Wwyd -- wwyt?

[hillview]

In May my DH told me that he had gone skiing for the day on a spur of the moment trip with a colleague
Post here
http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=394668&highlight=colleague

We saw a therapist and he swore nothing happened. I talked with my therapist 1:1 afterwards and she said something could have happened and to keep an eye on him but she thought things seemed ok (sorry this is a brief summary).

So I've checking emails from time to time and nothing funny. They work together all the time. Saturday they talked 3 times on the phone -- I was not in the room. He does have a big deal at work going on so I get that they might need to talk. I reminded him that he needed to maintain boundaries with her (this is something I asked him to do -- they travel for work from time to time and I told him that I expected not drinks at the bar with her etc). I told him that I understood if they had to talk on the weekend but as he had described it, it sounded like she more wanted to 'chat' with him vs really talk about work.

So today they talked 3 times on the phone (we were not together for part of today).

ETA and they have emailed like 5 times -- all work junk lot's of back and forth.
ETA again for clarity

So ...

WWYD? WWYThink?

Your advise is appreciated

[BeachBum]

I think you need to meet the colleague and get to know her. Talking outside of work is not something that would make me feel uncomfortable...but it's probably because I know the woman that DH works with.
They work closely together, and I'm glad they have a good relationship. They do text and talk outside of work about non work stuff. She is DH's subordinate.

Could you invite her (and date/ spouse) over for dinner? out for drinks? Keep it casual...you guys work together and he speaks of you often...I wanted to meet you?


I think unless there is some other issue in your relationship you've got to just trust him. Make a joke of it for reassurance if you need to... But don't create a problem where there isn't one.
(obviously I have no idea if there is really a problem or not).

[hillview]

I think you need to meet the colleague and get to know her. Talking outside of work is not something that would make me feel uncomfortable...but it's probably because I know the woman that DH works with.
They work closely together, and I'm glad they have a good relationship. They do text and talk outside of work about non work stuff. She is DH's subordinate.

Could you invite her (and date/ spouse) over for dinner? out for drinks? Keep it casual...you guys work together and he speaks of you often...I wanted to meet you?


I think unless there is some other issue in your relationship you've got to just trust him. Make a joke of it for reassurance if you need to... But don't create a problem where there isn't one.
(obviously I have no idea if there is really a problem or not).

I do know her (we've met on several occasions). She is kind of loopy/crazy/hyperactive with a lot of issues. She and her DH came to our wedding.

Thanks for your words of wisdom!

[Globetrotter]

That is a hard one. You want to have trust, but.. at the same time he did mention the ski trip to you, and I did find that situation kind of odd, so you are smart to be on guard. At the same time, coworkers do sometimes talk outside of work so I'm not sure where to draw the line. Since dh implied it's not all work related.. that would make me wonder.

I would definitely be on guard, though, since there is some history here. :hug:

[TwinFoxes]

What was your DH's response to you reminding him about boundaries?

Are you normally a jealous person? If not, I'd definitely listen to that inner voice. If you are, that doesn't mean you shouldn't listen, but you might want to try to see things from another perspective.

I think her reaction of "something could have happened" was bizarre. What does that mean? Who or what stopped "something" from happening? I would have definitely asked more questions to figure out what her deal is.

What a stressful situation. I'm sorry. :hug:

[Corie]

I talked with her 1:1 afterwards and she said something could have happened and to keep an eye on him but she thought things seemed ok (sorry this is a brief summary).





I don't like her comment that "something could have happened".

WTH does this mean? Did she try something and he stopped her?
Or did your DH try something and she stopped him?
I definitely would have pressed further on this issue.


Edited to add: Totally ignore what I said above! I misread your post. I thought I read that
you talked to the female colleague and she said that! Sorry!!!

[KrisM]

I assume it was the therapist who said "something could have happened" and probably she doesn't actually know, so pressing on it wouldn't get much.

I think I would just continue to monitor and see if another repeat of multiple calls happens again. I would have to give my trust that he's being honest about it still unless I had other concerns to go along with the phone calls.

[hillview]

That is a hard one. You want to have trust, but.. at the same time he did mention the ski trip to you, and I did find that situation kind of odd, so you are smart to be on guard. At the same time, coworkers do sometimes talk outside of work so I'm not sure where to draw the line. Since dh implied it's not all work related.. that would make me wonder.

I would definitely be on guard, though, since there is some history here. :hug:

Yeah this is sort of where I am. Unsure. And it sucks.


What was your DH's response to you reminding him about boundaries?

Are you normally a jealous person? If not, I'd definitely listen to that inner voice. If you are, that doesn't mean you shouldn't listen, but you might want to try to see things from another perspective.

I think her reaction of "something could have happened" was bizarre. What does that mean? Who or what stopped "something" from happening? I would have definitely asked more questions to figure out what her deal is.

What a stressful situation. I'm sorry. :hug:
DH just gave me a hug and said something like ok. He didn't have a killer response IMO. I am not a jealous person. We both work a ton with the opposite sex. It wouldn't have crossed my mind (I am one of those people who vote "never would happen to me" in the polls here). Except it did after the ski thing. And now I feel like I am caught in this keeping an eye on things state. It goes away for a while and then I notice something and then I get all wrapped around the axle if that make sense.

Sorry I should be clear my therapist said something could have happened after she saw us together.

I don't like her comment that "something could have happened".

WTH does this mean? Did she try something and he stopped her?
Or did your DH try something and she stopped him?
I definitely would have pressed further on this issue.
Sorry I should be clear my therapist said something could have happened after she saw us together.

[wellyes]

I may be naive but I would not freak out. If the colleague were male, it would not be a big deal at all. If you trust him, trust him.

[hillview]

I assume it was the therapist who said "something could have happened" and probably she doesn't actually know, so pressing on it wouldn't get much.

I think I would just continue to monitor and see if another repeat of multiple calls happens again. I would have to give my trust that he's being honest about it still unless I had other concerns to go along with the phone calls.

Yes it was my therapist. And I think you are right -- not sure what else I can do. I HATE this. Thanks for your response!

[KpbS]

Go with your gut. It seems like more is going on :( :hug:

[bubbaray]

Having BTDT (in different circumstances) at some point, you just have to let it go. I just can not constantly let my mind go there, so I have decided to just ignore the issue. I'm not sure its the *right* response, but in my situation, it keeps me sane.

[TwinFoxes]

Sorry I should be clear my therapist said something could have happened after she saw us together.

Sorry I should be clear my therapist said something could have happened after she saw us together.

Oops, so sorry, the post said "she" before, and I totally thought you meant his coworker.

[Green_Tea]

I may be naive but I would not freak out. If the colleague were male, it would not be a big deal at all. If you trust him, trust him.

:yeahthat:

It sounds like there's lots of work stuff going on. The emails you have seen have all been above board. It doesn't sound like there's a good reason to be worried about the their phone calls at this point.

I assume that choosing to work or not work with this woman is not within his control. At some point you need to make the decision to trust him, or ask him to find another job.

[infomama]

DH just gave me a hug and said something like ok. He didn't have a killer response IMO.
Hard to say without knowing your DH but that response would have left me feeling doubtful that he has set/is maintaining a boundary with her. Just keep your radar up.

[California]

Someone on here recommended marriagebuilders.com on an earlier thread. I don't suspect my DH of an affair, but wanted to do something proactive and reading the site's been very informative. The page on "How affairs start" is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html I think the hardest part must be knowing that you can't be 100% sure. I'd like to think I am, but you just never know!

[sste]

Hillview, so sorry to hear of these stresses!

Well, this is just me but I could not rest until I found out the truth from the ski trip. I would need my spouse to come 100% clean - - and that would be so important to me that I would be prepared to potentially deal with hearing some very painful things. Not sure it would be worth it for every woman but for me I would need to know. I would not be able to go forward in a relationship of trust until everything was on the table. In your situation it is not at all irrational to be second-guessing seemingly innocent things because there are lies between the two of you. IMO secrets and lies are poison to marriages . . .

[nmosur]

I would just trust my gut instincts in this situation. And I would talk to the co-worker honestly and tell her how I felt. But then, thats me.

[randomkid]

To me, it sounds like you need to continue going to a therapist and work this out with her. I don't think you can do it alone since you haven't been able to do so thus far. It seems like you have just scratched the surface with the counselor and need a few more sessions. If you are still going, then try to relax and give it time, knowing that you are doing something that will bring you to a resolution.

I understand that feeling of needing to keep an eye on things - not with DH, but with an Ex that I had in college. He used to tell me stuff that happened with girls coming onto him and he would tell me that he stopped the girl. This made me trust him which was obviously the reason he did it. Turns out that he really didn't stop these girls, but was cheating on me with them. It was his way of throwing me off. I'm not saying that your DH is doing this, but if you feel uncomfortable, then I think you need to keep pursuing the truth, whatever that may be. It totally sucks to feel like you can't trust and that you have to have your radar up all the time. That is really no way to have a relationship and it can be detrimental if you don't get to the bottom of it. Your DH very well may be telling you everything, but if you don't trust and believe him completely, then that will affect your relationship even if he is being completely faithful to you.

[AnnieW625]

Having BTDT (in different circumstances) at some point, you just have to let it go. I just can not constantly let my mind go there, so I have decided to just ignore the issue. I'm not sure its the *right* response, but in my situation, it keeps me sane.

:yeahthat:

Over the last 12 yrs. I have been in the work force most of my closest co workers have been male, and some of them are really good looking. All of them and myself were either dating or married. DH has never had an issue with it, and I have never heard any flack about it from their spouses either; one did want to know why my cell phone was in her BF's car one weekend (we'd gone to lunch and it had fallen out of my purse), but other than that no other questions. Now I didn't chat with them on the phone on the weekends or in the evenings but I have been friends with most of them on social networking sites and such.

[niccig]

I think the doubt and suspicions are eating away at you and your marriage - that is no way to live.

Can you come clean to DH, tell him of your doubts and that if the doubt is NOT resolved, it will seriously hurt your marriage. You need to know exactly what happened, and he needs to inform you of all interaction - eg. I talked to Y today, it was about work. Better that you know they talked because he told you and not finding it in call records etc. Tell him that he needs to keep it professional and no chatting about social lives. If you find he's been lying or not informing you of any interactions, it will just fuel the mistrust IYKWIM. He has to treat this woman differently from other work colleagues.

A friend's DH did cheat 8 years ago, and she still talks about the doubt and mistrust...I couldn't live that way. You need to know if you can trust him or not. My DH knows I have trust issues, once it's gone, it is gone and he also knows he will never recover from what I will do to him :icon_twisted: I'm not a forgiving person.

[AshleyAnn]

Im probably going to say something you dont want to hear -

My husband had three emotional affairs with three women (one turned sexual months after it began) before I finally got sick of the game and called it quits. All three started much like you described here. Lots of contact, typically neutral in nature, then it started to get a bit more friendly and the conversations got more and more intimate and he withdrew from our marriage. He never really hid the affairs from me, they were friends for so long before things turned that I really didn't worry until things were totally out of control. He never really planned to cheat or went out with the intent to find these women they all came into his life naturally and it went there without him even realizing it. The ski trip throws up huge red flags for me, too friendly for coworkers IMO. I would be honest with him about the need for clear boundries. It doesn't sound like he is having an affair but it could head that way. If his relationship with her is truely casual he should be willing to agree to boundries and be open to hearing your concerns.

[sweetsue98]

The ski trip is a red flag for me. You have to trust your gut instinct. If it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't.

[ha98ed14]

Someone on here recommended marriagebuilders.com on an earlier thread. I don't suspect my DH of an affair, but wanted to do something proactive and reading the site's been very informative. The page on "How affairs start" is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html I think the hardest part must be knowing that you can't be 100% sure. I'd like to think I am, but you just never know!

I'm sorry, but this site is a load of horse sh!t! Read about the woman with the feelings for her H's friend, and it is the woman's responsibility to tell her husband about her feelings for his friend so they can fix their marriage. Then read the story about the woman (referred to as B.D.) whose husband had an affair with her best friend. From that scenario, I give you the following:

B.D. learned an important lesson about human nature. Both her friend and her husband are wired to fall in love with whoever they spend the most enjoyable time with, and the fact that her husband fell in love with her friend simply means that she had deposited enough love units to trigger his feeling of romantic love toward her. He was having more fun with her friend than he was having with her. The rest was history.

I would imagine that B.D.'s second child came between she and her husband recreationally, and her friend took her place as his favorite leisure-time companion. To get him back, she must become his best friend again. His relationship with this other woman will probably fall apart eventually, as they almost always do, and he will come back to her. At that point in time, she and her husband should never see her childhood friend again, she should try to welcome him with open arms and then try to re-create the relationship that they once had, when they were both in love with each other.

Excuse me while I :barf:.

*HOW* can it be the B.D.'s responsibility to fix the problem by becoming her H's best friend again after he is done boning her BFF? In both of these scenarios it's the woman's job to fix it? Give me a break!

OP, if you think he's having an affair, stock away money in a run-away fund. When you have enough to leave, confront him. Best case scenario, you have a down payment for a new vacation home.

[Globetrotter]

I would say go with your gut. You clearly aren't comfortable with his answers and there are red flags. IME with a couple of friends who've gone through this, there were signs, h's said nothing is going on and they trusted them, then boom.. they were forced to confess when there was indisputable evidence :(

I'm not saying this is happening here. It's really hard when it's a coworker - there is no way for him to avoid her unless he quits his job! He CAN choose to keep it to strictly work, though.

I would either come clean to him and tell him how uncomfortable you feel or go through the therapist (maybe a different one?). Did you ask WHY she thought that something may have happened? It sounds so ambiguous.

[bubbaray]

Here's the thing. It doesn't really matter if something *did* happen on the ski trip or not. OP's DH admitted that the relationship with the co-wkr was more than just work (as I recall it, no time to read through the prior link). Emotional infidelity is as damaging to a marriage as physical infidelity. It severs the trust between the husband and wife.

OP, if *you* are working on rebuilding trust in your marriage, IME you have two choices. You can say "OK, past is past, let's move forward from a place of trust" or you can say "I don't really, honestly, trust you and I'm going to watch you like a hawk to make sure you don't do anything again". For me at least, there was no middle ground. I just can't live my life the second way. The second way is my professional nature and I can't live my personal life like that.

There is no right or wrong in how you cope with this. I didn't find a counsellor particularly helpful, but that might have been a "fit" issue.

[ha98ed14]

OP, if *you* are working on rebuilding trust in your marriage, IME you have two choices. You can say "OK, past is past, let's move forward from a place of trust" or you can say "I don't really, honestly, trust you and I'm going to watch you like a hawk to make sure you don't do anything again". For me at least, there was no middle ground. I just can't live my life the second way. The second way is my professional nature and I can't live my personal life like that.

There is no right or wrong in how you cope with this. I didn't find a counsellor particularly helpful, but that might have been a "fit" issue.

Perhaps it's true that there is no right or wrong way to handle this, but I think there is a way that leads towards self respect and a way that leads away from it. In your PP, you said you chose to ignore a similar issue because it keeps you sane. I don't get that. How can you ignore something that is an indicator that the (supposedly) most intimate person in your life does not care at all how his actions make you feel? It is such a sign of disrespect. I think the only reason women stay in marriages where their H's are having affairs is because they are trapped financially. I love DH, and consider myself mostly happily married, but there are lines you do not cross because there is no crossing back. And I always have money in my own name.

[bubbaray]

I think the only reason women stay in marriages where their H's are having affairs is because they are trapped financially.


That is not true. There are many reasons a woman might choose to stay in a marriage if her husband cheats (and visa versa).

Nobody is perfect. No marriage is perfect, no wife is perfect, no husband is perfect. $h!t happens. Everyone deals with things differently. If you don't *get* how I deal with my situation, what-ev-er. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes, you don't even get a vote.

I only gave my example because I relate first-hand to the OPs situation. I'm not looking for validation or approval. I'm comfortable with how I've chosen to deal with the situation.

[ha98ed14]

That is not true. There are many reasons a woman might choose to stay in a marriage if her husband cheats (and visa versa).

Nobody is perfect. No marriage is perfect, no wife is perfect, no husband is perfect. $h!t happens. Everyone deals with things differently. If you don't *get* how I deal with my situation, what-ev-er. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes, you don't even get a vote.

I only gave my example because I relate first-hand to the OPs situation. I'm not looking for validation or approval. I'm comfortable with how I've chosen to deal with the situation.

You certainly don't need anyone's approval, of course. I realize what I said sounded very judgmental of your specific situation. You're right. I have no clue what you went through and no right to an opinion. Everyone has a right to make their own decisions, but *if* the affair did happen and OP is feeling like her self respect is on the line, financial dependence/ needing to preserve one's lifestyle is not enough of a reason to stay. If she has no doubts about her self respect even in the face of an affair, then staying in the marriage will probably be a lot easier.

[catpagmo]

Trust your gut. It's been my experience that if things don't make sense, then something's up.

My XH had a 2 year affair with the girl who reported to him at work. I had no idea. I trusted him 100%. He always told me "it's just work stuff". Turned out, they had had a baby together, and I had no clue until the baby was 9 mos. old. I'm not saying your DH is having an affair, BUT if there's anything that isn't adding up, then there's a reason it isn't adding up. Hugs to you.

[citymama]

I didn't see the original post (since deleted) in your earlier thread, so I don't have the full back ground. But if your DHs relationship/time spent with his female colleague away from work is upsetting you, it's reasonable for you to ask him to cease and desist. How hard can that be for him? If I asked my DH to do that, and he refused, I'd be mighty angry and suspicious. Why not flat out ask him to put the pause button on it bc it's making you uncomfortable?

I am so, so sorry you are going through this, and I hope it's settled for once and for all soon so you can breathe easy.

[jacksmomtobe]

Sorry you are going through this. Honestly I think you need to talk with DH and tell him if he has anything to get clean about now is the time. Not knowing what occurred on the ski trip, etc is going to eat you up. Even if the response is something you don't want to hear at least you know. Wondering will drive you crazy. But if you can get him to be honest with you then you know what you are dealing with and can make a plan for moving forward instead of feeling stuck. Also depending on his response you can reiterate the need he has to have for clear boundaries with this particular co-worker. He needs to get that this is negatively effecting your marriage. I truly believe that male/female co-workers can be friends but there are appropriate boundaries and if one of the people is crossing the boundary then the friendship needs to end.

Hope you finds some answers soon!

[gatorsmom]

That is not true. There are many reasons a woman might choose to stay in a marriage if her husband cheats (and visa versa).

Nobody is perfect. No marriage is perfect, no wife is perfect, no husband is perfect. .
:yeahthat: Everyone deals with situations differently. As my liberal friends like to remind me, NOTHING is black and white. Relationships and situations can he very complicated and what might seem right to one person, isn't for another.

OP, I'm sorry this is happening to you. No real good advice. Just wanted to add some hugs.

[Calmegja2]

This will not be a popular reply- but this is a boundary issue- and not about trust. Your husband should not be having personal conversations with a member of the opposite sex, because over time- it shifts the boundaries. Emotional needs start to get met by the other person.

Some really great people, who have been deserving of trust- find themselves down a slippery slope into an affair. They don't mean to, they don't intend to- and every step along the way, they rationalize it. The person in the affair thinks they haven't done anything wrong at first- their spouse should trust them. But everyone is wired for an affair, in the right circumstances.

My husband had a longterm affair. It started much the same as you just described. I would do anything I can to protect another person from the pain of an affair or the devastation it wreaks on your marriage and your children.

If your spidey sense is tingling- protect your marriage and your family. I would probably even go a bit further and use a keylogger- and see what he's been up to. Might be nothing. Might be something.

[Calmegja2]

I'm sorry, but this site is a load of horse sh!t! Read about the woman with the feelings for her H's friend, and it is the woman's responsibility to tell her husband about her feelings for his friend so they can fix their marriage. Then read the story about the woman (referred to as B.D.) whose husband had an affair with her best friend. From that scenario, I give you the following:

B.D. learned an important lesson about human nature. Both her friend and her husband are wired to fall in love with whoever they spend the most enjoyable time with, and the fact that her husband fell in love with her friend simply means that she had deposited enough love units to trigger his feeling of romantic love toward her. He was having more fun with her friend than he was having with her. The rest was history.

I would imagine that B.D.'s second child came between she and her husband recreationally, and her friend took her place as his favorite leisure-time companion. To get him back, she must become his best friend again. His relationship with this other woman will probably fall apart eventually, as they almost always do, and he will come back to her. At that point in time, she and her husband should never see her childhood friend again, she should try to welcome him with open arms and then try to re-create the relationship that they once had, when they were both in love with each other.

Excuse me while I :barf:.

*HOW* can it be the B.D.'s responsibility to fix the problem by becoming her H's best friend again after he is done boning her BFF? In both of these scenarios it's the woman's job to fix it? Give me a break!

OP, if you think he's having an affair, stock away money in a run-away fund. When you have enough to leave, confront him. Best case scenario, you have a down payment for a new vacation home.

That site, taken as a whole, saved my marriage. It is hard to get a clear picture of how it all works, from just those few links. both spouses have to recover together. And at first? The betrayed spouse has to work harder. It's unfair. But you can complain about it being unfair, or you can hang in there and make it better than it ever was before- and believe me- the cheater comes around. the balance swings. Your choice.

It isn't about blaming the betrayed spouse. It's about repairing and having a new marriage, and understanding the psychology of what happens in an affair. The choice to have an affair is 110% the cheating spouse's fault. No excuses. At all.

But the choice to recover it- has to involve both partners. It may suck and seem unfair. And sometimes? It really sucks to work so hard to save your marriage and family when you didn't do anything wrong. It is frustrating to have your life forever changed by someone else's actions- actions you didn't get a say in.

But life? is sometimes like that. And only you can decide if it is worth it to you to work it out.

But as someone who has been dealing with saving my marriage and family, and has fought harder than you will ever know to do so, I would appreciate it if you refrained from calling it horse hockey. Because this is one of those situations where you really don't know what you would do or what it feels like unless it happened to you. And it's a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

[mommy111]

Hill, first off :grouphug: I am so sorry this is happening to you (and I don't mean cheating, I mean living in doubt). It sounds like you have a worthwhile marriage and it sounds like your DH is on a slippery slope, he could slide down or he could stop at this point. I think it would be really helpful if you could do things to stop the slide....work on rebuilding the relationship, set boundaries (no work related phone calls outside of work...not necessarily 'you don't have permission to talk to this person'). I would also be uncomfortable,, quite frankly, with them travelling together alone. I mean, she has a husband, what is she doing on a ski trip with your husband without her own husband and with yours??????

[bubbaray]

both spouses have to recover together. And at first? The betrayed spouse has to work harder. It's unfair. But you can complain about it being unfair, or you can hang in there and make it better than it ever was before- and believe me- the cheater comes around. the balance swings. Your choice.

It isn't about blaming the betrayed spouse. It's about repairing and having a new marriage, and understanding the psychology of what happens in an affair. The choice to have an affair is 110% the cheating spouse's fault. No excuses. At all.

But the choice to recover it- has to involve both partners. It may suck and seem unfair. And sometimes? It really sucks to work so hard to save your marriage and family when you didn't do anything wrong. It is frustrating to have your life forever changed by someone else's actions- actions you didn't get a say in.

But life? is sometimes like that. And only you can decide if it is worth it to you to work it out.

But as someone who has been dealing with saving my marriage and family, and has fought harder than you will ever know to do so, I would appreciate it if you refrained from calling it horse hockey. Because this is one of those situations where you really don't know what you would do or what it feels like unless it happened to you. And it's a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

A huge :yeahthat: to all of this. Really, we need a he!! yeah smilie.

In my prior post, I said I chose to ignore things. I did NOT ignore the affair (we've done counselling and DH has done quite a bit on his own). What I have chosen to ignore are those feelings of doubt. Those are mine. DH has "done" his bit (counselling, breaking off contact, etc). *I* had to choose how I wanted to live *my* life. Did I want to life my life from a place of doubt and mistrust (however valid those feelings may be)? Or did I want to re-build the marriage?

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I would also be uncomfortable,, quite frankly, with them travelling together alone. I mean, she has a husband, what is she doing on a ski trip with your husband without her own husband and with yours??????

:yeahthat:

i think out of all things, the ski trip would bother me the most. not bc it seems like anything happened (probably not) but as other people said, it's a slippery slope and to me if it would signal possible trouble up ahead if it this kind of thing continues. i agree, why didn't she go with her husband, why your DH? and the fact that it wasn't a planned trip, it was a spur-of-the-moment thing would be the part that would bother me. i guess if my DH wanted to go on a trip with a female coworker (say, they both liked to ski and i didn't) i'd think it would be a different thing if it was planned an he told/asked me first.

the phone calls would sort of bother me, but if it's about work then i guess it's hard to put that to end (my DH has a blackberry and gets phone calls outside of work hours all the time).

[hillview]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your input here. Melissa I think you are right -- I need to decide to move past this. And yet somehow keep vigilant without being insane.

Some pp mentioned financial stability. I have 100% personal financial stability (great career etc) and if I ever left DH we'd be finacially fine. However I LOVE my DH and don't want to leave him -- aside from what I've posted we have a great relationship. And I get that is a big aside for some. We both trust each other a lot (we both travel for work -- I've been approached by male co-workers looking for some fun and I get that happens BUT I would never wander). The ski thing put a bit of a damper on my trust and I am trying really hard to get it back -- it is my focus if that makes sense, I want to move past it. And yet I don't want to be an idiot. I do tell DH the "right things" about boundaries and about safe guarding our relationship.

Thanks all for posting your thoughts!

[ha98ed14]

That site, taken as a whole, saved my marriage. It is hard to get a clear picture of how it all works, from just those few links. both spouses have to recover together. And at first? The betrayed spouse has to work harder. It's unfair. But you can complain about it being unfair, or you can hang in there and make it better than it ever was before- and believe me- the cheater comes around. the balance swings. Your choice.

It isn't about blaming the betrayed spouse. It's about repairing and having a new marriage, and understanding the psychology of what happens in an affair. The choice to have an affair is 110% the cheating spouse's fault. No excuses. At all.

But the choice to recover it- has to involve both partners. It may suck and seem unfair. And sometimes? It really sucks to work so hard to save your marriage and family when you didn't do anything wrong. It is frustrating to have your life forever changed by someone else's actions- actions you didn't get a say in.

But life? is sometimes like that. And only you can decide if it is worth it to you to work it out.

But as someone who has been dealing with saving my marriage and family, and has fought harder than you will ever know to do so, I would appreciate it if you refrained from calling it horse hockey. Because this is one of those situations where you really don't know what you would do or what it feels like unless it happened to you. And it's a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

If this website saved a marriage that both partners wanted to save, then that's great. I have not walked this mile, so this is all out of my hat, but as you say, you would have to decide if it is worth it to work it out. Imagining myself in this kind of situation, where I was the betrayed spouse, I am pretty sure my answer would be no, not worth it. For me, it would come down to self respect. Call it pride, if you want. I value my own sense of self over my marriage; not over H's feelings or his sense of himself, but over the state of being married and living together in the same house with any DC.

If you decided to do the work to save your marriage, it sounds like your own sense of yourself was not in question, or if it was, you were able to work through it. A sincere congratulations for deciding what you wanted and doing everything possible to get it.

[Calmegja2]

If this website saved a marriage that both partners wanted to save, then that's great. I have not walked this mile, so this is all out of my hat, but as you say, you would have to decide if it is worth it to work it out. Imagining myself in this kind of situation, where I was the betrayed spouse, I am pretty sure my answer would be no, not worth it. For me, it would come down to self respect. Call it pride, if you want. I value my own sense of self over my marriage; not over H's feelings or his sense of himself, but over the state of being married and living together in the same house with any DC.

If you decided to do the work to save your marriage, it sounds like your own sense of yourself was not in question, or if it was, you were able to work through it. A sincere congratulations for deciding what you wanted and doing everything possible to get it.

This is actually insulting. Though- to be fair, I probably would have said just what you did before it happened to me. Then I realized never say never, and that it is unwise and foolish to predict your own future behavior in situations you haven't encountered yet.

I hope you don't ever say this in person to someone you know who has encountered this situation. And trust me- people in your life that you know have run into these situations, and chosen not to share them with you. Infidelity is very common- and statements like yours above? Are hurtful.

[mommy111]

That site, taken as a whole, saved my marriage. It is hard to get a clear picture of how it all works, from just those few links. both spouses have to recover together. And at first? The betrayed spouse has to work harder. It's unfair. But you can complain about it being unfair, or you can hang in there and make it better than it ever was before- and believe me- the cheater comes around. the balance swings. Your choice.

It isn't about blaming the betrayed spouse. It's about repairing and having a new marriage, and understanding the psychology of what happens in an affair. The choice to have an affair is 110% the cheating spouse's fault. No excuses. At all.

But the choice to recover it- has to involve both partners. It may suck and seem unfair. And sometimes? It really sucks to work so hard to save your marriage and family when you didn't do anything wrong. It is frustrating to have your life forever changed by someone else's actions- actions you didn't get a say in.

But life? is sometimes like that. And only you can decide if it is worth it to you to work it out.

But as someone who has been dealing with saving my marriage and family, and has fought harder than you will ever know to do so, I would appreciate it if you refrained from calling it horse hockey. Because this is one of those situations where you really don't know what you would do or what it feels like unless it happened to you. And it's a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
I don't think ha98ed14 meant to be insulting at all, I just think she is coming from a different perspective and adding the perspective of how her own marriage and sense of self interact. What she meant may not have come across in reading the way she meant it in reality.
I also have to say I agree 100% with what you have written in that post especially the bolded part (and that part is beautifully stated and really sums it all up). I mean, it sucks to swallow up your anger and resentment when its not your fault, but it really is a choice between that and saving a marriage that is worth saving.

[Calmegja2]

I don't think ha98ed14 meant to be insulting at all, I just think she is coming from a different perspective and adding the perspective of how her own marriage and sense of self interact. What she meant may not have come across in reading the way she meant it in reality.
I also have to say I agree 100% with what you have written in that post especially the bolded part (and that part is beautifully stated and really sums it all up). I mean, it sucks to swallow up your anger and resentment when its not your fault, but it really is a choice between that and saving a marriage that is worth saving.

I don't for one second believe that she meant to be insulting. I don't.

However- there are different expressions of pride and self worth- and in some situations- it is actually harder to stay than it is to leave. So I bristle, and probably overly so, because I have dealt with infidelity, and belong to a community of people, as well as having close personal friends who have dealt with this- and an undercurrent tying someone else's actions to your own sense of pride or self worth is hard to take. Especially when you've walked that mile, and you've learned the hard way that sweeping statements like that just don't get you anywhere.

But I do apologize for coming down harshly.

[ha98ed14]

This is actually insulting. Though- to be fair, I probably would have said just what you did before it happened to me. Then I realized never say never, and that it is unwise and foolish to predict your own future behavior in situations you haven't encountered yet.

I hope you don't ever say this in person to someone you know who has encountered this situation. And trust me- people in your life that you know have run into these situations, and chosen not to share them with you. Infidelity is very common- and statements like yours above? Are hurtful.

Could you please explain to me why what I said is insulting and hurtful to you? I was trying to make "I statements" about what I imagine for myself. I did not intend to tell your story because as you say, I have not BTDT.

Would you not agree that someone who has chosen to stay in a marriage recovering from a spouse's infidelity *has* found a way to separate their own sense of self (self worth) from the cheating spouse and his or her actions? How else could they stay? That's what I was trying to say and I don't see how that is insulting. If anything, I think it speaks to the courage it takes to stay; the betrayed spouse has to do the work to get past the betrayal in order to see the marriage as worth saving. Accomplishing that is a real victory and supports exactly what you said, that at times it is more work to stay than to throw in the towel.

FWIW, I grew up in a family where my father had two affairs and then divorced my mother. My mom wanted to go to counseling save the marriage, but he pressed for divorce. My mom felt very victimized and betrayed, but on this side of things, she realized that it actually benefited her to go it alone even with two little kids in tow. She deserved better, and the best revenge is a live well lived. My mom is far from being bitter. She's worked (in therapy) to let her anger go because she knows it would only eat at her. She has a full life and lots of positive relationships in her life. I know that my ideas about what I would do in that situation are very much informed by my mom's experience and mine growing up in that situation. I see divorce as an equally viable option that can be done in a healthy way. Whether or not it is easier to stay v. leave is only something that the betrayed spouse can decide for him/herself, as is the question of whether or not they want to do the work to take on the harder of the two. My point, and this is not directed at OP specifically, is that I think it would be a mistake for me to stay just because it is harder to leave. ("Harder" may mean financially or emotionally or both.)

[Calmegja2]

I am going to pass on that, H8.

I have explained it, and advised against statements like what you made.

Read again what I wrote, and think about it- and place yourself in the shoes of a person who stayed, against your self worth comments, and I think you will see.

:)

[Globetrotter]

It's hard to know what you will do until confronted with it. When I think of my friends, the one who stayed thought they had a solid marriage to begin with and a very remorseful spouse, not to mention three kids.

The other one has an a$$hold of an ex who told her she needs to deal with it (seriously, and even SHE game him a chance at first until he turned out to have a child with the other woman). She left him after that, thankfully.

The two situations are quite different, IMO, though I have a problem with the one who is staying because he lied for a long time about it, lives away from home most of the time for work, and something doesn't seem right. However, it's not my right to judge because I'm not living through it.

OP, it sounds like you have a solid marriage aside from this nagging doubt - definitely worth working on, IMO.

[citymama]

Could you please explain to me why what I said is insulting and hurtful to you?


I'm pretty sure it was this:


Imagining myself in this kind of situation, where I was the betrayed spouse, I am pretty sure my answer would be no, not worth it. For me, it would come down to self respect. Call it pride, if you want. I value my own sense of self over my marriage; not over H's feelings or his sense of himself, but over the state of being married and living together in the same house with any DC.

If you decided to do the work to save your marriage, it sounds like your own sense of yourself was not in question, or if it was, you were able to work through it.

It could be read as "I have a sense of self/self-respect. It sounds like that's not the case for you." Not entering into the debate, but this is what could be interpreted as an outsider to the conversation.

[ha98ed14]

I am going to pass on that, H8.

I have explained it, and advised against statements like what you made.

Read again what I wrote, and think about it- and place yourself in the shoes of a person who stayed, against your self worth comments, and I think you will see.

:)

This sounds very didactic. I did read what you wrote, and still don't see it. If you choose to end the conversation, that is fine, but please do not do so under the guise that you have some nugget of truth that will somehow be revealed to be through the passage of time.

ETA: I'm assuming this is comment is to me and not HUI8. I'm ha98...

[3isEnough]

Hillary - I don't know if you're still interested in receiving input, but I'm in the camp of trusting your instincts. Before marriage I dated a fair amount (mostly long-ish term boyfriends). Two different boyfriends in particular always made me slightly uneasy. I often wondered if they were cheating but they always had great "alibis" and stories to fill in where they had been. But my instincts told me otherwise. Being distrustful of them, I did watch closely and snooped behind the scenes. Sometimes things just didn't add up (e.g., I'd find a receipt for lunch when he told me a VERY convincing story that he was elsewhere for work), and I couldn't make sense of it. Turns out, they were both cheating and I should have trusted my instincts all along.

I really haven't had those kinds of thoughts with other boyfriends or DH. And I feel strongly that if DH was forming a friendship at work that crossed boundaries, he should respect my feelings and our marriage and modify the friendship accordingly. FWIW, I work in a male-dominated industry and mostly have very good looking male friends, a few of whom are my ex-boyfriends. So by no means do I think husbands can't have female friends and wives can't have guy friends, quite the opposite. But if my DH was uncomfortable with a guy friend of mine or thought he had other intentions, I would view it as my obligation to curtail that and ensure my DH is comfortable with things going forward.

I say trust your instincts and do more investigating. Sorry :(

[bubbaray]

It could be read as "I have a sense of self/self-respect. It sounds like that's not the case for you." Not entering into the debate, but this is what could be interpreted as an outsider to the conversation.


:yeahthat:

That is EXACTLY how I took ha98ed14's original response to my post. Very judgmental and sanctimonious. She said that she hasn't been in the situation. So, she does not know how she would react. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my self-respect, my financial situation or anything she listed. The tone of her posts on this thread were very condescending.

JMHO.

[Calmegja2]

This sounds very didactic. I did read what you wrote, and still don't see it. If you choose to end the conversation, that is fine, but please do not do so under the guise that you have some nugget of truth that will somehow be revealed to be through the passage of time.

ETA: I'm assuming this is comment is to me and not HUI8. I'm ha98...

It was to you. My apologies for not writing out your entire username . I assumed you would know I was speaking to you. :)

[Calmegja2]

:yeahthat:

That is EXACTLY how I took ha98ed14's original response to my post. Very judgmental and sanctimonious. She said that she hasn't been in the situation. So, she do not know how she would react. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my self-respect, my financial situation or anything you listed. The tone of her posts on this thread were very condescending.

JMHO.

Exactly.

[California]

I was the one who mentioned Marriagebuilders.com on this thread.

For the original poster, you may find reading the site helpful. I do not think my DH has cheated on me, but when I read a previous thread (that has since been deleted for the privacy of the poster) I started thinking about the possibility a lot.

In a marriage so much of one's life is based on the partnership-- the shared home, finances, and especially the kids. How to protect that? How to know the spouse is 100% faithful? These thoughts can be consuming. It sounds like you are caught in that cycle of suspicion and nagging doubts. What I liked about Marriage Builders is that there's info on there on how to be proactive-- build up the marriage, make agreements on boundaries, be totally honest with each other.

There's advice on how to make sure your DH knows you love him by expressing it in the ways that mean the most to him. It's not that different from the "love languages" idea.

For a marriage damaged by cheating this would be very hard work. I haven't experienced that and can't say how I'd feel about the website if I had.

For an already happy marriage, it's a lot of fun! My DH has been pleasantly surprised by the fact that I am making sure to spend quality time with him -- not just minutes but hours-- every single day.

[wellyes]

:yeahthat:

That is EXACTLY how I took ha98ed14's original response to my post. Very judgmental and sanctimonious. She said that she hasn't been in the situation. So, she does not know how she would react. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my self-respect, my financial situation or anything she listed. The tone of her posts on this thread were very condescending.

JMHO.
She did say she is the child of a parent who cheated, and has witnessed the long-term consequences of the fallout of the divorce that resulted. That is a deeply personal experience with infidelity.

Regarding "following your instincts"- I don't know - when it comes to marriage and male/female friendship, there is such a range of comfort levels. I know women who would not want their husbands to ever socialize with a woman outside of her (the wife's) company. If the guy does against her wishes, that is a problem in terms of respecting her wishes, but IMO it doesn't mean he is unfaithful. But that can be a blurry line for some people.

[Calmegja2]

Being a child dealing with infidelity is quite different than dealing with it in your own marriage.

[ha98ed14]

Being a child dealing with infidelity is quite different than dealing with it in your own marriage.

I'm sure that it is, but at the end of the day suffering is suffering. And suffering at the hands of people who are supposed to love and cherish you is the worst kind of pain, be it from a spouse or parent or even one's own child. I don't know where kijip is these days, but she has shared stories of terrible suffering as a child because of her parents neglect and abuse. She has also turned that pain into a career of helping people and raising her own family differently, and even going on to having a loving relationship with her mom as an adult. She is a light coming from a sea of darkness.

If one can rebuild their marital relationship; if children of divorce can have a stable marriage themselves; if a child of abuse can stop the cycle with their own children; if the victim of domestic violence can find her own voice to say, "No, I deserve better"; they are all stories of finding love in a relationship where the hurt was destructive. Everyone has their story and compare one to another and assess whose pain is greater doesn't accomplish anything. There are no merit badges for suffering. I think what counts is what you do with the experience going forward.

I've offended you and Melissa up and down this thread. I never meant to. I sincerely commend you for rebuilding your marriage, for finding your light, a better relationship with your H, in the darkness of the infidelity. I know for me to process my own childhood pain of my father's affairs and my parents' divorce took (and continues to take) a lot of effort. I have to work at the forgiveness, to look for the light in the darkness. I do not doubt that yours is also a hard won victory.

[longtallsally05]

In May my DH told me that he had gone skiing for the day on a spur of the moment trip with a colleague...

We saw a therapist and he swore nothing happened. I talked with my therapist 1:1 afterwards and she said something could have happened and to keep an eye on him but she thought things seemed ok (sorry this is a brief summary)...

I told him that I understood if they had to talk on the weekend but as he had described it, it sounded like she more wanted to 'chat' with him vs really talk about work...

So today they talked 3 times on the phone (we were not together for part of today)...

ETA and they have emailed like 5 times -- all work junk lot's of back and forth...

WWYD? WWYThink?

Your advise is appreciated

I remember the original story because it instantly made me think of a situation that occurred in the life of a member of my family. In that situation, the XH had a co-worker with whom he was friendly and who even came to their house with her daughter for dinner. Turned out XH was having an affair with the friendly co-worker. XH left his pregnant wife, he is now living with the friendly co-worker & her daughter, and now they are expecting a child of their own. It was a very acrimonious divorce and is still a bad situation.

I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. I've not BTDT, but I hope you continue to listen to your inner voice and that you take care to protect yourself & your health if you feel that your DH is not maintaining appropriate boundaries with his friend/co-worker. Best wishes.