Graduating from HS with 2 years of college credit--in favor of this or not?

[justlearning]

This is a s/o of the thread about student loans. A friend of mine recently enrolled her son in a (public) charter high school that allows students to take college classes for free while in high school. The classes count for both high school and college credit, so students are able to graduate with an associate of arts degree at the same time that they get their high school diploma.

She's thrilled about this because she has six kids so if they all go there and are successful in completing the classes, she can save 12 years of college expenses (2 years per child).

So what do you think about kids earning that much college credit while in high school? Would you want your child to attend a high school like that and then start upper division courses in college at the age of 18 or so? Are there any high schools in your area that offer this?

ETA that I should clarify something--these aren't AP classes that the kids are taking but rather actual college classes at the local community college. So another issue here is that high schoolers are attending college classes and working in groups with older college students (including adult re-entry students). So I'm also interested in the issue of whether or not you'd like for your kid to attend actual college classes while in high school. Does that change how you view this issue?

[daniele_ut]

Almost every high school in Utah offers some form of concurrent enrollment classes that give college credit for general education requirements and there are several magnet and charter schools that have more specific programs designed to allow students to graduate with associate's degrees. I think it's a great idea.

DH would have had a full year of credit for concurrent enrollment when he started college, but he decided to major in music so a lot of his general ed requirements weren't satisfied by what he had taken in HS.

Frankly, would I love for my children to have the same SLA 4 year college experience I did? Sure. Do I want them saddled with the amount of debt that would take? Absolutely NOT. The college I went to has DOUBLED it's tuition and fees since I graduated. $40K a YEAR now.

For DS, graduating HS with college credit will be hugely beneficial to him if he decides to serve as a missionary for 2 years for our church, which is very likely. He'll go from age 19-21, so having some college under his belt will give him an advantage. DH was 21 when he started college after his mission.

We employ a lot of college students part time where I work and most of them are going to the local community college to finish general ed requirements and then transferring to a state school. It's much more common here than where I grew up.

[vonfirmath]

A lot of homeschoolers do this as well.

And kids have always been able to graduate with AP credit that meant they were taking some higher level courses from the beginning (I did this 20 years ago)

Does not bother me one bit.

[sweetsue98]

This is interesting and I think alot more high schools are offering programs that students will earn college credits. Along with a college education comes along with college experiences that usually take 4+ years to obtain. I hope that the credits from high school will not take away from college experience due to less years in college. On the other hand, some people spend more than 4 years in college. I guess as long as it benefits the student it's all good!

[Kindra178]

I am against this. I guess this falls into the unpopular opinion category. In my experience, no matter how hard/how great your high school is, college level courses are harder and have greater expectations that go beyond what is learned and/or understood at the AP level in high school. Indeed, some colleges accept a 3 on a AP test, which is a crappy score, imo, and does not demonstrate a mastery of the material presented.

The vast majority of elite private schools in NYC no longer offer AP branded classes so that the teachers don't teach to the test. Finally, I interview students for a fairly elite college via their alumni interviewing program, and I tell everyone I interview to at least take some of the classes where they actually can receive credit over again. This is because graduate schools don't care if you aced the AP test and can move to the higher level of something as a freshman. It is possible, of course, that a student is really ready to move to the higher level of a course, but if not, then a student will have to deal with a bad grade on his or her transcript. Also, it's okay imo if a student adjusting to college takes an easier class, one where the material is a little more managable.

[crl]

My only concern would be jumping into harder classes AND living away from home for the first time might be a bit much. Some collge credits seem advantageous though.

Catherine

[pinkmomagain]

Kids can get AP credit in our school district. Problem is, not all colleges accept these credits.

I like that the kids are challenged and exposed to higher-level thinking (my oldest is taking her first AP right now, and the reading/annotating/writing is definitely at a much higher level than even an honors class).

However, I would not want my kids taking all that college credit at such a young age. In general, I don't think even the most mature HS teens will get as much out of the material than if they take it a few years later. Also, I would rather have a college professor teaching this material than a HS teacher. And finally, I want my kids to enjoy typical high school experiences! It just seems like another case of kids having their childhood taken away from them. My dd is the lead in her show, on a varsity sport, and in a school leadership program...yes I expect her to do well accademically, however she could never do these extras and keep her grades up if the majority of her classes were college-level. And I feel that these extras are priceless enhancements to her education and growth. So......I would not want this type of program for my kids.

But, I TOTALLY get the financial upside (if colleges do accept all those credits)...especially with 6 kids!

[ellies mom]

Washington has Running Start where kids can start taking classes at the local community college their junior year. Most kids that take them just take a few classes but some take a lot more. Our babysitter graduated from high school with her associates degree. She started college as a junior. Another friend's child was able to take a lot of the more in depth science/engineering type classes that he loved.

I love the idea. College is expensive and this is a great way to save some of that expense. It can challenge the brighter, possibly more bored students. It can provide a gentle transition from high school to college without as many of the risks. They can still do the high school things they enjoy while working on college credit. If we stay in WA, I really hope my daughters take full advantage of the idea.

[justlearning]

Note--I edited my original post to clarify that these kids are taking actual college classes at the community college with other college students, not receiving credit from AP classes.

[m448]

Where I grew up dual enrollment meant the college courses were taken at the local college on select days. I think both options (dual enrollment and AP courses) are positive.

[marymoo86]

There's positives and negatives to this. Depends on the maturity of the kid taking the credits. When he/she goes off to school at 18 and finishes at 20-21 - is that going to be mature enough to deal with real world issues like living alone, being financially responsible, etc. Would they be prepared enough to continue on to grad school?

It's great financially.

[weech]

I'll be one of the lone dissenters. I think a class or two of college credit is fine, but two years worth is too much. The transition from a community college to a 4-year university is huge and the classes will be substantially harder. Also, I think the kids deserve to have the full college experience. I know I would not have wanted two years of my college career to be taken away, nor would I have been the slightest bit ready to graduate at 20 years old. Maybe it's just me, but I think kids are being forced to grow up way too fast. You have your entire life to work. Take out some student loans, study abroad, and experience life before you have to join the working world for the rest of your life.

And yes, this is coming from someone buried in student loans from undergrad and grad school... :rotflmao:

[lowrioh]

Our school district just started a school like this on the campus of the Community College but I am pretty sure that the kids have to test into the program (not just a lottery) so it is for the best and brightest in the county (in theory). DH and I are both very academic and we were pretty bored for a lot of our high school classes. I think that if DDs got into this new school and seemed to like it I would be very happy about it.
I think it depends on the individual kid. If they are mature enough to handle being in a community college environment etc.

ETA- I would also encourage my DDs to take a year or two as a gap year/s and travel/work abroad either between HS and College or College and Grad School/work. I graduated HS at 16 and studied a year abroad between HS and college and then took another year off between college and Grad School so I was 27 when I finally got my PhD.

[Ceepa]

If a HS student is self-directed and motivated enough to take college-level courses at a local campus and perform well, why wouldn't we give them credit?

We have a lot of time before this would be on my radar, but if DC wanted to pursue this path I would support them.

[justlearning]

If a HS student is self-directed and motivated enough to take college-level courses at a local campus and perform well, why wouldn't we give them credit?


I went to a small private school and was bored as a junior, and I wanted to start college. So my school said that I could do senior-level coursework on my own at night (using curriculum intended for homeschoolers) at the same time that I was doing my junior-level classes. They then gave me the senior-level credits, so I was able to graduate from HS at the end of my junior year. They never gave me the option of taking college classes during my senior year and earning credit for both HS and college that way. In fact, I had never even heard of that being an option until recently.

[m448]

Perhaps this is a US specific issue where I've seen the tide towards extending childhood in the teen years yet wanting to push babies and toddlers towards independence. I was born in the dominican republic where the average high schooler graduates at the age of 16-17 and then goes straight to university. Also, by that time you would have chosen your career path where aspiring lawyers and doctors go straight into their law/medical program along with the rest of their courses. Most of my cousins are normal young adults who at 20 are practicing lawyers, doctors and engineers. They work for European multinational companies and handle the responsibilities quite well.

You aren't owed some kind of American rumspringa of college years to party away.

[justlearning]

Perhaps this is a US specific issue where I've seen the tide towards extending childhood in the teen years yet wanting to push babies and toddlers towards independence. I was born in the dominican republic where the average high schoolers graduayes at the age of 16-17 and then go straight to university. Also, by that time you would have chosen your career path where aspiring lawyers and doctors go straight into their law/medical program along with the rest of their courses. Most of my cousins are normal young adults who at 20 are practicing lawyers, doctors and engineers who are also working for European multinational companies and handle the responsibilities quite well.

You aren't owed some kind of American rumspringa of college years to party away.st

Very interesting perspective--thanks for sharing this! I did graduate from college with a B.S. when I was 20, but I can't imagine already having an advanced degree by then too.

[vonfirmath]

I've actually heard of Utah starting to talk about doing away with Senior year for kids who don't need it and having kids graduate after 11 years of school...

And throughout history, this is what used to happen. Laura Ingalls "Graduated" after 8 years of schooling. Then she took the teaching certificate and started to help support her family. (Yes, some kids continued on beyond that. But kids at 15/16 were working already! For pay!)

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=9420123&nid=148

[Ceepa]

They never gave me the option of taking college classes during my senior year and earning credit for both HS and college that way. In fact, I had never even heard of that being an option until recently.

Yes, I think that there was always that random kid who did something like this, but I also never heard of making it into a fully developed program available to the entire student body.

[crayonblue]

[QUOTE=Kindra178;3271912]I am against this. I guess this falls into the unpopular opinion category. In my experience, no matter how hard/how great your high school is, college level courses are harder and have greater expectations that go beyond what is learned and/or understood at the AP level in high school.

Not necessarily. I took AP Biology II in high school and my freshman college Biology class used the same text book. I was REALLY wishing that my high school class had counted as a college credit because I had to basically repeat the entire year in order to get Biology credit.

I would have LOVED to have earned college credit in high school for many different classes.

[dcmom2b3]

I really think that it depends; on the child, his/her level of maturity, academic interests, etc. On the community college, too, and the liklihood that those credits will transfer and fulfill the general ed/lower-level major requirements for a four-year degree at the institution s/he chooses. I think it's certainly worth exploring, but I wouldn't bank on it being a one-size-fits-all solution for every child.

There are other ways to accomplish nearly the same thing -- my best friend in HS took an accelerated program, basically compressed his junior year classes into sophomore and senior years, graduated HS a year early. I took a different route: applied for college admission as a HS junior, matriculated, took college level classes to fulfill my HS senior year english and history requirements, and came back to graduate HS after my freshman year of college.

[justlearning]

There are other ways to accomplish nearly the same thing -- my best friend in HS took an accelerated program, basically compressed his junior year classes into sophomore and senior years, graduated HS a year early. I took a different route: applied for college admission as a HS junior, matriculated, took college level classes to fulfill my HS senior year english and history requirements, and came back to graduate HS after my freshman year of college.

I think the main difference is the cost issue. Like I said in an earlier post, I also graduated from HS at the end of my junior year and started college as a 16-year-old. But I was responsible then for my college costs (fortunately, I got a scholarship), whereas these programs now allow students to take college classes for free while having them count for HS credit.

[egoldber]

I personally think this a fantastic idea, We have actually even considered doing this as a way of "homeschooling" older DD for high school if high school turns out to be a poor fit for her. One of my issue with AP classes is that they are often geared at teaching to the test vs. content. Taking an actual college class avoids this problem and provides the same credit.

But even if older DD did this, I would encourage her to enroll for a full 4 years of undergraduate work. I graduated high school with a year of AP credits and still took 4 years to graduate college. But doing that allowed me (IMO) to skip some really boring undergrad classes and several large lecture hall type classes. And it allowed me to take more upper division classes in my major (math) and to get an undergraduate minor in English literature. I would not have had the time or ability to do this without having those AP credits.

[ciw]

graduate schools don't care if you aced the AP test and can move to the higher level of something as a freshman.

Because of the overwhelming demand by parents for their h.s. kids to take college classes, the high schools here have quit paying for students to take college courses. The schools just couldn't afford it anymore. Students can still do it, but parents have to pay. So it may shave time off a students' college experience but it won't shave quite as much off the college bill. Still, I think it's a good idea for many kids.

But Kindra makes a really good point about graduate schools -- many will still require students to take certain college classes as an actual college student. I tested out of many classes as a college freshman but graduate schools required me to go back and take those classes years later anyway. (The courses the graduate schools required me to go back to take were all outside of my undergraduate major and have absolutely nothing to do w/my graduate degree but the schools wanted to see coursework in certain subjects anyway).

I think the moral is that high school students need to pick their college classes very carefully if they don't want to end up retaking those courses . . . and when it comes to graduate school, they may have to retake those classes anyway. As a parent, I would probably encourage my child to do it if I felt he was ready for college work, but I wouldn't put a lot of stock in it having a financial payoff.

[dcmom2b3]

I think the main difference is the cost issue. Like I said in an earlier post, I also graduated from HS at the end of my junior year and started college as a 16-year-old. But I was responsible then for my college costs (fortunately, I got a scholarship), whereas these programs now allow students to take college classes for free while having them count for HS credit.

Ah, forgot to mention that we saved a year of HS tuition (actually that was one of my motivating factors). If they're taking college classes for free and getting HS credit for it, I say what's not to like?

[justlearning]

Ah, forgot to mention that we saved a year of HS tuition (actually that was one of my motivating factors). If they're taking college classes for free and getting HS credit for it, I say what's not to like?

Good point--my approach actually ended up saving us money too because with the scholarship, college tuition was free and we then didn't have to pay my HS private tuition.

But yes, now it does seem to very cost-effective if you're able to go to a public HS for free and also take college classes for free (like my friend's son).

[lizzywednesday]

If the kids are up to the work, I see no reason why this would be a disadvantage.

There are programs for "advanced" students at our county's high schools that allow them to take community college classes at either a reduced rate or for free, in addition to partnerships with several of the state's universities that guarantee admission to a 4-year program if you've completed a certain course of study at a state community college with a high GPA.

The Associate's degree in many majors can give you a leg up on working towards a Bachelor's and it's good to have a realistic idea of what college-level expectations would be if a kid should decide to continue.

In addition, a kid with an Associate's is a bit more marketable out in the "real world" than they might be with just a high school diploma.

[debbatx]

I'm going to de-lurk for a moment for this one. I work for a community college that offers this option - we call it Early College Start. When the students graduate from high school, they'll also be graduating with an Associate's degree. The high schools we've partnered with are ones that are struggling and in lower socioeconomic areas - lots of students in poverty, students who have babies of their own, students who are likely, with this program, to be the first in the family to have any type of college degree. They're also NOT likely, necessarily, to go to a traditional 4-year college.

Honestly, in this situation, I think it's an awesome idea. These kids will graduate and be able to get out in the workforce much more quickly, and be able to find above minimum-wage jobs because of that Associate's degree. Some of them will go on to a 4-year degree, and that's fabulous, too. But I think getting out of high school with an AA or AS and being able to get a decent job is going to be HUGE for lifting a lot of these kids out of poverty.

In our setup, though, the kids stay on their high school campus. They don't have to take courses with our older students.

Back to lurking!

[justlearning]

I'm going to de-lurk for a moment for this one. ..Back to lurking!

Thanks for de-lurking and offering such a good perspective. In my friend's area, the kids aren't in poverty, although it is still helpful for the families to save on college tuition, of course. But it's great to hear about how your program can truly be life-changing for the students in terms of the opportunities they'll have later.

And now that you've gotten your feet wet, I hope that you'll participate on here more--welcome! :)

[american_mama]

The more I think about this issue, the more interesting it gets. For instance, those 1-2 years of community college classes in high school may be free to the parents, but they are paid for somewhere, presumably by the school district or the state. So, ultimately, they are paid for by taxpayers. I'd be curious about the financial impacts of implementing a program like this on a district-wide or state scale, and about the fairness issues, especially if the motivation is largely for families in the program to save college tuition while the entire tax base foots the bill.

Would this program be only for top students, who are fulfilling general education credits at the community college? Or might it also be intended or expanded to vocational students who are taking more job=oriented classes and graduating high school with an associates?

I think your view of this also depends a little bit on what you expect out of college. If you see the experience part of it as equal or more than career preparation, then you may feel like speeding that up by a year or two is detrimental. If you see college primarily about preparing one for a job, you may see concerns about "the experience" as frivolous, inefficient, etc.

As for high schoolers being with community college students in person, I think I'd have to weigh that on a per child basis. In general, if I thought my student was motivated and capable enough to do the work, I'd probably feel comfortable with their maturity to handle being amidst much older students, and willing to up my parental monitoring to make sure I thought everything was working well for my child.

I don't see a program like this as taking a kid's childhood away, but rather expanding the options to meet the needs of a range of kids . If the high school years involve a child being bored to tears, negative about school, or not stretching themselves, then I think doing something else is good, even necessary. If a child's sports or extra curricular activities in high school are so important to them, then I think it's probably unfair to pull a 16 year old away from that and into a program like this.

I do see a program like this as slightly curtailing a child's young adulthood, because I lean on the "experience" side of looking at college. I am a little uncomfortable saying that, because it is a real extravagance to say a 20 year old isn't ready to work and needs time to keep exploring ideas and fun in college. I'm not thinking of some right to tailgate, but rather having enough time in college to pick a major and change your mind (which, within reason, I don't think is frivolous), take a minor or concentration in something you love but wouldn't have otherwise studied, or study abroad. And of course a program like this would not work for an athlete, for whom the personal and sometimes financial benefits of college sports are very important. My husband would have been academically capable of a program like the OP described, but would have been worse off. He was a talented multi-sport athlete who would have been miserable not playing, and his family also did not have the money to pay for even 2 year's of college. His 4 year sports scholarship enabled him to get his degree.

[justlearning]

The more I think about this issue, the more interesting it gets... His 4 year sports scholarship enabled him to get his degree.

I liked your analysis of all the different issues, including bringing up the point about who's actually paying for the college classes and the impact on taxpayers.

This is off-topic but regarding sports scholarships, I recently went to a laser hair removal office and started chatting with the technician. She said that she had worked hard her whole life playing basketball and received a full scholarship to play at a college. She went there but then had a career-ending injury during her freshman year. She said that the college then took away her scholarship, so she now can't afford to go to college. Not being an athlete, I was surprised to hear that they could strip her of her scholarship but she said that yes, if she can't play, they don't have to keep paying her college. What a sad situation!

[egoldber]

I do see a program like this as slightly curtailing a child's young adulthood, because I lean on the "experience" side of looking at college.

This is why I would still encourage my children to complete a 4 full years at a college away from home evemn if they graduated with 2 years of credit. I think that is an important transition experience for many kids that has nothing to do with the classes they take.

[AnnieW625]

IMHO if you think that your child at 20 yrs. old will be able to go into the working world and be successful then I don't see a problem with it. However I would also look and see if employers will hire a 20 yr. old with a degree. I think maturity would play a big part in my decision if this were an option for my children (which I believe it is). I am also really big on wanting my children to have the traditional high school experience and if attending jr. college 3 nights a week for 3 to 4 hours detracts from that then I might discourage it. I also want my children to have the traditional dorm experience at college and I also think that this would detract from it.

[wendibird22]

I'm ok with the concept and would support my children doing it but would not count on it as a cost saving measurer. I work at a highly selective college and most of our freshmen enter school with 30-60 credits and yet almost all are still here for the full 4 yrs. They take on 2nd/3rd majors, multiple minors, spend a year doing study abroad, etc. So, while it didn't same them in tuition it did afford them many great opportunities they may not have had otherwise.

[BabyBearsMom]

I graduated high school with 16 college credits through AP Coop courses. It didn't shorten my college experience though becaues it took me a little while to settle on a major (I actually ended up taking an extra semester in the end). It did help me because it gave me enough undergrad credits, so I didn't have to get my Masters in order to sit for the CPA exam. I am grateful that I didn't have to do another year of school

[waitingforgrace]

Yes I think it's great. I took advantage of our state offering a program that allowed you to take college classes at a local community college and earn both high school and college credit. The program was started in our state to afford opportunities to those of us in more rural schools where psych, communications, journalism classes, etc were not offered. I only did it my senior year and still spent part of my day at the high school.

I can see where there could be problems if a student completely leaves high school as a junior for the college courses, but I didn't know anyone who did that so I'd be curious how often that really happens.

[lovin2shop]

Our community college offers dual credit courses, and I generally think it is an exceptional option for the community as a whole. As debbatx pointed out, I've witnessed how an AA degree earned in HS has significantly changed the lives of young adults who would not have been college bound.

But, I'm not certain I would push my kids into the program. From my personal HS experience, the Honors AP classes that I took were MUCH more interesting and rigorous than the community college classes. The CC classes that I took were plain vanilla straight up memorization type work, and were taught to a remedial level. And, to be quite honest, even some of these basic classes at my University were much easier than my High School honors classes. I don't know enough about our local High School yet, but if this is the case, then I'd definitely steer my kids towards the program that offers the most enriched learning environment. I do feel fortunate to have that choice though.

[lec]

I went to a traditional high school that had an option called Post Secondary Education Option (PSEO). It was something that you had to apply for when you were a junior/senior. You had to have a high GPA, be on track to graduate (classes taken at the community college did not count toward high school credits), and there were a few other minor requirements. I was bored at school and decided to apply. I was accepted into the program and started taking college classes my junior year. I would go to high school for half a day to complete the required high school classes to graduate and I was enrolled in 1 college class each quarter (3 quarters total) at the local community college. My senior year I only had to go to high school for 2 periods to complete my required credits for graduation and I took 2 college classes a quarter. When I graduated from high school I had 1 year of college done. I continued at the community college after high school and got my Associates the following year. I then transferred and completed my Bachelors in 1.5 years and went on to complete my Masters at the time most of my high school graduating class was finishing their Bachelors.

For me personally the experience was great. I enjoyed the challenge that the college classes offered that I just wasn't getting in high school. Most of the times it was a very postitive experience and the other college students didn't treat me any different. There were a few times that it was a little challenging - when the schedule would work out that I would have to take a night class - that always worried my parents. Or the time a team I was assigned to wanted meet at a local bar to work on a project - but the professor was understanding and reassigned me.

If my daughter approached me and wanted to take college classes in high school I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[longtallsally05]

I am against this. I guess this falls into the unpopular opinion category. In my experience, no matter how hard/how great your high school is, college level courses are harder and have greater expectations that go beyond what is learned and/or understood at the AP level in high school.
....
Finally, I interview students for a fairly elite college via their alumni interviewing program, and I tell everyone I interview to at least take some of the classes where they actually can receive credit over again. This is because graduate schools don't care if you aced the AP test and can move to the higher level of something as a freshman. It is possible, of course, that a student is really ready to move to the higher level of a course, but if not, then a student will have to deal with a bad grade on his or her transcript. Also, it's okay imo if a student adjusting to college takes an easier class, one where the material is a little more managable.

I agree; there is something to this. I recently had a discussion with an friend (an engineering physics doctoral student) about advanced placement courses, community college and associate degrees where the same issues came up: adjusting to university while taking upper level courses. My friend graduated from a special high school for math & science and went straight into upper level honors courses when he went to university. He said that although he was able to push through, he very nearly buckled under the pressure. He advises anyone who asks him to just go straight to university if they intend to obtain a bachelor degree or higher, particularly if they come from a small/rural school (like the school from which he transferred), so they have time to adjust to the experience. In his opinion, most people just starting out at university don't have the study habits and work ethic necessary to suceed in challenging, upper level courses, and that people straight out of high school or community college won't know what hit them if they start out in 3000+ level courses. He said he certainly would not have suceeded at upper level honors courses as a college freshman had he not developed those habits during his rather unusual experience at the math & science school.

I was an AP student at a regular high school, and I agree that most students (including myself) really start developing study habits after they get to university, if they are to succeed. Many people start out at university; a lot of them drop out before graduation. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but I'm not going to count on my kids being exceptional. I'll encourage them to do some AP classes, but I won't push them to get two years worth of college credit while they're in high school. I'm going to encourage them to go to university straight after high school, as I did, if their goal is to get a bachelor degree. If they can do what they want to do with an associate degree, then they can go to community college.

[vonfirmath]

IMHO if you think that your child at 20 yrs. old will be able to go into the working world and be successful then I don't see a problem with it. However I would also look and see if employers will hire a 20 yr. old with a degree. I think maturity would play a big part in my decision if this were an option for my children (which I believe it is). I am also really big on wanting my children to have the traditional high school experience and if attending jr. college 3 nights a week for 3 to 4 hours detracts from that then I might discourage it. I also want my children to have the traditional dorm experience at college and I also think that this would detract from it.

Employers hire 21 year olds with a degree--why not 20 year olds?

I know plenty of folk even older who are not very mature so 1 year of maturity there should not be a make or break!

(And Boeing hired me at 22 years without a degree. So...)

[sste]

Well, I am in no way opposed and I can certainly see situations/kids where this would make sense.

But, as to what I hope? Well, I hope my DS and DD have exactly what pinkmomagain describes - - a fun, enriching, peer bonding experience doing all sorts of things in the physical home base of their high school and with their high school peer group. Of course, my hopes don't count if it doesn't end up being suitable for the particular child. I have been thinking about this a little because in the past few months multiple of DS's pre-k teachers have come to me to say that he is doing some developmentally unusual things in pre-k in terms of his level of creative play and comprehension and to show me his work and his (teacher-scribed) journal relative to his peers. I am hoping it all evens out by the time DS starts school because I have read alot of "bored child" posts here and I would like to avoid that! DH and I are overwhelmed as is and the thought of working out getting a high schooler to and fro from community college is alot for me to take in . . .

[o_mom]

I liked your analysis of all the different issues, including bringing up the point about who's actually paying for the college classes and the impact on taxpayers.

This is off-topic but regarding sports scholarships, I recently went to a laser hair removal office and started chatting with the technician. She said that she had worked hard her whole life playing basketball and received a full scholarship to play at a college. She went there but then had a career-ending injury during her freshman year. She said that the college then took away her scholarship, so she now can't afford to go to college. Not being an athlete, I was surprised to hear that they could strip her of her scholarship but she said that yes, if she can't play, they don't have to keep paying her college. What a sad situation!

On that note, the neighbor's son transferred after his sophomore year when the school told him his athletic scholarship would end after his first semester junior year because they figured he would be drafted. I don't know all the ins and outs of athletic scholarships, but I don't know that getting credits in HS would prevent a student from getting one.

I know the dual-enrollment credits I took 20+ years ago only saved about a semester off my degree - and with the requirements at many schools, it is not always reasonable to finish in 4 years. The 'plan' for my degree had several semesters of 18 credit hours, which was a lot. Getting 12 credits before even graduating HS made it so that I could keep the course load down a bit and do better in those courses.

I also think that while it is possible to get an entire two years worth of credit in some of these programs, most kids will likely not do that. Many will take a few dual-enrollment classes in their strongest subjects where they have topped out the offerings at their school or instead of AP courses where you have to pass the exam to get credit that is not always accepted. Some may take more entry level stuff in subjects not offered at HS as well to earn credits for the general requirements.

While a "traditional" 4 year college experience is nice, I think it is somewhat elitist to say that offering non-traditional paths is somehow bad. I have not heard that anyone is forced into these programs or otherwise denied the usual HS/college experience. As long as the schools are very upfront about what the credit is and how it will apply to transfers, I don't see a problem.

[Simon]

I haven't read all the pp, but I think it depends on the program.

Version A: dual enrollment classes are taught at the HS, by the HS teachers who are endorsed by the CC and the students get dual credit. I think this is a *bad* idea. For the most part, the students are not doing college level work and are not really taking a college level course. I have seen this first hand.

Version B: HS students are able to enroll at the CC and take classes there to earn dural credit (HS and CC). I think this is a fine option.

I have taught students at community/technical colleges, research universities, and small private colleges. I have friends and a Dh who teach at the HS level and I can tell you that the dual enrollment courses at the HS are *not* going to prepare students for upper level courses in the same way as taking them at the CC.

Obviously this is a generalization based on my experience. But, I have seen plenty of sinking upper classmen in my intermediate courses who are struggling because their CC or even the university branch campus classes (or the AP credit they have) did not really prepare them with a good foundation for the material we are covering. Or, with enough college level reading, writing and study skills in general.

Would I love my kids to have a jump start on college or reduce my tuition costs? Sure.
I am not convinced that I would ever let my kids do so if the only choice is Version A.

[mytwosons]

Our district has this type of program. I don't know all of the details, but I will be considering it for my kids.

In our case, the kids start the program at the beginning of their sophmore year. They have a cohort and move through the (state) university courses together. I believe they also spend some amount of each day at the traditional high school. They don't graduate with an Associate's degree (not offered by the University) but they have 60 credit hours under their belts. I do want my kids to have a full college experience, but also think if they go on to grad school, it wouldn't be a bad thing to start two years early. Also, if they want to take 4 years in undergrad, they would be able to obtain a double major.

I have to admit the tuition savings is very attractive.

[Katigre]

I did this in high school during my senior year and it was fine. I received high school and college credit for my courses and that helped me shave off a year of college costs between those courses and AP credits.

Some things to keep in mind are that some college are no longer allowing 'dual credits' to be counted toward a college degree, and that having an associates can cut down on your financial aid offers b/c you are not considered an incoming freshman. It also impacts the time you are at a school, which reduces your time to build friendships/relationships on campus (this was true for me).

[twowhat?]

Haven't read all the replies but here is my experience: I went to a boarding/magnet type school where we finished our last 2 high school years taking actually college classes while living in a dorm on the college campus. So at graduation, you (theoretically) have 2 years of college done and can start in to your college of choice as a junior.

This can be really fabulous...for kids who are emotionally ready for it. I've also seen classmates pretty much ruined by it because they just weren't emotionally ready for it/not mature enough.

Also, it didn't guarantee that you save 2 years in college tuition - that was only for the colleges that would accept the credit (and not all colleges, particularly the ivy league schools, accepted all of those credits). I went to a state school where all my credits counted and graduated college at 20 years old. But many of my friends took longer than the 2 years to graduate, not necessarily because their college of choice didn't accept all the credits but because they needed additional prerequisite courses for their major, or ended up changing majors, etc.

So - I do NOT see it as being any sort of guarantee on saving on 2 years of college tuition. No way. You just don't know and younger kids don't always know what they want to be "when they grow up" and need longer to decide, or need to dabble in different majors, etc. It CAN give kids who are emotionally ready and have a pretty good idea of what they want to do a head start. But not necessarily.

[hellokitty]

Our district offers this type of program and I would like my kids to participate in it. With that said, I do NOT expect that it will trim off 2 yrs from their undergrad. I would like them to take some college level courses, b/c they are typically more in depth than HS courses (even AP courses, I'm sorry, but my HS AP courses were a joke, NOTHING like college). However, if they repeat similar courses when they are doing their undergrad, I don't think it is a big deal, each prof teaches courses differently. What one prof teaches will be different from another and it will be different btwn each institution, so I would not expect the same course to be the same from both schools, kwim?

Also, you shouldn't write off that if you have a child who you intend to send ivy, should just skip over these type of classes. I had a friend who went to a different high school than me, whose school let her take classes at the local community college, b/c she was very advanced. She took many college courses, probably got credit for them, went on to ivy and then med school, took the same time as she would have for anyone else who went to those schools, but just b/c she did not trim off any extra semesters doesn't automatically mean that those courses at a community college were beneath her. On the flip side, yes for those who want to pursue certain careers or don't want more than a AA degree, I can see that this program WOULD save them $. I do not see any harm in letting your child participate in this type of program is what I am saying. They can still have a, "normal" college experience, taking some college level courses at the local college isn't going to ruin things for them and at the same time, college was great, but if I would have trimmed off a yr or two from my experience, I do not feel that it would have mattered that much to me.

Oh and as for being too young to work. Keep in mind, many nurses who are LPNs or RNs with only a AA degree, ARE out in the workforce btwn ages 20-21. It's certainly not too young to work. I really think that ppl underestimate their kids maturity. Not all teenagers are irresponsible and immature. I HATED high school, I did not, 'get' the idiotic nature of my peers, pep rallies were lame and stupid in my book, the mean girls and cliques all sucked. Icouldn't wait to go off to college. I would loved to have participated in a program like this if it would have been available when I was in high school. I also think that a prgm like this would fill a transitional gap btwn high school and college. The first yr of college was a big adjustment for me, I was a top student in high school, but DID struggle my freshmen yr in college. I think I would have benefited from taking some college courses in high school, even if it was at a community college, to get more a feel of what to expect and to develop better study skills earlier on.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

I agree; there is something to this. I recently had a discussion with an friend (an engineering physics doctoral student) about advanced placement courses, community college and associate degrees where the same issues came up: adjusting to university while taking upper level courses. My friend graduated from a special high school for math & science and went straight into upper level honors courses when he went to university. He said that although he was able to push through, he very nearly buckled under the pressure. He advises anyone who asks him to just go straight to university if they intend to obtain a bachelor degree or higher, particularly if they come from a small/rural school (like the school from which he transferred), so they have time to adjust to the experience. In

Well, not a PhD student (but I do have an engineering Masters degree from a top school), but I had the opposite experience.

At my undergrad, the lower level Math classes were so called "weed out" classes. I was glad I didn't take Calc 1/2 and started in Calc3. For some reason, I didn't take my Chem credit and started in Chem 1. Wish I hadn't done that! Giant lecture hall & class since almost every freshman was taking it. I found the higher level classes were more personal and engaging.

[brittone2]

I personally think this a fantastic idea, We have actually even considered doing this as a way of "homeschooling" older DD for high school if high school turns out to be a poor fit for her. One of my issue with AP classes is that they are often geared at teaching to the test vs. content. Taking an actual college class avoids this problem and provides the same credit.

But even if older DD did this, I would encourage her to enroll for a full 4 years of undergraduate work. I graduated high school with a year of AP credits and still took 4 years to graduate college. But doing that allowed me (IMO) to skip some really boring undergrad classes and several large lecture hall type classes. And it allowed me to take more upper division classes in my major (math) and to get an undergraduate minor in English literature. I would not have had the time or ability to do this without having those AP credits.
:yeahthat:

Nak-we HS and I would like my kids to enroll in CC classes when they are high school aged. That doesn't mean that I think all CC coursework is on par with more rigorous colleges, or that I think we'll necessarily shave time off of their undergraduate degrees. In my state I could count the courses as part of their home education experience (as HSers) or they could take it under Dual Enrollment and it would potentially count as college credit.

I took several AP classes in high school but was in a major that had very, very specific requirements. They would only allow a transfer of certain AP credits that were not part of the science courses that were part of my major.

For my own kids, I plan to use it as a way to get their feet wet in terms of dealing with different (non mom) instructors, to learn how to function better in a traditional classroom environment, how to navigate a (smaller) campus, and as a way for them to unfurl their wings a bit before starting their undergrad degree. If some of their credits transfer and we decide that's the best option, great. Depending on their major, what university they plan to attend, etc. we may or may not actually use those credits. I'm certain that transferring those credits could be disadvantageous for certain career paths and certain schools. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but I'm certainly open to them taking CC classes regardless of whether we are shaving time off their undergraduate degree.

I plan to use it as a way to transition from HSing to the broader university experience.

[Trigglet]

From the perspective of a lecturer - we are being pressured to allow local high schools to award credit towards degrees, and I see it not as a move to help students prepare for university, but as a way to keep enrollments up (we are a 4 year state university) and fees rolling in.

I have a negative view of the idea for a couple of reasons. I already see a huge gulf between what I (think I reasonably) expect of my students in terms of engagement, study skills, intellectual curiosity etc and what they are actually capable of/willing to put in. If we were routinely accepting much younger students into upper division classes then I see this getting worse. It is already a joke that some of the students are at university at all (honestly, you would be appalled at their lack of skills and intellectual engagement).

Secondly, from the view of the students there is (or should be) a substantial difference between the teacher-directed work that they are doing at high school and the self-directed study they should be doing at university. Only the best of my students even seem to understand that there is a difference, let alone why self-directed study is so important at undergraduate (and graduate level). I think we are not doing our students much of a favour by shortening the time they have to get their heads round that difference.

(Ugh -can you tell I've had a long morning teaching?!)

[o_mom]

Oh and as for being too young to work. Keep in mind, many nurses who are LPNs or RNs with only a AA degree, ARE out in the workforce btwn ages 20-21. It's certainly not too young to work. I really think that ppl underestimate their kids maturity. Not all teenagers are irresponsible and immature.

Agreed - I think of all the 17-18 yos we allow to enlist in the armed forces, to choose to go fight and possibly die for our country, but they are somehow not mature enough to hold a 9-5 job?

[maylips]

I'll be one of the lone dissenters. I think a class or two of college credit is fine, but two years worth is too much. The transition from a community college to a 4-year university is huge and the classes will be substantially harder. Also, I think the kids deserve to have the full college experience. I know I would not have wanted two years of my college career to be taken away, nor would I have been the slightest bit ready to graduate at 20 years old. Maybe it's just me, but I think kids are being forced to grow up way too fast. You have your entire life to work. Take out some student loans, study abroad, and experience life before you have to join the working world for the rest of your life.


I completely agree with this. Enjoy life while you can! Of course, this is being typed while my 4 year old is in preschool, which I also feels like interferes with her childhood and yet, there she goes each morning.

[weech]

From the perspective of a lecturer - we are being pressured to allow local high schools to award credit towards degrees, and I see it not as a move to help students prepare for university, but as a way to keep enrollments up (we are a 4 year state university) and fees rolling in.

I have a negative view of the idea for a couple of reasons. I already see a huge gulf between what I (think I reasonably) expect of my students in terms of engagement, study skills, intellectual curiosity etc and what they are actually capable of/willing to put in. If we were routinely accepting much younger students into upper division classes then I see this getting worse. It is already a joke that some of the students are at university at all (honestly, you would be appalled at their lack of skills and intellectual engagement).

Secondly, from the view of the students there is (or should be) a substantial difference between the teacher-directed work that they are doing at high school and the self-directed study they should be doing at university. Only the best of my students even seem to understand that there is a difference, let alone why self-directed study is so important at undergraduate (and graduate level). I think we are not doing our students much of a favour by shortening the time they have to get their heads round that difference.

(Ugh -can you tell I've had a long morning teaching?!)

I really have to agree with you. I've been saying for a long time that I am totally appalled at the lack of basic skills of college students. I've done some student teaching and really have no idea how some of the students got out of high school based on their inability to comprehend reading material and write (this goes for answering questions in short form and also writing papers). These students have since graduated from college... It's really shocking. Granted, this points to a larger problem in our education system as a whole, but still... it's a problem.

[MontrealMum]

I think that there are both pros and cons to something like this, many of which have been articulated by pp.

I took college classes for college credit way back in the 80's (I'm old!). They were free of charge because I did it at the local JC which was part of my public school system at the time. Those credits, coupled with CLEP credits and testing out of some lower level courses (at my uni) had me starting at sophomore level, basically. In my case this was wonderful because my parents had budgeted for 4 years regardless, so I was able to explore outside of my major more and to do overseas study, rather then be hampered by having to complete some of the lower level gen. ed. and intro courses.

Back when my district was doing this it was a way to offer higher level courses for the small number of students that needed them, without doing so in the highschools. Honestly, I think it was a moneysaving decision. 30 kids (from 5 h/s) slotted into a few 8am Calculus classes at the JC rather than offering full Calculus at 5 different h/s across the city would have been cheaper. I do think that the disadvantage of this is the highschools are not being held responsible for providing the programs themselves, or for teaching to the level that they ought to be. The advantage is that kids stuck in a crappy district with poor funding aren't being penalized.

Another disadvantage is the age difference and the social aspect. I was 17 when taking college courses...with college students who were 20ish. This is because most of the college kids who were taking the types of courses we GATE students took were in their final year...or even older. This wasn't an issue in my case, but I can see how it could be.

[hoodlims]

If a kid wants to do it and is successful in these classes, I think it is a good thing. Many students just aren't getting enough from their local high schools. I am/was a high school teacher who also taught AVID for the senior class. Part of my job was to work with kids on college applications and financial aid. I had a student who did this, and she was such a hot commodity for colleges because she was taking a variety of classes, juggling both that and HS, and very successful. Compared to the other kid I had in class who was #1 in his class, super smart but didn't do anything other than AP classes, she was the better choice because she proved she was versatile and could handle it.

The only problem is when you are applying for certain schools, it was a little tough to list all of your classes and get your transcripts in order.

[m448]

MontrealMum I just read your post and remembered something. Students who are in advanced courses usually don't start at the high school level. I was taking high school math classes over summer school in 7th an 8th grade so there were then 4 high school freshmen total (including me) taking precalc which meant we were in honors classes with juniors and seniors. Definitely made for an awkward moment when the teacher made a freshman joke and then said, "so any freshmen here?" and I raised my hand.

I agree that even if it doesn't take the total of 2 years off the degree it's helpful in moving out awful prereqs done cattle call style. I went into college with calculus, physics, chemistry and foreign language done. I did go to a top private university and they did ask us to take the CLEP for placing in some upper level math but it was no problem and I'd rather take an afternoon that doing the class all over again before moving onto something more advanced.