back a little at night and really concentrate on a relaxing bedtime routine. I would insist on naptime everyday as soon as they get home from school, and for Arwyn, hopefully she falls asleep but at the very least a quiet time where she's resting. Consistancy and creating/following this new routine will be key. I know my kids get unbearable when they need sleep and you'd think they'd collapse in bed at night when they're exhausted, but sometimes it works the opposite when they are over-tired and they really resist going to sleep. So sorry you're going through this but I do think that there is hope that this can all work, it's just going to take time. If you truly feel that they don't improve over time, then I would insist that they be changed to morning.

Hope this helps!
Momma to 2 ACTIVE DS :bouncy::bouncy:
and the third musketeer arriving in early Fall!

PS-I may need help and a reminder to follow my own advice when this baby arrives and throws the whole routine and dynamic out the window!

[kedss]

Just wanted to offer hugs- it may be that the girls are fine at school, then crash because they are 'home'. When my ds started K, he went from 8 - 3 and he was great at school and about 10 minutes after he got home he would blow up. He needed to let steam off, then he would either fall asleep or be better. See what the teachers say- it will take adjusting for all of you-

[robinsmommy]

I think that afternoon/full day programs can be great for kids who are either very mature physically and mentally, or red-shirted a bit. DD1 missed our state cut-off by a couple weeks, and the full day K was great for her, she really had been ready the year before. But for kids on the other end of the program, yeah, they really, really don't work.

I would be the squeaky wheel in as polite a way as possible (which sounds like what you did). I really don't know if working with the bedtime hours would help at all - some kids really just need that downtime mid-day to absorb and reset.

No matter what, transitions to no-naps are hard, whether it is by choice or forced by a situation like yours.

I would also express concerns about the difficulties the girls will have learning when they are tired and at their worst, and the difficulties the teachers will probably have dealing with them. And even if they are saving all their worst behavior for you (which is not that uncommon), they will not learn as well if things are hard for everybody at home because they are overtired after school.

I might also toss in a comment something about this being the start of their education, and that getting off to a rocky start doesn't help instill a love of learning. I'm assuming that this school will have your kids for years?

I really hope they can fix things for you. Or at the very least, make allowances for their behavior and help to ease the transition somehow.

ETA: DD1 still needs some quiet time in her room to unwind after school or a long playdate, and she is nearly 9. At least she knows it and we can all allow for it.

[SpaceGal]

I was in your situation with afternoon pre-k and kindy. Granted it was only my oldest in school but I would make them all go down all at around 3pm. They'd typically wake up around 5.

For us, it worked out since my kids tend to go to bed later 9-10 on school nights. So when DS1 got home from pre-k/kindy he ate a snack and would go nap right away. And he did. My other two would be napping already if not they would all go down at the same time. Sometimes I would have to sit with them and then go about my business and get stuff done around the house.

I'm not sure if it's feasible to say let them nap and then let them stay up a little longer and assuming they will "sleep in". My kids didn't wake up until 8:30-9am usually. It might take a but to get adjusted to and since it's new for both of them they maybe get accustomed to say not napping and sleeping earlier OR napping when they get in. My family has always been a later schedule family...we wake, eat, nap, and sleep later than most families. Granted this means less alone time with DH but it works for us all as a whole.

The other thing I want to mention...but around here most kids don't nap anymore...like they give up their naps around 2 maybe 3 years of age. I think a lot of people are extremely shocked when I tell them I make my 6.5, 4.5 and 2.5 yo all nap.

Next week when the boys start 1st grade and AM pre-k, it will be harder for us...meaning we have to wake up early and DS1 will have fully day school, DS2 will have to get up early too and we'll be napping around 1pm instead or our 2/3pm. I've been told how exhausting full day school is for the first few weeks, so I imagine DS1 will be TIRED when he gets home.

I hope things improve and that you find a solution. I don't really have advice, but maybe the school can accommodate or maybe the girls will get adjusted and less grumpy.

[niccig]

DS's pre-K was full day and it had a rest time in the afternoon. He slept every day, so I believe when you say they still need a nap. He didn't have the rest period in K, full-day, but I'm super strict about bedtime during the school year so he gets about 10.5-11 hours sleeps a night.

I think wait and see what the school says and maybe give it a few more weeks to adjust before deciding if you'll swap or not.

[maestramommy]

Thanks for all the feedback! It's nice to know this isn't a unique problem :p

I did post this on my local moms yahoo group, and two specific pieces of feedback jumped out. 1) All of their kids seem to have this problem, even if they're older, and even if they don't have a summer schedule. Suddenly going back to school is a big change, and often they hold it together just for the teacher, then totally fall apart when they get home.
2) Don't issue an ultimatum. They don't like it, and it never ends well. So I'm glad I refrained. On reflection, I thought doing it now would be premature, and would make me look a little irrational.

Arwyn's teacher got back to me, and she said actually she's been doing great! Remembered all the routines, participates in all the circle time activities, and is talking a lot. So I guess I will draw comfort from the fact that she is at least thriving there, and try to come up with some coping strategies when she comes home. For now the mandatory nap seems to be helping. The teacher did say let's keep an eye on things and revisit in a few weeks if it doesn't seem to be getting better. But she did say many parents have been telling her their kids are going through the same exact thing. Dora's teacher thanked me for the email, which made me feel better because I've heard a few doubtful things about her from other moms.

Now if we can just get Arwyn to 5yo and remain intact.........

[maestramommy]

I honestly cannot imagine which smart adults idea it was to create afternoon school programs for kids. My kids are awful in the afternoon! Absolute bears to deal with. I cannot imagine the hell that my life (or their teacher's) would be if they were in afternoon school at that age. I think for many kids, it's just an unrealistic expectation to put them through that.


One thing I know for sure, that decision has nothing to do with what's best for learning! When I was complaining to my mom last night, she said,"WHAT?? They have afternoon K?? What are they thinking?? You had to move to the sticks where they do stuff like this!!" I had to tell her it's been going on for years, even where we used to live:loveeyes:

[hillview]

So sorry that sounds lousy.

My boys are newly 4 and 6. They go to school 8-3 (have not started yet) and I am dreading the first few weeks. IME it takes a few weeks (4?) to get a schedule that works. DS1 goes to bed (lights out asleep) by 8 and DS2 goes to bed at 6:30 (asleep btwn 645 and 7). They wake up at 6.

They are usually ok at school and molten at home for a while. SORRY! It does stink
/hillary

[KrisM]

I do think it takes a few weeks to completely adjust to school. Afternoon is hard for many kids. DD had pm preschool last year and was tired after it for a month or so, and she had long since given up naps.

I am thankful for all day kindergarten. The afternoon is primarily recess, lunch, free play, recess, go home. All the learning is in the morning. I think it makes 1st grade easier since they've done the all day transition already and can better function in the afternoons then.

[chays]

What time do they go to bed at night? My kids stopped napping between 2 and 3 years old, but they were sleeping 12-13 hours at night. DS1 used to sleep 7-7, DD slept 7-8 and ds2 sleeps 7-8, but still naps 1-3. I think when they sleep enough at night they need less daytime sleep. I did do quiet time after school when they were younger-- maybe get them to bed a little earlier and eventually they will be more rested? My kids usually wake up at the same time every day -- so putting them to bed earlier just gave them more sleep.

Good luck!
cheryl

[maestramommy]

What time do they go to bed at night? My kids stopped napping between 2 and 3 years old, but they were sleeping 12-13 hours at night. DS1 used to sleep 7-7, DD slept 7-8 and ds2 sleeps 7-8, but still naps 1-3. I think when they sleep enough at night they need less daytime sleep. I did do quiet time after school when they were younger-- maybe get them to bed a little earlier and eventually they will be more rested? My kids usually wake up at the same time every day -- so putting them to bed earlier just gave them more sleep.

Good luck!
cheryl

the kids go down before 7:30 every night. That hasn't changed in something like 3 years. They usually get up around 7. When they nap Arwyn tends to lay awake chatting for a long time. So theoretically if I took away the nap she would fall asleep almost right away. BUT that means she is such a mess for the afternoon, through dinner, playing with Dh and the bedtime routine. If she gets a 2 hour+ nap she's much better.

[AnnieW625]

If it makes you feel better 29 yrs. ago when I was in kindergarten I was suppose to be in the afternoon kindergarten class with the cool young teacher, but my mom called the school and had me switched to morning because I was still taking a nap daily in kindergarten. I survived. I would definitely call the school and see if they can make a switch.

DD's kindergarten class is from 8 to 2:30. They still have a morning snack time, lunch time, and then after lunch it's just chill time. Their teacher even admitted that she will never expect much out of 5 yr. olds in the afternoon so they usually do music, art, and story time in the afternoon. This is the second year they have had full day kindergarten, and it must have worked last year because they are offering it again. Today was a half day and DD1 went to daycare and took a nap. DD1 was ready for bed tonight by 7:30, but since it was Friday we let her stay up a bit longer and was out by 8:30. Prior to starting school she was fine with an 8:30 bedtime.