Need advice re DS2 behavior in preschool - heelllppp!

[ThreeofUs]

I need your advice. DS2 is acting out like a wild man in preschool. He's "that kid" in the preschool class, even with us in the room trying to mediate his behavior. We're probably pulling him from school; his behavior is bad enough that it's disruptive to the class and taking teacher attention from the other kids.

This is a very good preschool; we had DS1 there and we trust the teachers implicitly. Also, we are right there in the classroom with DS2. I’m the unofficial “classroom volunteer”, which gives us a 1:3 ratio, with two very experienced teachers in a nice classroom with great kids.

Here are some scenes from today.
-Today, he came in from playing outside, went to their "meeting rug" with the other kids, and started to throw pieces from a puzzle that was left out on the rug. Across the classroom. When the teacher picked him up to get them, he grabbed them from the floor and threw them again.
-This is a Jewish preschool, and they had a table set out for Shabbat. He took the candlesticks and teased a kid into chasing him, at the end of which they ended up fighting and he hit her with the candlesticks.
-He took the tzedakah (alms) box and hid in his cubby. When a little kid tried to talk to him about it, he charged out and hit the kid in the stomach with the box.


Here are some mediating factors:
-He’s just about to turn 3 in a class full of kids about to turn 4.
-He’s never been in a preschool situation before; every other kid there has been - and 7/9 of them in the same school.
-He’s coming around socially (lining up well to go out, playing well on the playground, participating in group, music, Hebrew, gym, art, etc.).


And here is what I need your help with:
I want to give him whatever guidance he needs to help him grow out of this.

He doesn't act this way at home, except to a very minor extent. We use 1-2(-3) Magic. For general misbehavior, we give him a warning/1 count, then a 2 count, at which point he stops (almost always on 2), we talk about the rule, make him say the rule, clean up or make up for his behavior and go on. We use time outs when we need to for completely unacceptable behaviors (hitting, kicking, throwing, etc.).

But he's acting like he was raised in a barn in the class, and I just have no idea what to do for him - and no idea what he’s going through that’s generating this behavior. He doesn’t appear to be sad or angry. I have no idea what’s going on.

I’m confused and pulling my hair out. Please help me help DS2.

[bubbaray]

I bet he is acting this way b/c you are there. I would ask the staff if you could NOT volunteer for a while/week and see if he improves.

FWIW, my children are completely apes around me. As soon as I leave, they are angels. It drives me nuts, however the upside is that I have ZERO compulsion to volunteer in their schools -- no guilt about that whatsoever. LOL.

[ThreeofUs]

I bet he is acting this way b/c you are there. I would ask the staff if you could NOT volunteer for a while/week and see if he improves.

FWIW, my children are completely apes around me. As soon as I leave, they are angels. It drives me nuts, however the upside is that I have ZERO compulsion to volunteer in their schools -- no guilt about that whatsoever. LOL.


I sure wish this were the answer. He cries like crazy if we're not there. I would love to be able to leave him, but we tried. No go.

Maybe we could try this again.... He!!, I'll try anything at this point.

[bubbaray]

Would he understand if you asked him which he would prefer -- you stay if his behavior gets better or if you leave him? My DD#2 would get this now, but I don't think she would have at 3. Plus, I'm not sure if tying staying/not staying to his behavior is going to help. It might make his negative behavior worse.

What do the teachers want to do, if anything?

[ThreeofUs]

Would he understand if you asked him which he would prefer -- you stay if his behavior gets better or if you leave him? My DD#2 would get this now, but I don't think she would have at 3. Plus, I'm not sure if tying staying/not staying to his behavior is going to help. It might make his negative behavior worse.

What do the teachers want to do, if anything?


I am not sure he'd get it. I have no idea what it is, except maybe "I don't like school!" The negative behaviors are just ... jaw-dropping. I almost lost my dentures today.

The teachers are willing to work with him. They suggested we give up any other role in the classroom and stick close by his side. But I really don't think this is going to work. I *am* right there, and he's still getting past me. I honestly am afraid he's going to hurt someone.

[maestramommy]

I agree with Melissa it could be because you are there. My kids are extra silly when Dh and I teach Sunday School. Which means I teach alone while Dh rides herd on Dora and Arwyn. Insane, but there it is.

Reading your followup posts, is there any way the teachers would be okay with you just leaving the class, as if you are dropping him off like everyone else's parents? If he's still howling after 10-15 minutes, they could call you on your cell or something.

[sidmand]

I sure wish this were the answer. He cries like crazy if we're not there. I would love to be able to leave him, but we tried. No go.

Maybe we could try this again.... He!!, I'll try anything at this point.

Does he cry the whole time you're not there? Or you don't know because you haven't been able to leave yet? FWIW, DD cries/d horribly when I leave her anywhere new. I mean, head throwing back tantrums and yelling over and over "I want to go home!" And by the time I've reached the end of the driveway (about in hysterical tears) she's stopped. It took me awhile to learn that (and to be able to leave without crying myself!). She even sometimes starts crying again when I come back so that it seems like she's been crying the entire time!

As long as I'm not there she's a perfect angel but if I'm there everything is "Mommy do it" and she is not herself.

[ellies mom]

Does he cry the whole time or just at drop-off? Could you drop him off and stick close by but not in the room to see how it goes? I'd give it some time to see if that got better. My oldest cried at drop off but stopped shortly after. I couldn't volunteer in her classroom either because the moment she saw me, she was right by my side and stopped participating. It was better to make a clean break and leave her in the excellent hands of the staff. I know how hard it can be to leave your crying child. For us, we didn't have a choice. I was in school so she went to the college's program. I left near tears several times. But she adjusted eventually. :hug:

Is there a "young 3's" class for him or just the one?

[sste]

Threeofus, this is kind of funny because my child is an angel in preschool but has def. bursts of being a complete hellion at home! Anyway, I have posted here before that we are going to a pediatric development center and working with behav. psychologists on parent coaching - - their focus in many ways is the situation you describe. The behavior just has to improve, yesterday, for the child to remain in school (or in other cases such as mine to lighten the family stress).

I am still early in but I am going to try to channel our therapist here!!

-Today, he came in from playing outside, went to their "meeting rug" with the other kids, and started to throw pieces from a puzzle that was left out on the rug. Across the classroom. When the teacher picked him up to get them, he grabbed them from the floor and threw them again. POSSIBLE ISSUE WITH TRANSITIONS WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST COMMON AREAS FOR KIDS AND PRESCHOOLERS ESP TO DECOMPENSATE. MUST CONSIDER WHY HE IS DOING THIS - - MAY BE BECAUSE OF ENVIRONMENT CHANGE PLUS MOMENTARY LOW SUPERVISION. THE RESPONSE MIGHT INCLUDE DIRECT ADULT SUPERVISION DURING TRANSITIONS OR IF THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE PRIOR TO THE TRANSITION HAND HIM A LITTLE INDEX CARD WITH A PICTURE OF A YELLOW LIGHT FOR WAITING OR EARS FOR LISTENING. THIS CUES HIM THAT THERE WILL BE SOME DOWNTIME AND HE IS GOING TO NEED TO WAIT OR LISTEN. THIS SOUNDS MORE LIKE WAIT. SOME KIDS ALSO DO VERY WELL WITH A VISUAL TIMER (PURCHASE ONLINE) FOR WHEN THEY NEED TO WAIT OR TO LET THEM SEE WHEN AN ACTIVITY IS ABOUT TO END.

-This is a Jewish preschool, and they had a table set out for Shabbat. He took the candlesticks and teased a kid into chasing him, at the end of which they ended up fighting and he hit her with the candlesticks. PHYSICAL AGGRESSION IS AUTOMATIC TIME-OUT. NO WARNINGS. NO DISCUSSION. THE BIGGEST MISTAKE HIGHLY EDUCATED PARENTS MAKE IS THAT THEY TALK TO MUCH ACC TO MY THERAPISTS. IN THIS SITUATION THE CHILD KNOWS FULL WELL THAT WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG AND LOTS OF TALKING REINFORCES THE CHILD WITH ATTENTION AND SEPARATES FURTHER IN TIME THE ACTION AND THE CONSEQUENCE.
-He took the tzedakah (alms) box and hid in his cubby. When a little kid tried to talk to him about it, he charged out and hit the kid in the stomach with the box. SAME. ZERO TOLERANCE FOR PHYSICAL AGGRESSION. THE PROBLEM IS THOUGH THAT IF TIME OUT IS USED TOO FREQUENTLY IT STOPS WORKING.

THREEOFUS, DOES THE SCHOOL USE A VISUAL SCHEDULE? CAN YOU IMPLEMENT A STICKER REWARD CHART? WHAT ARE YOUR SON'S "REINFORCERS" - - WHAT WILL HE BEHAVE IN ORDER TO GET? ALSO HOW OVERWHELMED DOES YOUR SON SEEM? I ALMOST GET THE IMPRESSION ONCE YOU MENTIONED THE AGE THING THAT HE IS WORRIED ABOUT NOT HOLDING HIS OWN, HIS STUFF GETTING TAKEN AWAY AND SO IS LITERALLY COMING OUT SWINGING!
Sorry for the all caps btw. Good luck!

[Clarity]

I bet he is acting this way b/c you are there. I would ask the staff if you could NOT volunteer for a while/week and see if he improves.

FWIW, my children are completely apes around me. As soon as I leave, they are angels. It drives me nuts, however the upside is that I have ZERO compulsion to volunteer in their schools -- no guilt about that whatsoever. LOL.


Ivy, I read your reply to this but I still think that Melissa may be on to something. How long does he cry when you're not in the room? Can you leave the room on a task and return without him becoming upset? I would start trying to ease out of the room or ease away from him a bit and see if that helps his behavior at all. It's got to be confusing for him to know who is in charge with both momma and teacher in the room. He may be acting out a bit in an attempt to figure this out.

Is the school preschool only or do they also have a daycare? My dd2 moved into a preschool room this year. Our center went multi-age so she has 3-5 year olds in her room now. BUT, she's going to need to do three years of preschool b/c of her birthday and I could have opted to keep her in the childcare room instead. In our case, dd2 has been in care since she was an infant and was ok with the transition.

I would think that your ds2 might benefit from less structured programming while he's learning to be a good citizen of the school. kwim?

I'm not sure I'd pull him totally from the program unless the director/teacher's think that he shouldn't be there though. Hope it gets better soon.

[YouAreTheFocus]

I bet he is acting this way b/c you are there. I would ask the staff if you could NOT volunteer for a while/week and see if he improves.

FWIW, my children are completely apes around me. As soon as I leave, they are angels. It drives me nuts, however the upside is that I have ZERO compulsion to volunteer in their schools -- no guilt about that whatsoever. LOL.

:yeahthat: My son just started a new daycare this fall. He started out ok (no tears) but then suffered a setback, and ended up crying hysterically every day for about a week. And the longer we hung around, the worse it got. We had to just steel ourselves, hand him over, and walk out. Of course, then I'd start crying when I got outside! It was awful.

He has since improved (no more tears) but no way am I going to volunteer anytime soon--he needs time to settle in on his own. He would totally behave differently w/ me there. He tends to show off and act more possessive of items when we are around.

[maestramommy]

Just another note since you said this is DS's first year in school. This is Laurel's first year too. The first week it seems like all the kids were fine with dropoff. This week is when I noticed kids crying. Laurel was howling when I left. But when I peeked in 10 minutes later it was totally quiet. Two moms in the parking lot asked if anyone was crying, and said, "when we left our daughters were hysterical!" So I think it's very normal for kids to cry if this is their first school experience. We were advised to hang around in the parking lot for 10 minutes or so. If the kids were still inconsolable by that time they would call us to come back in. But so far everyone has stopped crying by the expected time, a few minutes!

[bubbaray]

If you are going to go cold turkey -- drop him off, hugs & kisses and run!, I strongly suggest talking to the staff and having a plan. ie., they promise to call you if he cries longer than 5/10/15 minutes (whatever you and they are OK with), if he pukes when he cries, etc.

I did this with both my girls at their first daycare and when they switched daycares and again when DD#1 went to a schoolage program and DD#2 was on her own for the first time. It worked really well. FWIW, all the care-givers (all ECE teachers, its a preschool curriculum and they have a separate preschool elsewhere in the building) assured me they never cried for more than a minute after I left.

IME, sticking around is a bad idea. I stayed and played with DD#2 in her daycare just this week and it was the first time ever. Not b/c I don't want to stay, but b/c I keep dropoff more matter-of-fact.

[Canna]

How long has school been in session? My 3.5 year-old just started pre-school about a week and a half ago. The first SEVERAL weeks of preschool require a lot of adjustment, especially for younger preschoolers like your son is.

I agree with the PPs - the first thing that you need to do is leave the classroom and let the teachers take over. It's their job to help your son transition to preschool. You can talk to him at home about school, but it should really not be your job to be in the classroom so much, PARTICULARLY if things are not going smoothly. At the school my DD attends, parent involvement in the classroom is encouraged and there are almost always parents around, BUT parents are specifically asked not to stay for Meeting or volunteer in the first few weeks of school because everyone is getting used to the routines and becoming cohesive as a class, and having parents around generally is not helpful. Today I said bye-bye and walked out while my daughter was still wearing her backpack and screaming.

Even with my older DD (who is 6) I often see her behavior is much worse when I am around. I occasionally am the volunteer helper at her Girl Scout meetings and I've noticed she tends to be whiney and ill-behaved. I asked the leader if that was typical at meetings and she said, "Not at all!"

Also, it's not clear to me - is your DS in a mixed age class that happens to have a large percentage of older kids, or is he truly in 3s class when he should ideally be in a 2s class (or 4s class when he needs a 3s class)?

[ThreeofUs]

If he's still howling after 10-15 minutes, they could call you on your cell or something.


Yeah, he went into complete hysterics for well over an hour each time we tried this. Not at all like a little crying; just absolutely fell apart and stayed fallen apart.

And DS turns 3 next week, within the cut-off for the class, it's just that everyone else is a little older this time.

[Canna]

Yeah, he went into complete hysterics for well over an hour each time we tried this. Not at all like a little crying; just absolutely fell apart and stayed fallen apart.

And DS turns 3 next week, within the cut-off for the class, it's just that everyone else is a little older this time.

I would expect him to potentially cry for a very long time because so far, he may have learned that crying long enough got you in the classroom every day sticking by his side. It may take a while for the teachers to convince him that you really can not come back and that he'd be better off joining the group having fun with music/gym/Hebrew/etc.

[ThreeofUs]

POSSIBLE ISSUE WITH TRANSITIONS

PHYSICAL AGGRESSION IS AUTOMATIC TIME-OUT. NO WARNINGS. NO DISCUSSION.

THREEOFUS, DOES THE SCHOOL USE A VISUAL SCHEDULE? CAN YOU IMPLEMENT A STICKER REWARD CHART? WHAT ARE YOUR SON'S "REINFORCERS" - - WHAT WILL HE BEHAVE IN ORDER TO GET? ALSO HOW OVERWHELMED DOES YOUR SON SEEM? I ALMOST GET THE IMPRESSION ONCE YOU MENTIONED THE AGE THING THAT HE IS WORRIED ABOUT NOT HOLDING HIS OWN, HIS STUFF GETTING TAKEN AWAY AND SO IS LITERALLY COMING OUT SWINGING!



Maybe it's an issue with transitions, but if so it's the only transition he had trouble with this week. It was a short time of low supervision, but seriously? throwing like that? why? just trying to test the boundaries?

Physical aggression is, at home, an automatic TO. (We learned to stop talking with DS1, lol!) At school, it's a "hear what the other person has to say, tell them you're sorry, ask if they are ok, hug and go on" event.

The preschool is both more positive and less firm than we are at home.

I would bet that he's very overwhelmed, coming out swinging, etc. And I have no idea what his reinforcers are at school; maybe going to gym? But I'll give it some thought.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[Canna]

Another thought is that even if the classroom doesn't seem overwhelming at all from an adult perspective, it is STRESSFUL for a 2.5 year-old to be asked to:
Do things he doesn't want to do like sit in a circle, stand in a line, sing a certain song
Deal with other kids who seem unpredictable and whom he doesn't know yet
Deal with other adults whom he doesn't know yet (but will) and who have their own unique styles.
Change from one activity to another when he isn't ready yet
Filter out regular classroom or playground noise and activity

Under these circumstances I think it is just hard for little ones to control their impulses (Grab the candlestick! It's so shiny and pretty!) and then to know what to do ("Uh oh! I think I shouldn't have grabbed that! I feel uncomfortable! Run!").

[ThreeofUs]

Another thought is that even if the classroom doesn't seem overwhelming at all from an adult perspective, it is STRESSFUL for a 2.5 year-old to be asked to:
Do things he doesn't want to do like sit in a circle, stand in a line, sing a certain song
Deal with other kids who seem unpredictable and whom he doesn't know yet
Deal with other adults whom he doesn't know yet (but will) and who have their own unique styles.
Change from one activity to another when he isn't ready yet
Filter out regular classroom or playground noise and activity

Under these circumstances I think it is just hard for little ones to control their impulses (Grab the candlestick! It's so shiny and pretty!) and then to know what to do ("Uh oh! I think I shouldn't have grabbed that! I feel uncomfortable! Run!").


Except that he's more like 2.9, I think you're right. ;) I think he's super-stressed by the classroom environment.

This is why I think pulling him from school and giving him another year home is probably the best course.

[hillview]

I would consider 2 options. One would be as pp have said, leave him alone there and see if it gets better. Another would be a shorter day. Is he acting up IMMEDIATELTY or after a couple of hours? Could you do 1-2 hours for a bit?
/hillary

[ThreeofUs]

I would consider 2 options. One would be as pp have said, leave him alone there and see if it gets better. Another would be a shorter day. Is he acting up IMMEDIATELTY or after a couple of hours? Could you do 1-2 hours for a bit?
/hillary


Yeah. It sounds reasonable. But he's acting up the. whole. time. Zero change in behavior from 8:30 to 11:30. Just as likely to be acting out at 9 as at 10 or 11.

[hillview]

Ok then I'd give it a couple more weeks. Try the not being there for a week. Then personally I might bail.

[pinkmomagain]

Honestly, I think he is too young for this class. If they had a "young 3s" group, *maybe* I'd try a little longer, but I would pull him out and wait a year. I think you'll find that next September he will have a much better experience. (And so will you!)

[ThreeofUs]

Ok then I'd give it a couple more weeks. Try the not being there for a week. Then personally I might bail.


Honestly, I think he is too young for this class. If they had a "young 3s" group, *maybe* I'd try a little longer, but I would pull him out and wait a year. I think you'll find that next September he will have a much better experience. (And so will you!)


We might try for the next week, but given the behavior (not joining in, acting inappropriately, hitting, etc.) I think he needs the development time.

ETA: But, you know, my big question is what I can do for DS2 to help him stop hitting. Any ideas?

[gatorsmom]

I haven't read the other responses but first wanted to give you a huge hug because I know exactly what you are going through. Your DS2 sounds EXACTLY like Greenbean. Well, maybe not quite as bad as Greenbean. We went to another family's house for dinner last night. They have 7 kids who are all great with little ones (their kids are in 4th 5th, and 6th grades). When I left Greenbean with them in the basement to play with their old Nintendo system, everyone seemed fine. But when it was someone else's turn to play, Greenbean threw the controller across the room then went over to the gaming console, yanked it off the shelf, threw it on the floor and began to pound on it. At least that's what Gator said when he came up from the basement screaming, "Mom, Greenbean is out of control, you've got to stop him!" Thank God Greenbean didn't break anything, according to the mom this morning (though, she's so nice she could be lying to make me feel better). I couldn't sleep last night worrying about it.

The sad fact is, Greenbean is much better than he used to be. Since we got him into therapy he is making slow progress. I think it is also helping that he is getting older and communicating much better his needs. But it is still a lot of work. He started a PreK class last week and loves it but I can tell it exhausts him. There is a lot of noise from the other kids and he has to try to control himself in those situations. He has a hard time dealing with noise from groups of people. It makes him CRAZY. Bright light bothers him a lot too and that will make him act out in random unexpected ways. We've also begun to notice that he is extremely sensitive to temperature and smell. He can smell EVERYTHING. It's amazing the scents he can pick up that no one else can unless they hold it against their nose.

Fatigue and hunger can greatly amplify the problem. His somewhat bad behavior can go disasterously bad if he's hungry to somewhat tired. Greenbean has the added bonus of severe constipation. As long as he is regularly on his medication, there is no problem. But as soon as he misses a day, constipation can make him into a little hellion. He is such a delicate little guy.

My suggestion is to get him into therapy if you haven't already. Talk to the therapist about the possibility that he has anxiety issues. Sensory issues could be part of the problem too, if the noise from the class is disturbing to him (like it is with Greenbean). Keeping him on a regular schedule has been key for Greenbean's well-being.

As a side-note, the only kind of discipline that helps Greenbean is when we put him in a quiet area where he can calm down and regroup. Most of the time while is in the throes of being naughty/distructive he is wailing, "I want to stop being naughty." I think he is just starting to learn how to calm himself and control himself.

[crl]

I've got no real advice. I just wanted to tell you that my brother was a preschool drop out. Mom pulled him out when the preschool teachers said they thought it would be best. I think he was acting a lot like your little guy. Hysterics when mom left, just not able to cope with the classroom, etc. Mom put him back in the following year and he was okay. So I think pulling him is a viable option if you think it would be best.

Catherine