If you are wondering why education is going down the tubes…(long post)

[lucybabymamma]

Sorry for the long post, but I have to share my experience because I really do not think people are understanding the situation in schools right now and how dire the next elections are.

Here is our story:
My husband and I both have master’s degrees and both felt called to use them in schools – him as a high school counselor, me as an elementary school teacher. When we decided that I would be a SAHM, we tried living on one income for over a year on his salary. While we knew there would be sacrifices, we thought we could make it….That was before his school district was unable to pass a $20 a year tax increase the last two elections.

This is NOT a low socio-economic district – it is an upper-middle class school district.

Now, he has been on a pay freeze for over 5 years while our insurance costs have more than doubled. The difference between his salary and the salary at a nearby school district (same experience, etc) is over $20, 000 PER YEAR. There are three more bills on the ballot this election (two for his district and one for the state) and those look unlikely to pass, too, which in that case -- he will be out of a job.
I don’t think the parents in our district actually realize that that there have been 5 years of “unseen” cuts because this is the first year they are paying for school buses and all athletics. But at this point, class sizes are up to 50 students at the high school level and 40 children at the elementary school. My husband actually had a meeting with a concerned parent because her son did not have a Biology book to study at home. Yes, my husband had to say, there are NO books to take home for studying.

Did I mention this is NOT a low socio-economic district – it is an upper-middle class school district?

Amid all this, there is talk of paying teachers based on performance. You mean, you are already not paying them for cost of living, you are nearly doubling their class size while reducing any/all resources, then are expecting performance to improve? Or, maybe you just don’t want to actually end up paying teachers? And, although we would welcome ANY pay increase, these "raises" would not take place until nearly three years from now and ONLY if the next elections are favorable.

Okay, sorry for the long post, but here is my main point:

This isn’t an unusual situation. The other districts in the area are just a few years, or AN ELECTION, away from the same thing happening to them.

And, this is NOT a low socio-economic district – it is an upper-middle class school district -- and it could soon be yours.

If you live in a district that has bills on the ballot for more money –
think very, very HARD before voting no.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

Very frustrating in our district too! But very similar to my families cost increases in private sector (small business owner). I don;t think my DH has taken an increase in 8 years. Curious as to why you think pay should not be tied to performance, however?

[m448]

My sister was a teacher in Florida before moving up here where they were trying to tie performance to pay. Best case scenario a teacher's pay is dependent on the performance of 30 individuals with varying abilities, background and potential. At worst, teachers begin teaching to the test EVEN MORE than before. As a parent (I'm a homeschooler) I would be very leary of linking those two.

[ahisma]

I agree completely. My DH is a teacher and has taken massive pay cuts through salary decreases and increased health care costs. In the past two years he has lost over $12,000 in annual salary. We actually had to consider pulling DS2 from preschool this year because we didn't know if we could afford it. Right now we are struggling to find money for an OT eval that we can't get covered by our insurance. Great, huh? A teacher can't afford to provide for his kids' educational needs.

Meanwhile, his class sizes are increasing. He teaches English - the amount of time that it takes to grade essays from six overloaded classes is mindboggling. People seem to think that he does that at school? Nope, he's *teaching* at school. Grading and prepping is all at home. If he does have extra time during the day it's spent doing something like trying to round up a desk for yet another student in an already packed classroom.

He's in an urban school, but DD is in an upper middle class school - ranked #3 in the state. She is missing textbooks for many classes. We print copious amounts of materials at home because the school can't afford to. Frankly, we can barely afford it either. We live in what is probably the least expensive house in the district, because we know the value of her education. Oh, and we print materials for DH's class at home too, AND buy many needed supplies that otherwise would just not be available.

Yet, we have heated sidewalks and a city arborist. Nice to see the priorities, eh?

[lucybabymamma]

Very frustrating in our district too! But very similar to my families cost increases in private sector (small business owner). I don;t think my DH has taken an increase in 8 years. Curious as to why you think pay should not be tied to performance, however?

Do you think it's fair to offer "raises" (really just cost of living increases) for student performance when class size is double what it should be, teachers have no resources to do their jobs and there are no books for students to study from?
It would be like taking away a fireman's uniform, taking away all his backup, turning on the water hose only at half power and then only paying him if he finds a way to put out the fire. Oh, and all of that should be okay with him because his job is FUN.

[ahisma]

Very frustrating in our district too! But very similar to my families cost increases in private sector (small business owner). I don;t think my DH has taken an increase in 8 years. Curious as to why you think pay should not be tied to performance, however?

Actually, many teachers have effectively taken a pay cut.

As far as the performance pay, personally I have some real concerns with the quantification methods used. My DH teaches a population that is very transient. Many kids do not remain in the same school district. He is, IMO, a driven and excellent teacher. He is highly educated, well regarded, and truly connects with the students. He pushes them to succeed. For some of those students, that success may be that, in 11th grade, they finally attempt to read a novel for the first time. 11th grade.

Under a merit pay situation, what teachers will consider teaching in his district? Do those students deserve highly qualified teachers too? Oh, and don't forget the "perks" like having students arrested right out of the classroom, breaking up gang fights in the hallway, and having shots fired at the football game. Not sure what kind of teachers will sign up for that gig, knowing that it comes with a massive pay cut to an already pittance of a salary.

[wendmatt]

Its a dreadful situation that makes me sick to my stomach. I'm going to college to become a teacher right now and I wonder if I am making a big mistake....but I love being in the classroom, so if I can get a job after all the $4 billion cuts here in TX, I'll be happy. I 'm heartsick that people are sitting by and allowing all these cuts to education, these children are the future of the country. Rick Perry refuses to increase a single cent on taxes and would rather every school lost it's librarian aide so children no longer have free rein to go and check out books, they can go once a week, some schools have to share a librarian so the library is closed half of the time. Teachers work bloody hard and get repaid like you said. Paying on performance is a sure way to increase an already fraught situation, no one will want the underachievers in their class, the great teachers that work with the needy children will not want to do that in case they get paid according to their children's test scores. UGH, wake up politicians, our children need good schools.

[citymama]

OP, thank you to you and your DH for the important work you do. Incredibly incredibly valuable and yet so under-valued and appreciated. I wish we as a society valued and paid our teachers more.

[JTsMom]

ITA with the above, but you also can have the flip side, where performance must come up a certain %. Pretty hard to do if you're students are already at the top, right? You can see that reflected in the grading system some states use. Why should teachers stay at the good schools in that case? Either way, performance pay is a bad idea.

[lucybabymamma]

ITA with the above, but you also can have the flip side, where performance must come up a certain %. Pretty hard to do if you're students are already at the top, right? You can see that reflected in the grading system some states use. Why should teachers stay at the good schools in that case? Either way, performance pay is a bad idea.

True! And if your child is a high performer amid lower performers in a class of 40 you can be sure they will not be receiving much attention/support.

[wellyes]

ITA with the above, but you also can have the flip side, where performance must come up a certain %. Pretty hard to do if you're students are already at the top, right? You can see that reflected in the grading system some states use. Why should teachers stay at the good schools in that case? Either way, performance pay is a bad idea.

Right. I think the problem is that performance doesn't matter, only IMPROVEMENT matters. Our state is very education oriented has lots of high performing schools that regularly fail to improve because they're at their edge. It's a dumb measurement system.


I work in corporate America and regularly see the scorecards that companies measure their groups by. And let me tell you, there is a whole lot of "sympathetic math". Companies set the standards that they must live up to- they tend to set attainable goals, and reset the goals (in other words, completely rewrite them) every few years. In many measures it is easy to appear to be constantly improving in the private sector. If they all had to live up to the same standards, across the nation and across industries, it would be a bloodbath.

Of course, the real way private companies and industry measure themselves is by profit and revenues. That's a concrete measure with real consequences. Obviously schools can't do anything like that --- because they aren't part of the for-profit system. Yet. Thank goodness.

[maestramommy]

We have something similar going in our district. Teacher raises (cost of living only) have failed to pass for the 2nd year in a row. the K class size has gone up considerably in one school because one of the teachers was either laid off, or retired and was not replaced. A number of cuts were made because our state legislature want to contribute less and less each year to the towns for education. And the percentage in cuts is very significant year by year. Our particular district is considered one of the top in the state, and our property taxes reflect that. Yet even though it is a drop in the bucket compared to towns in other states, some of the residents are grousing about the way taxes have gone up. There's even a taxpayers association that comes out to vote in droves every year against almost everything that will raise property taxes.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

I do think somehow teaching positions need to be tied to the teachers performance. In my district when there are cuts the first to go are ALWAYS the new teachers who can not possibly always be the weakest. I agree that teachers are way underpaid and always vote to pass whatever levy is put on the table.

[Hawkeyewife]

We have lived in two different school districts in two different states due to my husband's job and my kids have attended/attend 3 elementary schools (one charter school, and now a neighborhood elem and a full time gifted school.)

I guess we have been VERY lucky. The teachers in our district are paid well, have supplies and parents and PTAs that support them financially and in the classroom. I don't want to sound braggy, but my kids have smart boards, computers, I-Pads etc in their classrooms, art and science labs, music enrichment, PE everyday etc... and we haven't lived in very rich or exclusive neighborhoods (comfortably middle class.)

My sister lives in the Northern VA and just finished a Master's in Ed in the spring after living overseas for many years and not working (Undergrad in Art History) and was hired 2 days before the beginning of the school year making $50k teaching a 4th grade class. Her two kids (2nd and K also attend the school.) So far, so good, she got lesson plan help from a neighbor that has been a teacher for some time and she hasn't spent a cent of her own money on school related items. I know my sister hasn't been teaching very long, but so far its not THAT hard, at least for her. These are her words...

Maybe we are in the minority. If we move to an area with less desirable schools, I plan on home schooling.

Maybe it due to the fact that we move so frequently due to DHs job, but is it out of the question to move to an area that pays better/appreciates their teachers etc. My sister got a job in a very competitive area about a month after coming back to the US, so it is not impossible.

[ahisma]

My sister lives in the Northern VA and just finished a Master's in Ed in the spring after living overseas for many years and not working (Undergrad in Art History) and was hired 2 days before the beginning of the school year making $50k teaching a 4th grade class. Her two kids (2nd and K also attend the school.) So far, so good, she got lesson plan help from a neighbor that has been a teacher for some time and she hasn't spent a cent of her own money on school related items. I know my sister hasn't been teaching very long, but so far its not THAT hard, at least for her. These are her words...


My DH has a Masters + 30 (30 credits beyond a Master's degree), scads of CEU's (more than required), 16 years in the classroom and will make less than $60K this year after health care costs. Oh, and the health care won't even cover an OT evaluation for DS2. Oh, and no tenure either. He has always gotten an "outstanding" on his evaluations, but that no tenure is still stressful. He's one of the top paid teachers at the school due to seniority and education, which is pretty stressful when they need to make cuts. If he were to move to a different district he'd start at the bottom - $30K / year if we're lucky.

He took on a freelance writing gig to try to help make ends meet, but with his increased class size and the resulting increased grading he doesn't have time to do it so I've been doing it.

I guess this makes me sound pretty bitter - I'm not really. He is an excellent teacher and truly loves the classroom. It's just getting harder and harder to actually live on a teacher's salary, which stinks. It just sucks to see him feel so under-appreciated at what should be the prime of his career.

[Clarity]

My sister lives in the Northern VA and just finished a Master's in Ed in the spring after living overseas for many years and not working (Undergrad in Art History) and was hired 2 days before the beginning of the school year making $50k teaching a 4th grade class. Her two kids (2nd and K also attend the school.) So far, so good, she got lesson plan help from a neighbor that has been a teacher for some time and she hasn't spent a cent of her own money on school related items. I know my sister hasn't been teaching very long, but so far its not THAT hard, at least for her. These are her words...



I just wanted to comment that $50,000 a year didn't really seem like a lot when you compare cost of living. Is your sister married? I would think that trying to raise children on $50,000 a year would be pretty challenging in the No. Virginia area unless you are 1/2 of a dual income. In my lower COL area, that $50,000 equates to about a $32,500 a year annual salary. A reasonable starting salary, but far less than someone with an advanced degree would wish to make, I'm sure. I wouldn't consider that "middle class", would you?

[wellyes]

We are talking about $50k for someone without professional experience. A very reasonable starting salary for someone fresh out of school, and I assume it is 20somethings who are usually in that spot of getting that starting wage.

Still, I don't buy the argument that teachers are terribly underpaid based on them having grad degrees. Because a teaching masters is kinda like an MBA imo - very common and not particularly difficult to accomplish. There is a reason engineers and scientists make more starting out with just a BS.

[ahisma]

We are talking about $50k for someone without professional experience. A very reasonable starting salary for someone fresh out of school, and I assume it is 20somethings who are usually in that spot of getting that starting wage.

Still, I don't buy the argument that teachers are terribly underpaid based on them having grad degrees. Because a teaching masters is kinda like an MBA imo - very common and not particularly difficult to accomplish. There is a reason engineers and scientists make more starting out with just a BS.

Respectfully, teaching is a damn hard profession, done well. I graduated from law school with high honors and I know for a fact that I couldn't hack it as a teacher.

[bubbaray]

Still, I don't buy the argument that teachers are terribly underpaid based on them having grad degrees.




:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

[wellyes]

Oh I totally agree that the job is extremely difficult - I could not do it. I truly was just commenting that the degree programs are often not that challenging, especially compared to technical or science-based advanced degrees. Like MBAs, anyone who wants one and is willing to pay for it can get it. Not to say it's not work, but the entry bar is pretty low and the success rate is very high, which tarnishes the professional prestige of the degree.

[crayonblue]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

Oh my. I've typed several responses but keep deleting. I'll let the teachers on here take a stab at this!

[Clarity]

I respectfully disagree with absolutely everything that you have said here, Melissa. I'm going to extrapolate a bit b/c my dh is a University professor not k-12 but the facts are just the same.

First of all, teachers are not paid for 3 months vacation. My dh is paid for 9 months of work. He chooses to have the pay for those 9 months spread over 12 months so that he has a consistent paycheck.

Secondly, I think it's entirely innaccurate to broadly claim that teachers do not work past 8-3p.m. That may be more often the case with some teachers (grade and subject depending), but I promise that is not the case as students get older and homework becomes more complex. My dh spends HOURS at home grading papers and keeping up with the readings that he has assigned. HOURS.

Additionally, a GOOD teacher does not create a curriculum and then simply follow that curriculum for the next 30 years. A good teacher evaluates the successes and challenges of each year and is always developing their curriculum and evolving as a teacher.

Finally, I think teachers can be making pretty good money, yes. But they are constantly battling the perception that they make "too much" or that they're "benefits are too good". What is that? We should be paying our educators well because paying them well would help ensure that the field of education ISN'T second place to getting into some other professional school. That alone would attract better candidates.

[bubbaray]

Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time hours. 8:30-3pm is part time hours in law. I know HS teachers IRL and none of them are working at night. None. They do not mark papers or prep for the next day at night -- they get blocks of time during 8:30-3pm to do that.

Teachers here rarely *develop* their own curriculum. They can add to the standard one, but the curricula here are very detailed. I personally know teachers who are consistently highly rated who have used the same curricula for 25+ yrs of teaching. One teacher friend told me that and laughed about it.

I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve a fair wage and decent benefits. I just don't think they deserve 6 figure incomes with 3m vacation during the year. Nor do they deserve a 20% wage increase in one year or 10 days off if a friend (not a relative) dies. Or 5 more pro-D days (so they can play Scrabble with their co-workers).

We have a teachers strike on here right now (more of a work to rule) and there is ZERO public support for the teachers. People are just completely horrified when they find out what the current contract and the demands of the teachers union are all about. The media is having a field day. My teacher friends are embarrased by the union demands and they fear with all the media coverage, they are going to see severe wage and benefit concessions.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

Melissa, you seem to be able to find time to post and read BBB during work :)

[vludmilla]

I am going to ignore the more offensive parts of some of the previous posts.
I am not a teacher but I do work in a public school.

I have worked for 7 years in a very affluent school district in the most highly taxed county in the country, just outside of NYC. I still do not make a 6 figure salary and I have more graduate education than most teachers and therefore I earn more than a teacher with the same years of experience. Teachers here make 100k after about 15-20 years of teaching, so it should not be implied that all teachers are earning "6 figures".

I am expected to be at work at 7:30 and work until 3 and this is STANDARD at all the schools around here. I don't think 8:30 to 3 is at all the norm.

I work from home regularly. I give parents my cell phone number so that they can call me when it is convenient for them at night or in the morning before school when they can't get their kid out of bed to come to school.

I am making an effort to leave at 3pm this year while DD is in kindergarten but in previous years I regularly stayed at work until 4-5pm and I write ALL psychological reports AT HOME.

[JoyNChrist]

Teachers in my parish start out at $32K. I'm not sure what that's at by the time they retire, but I guarantee it's nowhere near six figures.

If teachers made six figure salaries, I'd be putting my Spanish Ed degree to good use instead of going back to school.

If the teachers you know are making $100K+ a year and only working 8-3:30, you're comparing apples to oranges given the situation of many (probably most) teachers in the U.S. I'm not discounting your opinion given the situation you seem to be in, but most people in this thread aren't talking about teacher salaries anywhere near what you're discussing.

[fivi2]

Maybe this is different in Canada, but I have never heard of a teacher making 6 figures. I just looked up my district and it tops out near 70k. With 40 years and a phd.

I don't think it is possible to convince someone who has never taught that it is harder than it looks. I have been a teacher and a lawyer and both are hard in different ways. I truly couldn't say one is "harder".

I think tying to performance doesn't work. Why should a teacher be graded on the performance of a student who transfers in 2 dyas before a test? Or a student who spent the night inl a shelter? Or a student who has been abused that morning before school?

But on the flip side, my husband (not a teacher) also hasn't had a raise in years, worked longer hours at 80% pay for two of those years until we dexided I could no noger sahm. So it isn,t just teachers struggling right now.

(Typing on my stupid phone)

[tribe pride]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

The thing that is difficult in conversations like this is that teaching/teacher experiences differ so widely. The situation you describe above is very similar to the one in which I grew up- working class town in which the teachers were the highest paid people, many making $75K +, leaving school as soon as the final bell rang, many unmotivated to do much to improve their teaching in the classroom (i.e. just going through the motions), and so forth. In that situation, yes, other people would just roll their eyes when the teachers complained about things.

HOWEVER, my DH is also a teacher, and his experience is NOTHING like what you describe. He has 2 MAs from a prestigious school, coaches 2 sports and advises another school organization. He leaves for work around 7:30 and comes home about 6:00 when he is not coaching (2 months), and comes home between 7:00 and 10:00 when he is coaching (8 months). And then spends several hours per night grading, emailing parents, etc. Yes he gets 2 months off in the summer and an extended Christmas break, but he spends quite a bit of that working hard to improve his classes- revising lecture notes, attending conferences, reading books on pedagogy and the subject matter he teaches. DH loves his job, but it is HARD. A lot harder then many people realize. Not that other jobs aren't also demanding, but teaching is mentally exhausting and extremely time consuming if done well. For the amount of time he puts in, he gets paid peanuts.

I think it's a darn shame that teaching isn't respected enough in our society to pay good teachers what they're worth. Starting salaries of $32,000, which is common in our area (middle COL), are not enough to support a middle class family, particularly on one income. IME, many people think that it's great when others decide to become teachers, but they'd never do it themselves because of all the crud that teachers have to put up with, along with the lousy pay. I do think that that in theory performance pay can be a good thing, because I don't think that good teachers should have anything to fear from it, and it could help to motivate teachers who are more inclined to just coast on not put much effort into their jobs. As you say, many teachers try to milk the system, and they should be held accountable and weeded out, so that highly motivated teachers can succeed and be compensated for their efforts. But in reality, I don't know what pay based on job performance would or should look like. There is so much bureaucracy involved with public schools and teaching that I doubt this will happen any time soon. But I firmly believe that schools are underfunded, and that teaching as a profession is undervalued. Done well, it is very, very hard.

ETA: I grew up in an area with a powerful teachers union, and that clearly affected teacher's attitudes toward their jobs. We currently live in a non-unionized area, which helps explain the lower pay and longer hours in this area. I'm by no means anti-union, but I think that often unions don't necessarily have the teachers' or the the students' best interests at heart.

[BabyBearsMom]

We have lived in two different school districts in two different states due to my husband's job and my kids have attended/attend 3 elementary schools (one charter school, and now a neighborhood elem and a full time gifted school.)

I guess we have been VERY lucky. The teachers in our district are paid well, have supplies and parents and PTAs that support them financially and in the classroom. I don't want to sound braggy, but my kids have smart boards, computers, I-Pads etc in their classrooms, art and science labs, music enrichment, PE everyday etc... and we haven't lived in very rich or exclusive neighborhoods (comfortably middle class.)

My sister lives in the Northern VA and just finished a Master's in Ed in the spring after living overseas for many years and not working (Undergrad in Art History) and was hired 2 days before the beginning of the school year making $50k teaching a 4th grade class. Her two kids (2nd and K also attend the school.) So far, so good, she got lesson plan help from a neighbor that has been a teacher for some time and she hasn't spent a cent of her own money on school related items. I know my sister hasn't been teaching very long, but so far its not THAT hard, at least for her. These are her words...

Maybe we are in the minority. If we move to an area with less desirable schools, I plan on home schooling.

Maybe it due to the fact that we move so frequently due to DHs job, but is it out of the question to move to an area that pays better/appreciates their teachers etc. My sister got a job in a very competitive area about a month after coming back to the US, so it is not impossible.

Northern, VA is a different story than most of the country. We have a very low unemployment rate here and many towns spend a lot of money funding the schools. That is not the case in most of the country.


Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time hours. 8:30-3pm is part time hours in law. I know HS teachers IRL and none of them are working at night. None. They do not mark papers or prep for the next day at night -- they get blocks of time during 8:30-3pm to do that.

Teachers here rarely *develop* their own curriculum. They can add to the standard one, but the curricula here are very detailed. I personally know teachers who are consistently highly rated who have used the same curricula for 25+ yrs of teaching. One teacher friend told me that and laughed about it.

I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve a fair wage and decent benefits. I just don't think they deserve 6 figure incomes with 3m vacation during the year. Nor do they deserve a 20% wage increase in one year or 10 days off if a friend (not a relative) dies. Or 5 more pro-D days (so they can play Scrabble with their co-workers).

We have a teachers strike on here right now (more of a work to rule) and there is ZERO public support for the teachers. People are just completely horrified when they find out what the current contract and the demands of the teachers union are all about. The media is having a field day. My teacher friends are embarrased by the union demands and they fear with all the media coverage, they are going to see severe wage and benefit concessions.

I don't live in Canada, so maybe y'all pay your teachers a lot better than we do here in the US, but I don't know a single teacher in this country who makes a 6-figure salary (excluding administrators). My Mom was a teacher for nearly 30 years in Connecticut, the state that typically has the highest paid teachers, and she did not make close to six-figures. My mom went to work each morning before 7am and stayed until 5pm. She brought homework home to grade. She updated her lesson plans annually and spent tons of time in the summer in her classroom setting it up for her students. She took great pride in making her classroom a beautiful and inviting place for her students to ensure that she got the year off on the right foot. She took classes every year to stay up to date and maximize her efficacy of a teacher. She touched the lives of hundreds of children and brought about a love of reading, writing, science and math.

Teachers work very hard for a pay that really is not sufficient. They deal with disturbed children, dreadful parents, politics of school administration and absolutely no respect from most of the public. I switched out of the Education program at my undergrad in my junior year to pursue an accounting degree because of these harsh realities. And yet, teachers perform what, IMHO, is the most important profession in the world. What could be more important than teaching our precious children? Teachers are heroes. They are smart people who could have done anything as a career but instead choose to work for low pay and no respect because they believe they can make a difference with children. They deserve appropriate wages but more than that they deserve our respect.

[JTsMom]

I've never met a teacher who makes 6 figures. Here's the pay scale for the county I used to sub in.

http://www.nctq.org/docs/28-07_6859.pdf

Starting salary=38.500
10 years experience=41,711
20 years=62.677
If you have a PhD, you can add a whopping $8,000 to your salary. Some incentive, huh?

In my current county, a first year teacher makes 35,924. 10 years will get you 45,313. 20 years=52,520. I've also never met a teacher who doesn't grade at night, doesn't work weekends, or who takes leisurely breaks during the day. They are there before school starts in the morning, have meetings and parent conferences after school, and typically have to monitor recess and/or lunch, as well as pick-ups, at least once a week. I think a more typical workday is 7-5, with some work done in the evenings.

I think the most effective things we could do would be to increase teacher training, set the standards for certification higher, and to pay a more competitive salary that would reflect those higher standards. We need reasonably sized classrooms, aides for classrooms that need them, and accommodations for students that need those. We need continue teacher training, and we need to use evidence-based methods to teach our kids. We need to get rid of the time wasters, and the busy work. All of those things take money, and nobody wants to foot the bill, especially not the high ranking folks who the real money goes to.

My BA is in psychology. When I finished that, I went back to school to take the classes I needed to be certified to teach K-6. Most of the classes were a total joke compared to those I had to take to earn my BA. It's hard to attract the best and the brightest to teaching when the training is inadequate, the pay is bad, the demands are constantly increasing, and the support is continually decreasing. If we continue to add hoops for teachers to jump through, especially when what we're asking of them is only partially in their control, before you know it, we'll be left with a few extremely dedicated people, and a lot of people who couldn't hack it in any other profession. Is that who you want teaching your kids?

[Jo..]

When I was doing taxes in NYC, it was not uncommon for me to see trash collectors, subway workers, and janitors that made over 100k with overtime. And this was 10 years ago.

It disgusts me that someone with an education, who has made sacrifices of both time (years) and money (tens of thousands of dollars), cannot earn more than someone who picks up my garbage.

[wendibird22]

DH works in a K-5 building. He's tenured and been at this particular district for 12yr (15yr total teaching exp). He makes $58K which is a bit higher than others with his yrs exp because he has 2 MAs. He works from 7-4 (only leaving then because he has daycare pick up duty). After the girls are in bed he works minimally 2hrs each night. He works late 1night a week with some after school program, PTA, or district meeting. He has 15mins for lunch, no breaks, no planning periods. He's minimally working a 55hr week. Often more. There is no professional development training. His building principal runs a "midnight madness" day a few times a month which keeps the school open until midnight so that teachers can go home, have dinner with their families, put their kids to bed, and then come back and finish work in their classrooms. More than 75% of the teachers attend midnight madness.

Things are so different in different areas of the country and CA. It's hard to generalize. But, in my little neck of the woods I believe the teachers work darn hard and deserve a fair wage and good benefits. After all, they are entrusted with our future. A teacher spends as much, if not more, time with my kids than I do during a week. I want them to be at their absolute best 100% and am willing to pay more in taxes to ensure that.

[ahisma]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

No teacher is paid for summer and breaks. Paid vacation does not exist for teachers, regardless of seniority.

Frankly, the teachers who you describe sound like pretty lousy teachers. Outside of gym teachers, I don't know a single teacher who doesn't take grading home, and I know many. I don't know any who get breaks during the day, unless you count trying to wolf down a sandwich while helping a student catch up on an assignment is counts as a break. After 16 years, my DH still creates new curriculum constantly.

Outside of the school day (6:45 am - 3:00 pm for teachers in his district - that's 8.25 hours), he works at home answering emails from students and parents (upwards on 20 a day), developing new curriculum, grading papers, writing tests, reading books to evaluate for class use, doing continuing ed work (much of it non-mandatory), and heading a committee at his school with teachers focused on evaluating various teaching methods to improve their teaching. At minimum, he works another 20 hours a week from home.

If he stays in the classroom, he's pretty much maxed out his income potential - at under $60 K.

As for it being a cakewalk, I encourage you to spend a day in the classroom. Not as a parent aide, but in the role of a teacher. Unless you've taught, you don't have a clue how hard that is.

To return to the OP - I'd argue that education is going down the tubes due to lack of respect for teachers. Case in point.

[jse107]

As for it being a cakewalk, I encourage you to spend a day in the classroom. Not as a parent aide, but in the roll of a teacher. Unless you've taught, you don't have a clue how hard that is.



Well said and very true. And remember, we must be all things to all children--no matter what they come in the doors with/without. And truthfully, try working with demanding parents for while. At least with litigation there are defined rules.

[Trigglet]

Oh goodness, this is a corker of a thread - I've had to take a couple of breaths...

I'm from a family of teachers, and at present my mother teaches elementary and my brother is a high-school science teacher. My mother has been teaching for nearly forty years and she is at the top of scale (at the equiv. of about $50k). Both deal with extraordinary demands in addition to those presented by actually teaching. My mother regularly has to deal with kids whose parents forget to feed them/get them properly dressed (she keeps a stash of new underpants in her desk for the kids whose parents seem incapable of this task). My brother is recovering from a broken rib from breaking up a fight in his classroom, during which he had a chair thrown at his head whilst being called a f%^&*$g c*&t. My brother earns about $37k.

If you have not been a teacher you have no conception (and I mean NONE) of how hard, unremitting and thoroughly exhausting a job it is. DH and I both teach at university level and it's a cakewalk compared to what my brother deals with. Oh and did I mention that he teaches in London - one of the most expensive cities in the world?

I find the PP's post frankly offensive. I'm not going to stoop to the level of slinging mud at lawyers in general, questioning your commitment and whether you deserve your pay, but really it wouldn't be more than you deserve in response to such a short-sighted, mean and ill-informed post.

ETA: Oh yes, and this year my mother has a child in her class (of 9 year olds) who is so severely developmentally challenged that he is incontinent. He has no special teaching assistant, so the teaching aide they have (who is also pitifully paid - about $21k) has to deal with this child's very special needs on top of trying to help with the rest of the class. Do you have to deal with incontinence in your day job, Melissa? I hope not.

[wellyes]

When I was doing taxes in NYC, it was not uncommon for me to see trash collectors, subway workers, and janitors that made over 100k with overtime. And this was 10 years ago.

It disgusts me that someone with an education, who has made sacrifices of both time (years) and money (tens of thousands of dollars), cannot earn more than someone who picks up my garbage.
I'd rather be a teacher than a garbageman, personally! And, I also don't view going to college and grad school as sacrificing, at all. Having done both I feel very lucky, even with my tens ofthousands of dollars gone. I was able to find personal enrichment from it, plus my investment in education has produced a lifetime of career dividends.

I do think NYC salaries are in a whole different world. Most janitors are not making six figures.

[Multimama]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period.

I just can't believe that someone would say this. Have you ever *tried* teaching???

[Globetrotter]

Melissa, frankly, I think you are describing mediocre teachers. There are a few at every school, IME. That cannot be denied, but the majority do work a lot harder than what you describe and six figure incomes are rare (if non-existent). I always tell my teacher friends there is a reason they get a summer break - can you imagine handling a class full of kids all day? It's a different kind of stress, but you can't say it's easy, and I have great respect for anyone who can do this WELL. Like PPs have said, unless you've BTDT, you don't know what it's really like.

Chunkynickschunkymom, I'm with you on the tenure and pay issue. There has to be a way to do this. I'm sure teachers could come up with a fair methodology. It won't be easy, but I've seen the negative results of following these policies, including losing some of our best and brightest teachers while the worst are allowed to remain.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

"I find the PP's post frankly offensive. I'm not going to stoop to the level of slinging mud at lawyers in general, questioning your commitment and whether you deserve your pay, but really it wouldn't be more than you deserve in response to such a short-sighted, mean and ill-informed post."


I totally agree with this. Melissa's post smacks of superiority IMO. Perhaps a separate thread debating the value of litigators v teachers is in order. Just kidding. Kind of.

[Jo..]

I'd rather be a teacher than a garbageman, personally!


Yeah me too.

But the people who mow your lawn, sweep the halls, and pick up your trash are doing so because that is what they can do. They didn't pursue a higher education out of choice or means, and in no way shape or form should they earn more than those who DID.

[California]

Reading that rather offensive and ignorant post is an excellent example of the attitudes teachers have to put up with. Rather than dwell on that, I think I'll write thank you notes to my kids' teachers letting them know how much I appreciate what a great start my kids' have gotten off to this school year. Maybe surprise them with Starbucks.

Those of us who "get it" have to be the ones to balance out the parents who fail to appreciate all the hard work, dedication and extra hours that go into educating children.

[Hawkeyewife]

I just wanted to comment that $50,000 a year didn't really seem like a lot when you compare cost of living. Is your sister married? I would think that trying to raise children on $50,000 a year would be pretty challenging in the No. Virginia area unless you are 1/2 of a dual income. In my lower COL area, that $50,000 equates to about a $32,500 a year annual salary. A reasonable starting salary, but far less than someone with an advanced degree would wish to make, I'm sure. I wouldn't consider that "middle class", would you?

Yes, my sister is married. Her husband works for the Federal Govt but $50k is pretty good for 9 months of work and no experience and she considers herself pretty darn lucky to score this job so close to her home etc. She doesn't have to be there until 8:30am. No too shabby and she doesn't have to pay for childcare since her kids are there with her. They are what I would consider upper middle class in NoVA, nice house, new cars, fabulous vacations... they are not suffering by any means.

[ILoveLucy]

How much do you all feel would be a fair salary for a teacher?

[JTsMom]

How much do you all feel would be a fair salary for a teacher?
As it stands now, or if standards were raised?

[Ceepa]

Yeah me too.

But the people who mow your lawn, sweep the halls, and pick up your trash are doing so because that is what they can do. They didn't pursue a higher education out of choice or means, and in no way shape or form should they earn more than those who DID.

Well there are those who are doing work beneath their skills or training just to make ends meet. And if someone has skills that are desired, they should be paid accordingly regardless of educational background.

Some posts here have discounted the value of teachers, but let' s not start devaluing other working groups to compensate.

[Green_Tea]

No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period.

Oh, Melissa. I like and respect you so much, but this is SO offensive and hurtful. Teaching is incredibly hard. Imagine dealing with 25 clients, all with completely different needs, at once - all in the same room at the same time, all of them needing ALL of your attention.

I have never met a teacher that works the hours or gets the pay you describe, and I live in the state that pays the very highest salaries in the US.

[KrisM]

No teacher is paid for summer and breaks. Paid vacation does not exist for teachers, regardless of seniority.

If he stays in the classroom, he's pretty much maxed out his income potential - at under $60 K.



I do think that if you don't consider it paid vacation, you need to consider it $60k for 9 months of work or the equivelant of $80k for the year. Does he really not get a pay check at the end of December that cover Christmas? Let's say he's paid twice a month, so he only gets a full check Dec. 15 and then a few days of a check on Dec 31? That would really stink! I do not think that's typical though and my teacher friends do get full checks the full school year, including the ones that include breaks.

I do think teachers should get paid a bit more in many places. But, it depends on where you are. I'm in Michigan and our COL is pretty low, so $60,000 for 9 months and having either an off summer or the ability to bring in more income is not bad at all.

I am sure teachers work hard or not, just like people in many professions. I do know our elementary teachers get quite a bit of time during the day. The kids have 30 min of Chinese daily and a special (gym, art, etc) for 30 min daily, too. Plus the techers have 45 min for lunch. So that's 1.75 hours during the day that they can use to eat, check papers, etc. The school day is 7 hours, so only 5.25 hours is with the kids and the rest is theirs. My DH rarely works overtime (an engineer) and is there 7:30-4:30 daily. If the teachers worked that same time, that would give them 2 more hours of no kids to get stuff done. So for a typical 9 hours of a work day, my DH gets 1 hour of non-work time (of which he takes about 15 min.) and a teacher would get 3.75 hours. I'd think most teachers could check work and eat lunch in that amount of time.

[Jo..]

Ceepa,

Seriously? Manual labor does not warrant the same salary as an educated person that is teaching our children, and DO NOT take me to task for saying so.

My step-father was a farmer and is now a janitor. I do not put the same value on his skill set as I do on say...doctors, teachers, etc.

I worked my ASS off to get through college (at Mcdonalds, as a vet assistant putting multiple animals to sleep daily, at the college snack bar, as a receptionist, etc).

I don't think that stating the simple fact that education SHOULD equal a higher salary discounts them in any way. I have been on both sides.

[lucybabymamma]

Yeah me too.

But the people who mow your lawn, sweep the halls, and pick up your trash are doing so because that is what they can do. They didn't pursue a higher education out of choice or means, and in no way shape or form should they earn more than those who DID.

:yeahthat:
But my DH, who is the one I mentioned in the first post, also had to pick up a job delivering ice in order to pay the bills. He gets to do that while wearing his graduate school baseball cap.

And geez...people are doing a good job defending teachers...too bad we have to...but just to add to the posts in which other women have mentioned that you don't know a teacher's job until you have been one, I heard it described this way once:

There is no other profession where people believe that simply because they have been in a professionals' office they know what it means to do their job.
Do you know how to be a nurse, simply because you have been a patient? Know how to be an architect because you live in a house?

Nearly every person has been a student at one time, but that doesn’t mean every person knows what it means to be a teacher.

What you "see" teachers doing is actually the smallest part of their job.

One parent might think, "Oh, what a cute one-minute song my child is singing in class." Meanwhile that one-minute simple song:

• Meets three different learning standards
• Gives the five children with ADHD in the classroom a chance to move
• Transitions children into the next lesson without any downtime

And that is just one minute, of one day.

[JTsMom]

I do know our elementary teachers get quite a bit of time during the day. The kids have 30 min of Chinese daily and a special (gym, art, etc) for 30 min daily, too. Plus the techers have 45 min for lunch. So that's 1.75 hours during the day that they can use to eat, check papers, etc. The school day is 7 hours, so only 5.25 hours is with the kids and the rest is theirs. My DH rarely works overtime (an engineer) and is there 7:30-4:30 daily. If the teachers worked that same time, that would give them 2 more hours of no kids to get stuff done. So for a typical 9 hours of a work day, my DH gets 1 hour of non-work time (of which he takes about 15 min.) and a teacher would get 3.75 hours. I'd think most teachers could check work and eat lunch in that amount of time.

But that's not typical, and even if the kids are in specials that often, you have to keep in mind that the teacher usually walks them there and back, which eats up 10+ mins for each time. In the schools I've worked in, the kids are in the classroom before the day usually starts- there goes more time. And after school, you're typically supervising the bus lines, doing kiss and ride, etc. Then there are meetings, conferences, etc. A teacher's day is a lot more than just the classroom time.

I'm homeschooling DS1. I spend at least a half an hour prepping each day, and more on the weekends. I spend most of August planning. I don't have papers to grade, parents to meet, in-service training, etc. I only have 1 student, and I can spread things out however I'd like.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

I do think that if you don't consider it paid vacation, you need to consider it $60k for 9 months of work or the equivelant of $80k for the year.

:yeahthat:

Definitely what I was thinking. You can say that teachers don't get paid 10 weeks of summer vacation, 2 weeks of Christmas, 1 week of Spring Break and 1 week of Winter Break (here anyways), but then I think that would put their hourly wage quite high.

Personally, I get a salary and I get 3 weeks of vacation period (+10 holidays, which teachers get holidays which fall during the school year), so if you want to compare my salary (or any typical full time worker salary) to a teachers you would have to adjust my salary down by 20% or teachers' salaries up by 25%.

I'm curious if posters here believe in supply & demand? I was just listening on NPR yesterday, I think, and they were having a segment on a documentary about teachers. One of the thoughts was that colleges are turning out too many teachers. I mean, getting a degree in education is generally thought of as pretty easy. Perhaps teaching itself is hard (and I agree), but the barrier to entry seems rather low.

[Sopamanda]

How disappointing to see someone so educated so ignorant about the educational system. I honestly read the post and then thought "does she HAVE children"?


I have collegiate teaching experience. Different than K-12, yes, but I've taught there too. I entered my tenure track job as professor at $36,000. If I did not ROUTINELY publish, present and attend conferences I would have very quickly lost that job. Summers were not vacations.

Amanda

[Ceepa]

Ceepa,

Seriously? Manual labor does not warrant the same salary as an educated person that is teaching our children, and DO NOT take me to task for saying so.

My step-father was a farmer and is now a janitor. I do not put the same value on his skill set as I do on say...doctors, teachers, etc.

You misread what I wrote, and I will point out that asserting "that is what they can do" could be perceived as demeaning when we don't know the backstory, no?

You are entitled to your opinion about what is unwarranted re: comparing salaries, I simply disagree that we can make blanket statements about it.

[Jo..]

Okay, yeah, I could have phrased that better. But having put myself through college against all odds, I am a little impatient with those who demand high salaries (union etc) for unskilled labor. I am MUCH more sympathetic to our educators.

I got a little annoyed the other day because of a Groupon post...the cost to clean your home was $75 for up to 3 hours (half price). Seriosuly? A house cleaner makes $50 per hour? I charged $10 per hour to clean a house when I was putting myself through school. I don't think (?) teachers make $50 per hour, and that pisses me off.

[buddyleebaby]

Ceepa,

Seriously? Manual labor does not warrant the same salary as an educated person that is teaching our children, and DO NOT take me to task for saying so.

My step-father was a farmer and is now a janitor. I do not put the same value on his skill set as I do on say...doctors, teachers, etc.

I worked my ASS off to get through college (at Mcdonalds, as a vet assistant putting multiple animals to sleep daily, at the college snack bar, as a receptionist, etc).

I don't think that stating the simple fact that education SHOULD equal a higher salary discounts them in any way. I have been on both sides.

Now this thread is making me sad.

Sanitation makes what they do in NYC because it is a yucky, horrible job that no one wants to do, but it has to be done. No, you don't have to go to school for 8 years to be a garbage man, but it is a necessary job (especially in a huge city).

Firefighters are considered "skilled laborers". They get paid what they do because they have a very specific set of skills, and a dangerous job. That again, no one wants.
My brother *could* be a teacher. He was, for a little while. He makes more as a Police Officer, and while I know teaching is hard, I don't know that that's necessarily wrong. His job comes with a whole different set of struggles. It's not fair to even try and compare the two.
Society needs people who are willing to pick up the jobs that no one else will- and sometimes you don't need a graduate degree for those jobs.

ETA:

Okay, yeah, I could have phrased that better. But having put myself through college against all odds, I am a little impatient with those who demand high salaries (union etc) for unskilled labor. I am MUCH more sympathetic to our educators.

I got a little annoyed the other day because of a Groupon post...the cost to clean your home was $75 for up to 3 hours (half price). Seriosuly? A house cleaner makes $50 per hour? I charged $10 per hour to clean a house when I was putting myself through school. I don't think (?) teachers make $50 per hour, and that pisses me off.

Just saw this...I personally get annoyed with what professional athletes make. ; )

[pb&j]

And this whole thread is a great reminder of why I took my degree from an elite college, my two masters degrees, my postgraduate education, and elected not to complete my teaching requirements, and went to work for a software company instead. Teaching *is* easy, when compared to putting up with the bull--- from every possible angle that goes along with it.

[JTsMom]

:yeahthat:

Definitely what I was thinking. You can say that teachers don't get paid 10 weeks of summer vacation, 2 weeks of Christmas, 1 week of Spring Break and 1 week of Winter Break (here anyways), but then I think that would put their hourly wage quite high.

Personally, I get a salary and I get 3 weeks of vacation period (+10 holidays, which teachers get holidays which fall during the school year), so if you want to compare my salary (or any typical full time worker salary) to a teachers you would have to adjust my salary down by 20% or teachers' salaries up by 25%.

I'm curious if posters here believe in supply & demand? I was just listening on NPR yesterday, I think, and they were having a segment on a documentary about teachers. One of the thoughts was that colleges are turning out too many teachers. I mean, getting a degree in education is generally thought of as pretty easy. Perhaps teaching itself is hard (and I agree), but the barrier to entry seems rather low.

Let's look at a teacher with a BA and 5 yrs of experience, and assume they're making about $39K (going of my area), and compare that to the hourly wage of an RN. Reasonably fair comparison, right? Let's say the teacher works 10 hours a dayx190 days a year. I come up with just over $20.52/hour.

Here's the first site I pulled up for RN salaries in the US:
http://www.registerednursern.com/registered-nurse-rn-salary-pay-wages-and-income-of-registered-nurses/

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics lastest data, the average salary of a registered nurse in the United States is $67,720. The average hourly wage of a registered nurse is $32.56."

[MelissaTC]

I come from a family of teachers. My husband comes from a family of teachers. I can not believe I am reading this trash. My FIL had to work a night job and sometimes a weekend job to support his family. And my MIL was a teacher as well. He worked for 30 years in a school in the Bronx. Some of his students were killed, found in the trash dumpster dead from oding, in prison, etc... He worked with kids no one cared about or wanted. To say he didn't work hard is an insult. My aunt has been a K teacher for 30 years in the Bronx as well. She has purchased school supplies for her students every single year because they have none. She loves her kids and mentors them well into high school. She doesn't get paid for that but she does it because if she doesn't, who will?

I need to walk away from this thread because I am pissed.

[spanannie]

Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time hours. .

Where do teachers make 6 figures?

[Jo..]

Alicia,

I am totally, totally sorry that I made you sad. I wish I could take the hurt back.

I was speaking from personal experience, and that is often really skewed. I used to get upset when I did a train conductor's tax return, and he made double what the college professor made.

I do think the salaries of police men, fire fighters, EMT's...etc etc are fair or should be higher. If you put yourself in harms way to help others, God bless you, and I'll vote for a pay increase to the moon and back.

My step-father sweeps the floors because he has no other skill set (other than as a farmer). I don't know what to say here, but I still don't believe that he deserves the same pay as a teacher. I have listened to him bitch about it for 40 years.

I am sorry that I hurt your feelings.

[Cam&Clay]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

I'm gonna have to let this go. I can't even form the words right now.

[Ceepa]

I hear you, Jo. As far as that Groupon rate, I doubt those housekeepers ever saw much more than minimum wage.

[spanannie]

My kids go to a private school, where I'm sure the pay is still not stellar. Every teacher I know tutors year round, in addition to their daytime job, to supplement their income. I receive emails from the teachers on weekends and late at night and they are willing to contact me whenever. They certainly aren't doing this for the money and these are people with multiple degrees, many from elite colleges. This thread upsets me. Sure, there are some cruddy teachers out there that just work the minimum required, but there are many, many more that work hard for our children, making a real impact on their lives, for little pay.

[bubbaray]

Teaching is incredibly hard.


This is what I disagree with. I just don't see it as hard, not relative to medicine, law or nursing (for example).

I can see dealing with 25 children being not *my* cup of tea or possibly stressful for people without the skillset for teaching. But, just like a janitor or garbageman chooses their work (which also wouldn't be my cup of tea), teachers have chosen to work with children. Dealing with 25 children *is* the job.

I see the teachers parking lot at our elementary school (and two other elementary schools I drive by daily, along with a HS I often drive by). The lots are empty at 8am -- school here starts between 8:30-8:40am. So, if they are getting there "early" its within 30 minutes of the bell. Our bell is 2:40pm and by 3pm, the teachers parking lot is mostly empty. My understanding is that the contract hours here are 8:30-3, with a 15 minute coffee (recess) and 30 min lunch. At our school, there is no teacher/student interaction during those times. I've never seen a student in a classroom after school at our school, not once. So, AFAIK, there is no extra help being offered after class by teachers (and its certainly never been discussed with us as parents -- and we are extremely involved in our school and PAC).

If you compare a teacher's work hours to those of a nurse (both 4yr degrees if the nurse has a BN and here rates of pay seem about the same), IMO a nurse works much longer hours -- on individual shifts (mostly 12hrs, some are 8) and over the course of a week. I also see nursing as a much more physical job than teaching. Teachers here don't lift or carry children. They are very hands-off. If a child is incontinent, the teacher d/n deal with that -- a parent is called, the janitor cleans up or a special needs aide deals with it.

My teacher friends tell me that the work is not intellectually hard, after the initial learning curve of the first few years. Perhaps it is physically hard to stand, but I've also been told that teachers no longer stand at the front of the class all day, a lot of the work is more sitting with the children (and this has been my observation over the past 2 yrs).

One of my DDs teachers from last year told me that she and her DH (a HS teacher) go camping the entire 2m summer break. They come home late the night before school starts (so Labor Day Monday). Neither of them are outdoor-ed teachers, so it seems unlikely that their summer camping for 2m is prep time. That type of summer seems to be the norm, from my IRL conversations with teacher friends and casual discussions with teachers in our school.

On the education front, a BEd is 4yrs. If they have a different (non-Ed) bachelors degree, they do an extra year of certification. If they want a Masters, its by correspondence (which, ITA, dilutes the prestige of it being a graduate degree at all), its not like a LOA is needed to do a MEd. So, its not like getting certified to teach is more costly than other jobs.

And, just FTR, it is not that I don't respect or value teachers. My original post in this thread was that it is not a *hard* job. And I still don't believe that. I see teaching as a comparatively very-well paid job with killer benefits.

[mousemom]

Let's look at a teacher with a BA and 5 yrs of experience, and assume they're making about $39K (going of my area), and compare that to the hourly wage of an RN. Reasonably fair comparison, right? Let's say the teacher works 10 hours a dayx190 days a year. I come up with just over $20.52/hour.

Here's the first site I pulled up for RN salaries in the US:
http://www.registerednursern.com/registered-nurse-rn-salary-pay-wages-and-income-of-registered-nurses/

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics lastest data, the average salary of a registered nurse in the United States is $67,720. The average hourly wage of a registered nurse is $32.56."

You cannot compare hourly wages for jobs where one has tremendous benefits and the other does not. Most teachers have excellent pensions and retiree healthcare plans, while most nurses do not. The big issue is that the teacher gets a smaller salary each year, but gets it for 50 years (30 working and 20 in retirement) while the nurse is supposed to use her additional pay while working to fund her retirment. Based on this, the nurse should make a lot more while working.

[elliput]

I see the teachers parking lot at our elementary school (and two other elementary schools I drive by daily, along with a HS I often drive by). The lots are empty at 8am -- school here starts between 8:30-8:40am. So, if they are getting there "early" its within 30 minutes of the bell. Our bell is 2:40pm and by 3pm, the teachers parking lot is mostly empty. My understanding is that the contract hours here are 8:30-3, with a 15 minute coffee (recess) and 30 min lunch. At our school, there is no teacher/student interaction during those times. I've never seen a student in a classroom after school at our school, not once. So, AFAIK, there is no extra help being offered after class by teachers (and its certainly never been discussed with us as parents -- and we are extremely involved in our school and PAC).

What you do not see is all the work the teachers are doing at home. Most teachers can not and do not leave work at work. They have to take home grading. They have to correspond with parents. They have to prep for the next days lessons.

Maybe there is a huge difference between the educations systems in Canada and the US that the teachers there don't have to deal with all BS that US teachers do. IMO, teachers in the US don't get paid nearly enough to educate the next generation of litigators.

[lucybabymamma]

You cannot compare hourly wages for jobs where one has tremendous benefits and the other does not. Most teachers have excellent pensions and retiree healthcare plans, while most nurses do not. The big issue is that the teacher gets a smaller salary each year, but gets it for 50 years (30 working and 20 in retirement) while the nurse is supposed to use her additional pay while working to fund her retirment. Based on this, the nurse should make a lot more while working.

The MANY nurses I know have far superior health plans and better or equally good retirement.
This thread is getting ridiculous.
I never expected to have to defend the intellect or worthiness of educators....Although sadly I guess I now have a better understanding of the polls. How depressing!

[jse107]

This is what I disagree with. I just don't see it as hard, not relative to medicine, law or nursing (for example).

I can see dealing with 25 children being not *my* cup of tea or possibly stressful for people without the skillset for teaching. But, just like a janitor or garbageman chooses their work (which also wouldn't be my cup of tea), teachers have chosen to work with children. Dealing with 25 children *is* the job.

I see the teachers parking lot at our elementary school (and two other elementary schools I drive by daily, along with a HS I often drive by). The lots are empty at 8am -- school here starts between 8:30-8:40am. So, if they are getting there "early" its within 30 minutes of the bell. Our bell is 2:40pm and by 3pm, the teachers parking lot is mostly empty. My understanding is that the contract hours here are 8:30-3, with a 15 minute coffee (recess) and 30 min lunch. At our school, there is no teacher/student interaction during those times. I've never seen a student in a classroom after school at our school, not once. So, AFAIK, there is no extra help being offered after class by teachers (and its certainly never been discussed with us as parents -- and we are extremely involved in our school and PAC).

If you compare a teacher's work hours to those of a nurse (both 4yr degrees if the nurse has a BN and here rates of pay seem about the same), IMO a nurse works much longer hours -- on individual shifts (mostly 12hrs, some are 8) and over the course of a week. I also see nursing as a much more physical job than teaching. Teachers here don't lift or carry children. They are very hands-off. If a child is incontinent, the teacher d/n deal with that -- a parent is called, the janitor cleans up or a special needs aide deals with it.

My teacher friends tell me that the work is not intellectually hard, after the initial learning curve of the first few years. Perhaps it is physically hard to stand, but I've also been told that teachers no longer stand at the front of the class all day, a lot of the work is more sitting with the children (and this has been my observation over the past 2 yrs).

One of my DDs teachers from last year told me that she and her DH (a HS teacher) go camping the entire 2m summer break. They come home late the night before school starts (so Labor Day Monday). Neither of them are outdoor-ed teachers, so it seems unlikely that their summer camping for 2m is prep time. That type of summer seems to be the norm, from my IRL conversations with teacher friends and casual discussions with teachers in our school.

On the education front, a BEd is 4yrs. If they have a different (non-Ed) bachelors degree, they do an extra year of certification. If they want a Masters, its by correspondence (which, ITA, dilutes the prestige of it being a graduate degree at all), its not like a LOA is needed to do a MEd. So, its not like getting certified to teach is more costly than other jobs.

And, just FTR, it is not that I don't respect or value teachers. My original post in this thread was that it is not a *hard* job. And I still don't believe that. I see teaching as a comparatively very-well paid job with killer benefits.

I just don't think that's the norm. There isn't a school near me that has the staff lot empty within 90 minutes of the bell. We're working longer hours, meeting with kids during lunch/recess/planning periods. All the teachers in the county where I work are required to have a Masters degree within 10 years of starting.

I think what makes this a "hard" job, is that it--at least in the US--has become less about teaching and more about providing wraparound social services for children who come to school without parental support and/or guidance. In addition, this is all done with a greater level of accountability than most private sector jobs. Although it's being reworked, NCLB standards are that EVERY child will be 100% proficient by 2014. There's currently no measure of a child's progress--it's a pass/fail system. So the kids in my school who are impacted by autism, TBI, cognitive impairment are measured by the same guidelines as every other child. So now we teach to the test, look at every child as a number in terms of whether we'll make AYP, and mainstream kids who haven't a clue as to what is going on around them. The general ed teacher has to be prepared for students who have special needs, don't speak English, and who are taking care of themselves/siblings at home. Icing on the cake? Teachers are being made out to be villains in education.

Do I agree that teaching programs should be more stringent? Absolutely. That would help raise the level of respect teachers receive. It would help make it more appealing to the best and brightest. However to say teaching isn't hard isn't fair. It's a different kind of hard.

ETA: In regards to pensions, our state (like others) is looking to seriously curb retirement and pension benefits. Teachers are now paying an extra 2% of their paychecks to the state's general fund because they borrowed from our pension fund and it's now underfunded. We call this the "Teacher Tax."

I will say that if I could, I would move to the private sector just to not have to deal with the bull**** that comes from working in a public school. It's not about the kids any more.

[bubbaray]

What you do not see is all the work the teachers are doing at home. Most teachers can not and do not leave work at work. They have to take home grading. They have to correspond with parents. They have to prep for the next days lessons.



Here they get a lot of prep time during the 8:30-3pm hours. At our school, each day has at least one, usually two "specials" (when the classroom teacher would not be with the children). I'm not entirely clearly how it works, but they have contractual in-school prep time (from the last teachers strike). So, they get what should be (according to the union negotiators) sufficient time to mark papers and prep for the next day in class. Of course, this year with the strike, they aren't marking papers or doing report cards at.all, so I'm unclear as to what is going on during their contractual prep time. There is also a union-ban on coaching or any other extracurricular activities (which seem to be mainly in HS).

I entirely accept that my (admittedly jaded) view is based on the situation here. My mother did teach in both the US and Canada, however, and I have no recollection of her doing extra work at home. That was a long time ago, though.

[wellyes]

I got a little annoyed the other day because of a Groupon post...the cost to clean your home was $75 for up to 3 hours (half price). Seriosuly? A house cleaner makes $50 per hour? I charged $10 per hour to clean a house when I was putting myself through school. I don't think (?) teachers make $50 per hour, and that pisses me off.A professional housecleaner is a small business owner, and no small business could survive on $10/hour. Probably a woman who cleans and pays 2 assistants to help, or an owner paying 2-3 workers less than $50/hour each combined..


Teachers are being made out to be villains in education.I absolutely agree with that. Remember the Wisconsin teachers under attack from Gov Walker? I was absolutely astonished how much support came out in favor of the press that attacked the evil of teachers unions. People that don't have anywhere near that anger at the Wall Street businesses that willfully lied and stole and put our nation into a terrible mess for years to come, all for personal profit. But no, it's those teacher unions that really makes people's blood boil. Unbelievable.

[maestramommy]

Reading that rather offensive and ignorant post is an excellent example of the attitudes teachers have to put up with. Rather than dwell on that, I think I'll write thank you notes to my kids' teachers letting them know how much I appreciate what a great start my kids' have gotten off to this school year. Maybe surprise them with Starbucks.

Those of us who "get it" have to be the ones to balance out the parents who fail to appreciate all the hard work, dedication and extra hours that go into educating children.

Yup. I don't have time to post right now, but one thing I will say is that it's the constant total "don't get it-ness" of a teacher's job by none teachers that just makes me see red. Just saying the words, "3 months of paid vacation" shows that some people just.don't.get.it.

[wellyes]

. Just saying the words, "3 months of paid vacation" shows that some people just.don't.get.it.

3 months unpaid leave to be with their kids is a pretty fantastic benefit, though.

[BarbieSmith]

Can I just say that I would far rather vilify the *countless* levels of bureaucracy in the school ADMIN system, rather than the teachers? There is MORE $ going the way of administration than to the teachers.

[daniele_ut]

Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time hours.

Sorry, but my dh makes no where NEAR a six figure salary and routinely works a 50 hour workweek AT school and then adds another 10 hours of private teaching to supplement our income. I won't even get into the prep work he does in the evenings when the kids are in bed.

[larig]

I do think that if you don't consider it paid vacation, you need to consider it $60k for 9 months of work or the equivelant of $80k for the year. Does he really not get a pay check at the end of December that cover Christmas? Let's say he's paid twice a month, so he only gets a full check Dec. 15 and then a few days of a check on Dec 31? That would really stink! I do not think that's typical though and my teacher friends do get full checks the full school year, including the ones that include breaks.

I do think teachers should get paid a bit more in many places. But, it depends on where you are. I'm in Michigan and our COL is pretty low, so $60,000 for 9 months and having either an off summer or the ability to bring in more income is not bad at all.

I am sure teachers work hard or not, just like people in many professions. I do know our elementary teachers get quite a bit of time during the day. The kids have 30 min of Chinese daily and a special (gym, art, etc) for 30 min daily, too. Plus the techers have 45 min for lunch. So that's 1.75 hours during the day that they can use to eat, check papers, etc. The school day is 7 hours, so only 5.25 hours is with the kids and the rest is theirs. My DH rarely works overtime (an engineer) and is there 7:30-4:30 daily. If the teachers worked that same time, that would give them 2 more hours of no kids to get stuff done. So for a typical 9 hours of a work day, my DH gets 1 hour of non-work time (of which he takes about 15 min.) and a teacher would get 3.75 hours. I'd think most teachers could check work and eat lunch in that amount of time.

Teachers are paid for the approximately 180 days they work in a school building. Where I worked I could elect to have my salary spread over the year or take my checks over the period I worked. I always took all my money as soon as I could. Otherwise, the school district just gets the benefit of keeping the teacher's money that they've already earned, essentially getting to earn the interest on the teachers' held salary. They aren't doing teachers any favors spreading the money out, but it's incredibly common, and another way teachers get the shaft.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Sorry, but my dh makes no where NEAR a six figure salary and routinely works a 50 hour workweek AT school and then adds another 10 hours of private teaching to supplement our income. I won't even get into the prep work he does in the evenings when the kids are in bed.

then the fielding of annoyed parent email about x or y. Attending concerts or other activities so your kiddos see you supporting them. on and on. My friend just stopped being a 3rd grade teacher to become the gifted ed. coordinator because there was always more to do with being a homeroom teacher than just teaching. She and every teacher at ds1's school work about 10 hours/ day, maybe more.

Beth

[larig]

And this whole thread is a great reminder of why I took my degree from an elite college, my two masters degrees, my postgraduate education, and elected not to complete my teaching requirements, and went to work for a software company instead. Teaching *is* easy, when compared to putting up with the bull--- from every possible angle that goes along with it.

:applause:

[larig]

I'll add that my father the teacher's pay check was soooo big and fat that he had to paint houses every summer during his "paid vacation."

yeah, I'm a little late to the thread, it would appear.

Oh, and just down I-5 from Vancouver is Seattle. Check out the lousy teacher's salaries down here. (http://www.seattlewea.org/static_content/updatedcertsalary12.pdf) 42,000-81,000. Nowhere near 6 figures. The pay where I spent 9 of my 10 years in the suburbs of Chicago was much higher at the top than this, but you had to have a lot of education (PhD) and a lot of experience to reach the top.

[cuca_]

This thread is sad. I have to say, as a former litigator, that I think teaching is much harder than being an attorney. I am eternally grateful for all the wonderful teachers that my children have had so far, who have not only taught them, but have fueled their love for learning, provided emotional support and watched out for their well being while they are under their care.

We have had our share of not so great teachers, but the good ones far out number the bad ones.

I am of the opinion that teachers are often unappreciated and underpaid, and this thread shows it.

We recently relocated and I was horrified when I found out that there was a 5 year pay increase freeze on teachers salaries. My DD has a magnificent teacher, and I feel awful about this.

[larig]

You cannot compare hourly wages for jobs where one has tremendous benefits and the other does not. Most teachers have excellent pensions and retiree healthcare plans, while most nurses do not. The big issue is that the teacher gets a smaller salary each year, but gets it for 50 years (30 working and 20 in retirement) while the nurse is supposed to use her additional pay while working to fund her retirment. Based on this, the nurse should make a lot more while working.

Um, most teachers pay their own retirement.

[maestramommy]

3 months unpaid leave to be with their kids is a pretty fantastic benefit, though.

Um, you might get to "be" with your kids, but trust me, a goodly time of that "leave" is spent working, getting ready for the coming year. There's no such thing as just recyling the lessons every single year. No teacher worth their salt does that.

I really don't know how WOHP teachers do it. Really I don't. Even if you consider that the school days hours are better, at some point of the day you're going to be working again because you didn't stay after school.

[larig]

Um, you might get to "be" with your kids, but trust me, a goodly time of that "leave" is spent working, getting ready for the coming year. There's no such thing as just recyling the lessons every single year. No teacher worth their salt does that.

I really don't know how WOHP teachers do it. Really I don't. Even if you consider that the school days hours are better, at some point of the day you're going to be working again because you didn't stay after school.

yeah, and like I said upthread, my dad's pay was so low he had to go paint houses to make extra $$. So, it's not like he got to see me any more. ETA: but I did get to see him when I went to the 20+ basketball games he coached (not at practice though) or at the xmas tree farm that my parents started as a fourth source of income. Yeah, he had tons of time. With two parents teaching it's really hard to make it work.

[wellyes]

Um, you might get to "be" with your kids, but trust me, a goodly time of that "leave" is spent working, getting ready for the coming year. There's no such thing as just recyling the lessons every single year. No teacher worth their salt does that.
.

Working when you want, on your own terms. That doesn't sound so terrible from the perspective of someone who is dropping her kids off at daycare or camp at 7:30 and picking them up 10 hours later, very typical from the perspective of a WOHP.


With two parents teaching it's really hard to make it work.

Compared to whom? It's really hard to make it work for most parents.

[buddyleebaby]

No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period.

I think this says it all and I am not going to try and argue otherwise because your mind is made up, but I will say that I don't think making blanket statements about an entire profession is wise.

I have had mediocre teachers and brilliant teachers.

I have met incredibly stupid lawyers and wondered how they ever passed the bar (and I imagine you have too).

I have had amazing nurses (like the one who took care of me when I was in labor) and borderline incompetent nurses.

There is good and bad in every profession.

[larig]

Working when you want, on your own terms. That doesn't sound so terrible from the perspective of someone who is dropping her kids off at daycare or camp at 7:30 and picking them up 10 hours later, very typical from the perspective of a WOHP.



Compared to whom? It's really hard to make it work for most parents.

I never made a comparison to anyone in my post at all. Why does it have to be a contest? Seriously. Many families have it hard. Certainly. I was merely saying that my dad didn't have all the time in the way you portrayed it. He was working many other jobs to supplement his income, because it was relatively low. He was a math teacher and could have made a lot more money putting his math/chemistry degree to use, but he loved teaching. He put up with less money, but he was happy. He will die a very fulfilled man, knowing that he improved the lives of countless people he taught and coached. Certainly that's a big benefit of the job that people haven't mentioned, but it's also a big responsibility.

[bubbaray]

I think this says it all and I am not going to try and argue otherwise because your mind is made up, but I will say that I don't think making blanket statements about an entire profession is wise.

I have had mediocre teachers and brilliant teachers.

I have met incredibly stupid lawyers and wondered how they ever passed the bar (and I imagine you have too).

I have had amazing nurses (like the one who took care of me when I was in labor) and borderline incompetent nurses.

There is good and bad in every profession.


I don't disagree. I wasn't talking about teacher competency and, FTR, I actually think most teachers do an OK or better job at teaching.

My point is, I just don't think its *hard* per se, relative to other professions and the pay & benefits (here at least) are pretty nice. It isn't probably fair to compare to professions like medicine & law that have much longer educational paths, but I think the comparison to nursing is fair. Teaching hours are shorter than nursing shifts, the work isn't physical like nursing.

[shilo]

FACT:
The average starting salary for teachers in our country (USA) is $39,000; the average ending salary—after 25 years in the profession—is $67,000. (source: “Closing the talent gap: Attracting and retaining top third graduates to a career in teaching.” McKinsey & Company, 2010.)


FACT:
Teachers work an average of ten hours per day.
(source: “Status of the American Public Schoolteacher, 2000–2001,” National Education Association Research (Washington, D.C.: National Education Association, 2003), table 44.)


FACT:
92.4 percent of teachers spent their own money on their students or classrooms during the 2007-2008 school year. (source: “Public School Teacher and BIE School Teacher Data Files.” Schools and Staffing Survey (SASS), National Center for Education Statistics, U.S. Department of Education, 2007-2008.)


FACT:
Over the course of a career, teachers make 14 percent less than people in other professions that require similar levels of education. (source: “The Teaching Penalty: An update through 2010.” Economic Policy Institute, 2011)

FACT:
It's widely reported that between 40-50% of teachers in public schools leave the profession within five years in the last 2 decades. High turnover of American teachers costs our country over $7 billion every year. (source: “Teacher Turnover Cost Study,” National Commission on Teaching and America's Future, 2007.)



aaaand just for sh!ts and giggles:

FACT:
In 1970 in New York City, a starting lawyer going into a prestigious firm and a starting teacher (with a masters) going into public education had a differential in their entry salary of about $2,000. Today, including salary and bonus, that starting lawyer makes $160,000, while starting teachers in New York make roughly $45,000. (source: “Closing the talent gap: Attracting and retaining top third graduates to a career in teaching.” McKinsey & Company, 2010.)

FACT: You're right.
No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period.
The only one who could convince you would be yourself... if you actually took the time to EDUCATE yourself on the topic. A good place to start might be this policy paper that takes a comprehensive look at the highest performing educational systems in the world. The results point to the fact that, in these systems, teachers are not just paid more in relation to other professions – THEY ARE ALSO REGARDED MORE HIGHLY IN SOCIETY. Posts like yours that undermine the regard for teachers perpetuates the decline in education in our society and the end result does nothing but hurt a generation of kids... yours and mine included.
http://www.mcgraw-hillresearchfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/pisa-intl-competitiveness.pdf

[larig]

I don't disagree. I wasn't talking about teacher competency and, FTR, I actually think most teachers do an OK or better job at teaching.

My point is, I just don't think its *hard* per se, relative to other professions and the pay & benefits (here at least) are pretty nice. It isn't probably fair to compare to professions like medicine & law that have much longer educational paths, but I think the comparison to nursing is fair. Teaching hours are shorter than nursing shifts, the work isn't physical like nursing.

I'd argue that professions are hard in different ways. For me what was hard about teaching was the emotional toll it took on me. On nights I wasn't bringing home papers to grade I was bringing home my kids' emotional baggage. I was very emotionally invested in my students' success and their at-home problems. You see everything as a teacher. THink about the way the stories you read about peoples' troubles on the BBB affect you on a day-to-day basis, it's amplified when they are children and in your class. Surely, not all teachers are that emotionally invested, but the decent ones are. Most of us truly love your children. That's where teaching is hard. It takes a toll on you, just like parenting can. That is where the burn out comes.

You know what else is hard, not being afforded respect as a professional. Oh, and we are on our feet all day every day (if you're good, you're on the move--keeps discipline problems down). I sometimes had a hard time getting a chance to use the bathroom when I was teaching. You have to monitor the halls in-between classes, so can't go then, so you end up having to wait until your lunch. That sucks. And I could never take a vacation that wasn't in the middle of the summer, you have no vacation during the school year, except when the holidays are. Sure you have lots of days off, but no flexibility.

[ahisma]

This is what I disagree with. I just don't see it as hard, not relative to medicine, law or nursing (for example).

Have you taught? It's not easy to be a good teacher. Sure, it's easy to be a mediocre teacher, it's easy to be a mediocre lawyer too. But, to be GOOD at a profession is challenging. Teaching is a profession, just as law is.


I see the teachers parking lot at our elementary school (and two other elementary schools I drive by daily, along with a HS I often drive by). The lots are empty at 8am -- school here starts between 8:30-8:40am. So, if they are getting there "early" its within 30 minutes of the bell. Our bell is 2:40pm and by 3pm, the teachers parking lot is mostly empty. My understanding is that the contract hours here are 8:30-3, with a 15 minute coffee (recess) and 30 min lunch. At our school, there is no teacher/student interaction during those times. I've never seen a student in a classroom after school at our school, not once. So, AFAIK, there is no extra help being offered after class by teachers (and its certainly never been discussed with us as parents -- and we are extremely involved in our school and PAC).

This is not the case in our area. My DH arrives at 6:45, classes begin at 7:15. He has students in his classroom virtually every morning. On the rare morning that he doesn't, he makes copies, cleans his classroom (many janitors were laid off), or preps. He has one prep hour - once again with kids in the room who need special attention. Lunch is 25 minutes, again, with a student or two typically. After school is recovery time, where students can, once again, get special attention. His students need this help. Many have non-english speaking parents, many are ESL students. He is there for them, often beyond his "scheduled hours". If he has a "break" at all during the day, it is during the rare solo lunch. So, 25 minutes in an 8.25 hour day. Then, he comes home and puts in a few more hours. How does that not count as a full day's work to you?[/QUOTE]




My teacher friends tell me that the work is not intellectually hard, after the initial learning curve of the first few years.

Frankly, your friends don't sound like good teachers. Good teachers push themselves to grow, to consistently imporove, to meet the needs of an ever changing student body. My DH has created a number of new courses, from scratch. In a 6 period day, he teaches 4 different courses. Each one of these courses require daily prep. He consistently works to relate the material to his student's lives. He makes a difference for these kids.


One of my DDs teachers from last year told me that she and her DH (a HS teacher) go camping the entire 2m summer break. They come home late the night before school starts (so Labor Day Monday). Neither of them are outdoor-ed teachers, so it seems unlikely that their summer camping for 2m is prep time. That type of summer seems to be the norm, from my IRL conversations with teacher friends and casual discussions with teachers in our school.

Pay is for the time worked, not including summers and vacations. Here, teachers prep for the next year, do continuing ed, and scramble to find the way to make ends meet. Last year, in a 9 week summer my DH was in classes 6 weeks (paid for out of our pocket) doing 6 hour / day classes for his certification. We haven't been able to take a vacation, even a driving vacation, in 2 years. I don't know your friends' individual circumstances, but it is not typical of any teacher that I know...and yet, I know many, many teachers too.


On the education front, a BEd is 4yrs. If they have a different (non-Ed) bachelors degree, they do an extra year of certification. If they want a Masters, its by correspondence (which, ITA, dilutes the prestige of it being a graduate degree at all), its not like a LOA is needed to do a MEd. So, its not like getting certified to teach is more costly than other jobs.

Excuse me? Correspondence? Please don't make such sweeping generalizations. I don't know any teacher who got their graduate degree via correspondence. I assure you, my DH attended classes, in person, for years to get his grad degree. It's not an MEd, but I'm sure that since he's a teacher any Masters must be "diluted".

[bubbaray]

The only one who could convince you would be yourself... if you actually took the time to EDUCATE yourself on the topic. A good place to start might be this policy paper that takes a comprehensive look at the highest performing educational systems in the world. The results point to the fact that, in these systems, teachers are not just paid more in relation to other professions – THEY ARE ALSO REGARDED MORE HIGHLY IN SOCIETY. Posts like yours that undermine the regard for teachers perpetuates the decline in education in our society and the end result does nothing but hurt a generation of kids... yours and mine included.



But what makes teaching hard, relative to the other professions? I'm still not getting that. The hours are shorter, the vacations are longer. I don't doubt there is a steep learning curve initially, but there is in all the professions. Again, I never said I don't respect teachers. I just don't think being a teacher is hard, relative to the other professions.

[ahisma]

My point is, I just don't think its *hard* per se, relative to other professions and the pay & benefits (here at least) are pretty nice. It isn't probably fair to compare to professions like medicine & law that have much longer educational paths, but I think the comparison to nursing is fair.

Actually, many teachers have equivalent levels of education as lawyers, if not more. BA + Masters + 30-60 grad credits beyond a masters.

FWIW, I don't think law school is any more rigorous than other grad programs, having been there myself. I sure as heck couldn't have gotten there without the help of some good teachers earlier on.

[bubbaray]

FWIW, I don't think law school is any more rigorous than other grad programs, having been there myself.


I never said it was more rigorous. I said it was longer than a BEd.

BEd here is 4ys. JD/LLB here is 3yrs and is (for 99% of students) after a 4y undergraduate degree of some sort. MD is 4yrs and is sometimes after a 4y undergrad, though many seem to get admitted directly after 3ys of undergrad (ie., without an actual degree). BN/BSN is 4y.

MEd here is correspondence through the terms and 1 weekend per term in the program. I know someone who is doing hers right now and she said it was easy, just hoops to jump through.

[Multimama]

Thanks, Lori. That was a wonderful post. That's all I'll say for now. :)

[dogmom]

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break.

Wow.

I bet you get to go to the bathroom when you want to. Something I, as a nurse, and teachers have in common.

[shilo]

But what makes teaching hard, relative to the other professions? I'm still not getting that. The hours are shorter, the vacations are longer. I don't doubt there is a steep learning curve initially, but there is in all the professions. Again, I never said I don't respect teachers. I just don't think being a teacher is hard, relative to the other professions.

Melissa, I'll be blunt. I'm not trying to be cruel here, just trying to answer your question. If this gets me banned, so be it. How many posts have we read over the years about how difficult YOU find it to be around your OWN children for extended periods of time? How many posts have we read over the years about how exhausting YOU find it to be present in the moment for them as they are struggling with behavior or drama or interests or any of the other myriad posts I can recall. We've heard time and again about how high-maintenance you find (or have found at various ages and stages) your daughters. Now imagine how their teachers feel trying to meet their needs plus the needs of 20-30 other students in the classroom - not just learning needs, but all the other needs that have to be met for a child to even be receptive to learning. If you struggle with spending a couple hours with just your 2 daughters, how do you think teachers feel after 6-8 hours of that daily before they even GET to the lesson planning, materials prep, marking, etc.?

[vludmilla]

I never said it was more rigorous. I said it was longer than a BEd.

BEd here is 4ys. JD/LLB here is 3yrs and is (for 99% of students) after a 4y undergraduate degree of some sort. MD is 4yrs and is sometimes after a 4y undergrad, though many seem to get admitted directly after 3ys of undergrad (ie., without an actual degree). BN/BSN is 4y.

MEd here is correspondence through the terms and 1 weekend per term in the program. I know someone who is doing hers right now and she said it was easy, just hoops to jump through.

The situation that you describe is unusual for the U.S. There are practically no public school teachers in my area with only a BA. A Master's degree in teaching is required to be hired. A Master's degree in teaching is a 2 year program at a university, not via correspondence, so only one year less than your law degree.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am not a teacher but I work in a public school at a teacher's salary. I have a 72 credit Master's degree and Advanced Certificate and I am about to finish a doctorate which was a 5 year program (so 8 years of total graduate school education). I have much more formal education than most of my friends who work in business or law yet they all make more money than I do. I'm not sore about that as I knew what my earnings would be and I chose my field/job quite intentionally but I do find your comments about who goes into teaching a little obnoxious...you know those who can't get into law or medicine...they go into teaching.

It is also probably a bad idea to use length of time in graduate school as a marker for how much one should earn.

Do you think I should I earn 3x what a lawyer does since I've been in graduate school so much longer than someone earning a standard J.D.?

[mudder17]

And this whole thread is a great reminder of why I took my degree from an elite college, my two masters degrees, my postgraduate education, and elected not to complete my teaching requirements, and went to work for a software company instead. Teaching *is* easy, when compared to putting up with the bull--- from every possible angle that goes along with it.

:bighand:

And I'm not going to personally respond to Bubbaray or Erica or Missy might have to suspend me. ;)

[WolfpackMom]

But what makes teaching hard, relative to the other professions? I'm still not getting that. The hours are shorter, the vacations are longer. I don't doubt there is a steep learning curve initially, but there is in all the professions. Again, I never said I don't respect teachers. I just don't think being a teacher is hard, relative to the other professions.

I dont think you have to say it, its been made pretty clear...



And this whole thread is a great reminder of why I took my degree from an elite college, my two masters degrees, my postgraduate education, and elected not to complete my teaching requirements, and went to work for a software company instead. Teaching *is* easy, when compared to putting up with the bull--- from every possible angle that goes along with it.

I did the same, and don't regret it for a minute.

Im sorry this thread has hurt so many people, teachers are wonderful people. Of course there are bad apples out there, but I like to think most have their hearts in it.

[mudder17]

Thanks, Lori. That was a wonderful post. That's all I'll say for now. :)

:yeahthat:

[buddyleebaby]

I don't disagree. I wasn't talking about teacher competency and, FTR, I actually think most teachers do an OK or better job at teaching.

My point is, I just don't think its *hard* per se, relative to other professions and the pay & benefits (here at least) are pretty nice. It isn't probably fair to compare to professions like medicine & law that have much longer educational paths, but I think the comparison to nursing is fair. Teaching hours are shorter than nursing shifts, the work isn't physical like nursing.


Again, there is such a wide variance not only between professions, but within the teaching industry itself, that it makes a fair comparison impossible. Teaching *can* be an extremely physical job. Teachers *can* have just as much schooling as lawyers. Teachers *can* work very long hours.
Not every teacher works 12 hours a day, pays for things out of their own meager salary, teaches a class of 45 with supplies for 20, and stays up late worrying about their students.
Not every teacher waltzes in 10 minutes before class, does all their grading at school, and lays by the pool all summer, while getting an "insanely" high level of pay.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

[QUOTE=bubbaray;3282006]:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period.

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation.


And seriously, the OP is talking about how her teaching family is struggling and you feel the need to come back with this drivel?

[Cam&Clay]

3 months unpaid leave to be with their kids is a pretty fantastic benefit, though.

Where do people get 3 months? I get about 7 weeks in the summer and a week at Christmas and spring break.

During the summer, I usually have to spend at least 2 of those unpaid weeks doing school stuff (inservices, planning, meetings galore) and paying daycare to do so.

Plus we have no flexibility to travel at all. My vacations must be in the summer. Period. There are times I wished I had fewer weeks and could travel at other times.

[kmkaull]

This is what I disagree with. I just don't see it as hard, not relative to medicine, law or nursing (for example).


I see the teachers parking lot at our elementary school (and two other elementary schools I drive by daily, along with a HS I often drive by). The lots are empty at 8am -- school here starts between 8:30-8:40am. So, if they are getting there "early" its within 30 minutes of the bell. Our bell is 2:40pm and by 3pm, the teachers parking lot is mostly empty. My understanding is that the contract hours here are 8:30-3, with a 15 minute coffee (recess) and 30 min lunch. At our school, there is no teacher/student interaction during those times. I've never seen a student in a classroom after school at our school, not once.

I also see nursing as a much more physical job than teaching. Teachers here don't lift or carry children. They are very hands-off. If a child is incontinent, the teacher d/n deal with that -- a parent is called, the janitor cleans up or a special needs aide deals with it.


I see teaching as a comparatively very-well paid job with killer benefits.

I was a special ed teacher for 10 years in Wisconsin. I can assure you, that thanks to our stellar governor, there's no such thing as being well-paid or having killer benefits in my fine state. But that's another topic.

What you describe about your school shocks me. I have a hard time believing it, frankly. If that's really the way things are, I would be doing some serious considering about where my children are educated. Get to school board meetings and make certain you are very involved in what is going on in your school.

The vast majority of teachers I know work 10 hour days. I've never heard of a coffee break. That is called prep time, which you need desperately in order to get ready for the upcoming classes. Due to major budget cuts, prep times across the country are being cut. That's great fun.

Lunch for me was 20 minutes of working with students and 20 minutes of eating. Often, I worked through lunch on paperwork. Many days, I didn't go to the bathroom until 3 pm. Sadly, your body adjusts. I've also been puked on, pooped on, and hit more times that I can count.

I've never seen a special ed teacher not lift or carry a physically disabled child. Yes, often there are aides to help, but as the case-manager, teachers are expected to be fully involved in all care.

I'm not debunking your statements to show you how difficult the profession is. I just think you should know that this isn't reality in all environments. Teaching is the most rewarding profession, but it is also terribly disrespected in this country. A teacher visiting China is treated like royalty. The culture simply values educators. I wish there was more of that in this country--not only for the sake of teachers, but for our children.

OP, I loved your post.

[blisstwins]

I have a PhD (in history, not education) and I teach high school. I am exhausted most days, and thankfully, my physician husband thinks my job is even more demanding than his. He has support staff and never has to contend with parents and others who have lack or respect or contempt for his opinions. Teachers are always on the defensive and it can be exhausting.

Why is my job hard? It's simple. I have to teach skills and content and I care so much about my students. There is not much point in teaching if you don't.

As for free time? I have almost none. I serve on a number of committees, supervise a club, and have advisees. The grandmother of one of my advisees died this week. Do you think I turned her away for extra meetings or do you think I let her talk? I have another student who came out recently. Her locker was defaced and she missed some school. I met with her to give her one-on-one time to make up the work and again let her talk.

I accept lower pay than other jobs because I love what I do (my children know mommy and daddy have helping jobs) and it gives me time to spend with my children (summer and vacation), but it is ignorant and unkind to assert that teachers don't work hard or have serious professions.

[Cam&Clay]

Um, you might get to "be" with your kids, but trust me, a goodly time of that "leave" is spent working, getting ready for the coming year. There's no such thing as just recyling the lessons every single year. No teacher worth their salt does that.


The curriculum changes constantly and often you change grade levels. I was lucky and taught 3rd grade for 9 years. Each year there were, admittedly, a few things I could do again the next year, but the curriculum changes and the extreme shift in the population of my school in 9 years meant that I was always planning and changing how I did things.

[kdeunc]

Again, there is such a wide variance not only between professions, but within the teaching industry itself, that it makes a fair comparison impossible. Teaching *can* be an extremely physical job. Teachers *can* have just as much schooling as lawyers. Teachers *can* work very long hours.
Not every teacher works 12 hours a day, pays for things out of their own meager salary, teaches a class of 45 with supplies for 20, and stays up late worrying about their students.
Not every teacher waltzes in 10 minutes before class, does all their grading at school, and lays by the pool all summer, while getting an "insanely" high level of pay.
I think that is true. It is hard to compare. But it seems everyone always uses the "cream of the crop" salary wise to judge all teachers.

I know that in my non-union state my kids' teachers arrive at least by 7:25, when the kids do (most are here by 7:00) and can't leave earlier than 3:30 (though by checking out the parking lot most spots are still full at 4:30), they eat lunch with their classes so no "lunch hour", they arrived two weeks early to put their classrooms back in order after a summer of painting and asbestos removal. They also attended workshops during their "summer vacation".

DS1 has a classroom of 20 kids, so good class size, however one of the children has spent multiple days suspended so far for slinging desks across the room, cussing at other children, threatening kids with pencils, etc. Seems like a relaxing day in the park for his teacher doesn't it?

One of my best friends is now an Assistant Principal in a middle school. She has two masters degrees and had 10 years classroom experience. Her teaching salary when she moved into admin was less than $50K. It is still less than that as an administrator. An administrator who has been to court numerous times with her students after they have assulted her or other students.

I thank God everyday for the wonderful teachers that my kids have been blessed with. I sure has he!! could not/would not do it!

[Trigglet]

Bubbaray, how about we turn the question around, taking your lead - "what's so hard about being a lawyer - it's just a few meetings, and sitting on your a$$ all day in a cushy office? Frankly, you must all be overpaid because from where I sit it looks like the easiest job in the world, you bunch of ambulance-chasers." ....is what I could have said. But didn't because I don't know enough about your day-to-day and I don't presume to. But how does it feel, knowing that people might think that about you? (Perhaps your 'insanely' high salary takes the edge off?).

I'm shocked and not a little disappointed that this thread has degenerated so much because of a few careless and ill-informed views. But then, as PPs have said, this is precisely the kind of bullsh!t teachers have to deal with all the time.

And OP - I'm so sorry about your situation and that we can't seem to have an intelligent and well-informed discussion about it.

[wellyes]

Where do people get 3 months? I get about 7 weeks in the summer and a week at Christmas and spring break.

During the summer, I usually have to spend at least 2 of those unpaid weeks doing school stuff (inservices, planning, meetings galore) and paying daycare to do so.

Plus we have no flexibility to travel at all. My vacations must be in the summer. Period. There are times I wished I had fewer weeks and could travel at other times.

In my district, school ends around June 1 and beings around Sept 7.

I agree with you about more flexibility in timing, I think a lot of families (student and teacher) would prefer longer breaks during the year to the extended summer break.

Bubbaray, how about we turn the question around, taking your lead - "what's so hard about being a lawyer - it's just a few meetings, and sitting on your a$$ all day in a cushy office? Frankly, you must all be overpaid because from where I sit it looks like the easiest job in the world, you bunch of ambulance-chasers." ....is what I could have said. But didn't because I don't know enough about your day-to-day and I don't presume to. But how does it feel, knowing that people might think that about you? (Perhaps your 'insanely' high salary takes the edge off?).

But obviously, one reason teachers are under the microscope is that they are publicly funded. Lawyers (who make money) aren't. I think ti's often an unconscious bias but I think it's always a part of these discussions.

This discussion is interesting but I wish it hadn't gotten so heated, because from this point, it's really hard to talk about anything other than how wonderful all teachers are, except those few rotten apples.

[alien_host]

I think it is very difficult to compare disimilar jobs/professions (i.e. teaching vs law) fairly. Teaching is hard in one way and law is hard in another way. You can't really say one is "harder" than the other, IMO.

I agree that teachers are likely underpaid. I agree that they do more than they are "paid" for by putting in extra hours (at night, weekends, during the summer or vacations).

I could NEVER be a school teacher and I am thankful that there are wonderful teachers out there. I've heard many a teacher say, "we don't do it for the money". To find a person who truly loves your kid and wants to see your child grow and learn really is wonderful. So I do want to thank all those teachers out there.

ETA: FWIW, there are working people who haven't had a raise in 3 years or whatever (even in "corporate" jobs). Not even COL. Many employers are asking for MORE work with LESS or the SAME level of pay. My DH is in this boat...Times are tough for sure and some companies feel you should be "happy to have a job" and you just need to suck it up and do what it takes to get the job done. Teachers just seem to have this problem ALL.THE.TIME.

[GvilleGirl]

This is almost more active than a vax thread!

An hour a day is not enough of prep time is not enough time to:
- prep the materials for each lesson
- grade papers
- meet/email/call parents or weekly updates
- have IEP meetings
- meet with your grade level/department teams
- write report cards (This can take days! Or a couple hours every day if you are writing detailed comments.)
- write lesson plans
- get work ready for students who are ill/going to miss school for a vacation
- go to the bathroom/eat lunch (you do know that some teachers have to supervise lunch and eat with the kids)
- change bulletin boards

I think those in BC are experiencing them not do their work outside of school because of the strike.

What makes teaching difficult:
- Making sure you are meeting the needs of every child in every lesson and modifying every lesson to meet those students needs. There is no way a good teacher can use the same lesson plan every year because the needs of her students change from year to year.
- Make sure you are meeting the state requirements.
- To put it in a business perspective for an elementary teacher. Each day you are marketing 5 or so new products. A new math product, new writing/grammer product, reading product, science, and social studies. You need to be the expert on each of your products. You need to make your each product new an exciting so that each buyer (the student) is engaged.
- Parents. Yes, each parent is like a different client. You must keep all clients happy at the same time. Each client thinks that they are the only or most important client. And they question everything. The teacher gives too much homework, not enough homework, you are too challenging, not challenging enough, too many worksheets are coming home, my child is being bullied.... (Not meaning to pick on any recent posts, just ones that came to mind recently that involved teachers. Now times that by the number parents.)
- The increase in classroom numbers. Yes, adding even 1 kid to 25 can make a huge difference.
- Discipline. Yeah, many here raise good kids. WE are involved in our their lives and do care how they turn out. Not the case of every family. Teachers might be the only person that kid sees that cares. Now you might not only have to teach right from wrong, but also be their substitute parent.
- You are constantly on. Teaching is VERY draining. I would imagine it much like being in court. You can't let your mind wonder for a second.

Don't forget you need to pay for that pen, paper, copying, binder clip, coffee, folder that you used. You pay for all supplies, boards, books, art project supplies.

[KrisM]

But that's not typical, and even if the kids are in specials that often, you have to keep in mind that the teacher usually walks them there and back, which eats up 10+ mins for each time. In the schools I've worked in, the kids are in the classroom before the day usually starts- there goes more time. And after school, you're typically supervising the bus lines, doing kiss and ride, etc. Then there are meetings, conferences, etc. A teacher's day is a lot more than just the classroom time.

I'm homeschooling DS1. I spend at least a half an hour prepping each day, and more on the weekends. I spend most of August planning. I don't have papers to grade, parents to meet, in-service training, etc. I only have 1 student, and I can spread things out however I'd like.

It sounds like maybe my district is better than average. The specials themselves are 30 minutes, so a couple minutes to walk back to their room, as walking there is before the 30 minutes starts. And, they do walk them to recess and back from lunch, too.

Before school, kids are not allowed in the building until 5 minutes before the school day starts. After school, they do walk them to the bus. The busses go from our elem to another that gets out 10 min. after our school, so I'm guessing with a 2-3 minute drive they have to be leaving our school no more than 7-8 minutes after the bell rings.

So, add it up and maybe you've lost 30 minutes a day, which still leaves them with 3.25 hours of a 9 hour day that is free.

[tribe pride]

So, add it up and maybe you've lost 30 minutes a day, which still leaves them with 3.25 hours of a 9 hour day that is free.

But the thing is, it's not FREE time. Even though they're not standing in front of a classroom lecturing or directly interacting with their students, they're still working- grading, planning assignments, photocopying, contacting parents, advising, etc. It's like saying that a business person only works for the few hours per day that he/she is in meetings, and that the other time spent at the desk doing admin stuff like planning, making copies, etc. doesn't count as time spent working. DH only spends probably 4 hours per day actually in front of his class, but I promise, he's not just sitting around taking extended lunches, socializing, and playing farmville.

To those who say that teachers don't work very long hours compared to other , I think that good teachers can, and do, put in just as many hours as people in nursing, business, law, etc. My DH routinely works a 12-15 hour day (sometimes more than that), 5 days/wk. Plus grading and prepping a few hours on the weekends. Not to mention attending sports activities, plays, concerts, etc., so that he can support his students, get to know their families, and be involved in the life of the school. At a minimum, he works probably 60 hours/week. When he is coaching, it's more like 80. Not many professionals would work those kinds of hours for the pay that the majority of teachers receive.

I completely agree with whoever compared teaching to parenting- you always have to be "on." There is little down time, you're always trying to stay on top of things, and it's mentally and emotionally draining, even when you love what you're doing.

[JTsMom]

The teacher walks them there, then walks back to her classroom. Then walks back to the special to pick them up, waits for them to assemble, then walks them back to the classroom. And moving 25 kids doesn't go as smoothly as you walking down the hall alone does. It's quite the process, especially if it's a big school. I don't want to nitpick it, but if 1/3 or more of that 30 min special is gone, that's a significant chunk, kwim? If you have to pee or something, that might leave you 15 minutes to pull yourself together enough to get through the next chunk of time. Ditto lunch. How many other professionals do you know that get a 25 min lunch break?

When I subbed, I always supervised my own kids during recess, so no time off there either. The whole bus ordeal took at least 15 mins or more IME. After the kids are gone, I'd say there are at least 1 or 2 meetings a week, plus conferences. It's not "free time" for sure.

Planning takes time. Good planning takes a lot of time. And it's not just coming up with the lessons- you also have to gather supplies, make photocopies, etc. All that cute stuff hanging on the walls didn't get there itself. Things like centers take time to set up. Then there is the endless paperwork.

It's like anything. It looks easy from the outside, but if you were to swap places with a teacher for a day, I'd bet you'd be blown away.

[spanannie]

I'm feeling more and more appalled and may have to stop reading soon. My gifted son with ADHD would not be where he is right now without his wonderful teachers. He's been blessed with many people in his life that want to help him and are so patient with the process and communicating with me. Sure, we've had a "dud" in the past, but that can happen anywhere; I'm not giving teachers a bad name for that reason. I am grateful for the great people that are doing this because they love helping people, not for the money.

[ahisma]

Think of it this way. Pick a kids' activity. Not just whip out the coloring book and plop down some crayons, but a real activity. How much time does it take to gather the materials, set them up, explain it, do the activity, clean up, etc.

Now, consider the fact that when we do activities with our kids they are just for fun, generally. A teacher considers a list of objectives, selects projects based on curriculum needs, considers the differing abilities of an entire classroom. She / he can't have a plan for the year in advance, they have to constantly adjust and rethink things based on the dynamics of the individual and the group.

So yeah, maybe they have 15-20 minutes while the kids are in gym. They use every moment of that time and then some. Trust me, they don't kick back with coffee and bon-bons. There's no water-cooler chats going on.

[KrisM]

But the thing is, it's not FREE time. Even though they're not standing in front of a classroom lecturing or directly interacting with their students, they're still working- grading, planning assignments, photocopying, contacting parents, advising, etc. It's like saying that a business person only works for the few hours per day that he/she is in meetings, and that the other time spent at the desk doing admin stuff like planning, making copies, etc. doesn't count as time spent working.


Yes, that's what I was referring to. They have that time to check papers, prepare, etc. It was mentioned that there is no time during the day to do those things, so they are always working many hours at home. I was just pointing out that here, there is time in the day. I was comparing it to my DH's 9 hours at his work and his hour lunch that he is allowed to take. My school is 7 hours of kid-time. I added 2 hours to make it equivelant to a 40 hour work week that includes 1 hour lunch, which is common here. Of that 9 hours a day, my DH gets 1 hour free for lunch and the rest is work. Of that 9 hours for a teacher, there is 3.25 hours of non-kid time, including lunch, before and after school.

[ahisma]

Yes, that's what I was referring to. They have that time to check papers, prepare, etc. It was mentioned that there is no time during the day to do those things, so they are always working many hours at home. I was just pointing out that here, there is time in the day. I was comparing it to my DH's 9 hours at his work and his hour lunch that he is allowed to take. My school is 7 hours of kid-time. I added 2 hours to make it equivelant to a 40 hour work week that includes 1 hour lunch, which is common here. Of that 9 hours a day, my DH gets 1 hour free for lunch and the rest is work. Of that 9 hours for a teacher, there is 3.25 hours of non-kid time, including lunch, before and after school.

I think you're referring to elementary, right? Our elementary isn't like this. Teachers have students from 8:17 am - 3:25 pm. Students have specials 3 x a week, for 45 minutes each. 3 recess periods of 20 minutes, but each teacher staffs 2 a day. Lunch is 25 minutes, also staffed by a rotation of teachers. So, over the course of a week a teacher has 250 minutes, which doesn't even account for time spent walking them to and from specials. Our elementary has 3 floors - that is one long walk with kids.

Looking at middle and high school - there is one planning period (if you're lucky, most have been eliminated) and a short lunch. Otherwise it's all students. Even the short blips between classes, teachers monitor the halls.

[tribe pride]

Yes, that's what I was referring to. They have that time to check papers, prepare, etc. It was mentioned that there is no time during the day to do those things, so they are always working many hours at home. I was just pointing out that here, there is time in the day. I was comparing it to my DH's 9 hours at his work and his hour lunch that he is allowed to take. My school is 7 hours of kid-time. I added 2 hours to make it equivelant to a 40 hour work week that includes 1 hour lunch, which is common here. Of that 9 hours a day, my DH gets 1 hour free for lunch and the rest is work. Of that 9 hours for a teacher, there is 3.25 hours of non-kid time, including lunch, before and after school.

Okay, I get what you're saying here. Thanks for explaining. You're right in that, depending on the school and classroom setting, teachers can have a good amount of time when they're not directly interacting with students. However, even with that time, IME with DH and his teacher friends, they routinely have to spend quite a bit of time outside of school grading, emailing, prepping, etc. Technically there is time built in for them to get those things done, but that almost never happens. The few hours they have with free periods just isn't enough time to get it all done, since those periods are often busy with advising students, meeting with other teachers and admin, grading large numbers of essays, etc.
This thread is really showing how much teaching/teacher experiences can vary!

[KrisM]

The teacher walks them there, then walks back to her classroom. Then walks back to the special to pick them up, waits for them to assemble, then walks them back to the classroom. And moving 25 kids doesn't go as smoothly as you walking down the hall alone does. It's quite the process, especially if it's a big school. I don't want to nitpick it, but if 1/3 or more of that 30 min special is gone, that's a significant chunk, kwim? If you have to pee or something, that might leave you 15 minutes to pull yourself together enough to get through the next chunk of time. Ditto lunch. How many other professionals do you know that get a 25 min lunch break?

When I subbed, I always supervised my own kids during recess, so no time off there either. The whole bus ordeal took at least 15 mins or more IME. After the kids are gone, I'd say there are at least 1 or 2 meetings a week, plus conferences. It's not "free time" for sure.

Planning takes time. Good planning takes a lot of time. And it's not just coming up with the lessons- you also have to gather supplies, make photocopies, etc. All that cute stuff hanging on the walls didn't get there itself. Things like centers take time to set up. Then there is the endless paperwork.

It's like anything. It looks easy from the outside, but if you were to swap places with a teacher for a day, I'd bet you'd be blown away.

But, they're in gym or whatever for 30 minutes. So, 10 minutes before, they start to get ready and then walk down. She then walks 2 minutes to her room and 25 minutes later, walks 2 minutes to gym, and then walks them back. Walking to/from gym is not concered gym time. Gym time is 30 minutes in the gym. Same with recess/lunch. Our school is what I'm using and there are only 20 classrooms, so not so big that it takes 10 minutes to walk anywhere. I guess they might be taking long bathroom breaks and using up 15 minutes of the time. The school has paid aides to work in the lunchroom and at recess. The teachers are at their lunch for that 45 minutes, although they do have to walk to the lunchroom and then back again during that time.

For the end of the day, yes they have time to get ready, but after the bell rings, the busses are gone within a few minutes. If they're there for 15 minutes, the next school would have kids hanging out waiting for them. Our school gets out at 3:47 and the next school at 3:57. There isn't 15 minutes to use up.

We've also got a lot of parent volunteers. I'm a copy mom for kindergarten. I make all the copies for the room. I'm hoping to work on math centers for 2nd grade, but haven't heard yet if it'll work.

When I was working no one took more than about 15 minutes to eat lunch. We ate at our desks and then went back to work. I know DH still does that now. At the time, I typically worked 7-5 and took 15 minutes for lunch. I got paid for 40 hours and worked closer to 50 hours. No OT there, either. It was my job to get stuff done and I did it.

I'm not saying they don't have things to do, but if I look at my experience working as an engineer and the time that the teachers are at the building in my school, I don't think it's that different. But, it does sound like I'm in a good district.

[KrisM]

I think you're referring to elementary, right? Our elementary isn't like this. Teachers have students from 8:17 am - 3:25 pm. Students have specials 3 x a week, for 45 minutes each. 3 recess periods of 20 minutes, but each teacher staffs 2 a day. Lunch is 25 minutes, also staffed by a rotation of teachers. So, over the course of a week a teacher has 250 minutes, which doesn't even account for time spent walking them to and from specials. Our elementary has 3 floors - that is one long walk with kids.

Looking at middle and high school - there is one planning period (if you're lucky, most have been eliminated) and a short lunch. Otherwise it's all students. Even the short blips between classes, teachers monitor the halls.

Yeah, I only know our elementary. It's a very small sample of teachers :). We have paid aides for lunch and recess. Teachers have that time to eat, so 45 minutes, less walking.

I was also comparing to a typical of 9 hours a day, which is what many other professions do. So, that's another 112 minutes a day (560 a week) to reach that point. I know teachers do stuff before and after, but the during is less than my DH's during so I was trying to even it out by making them both 9 hours.

[KrisM]

Okay, I get what you're saying here. Thanks for explaining. You're right in that, depending on the school and classroom setting, teachers can have a good amount of time when they're not directly interacting with students. However, even with that time, IME with DH and his teacher friends, they routinely have to spend quite a bit of time outside of school grading, emailing, prepping, etc. Technically there is time built in for them to get those things done, but that almost never happens. The few hours they have with free periods just isn't enough time to get it all done, since those periods are often busy with advising students, meeting with other teachers and admin, grading large numbers of essays, etc.
This thread is really showing how much teaching/teacher experiences can vary!

It is. It never occured to me that some teachers had to work in the lunch when the kids ate, since ours don't. I'm happy we seem to be in a better district, but I wish more teachers were.

My oldest in in 2nd grade and so far there isn't a lot of homework to correct. Kindergarten was 1-2 pages a week and 1st and 2nd is maybe 2-3 pages a week. We're only a month in, so 2nd could change. I'm sure higher grade teachers have a lot more work like that to do.

[cleo27]

it is ignorant and unkind to assert that teachers don't work hard or have serious professions.

I am late to this thread but I totally agree with this. I think teaching is such an important and demanding job, and it is so sad that there is so little respect toward the field.

I think it is easy to look at the schedule of hours and assume that makes up for how demanding the hours in the classroom are.

This thread is pretty depressing.

Cleo
Proud mom to DD, age 7

[larig]

Yes, that's what I was referring to. They have that time to check papers, prepare, etc. It was mentioned that there is no time during the day to do those things, so they are always working many hours at home. I was just pointing out that here, there is time in the day. I was comparing it to my DH's 9 hours at his work and his hour lunch that he is allowed to take. My school is 7 hours of kid-time. I added 2 hours to make it equivelant to a 40 hour work week that includes 1 hour lunch, which is common here. Of that 9 hours a day, my DH gets 1 hour free for lunch and the rest is work. Of that 9 hours for a teacher, there is 3.25 hours of non-kid time, including lunch, before and after school.

As a high school teacher my day started at 7:00. My first class was at 7:30. I had one 45 minute prep period during the day. I had one 25 minute lunch hour (the second half I monitored a 30 student home room). My teaching ended at 2:30. I taught 5 classes--4 different preps (AP calc BC, AP calc BC, Precalc honors, alg 2). I was also (for no pay) technology leader for the math dept. I could leave at 3:05. During my prep period and my lunch I often had AP calc students or precalc (my alg 2 kids were not beating down my door to get help) for help. My policy was if you wanted help, I'd make myself available, even if that meant eating lunch while we did math problems. So, the reality was that if I had the chance to spend time with students I used my school day for that--it was the priority, because that's when the kids are there. Even the teachers who didn't use their time in that way were unlikely to have finished their prepping in 45 minutes. Not when their teaching loads were like mine. Plus, it's not like we have secretaries to type up all of our correspondence and tests, that 45 minutes was often used dealing with parent phone calls and reading notes from parents or emails.

[BabyMine]

All I can say is take a week off and volunteer everyday at your school for at least 6 hours a day. You will come away with a much different idea of what teachers go through.

I don't pretend to know what a lawyer, surgeon, or other career does unless I have at least worked and trained in that field.

Teachers are teaching our children yet we pay entertainers and athletes more. We don't seem to have our priorities straight yet. Stand behind your teachers and fight for them because the way things are going we might not have any good ones around anymore.

Another thing I feel bad about is that the teachers have to buy the majority of the things you see that decorate the wall. Sometimes even the paper and crayons. I have never worked in a place that didn't provide all the items I needed to do my job but that isn't the case in schools.

My sister is a K teacher. She teaches inclusion and ESE. She has her Masters and some certificates. I could NEVER do her job without loosing it. She was born to be a teacher and is awesome at it. She works from 7-4/5pm. Then there are the planning days, parent meetings, and other things she needs to catch up on. She works in a title 1 school and spends 3-4k a year on her class because the parent can't provide the basic necessities. She once spent $500 on clothes for 2 sisters that always came to school in rags. The mother sold the clothes and bought drugs.

Just because the kids aren't in school doesn't mean the teachers aren't.

Thank you to all the teachers on this board. For some reason education takes the first hit when it comes to budget reductions. We should be fighting to put more money into education.

[LBW]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

Sing it!

[Kindra178]

Where do teachers make 6 figures?

My son's k teacher makes over 80,000. I would guess she is teaching 20 years, maybe less. The k teacher in room one over makes well over 90,000. They each have 19 students. I think they deserve every penny. They both have MAs. We have extremely high property taxes. People here value education and pay for it.

I do not agree with Melissa that teaching is easy. Teaching is really hard. But being a lawyer is extremely demanding with little time off. You don't own your own time. Weekends, nights, vacations, mean nothing. And I mean nothing. There are no paid any days (sick, vacation, personal, national holidays, even jury duty). You are at your clients' and/or senior partners whim.

[spanannie]

My son's k teacher makes over 80,000. I would guess she is teaching 20 years, maybe less. The k teacher in room one over makes well over 90,000. They each have 19 students. I think they deserve every penny. They both have MAs. We have extremely high property taxes. People here value education and pay for it.


Just curious, how did you find out what your kids' teachers make? My kids go to a private school and I haven't seen it published. I'd love to know.

[JBaxter]

Just curious, how did you find out what your kids' teachers make? My kids go to a private school and I haven't seen it published. I'd love to know.

Ours are published yearly. Last year Nathan's 1st grade teacher made 75000. She had been teaching 25yrs w/ our school system and was at the top of the pay scale. There are steps in our county. I think she will only get cost of living from this point on. She was amazing. She had 26 1st graders and did a fantastic job.

[mudder17]

Yeah, I only know our elementary. It's a very small sample of teachers :). We have paid aides for lunch and recess. Teachers have that time to eat, so 45 minutes, less walking.

I was also comparing to a typical of 9 hours a day, which is what many other professions do. So, that's another 112 minutes a day (560 a week) to reach that point. I know teachers do stuff before and after, but the during is less than my DH's during so I was trying to even it out by making them both 9 hours.

Well, and that's part of the point. If all districts were like yours (and I know ours is quite good as well), maybe the state of education WOULD be better. The teachers in my daughter's school are extremely creative and hard working, but they also know their job would be that much harder without the great support of the parents and yes, the tax payers who help fund the school. As I look around my daughter's school, I see an example of a place where education is working and working well. And yet, despite how "easy" it is for these teachers (in comparison to many many other districts), there is still no such thing as a 40 hour week for them. And even the most qualified and experienced of teachers make nowhere near 6 figures. And as much as these teachers LOVE teaching, they are definitely not doing it for the pay. If they worked just as hard and spent just as much time in another profession such as law or engineering or whatever, their salary WOULD be higher, even in these hard times.

Someone above mentioned that it's not just teachers who are suffering. For example, my DH, who works in the government, has not had a COL increase in the past couple years. So it's happening all over. But with teachers, it seems like it's always been the case.

When I was teaching, and I taught in the city, so in a different district from the one my girls are in, and it was not uncommon for me to spend 60-80 hours a week on teaching alone. I had 2 masters (MS in Chemistry and MAT in science), both from very good schools, and I was offered a teaching salary that at the time blew me away, not because it WAS an awesome salary, but because it was higher than average, where average is very poor. But I went into teaching knowing I was not going to get paid that much because that's not why I went into teaching. When I had kids, I quit teaching, not because I couldn't afford to continue doing it, financially--we could have pulled it off. But most of my salary would have gone into childcare, and even more importantly, I would not have had ANY time to spend raising my kids because I'd still be spending 60-80 hours a week on teaching. Anyone who has kids and thinks teaching is not as hard as other jobs such as litigation (for example) is either in a very unusual (and not very good, imho) school district or just.does.not.get.it.

Does anyone think parenting is easy? Does any parent have friends who think parenting is easy? What would you say to them if they told you that? They just.don't.get.it.

[Pyrodjm]

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

:banghead: It's a cake walk because the hours are shorter? From this statement alone I will take it that you have never be responsible for educating a group of children.

As a special ed teacher with a graduate degree, that has ALWAYS had to create her own curriculum, I'm disgusted with this thread. Perhaps our hours aren't as long a a lawyer's and the fact that we don't HAVE to go to prestigious schools in order to be qualified for most positions is what get to people. :shrug:

To say that teachers only work, 8-3, don't bother to update curriculum and never work on there own time in is foolish. There may be a few lazy, tenured, very experienced teachers that can get away with this at there schools but this is not the case for most educators. I can think of a few unsavory characteristics about lawyers that I could list that probably don't apply to the majority. Teachers make a fraction of what lawyers (in the US) make. To say the job is easier because they spend less time on the clock shows ignorance.

These are careers that involved VERY different skills sets. I can do things many people can't. I work with the children most don't even want to acknowledge exist in the educational system. It amazes me that because you think I get more time "off" my job is easier than yours. Here in NYC, Sanitation workers get unlimited sick days, full pension after 20 years, and a few other perks. Transportation workers and other in civil service workers don't dare say that they have it harder because the sanitation workers work less.

You CHOSE to get a job that prevented you from having vacations, free time, etc. in exchange for a fabulous paycheck. That is fine. But because of your crappy schedule and high stress you can't acknowledge that there are other challenging, difficult and rewarding jobs with better schedules in other fields that deserved to be paid well for what they have chosen to do? We not asking for a LAWYERS salary, just a decent one. I was looking into teaching in Florida about 6 years ago, starting salary with a master's and 4 years experience was under $38k a year. I don't care what you want to believe, Floridian children aren't THAT easy to teach.

[wellyes]

This thread prompted me to look up our town's teacher salaries. The average salary, including new hires and veterans, is $68,000. That number simply taking total salary divided by number of teachers.


Do I have this right? $68,000/yr is for nine months, so $7555/month. So it's the equivalent of a little over $90,000/yr. Some people make more, some less. It's an imprecise figure but helps me understand where our town stands.

There's also a chart detailing salary by education level and "step" but it was a bit foreign to me (Masters or Masters+30 or Masters+60?) It looked like salary was entirely based on education level. Which is a bit foreign to me - I've never experienced anything like that in my career. The calls for "pay for performance" make a bit more sense to me from that context. I am not at all sure how you'd measure pay for performance in a classroom, and I don't think NCLB is a good idea. But paying for a degree, regardless of the quality of that degree or the person's ability and effort to apply it, does not seem useful to me. Since the degree programs are - as has been talked about here - not always rigorous or even challenging.

[alexmommy]

So much has been said already. I spent nine years teaching high school math in the private school before becoming a SAHM, so I probably had it much easier than in the public school--I didn't have the gang/violence stuff to deal with at the small schools I taught at. (though still the trash talk, bullying, politics, still there.) But still, my days ran from 7:30-5:30, plus an occasional weekend day. Oh, and holidays like MLK Day I was often at school catching up on grading papers, making tests, lesson planning, whatever. During my unpaid summers I was required to take classes and seminars to keep my certification current. And bathroom breaks were nearly non-existent even when I was heavily pregnant. During 25-min lunches I was always supervising students and often tutoring them, if not helping with a school lunch fund-raiser. After and before school I was tutoring students--for which I was not allowed to charge. Also there were class sponsorships, arrival/dismissal duties, etc. Had I been athletic I would have also been a coach. I had anywhere from three to six preps. Even though I used a SmartBoard (love it!) for my lessons, I still re-did or considerably tweaked them every year b/c my students were different. I don't regret having chose my profession, but had I realized the hours and low pay, I may have reconsidered. Plus, at the schools iI was at, our contracts either did (or didn't ) get renewed every year, no such thing as tenure. FWIW my husband, who has a MA in the humanities, had a starting pay with the government that was higher than a relative's ending pay at a small university. There's a problem with that.

Yes, other professions are just as 'hard' and probably 'harder' (however one defines those terms), and there are lazy teachers who are not worth anything, though here are probably lazy people in every profession.

But it was always frustrating to me as a teacher how others seemed to 'know' how to do my job better, yet weren't willing to actually try it out. Yes, teaching can be completely frustrating and drive you to tears some days. Other days it is the best thing ever. I would have loved for more parents to teach a class here and there (give students exposure to real-world professions/scenarios) and see the classroom form a different perspective. So volunteer!

[KpbS]

The starting teacher salary in our district is $32,700. Most private school teachers make less public than public school teachers here.

[BabyMine]

My sister makes under 40K with 2 Master degrees and certifications. She has been teaching for over 7 years.

[vludmilla]

Do I have this right? $68,000/yr is for nine months, so $7555/month. So it's the equivalent of a little over $90,000/yr. Some people make more, some less. It's an imprecise figure but helps me understand where our town stands.



Well it's not exactly fair to extrapolate that salary out to over 90k a year because the teacher can't just find a way to get paid that salary over Christmas break, winter break, and spring break, can she? Maybe a teacher can get a job in the summer but what are the chances that job will pay at that level and be fine with an employee who can only work the summer?

[ha98ed14]

I'm the wife of a teacher too, and I completely understand what you are going through. I have SAH for the past 4 years and DH has taken 2 paycuts in the past two years plus furlough days. So we are living on less than we were 3 years ago. I hear you. I get it. They don't. Hang tough.

[BabyMine]

Salary where my sister works.

http://www.pasco.k12.fl.us/library/hr/salary_schedules/instructional_salary.pdf

[larig]

This thread prompted me to look up our town's teacher salaries. The average salary, including new hires and veterans, is $68,000. That number simply taking total salary divided by number of teachers.


Do I have this right? $68,000/yr is for nine months, so $7555/month. So it's the equivalent of a little over $90,000/yr. Some people make more, some less. It's an imprecise figure but helps me understand where our town stands.

There's also a chart detailing salary by education level and "step" but it was a bit foreign to me (Masters or Masters+30 or Masters+60?) It looked like salary was entirely based on education level. Which is a bit foreign to me - I've never experienced anything like that in my career. The calls for "pay for performance" make a bit more sense to me from that context. I am not at all sure how you'd measure pay for performance in a classroom, and I don't think NCLB is a good idea. But paying for a degree, regardless of the quality of that degree or the person's ability and effort to apply it, does not seem useful to me. Since the degree programs are - as has been talked about here - not always rigorous or even challenging.

Step = years experience (usually).
+ 30 or +60...those numbers represent the number of semester hours of credit beyond a master's degree. So, MA +30 would be the equivalent of a master's degree, and then 30 more hours of graduate level work on top of that.

Teaching is more egalitarian than other professions, and I like that. I don't think that it sends a good message to pay a mathematics teacher more than an English teacher or a history teacher. All of the educators are doing equally important work, and should be compensated the same way. That's my opinion.

[jd11365]

My starting salary in Florida was $23,808.

If it takes someone TWENTY FIVE YEARS to reach $68,000 for the year, well bless their hearts! Curious to know how much you think a teacher who teaches for 25 years should make? Minimum wage? Babysitter salary?

And it's not 9 months, it's 10 months.

My Master's degree cost me $18k. I got a $2k per year salary bump. Never did teach 9 full years, so I never did get any financial compensation for that one.

That said, I still wouldn't trade my job for any other in the world and still survive listening to people who don't feel I am accomplished as they are. Even if I have just as many letters after my name as they do.

[wellyes]

Well it's not exactly fair to extrapolate that salary out to over 90k a year because the teacher can't just find a way to get paid that salary over Christmas break, winter break, and spring break, can she? Maybe a teacher can get a job in the summer but what are the chances that job will pay at that level and be fine with an employee who can only work the summer?

Ok, but on the other hand, you can't compare a teacher making $68K to a banker making $68K. Because the teacher is making $7555 per month for 9 months and the banker is making $5666 for 12 months. So $2000/month or $500/week extra for the same annual salary, plus a sabbatical every summer.

I think. These are all such hypothetical numbers. Not an anti-teacher post, or not MEANT to be! Just - this is an interesting topic. I personally do not have the temperament to be a teacher. The kids'd eat me alive, I'm a wimp.

[sste]

I worked a cut-throat corporate, wall-streety job for a while . . . one that is infamous for its long hours. And my sister who was a first-grade teacher at the time worked more hours than me! I think the nine months is misleading and you have to view it as a 12-month equivalent . . . all the nights, weekends, etc. during the academic year make up for the breaks and summer. Most teachers I know work 10 or more hours per day during the school year.

[vludmilla]

Ok, but on the other hand, you can't compare a teacher making $68K to a banker making $68K. Because the teacher is making $7555 per month for 9 months and the banker is making $5666 for 12 months. So $2000/month or $500/week extra for the same annual salary, plus a sabbatical every summer.



That's right, the two situations are not the same. The benefits are different in different jobs, no? A friend of mine works at a job with unlimited sick time. She had a major surgery with complications and was out on paid sick leave for 6 months. I don't have that benefit working in a public school and I don't think many others do either. A banker has other benefits, not the least of which are probably higher eventual earning potential. Some jobs have the potential for a bonus or stock option compensation and those things are rarely included in the salary. Teachers obviously do not ever get these benefits. A neighbor of one of my good friends lives in a large home in a very affluent town. He works for a financial firm in NYC. His salary is 75k a year. His base salary. The lifestyle he and his wife live is funded by the very large bonuses that he earns. His base salary is a joke to him.

It seems disingenuous to even talk about teacher salaries extrapolated out to 12 months.

[sste]

I just wanted to add, esp. for the educators in our group:

What is your view of all the money spent on building, building, building (!) and also ipads, smart boards, etc? In my area, it is common to have quite fancy, modernized public schools.

My bias is that I think communities way overbuild and update and that some of this technology is either neutral or counterproductive. I am a minority as everyone seems to love a new building but me - - I would rather have my kid go to a plain but functional school with more money diverted to the mission of hiring and retaining outstanding teachers.

[wellyes]

That's right, the two situations are not the same. The benefits are different in different jobs, no? A friend of mine works at a job with unlimited sick time. She had a major surgery with complications and was out on paid sick leave for 6 months. I don't have that benefit working in a public school and I don't think many others do either. A banker has other benefits, not the least of which are probably higher eventual earning potential. Some jobs have the potential for a bonus or stock option compensation and those things are rarely included in the salary. Teachers obviously do not ever get these benefits. A neighbor of one of my good friends lives in a large home in a very affluent town. He works for a financial firm in NYC. His salary is 75k a year. His base salary. The lifestyle he and his wife live is funded by the very large bonuses that he earns. His base salary is a joke to him.

It seems disingenuous to even talk about teacher salaries extrapolated out to 12 months.

I wouldn't compare teachers to NYC finance employees, compensation wise. Financiers make a lot, and NYC finance workers make more than anyone else. The example I used was bankers, which is slightly less specialized and more common. It's a job that will get you solidly in the middle class and that's about it. I don't mean common in an insulting way, just -- there are a lot of teachers. My town has about 250. Most towns around me have more than that. It is a profession that attracts a lot of people. Partly because the benefits are good.

But - the more I think about it - I don't disagree with you. My point isn't AT ALL that teachers make a lot of money. I absolutely positively do not think teachers are overpaid. I'm just trying to work for myself what to make of the argument that teachers are undercompensated, especially when you factor in benefits and the reduced schedule.

I have a couple of friends who are teachers and they generally say that they hate it, but that the money is too good to walk away from. But - I think a whole lot of people feel that way about their jobs. Once you establish yourself, walking way from any professional career is difficult and expensive. My engineer DH would rather be a SAHD but the money is too good to walk away from.

[Naranjadia]

I too am disappointed in this thread, which was so promising at its outset.

What is striking is that some seem to have made up their minds based on their own anecdotal, and highly regional, experiences. This thread is rich with other anecdotal evidence, as well as some hard data, from both teachers and non-teachers alike. The preponderance speaks to the high demands of teaching. To paraphrase my son, what the heck? Are you really going to ignore all this testimony?

I am not a teacher, but a university lecturer. I have a ~70% appointment and work about 50 hours a week. At the college level, we also deal with the impression that when we are not in the classroom we are diddling our time away.

My kids go to a preschool where every teacher has a masters. I am sure that some view it as mere babysitting, but even at that level it is much more - and a commitment outside the classroom.

[Cam&Clay]

This thread prompted me to look up our town's teacher salaries. The average salary, including new hires and veterans, is $68,000. That number simply taking total salary divided by number of teachers.


Do I have this right? $68,000/yr is for nine months, so $7555/month. So it's the equivalent of a little over $90,000/yr. Some people make more, some less. It's an imprecise figure but helps me understand where our town stands.

There's also a chart detailing salary by education level and "step" but it was a bit foreign to me (Masters or Masters+30 or Masters+60?) It looked like salary was entirely based on education level. Which is a bit foreign to me - I've never experienced anything like that in my career. The calls for "pay for performance" make a bit more sense to me from that context. I am not at all sure how you'd measure pay for performance in a classroom, and I don't think NCLB is a good idea. But paying for a degree, regardless of the quality of that degree or the person's ability and effort to apply it, does not seem useful to me. Since the degree programs are - as has been talked about here - not always rigorous or even challenging.

Unless your teachers do not work at all in August or in June, you can't say that amount is over 9 months. Here in Virginia, we work about a week in August and 3 weeks in June, so our salary represents 10 months of work. For us, it's actually divided by our 193 contracted days. We don't get paid for holidays. This works to the county's advantage because if you have to take leave without pay, they take your daily rate and take that out of your paycheck. When I was sick in February and ran out of leave, they took $375 a day out of my paycheck. It was awful.

In education, education is valued and we are rewarded for keeping current and/or furthering our education. It's an incentive because they want us to have graduate degrees.

I know I have it good because I work in Fairfax County. Our pay is better and we have better technology and supplies. I having been teaching for 17 years, first as a teacher and now as a librarian, and I have never thought I had an easy job.

One year I had 31 students in a third grade class. I had been teaching 3rd grade for a while, but suddenly I had a class with 2 ED, 4 ADHD, 10 SPED, 14 ESOL (2 had zero English), 6 G/T, 1 severely handicapped, 1 partially deaf, 1 was in chemotherapy for leukemia, and 4 were named Jack. No lesson you find in a textbook is going to walk you through a lesson with that group of kids. Oh, how I loved that class, but boy did they keep me on my toes...and working late every day.

[MontrealMum]

I would respectfully submit that there are perhaps outliers in terms of districts in the US and Canada where teachers' experiences differ rather drastically from the norm. Because honestly, 6 figures is somewhat fantastic to contemplate and it's certainly not the norm, even for an end-of-career teacher.

I also come from a family of teachers and have many friends that teach. I don't know anyone who makes/made a 6 figure salary. The average starting salary for my mom's district in is $35,557 and the average overall is $54,739. My dad's district average starting salary was slightly more, but the overall average is slightly less at $47,172. I believe both max out at about $80k including bonuses for years beyond a BS/BA. Those are current figures, not what they were when my parents - who are now retired - were still teaching.

I certainly never knew my dad to not bring work home. Every night he had grading and he often worked weekends. The choice is either to do it at school by staying late, or to take it home and do it there. His "prep hour" - upper level MI teachers were supposed to have 1 hour a day - was taken up supervising study hall...which mostly meant breaking up fights. He finally decided to retire in favor of f/t university teaching when they installed metal detectors at the Jr. High where he taught after a few scary incidents. And this was in a "good" district. 20 years ago. I shudder to think what it's like now.

I'll add that my father the teacher's pay check was soooo big and fat that he had to paint houses every summer during his "paid vacation."

During nearly all of my childhood my dad worked two jobs. His f/t day job teaching k-12, and his "night" and/or weekend job teaching at a local university. It was necessary to supplement that one salary, and that's with only one kid, in a fairly low COL area. Of course, my dad had the graduate education and specialized training that allowed him to get such a "cushy" job...on an adjunct salary, lest anyone think he was some sort of full professor or anything. And even then, many of them don't make all that much either.

Some of his fellow teachers worked at Meijer's, were bouncers at bars, or did Amway on the side. Because my dad had specialized certification, he was able to pick up extra courses in the summer that other teachers would not have been able to. And of course, there are all those coaches and teachers that do driver's ed in the summers.

My mother, OTOH, rarely brought grading home with her because she only taught lower level grades (in the 60's/70's), and later on, Special Ed. She taught year round when she was in Special Ed. as many of those programs go year round and don't offer any more vacation than those jobs outside the world of teaching. Additionally, her experience was much like the poster below describes.


My mother regularly has to deal with kids whose parents forget to feed them/get them properly dressed (she keeps a stash of new underpants in her desk for the kids whose parents seem incapable of this task). My brother is recovering from a broken rib from breaking up a fight in his classroom, during which he had a chair thrown at his head whilst being called a f%^&*$g c*&t. My brother earns about $37k.



My mom has been bitten and hit by her kids multiple times necessitating various not-fun medical procedures. Although her job in the 70's and 80's was "nice", as we got into the 90's and later she was suddenly providing breakfast for many of her kids, and buying her own classroom supplies. And she had a stash of clean clothes for some who would have roaches falling off them when they arrived at school each day. A lot of the kids were sad that the clean clothes had to stay at school. Of course, there were also the funerals of the kids my mom attended, because when you teach special ed. this is what happens. And she also has had to report abuse and testify about it, with only so much as a "panic" phone in her room for protection against a gun-toting cracked up parent. Fun times. Of course, FWIW, she dealt with incontinent children daily as part of her job. Not complaining at all, it's in the job description of anyone who's in Special ed. She's also had 2 carpal tunnel surgeries and 2 spinal fusion surgeries which are directly related to all the heavy lifting - WITH an aide - that had to be done in her job.

There was another snippet I wanted to quote from above about pay per hour. Someone was talking about $50 per hour? Sorry the thread is too long so I missed it. My mom - as a teacher with many years in, multiple certifications, and major seniority - is at the top of the pack when she subs. Because of her qualifications and many years of teaching she is supposed to make per day what she would make were she still a f/t teacher. IIRC, she makes $90 a day before everything is deducted.

AFAIK, the situation here in QC - in terms of salaries - is very similar. The starting salary is $36ish, the average is nearly $52K, and the max is $63K. And that's in Canada so a much greater percentage of those gross numbers is deducted than in the US. Those figures are a few years old, but I don't think they've changed measurably.

I do not know what the solution is for cash-strapped school boards and underperforming schools, but I certainly don't believe that current teachers shouldn't be making every penny that they are now.

[Trigglet]

this is going to be my last post in this thread - enjoy :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

[squimp]

I applaud the OP for sharing her story. I think teachers have the most important job in the world.

I spent one day in my first grader's classroom last year, teaching kids about my field, in the way that their teacher does every day. I don't remember the last time I was so exhausted. I am a field scientist. Field work for me involves days digging soil pits in the woods, wading through streams and climbing over logs. I was a university professor for years. I spent more time in grad school than my MD and JD friends and I finished my PhD fast.

Teaching 25 smart, energetic eager kids is exhausting in every way. It is hard work. I looked at her teacher at the end of that day and asked her how she does it. She is seriously a rock star and deserves every penny and then some.

[fortato]

This thread is completely insulting to teachers.

I'd love to hear one of you that says it's easy to take their job for a week.... or even a day.

Teachers are the second most underpaid professionals...

[mjs64]

this is going to be my last post in this thread - enjoy :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

I haven't been able to figure out how to reply to this thread--it's upset me all day, and I won't elaborate further, except to say that I know I couldn't have been as articulate as this man, this poet, this teacher. Thanks for this.

[fortato]

Melissa, I'll be blunt. I'm not trying to be cruel here, just trying to answer your question. If this gets me banned, so be it. How many posts have we read over the years about how difficult YOU find it to be around your OWN children for extended periods of time? How many posts have we read over the years about how exhausting YOU find it to be present in the moment for them as they are struggling with behavior or drama or interests or any of the other myriad posts I can recall. We've heard time and again about how high-maintenance you find (or have found at various ages and stages) your daughters. Now imagine how their teachers feel trying to meet their needs plus the needs of 20-30 other students in the classroom - not just learning needs, but all the other needs that have to be met for a child to even be receptive to learning. If you struggle with spending a couple hours with just your 2 daughters, how do you think teachers feel after 6-8 hours of that daily before they even GET to the lesson planning, materials prep, marking, etc.?
YEAH THAT!
This is EXACTLY what I wanted to say!
Thank you!

[fortato]

This is what I disagree with. I just don't see it as hard, not relative to medicine, law or nursing (for example).

I can see dealing with 25 children being not *my* cup of tea or possibly stressful for people without the skillset for teaching. But, just like a janitor or garbageman chooses their work (which also wouldn't be my cup of tea), teachers have chosen to work with children. Dealing with 25 children *is* the job.

I see the teachers parking lot at our elementary school (and two other elementary schools I drive by daily, along with a HS I often drive by). The lots are empty at 8am -- school here starts between 8:30-8:40am. So, if they are getting there "early" its within 30 minutes of the bell. Our bell is 2:40pm and by 3pm, the teachers parking lot is mostly empty. My understanding is that the contract hours here are 8:30-3, with a 15 minute coffee (recess) and 30 min lunch. At our school, there is no teacher/student interaction during those times. I've never seen a student in a classroom after school at our school, not once. So, AFAIK, there is no extra help being offered after class by teachers (and its certainly never been discussed with us as parents -- and we are extremely involved in our school and PAC).

If you compare a teacher's work hours to those of a nurse (both 4yr degrees if the nurse has a BN and here rates of pay seem about the same), IMO a nurse works much longer hours -- on individual shifts (mostly 12hrs, some are 8) and over the course of a week. I also see nursing as a much more physical job than teaching. Teachers here don't lift or carry children. They are very hands-off. If a child is incontinent, the teacher d/n deal with that -- a parent is called, the janitor cleans up or a special needs aide deals with it.

My teacher friends tell me that the work is not intellectually hard, after the initial learning curve of the first few years. Perhaps it is physically hard to stand, but I've also been told that teachers no longer stand at the front of the class all day, a lot of the work is more sitting with the children (and this has been my observation over the past 2 yrs).

One of my DDs teachers from last year told me that she and her DH (a HS teacher) go camping the entire 2m summer break. They come home late the night before school starts (so Labor Day Monday). Neither of them are outdoor-ed teachers, so it seems unlikely that their summer camping for 2m is prep time. That type of summer seems to be the norm, from my IRL conversations with teacher friends and casual discussions with teachers in our school.

On the education front, a BEd is 4yrs. If they have a different (non-Ed) bachelors degree, they do an extra year of certification. If they want a Masters, its by correspondence (which, ITA, dilutes the prestige of it being a graduate degree at all), its not like a LOA is needed to do a MEd. So, its not like getting certified to teach is more costly than other jobs.

And, just FTR, it is not that I don't respect or value teachers. My original post in this thread was that it is not a *hard* job. And I still don't believe that. I see teaching as a comparatively very-well paid job with killer benefits.

SERIOUSLY??? A teacher doesn't have to deal with an incontinent child? Are you living on another planet?? Where do you live, because that's the district I want to teach in, however, if it means having to deal with small minded parents like you, then I'll pass.

Woman. You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[almostamom]

I have read *some* of the replies to this post. I have not read them all. I'm just too tired. It is 1:18 a.m. and I just got home......from a day of teaching 4th grade. The sixth grade teacher left at 11:30 p.m. The 3rd grade teacher left with me. We were all at school before 7:00 a.m. I'm fairly certain I'll see at least some of the other teachers at school when I go in on Sunday morning. FWIW, I'm not a newbie. I started teaching nearly 20 years ago.

Goodnight,

Linda

[randomkid]

Wow! When I first saw this thread, it was one page. I just spent 2 hours reading all of this and am floored! I wasn't going to respond, but just couldn't stay quiet. I agree with the OP. Education is going down the tubes and I live in a state that has about the crappiest education system in the country. Hence the reason my daughter is in private school. I pay extra to make sure my child is getting the education I feel she deserves and not one that is driven by a standardized test. Clearly, there are huge differences in education systems around the US and Canada. I'm not sure where Melissa lives, but I would be pissed off if our education system was like the one she describes. I'm not happy with ours, but that one sounds equally awful. I just can't imagine teachers not caring and being on strike during the school year. If they are not grading papers/tests, making lesson plans, etc, then how are the kids learning anything? And that short day is ridiculous. DD's school day is 8:15-3:15. The teachers are there 7:30-4:00 at least. I have picked DD up at 5:00 and seen teachers leaving the school. Teachers that care more about money, demands and being on strike than teaching shouldn't be teachers, IMO.

I am constantly amazed that education and educators are not revered by our country. I think teaching should be one of the highest paid professions. Maybe then those who are qualified and WANT to teach, would. I think many teachers are good, but are simply burned out and can't take it anymore. Our teachers deserve respect, good pay, assistance in the classroom, support from parents and the community, and on and on. It is sad that one or two posters on this thread have set the tone. If you think this thread sucks, read back through it a bit and pay attention to those who are being supportive of teachers. It is always the few that overshadow the views and opinions of the many. Yes, teaching is not valued in our country and that needs to, but likely won't ever, change. Teachers deal with so much more than just teaching a subject to children. I know of very few professions where people are expected to regularly attend events after working hours. There are open houses, book fairs, after school and evening events, etc. Who do you think plans that Holiday/Christmas/Thanksgiving/Honor Society induction/Talent show, etc program your child is in? Who is there in the evening to supervise and direct the program? Those things don't happen during classroom hours. They don't just teach the kids the program then go home and say "OK, hit it! Good luck and see you tomorrow!"

Hearing people say that teachers have plenty of time built into their day to complete their work is just ignorant. Time may be built into the day, but teachers do not get to just go to a quiet corner and do what needs to be done uninterrupted.

I work with a younger girl who went to community college and is a Physical Therapist Assistant. She likes her job, but her passion is elementary education. She is now in school to get her Bachelors and was very excited about becoming a teacher. However, she is now spending time regualrly in the classroom. Last week she asked me "Would it be bad if I went to school to be a teacher, then never did it?" She still loves teaching, but is already disillusioned by the reality of it. She was telling me that they teach all these wonderful strategies and concepts in class, but they are not able to apply them in the classroom due to all the constraints placed on educators these days. She wants to teach in the way she is being taught to be a teacher, but would not be allowed to do so. I find this to be very sad. I saw a young girl so passionate about something already reconsidering her career choice. The truly sad thing is that a couple of years ago when she said she was going back to school, I knew this would happen. Some of us actually tried to talk her out of it, but she was determined. Now, not so much. I think people need to remember that many of the things they don't like about education are due to the system, not the teachers. Teachers are frustrated by the same limitations and beauracracy that frustrate parents. A couple of weeks ago, the teacher that this girl is with was out for the day and there was a sub. She let my co-worker lead the class. However, she was not allowed to stray from the lesson plan and had to fill up 90 minutes only using 3 pages from a Math book. Neither she nor the teacher could access the computer because only the primary teacher has the password and they weren't "allowed" to have it. What the heck is that all about? It's because of the standardized test and they are not allow to do anything outside the lesson plan that is geared toward that test. God forbid they teach something that might not be on the test! She was incredibly frustrated by that experience.

IMO, teachers need to be highly paid, respected and regarded. After all, all those lawyers, doctors and other professionals who get that respect and high pay would be nowhere without teachers. I challenge one person to say that they would be where they are today without teachers. Teaching is hard work with little appreciation. When I was in college, I was working at Disney and was so surprised to see my high school chemistry teacher working there one summer. He was in a seasonal job that likely paid $10/hr. And for those who say teachers have the entire summer off - who do you think is teaching summer classes? Not all teachers have their summers off. Even at DD's school, they have summer camps that the teachers run through the entire month of June and into July, even the K teachers.

I am here to say that I support teachers 100% and I am not a teacher and don't have any in my family. I just have that much respect for teaching and a quality education. I would never have the career I have today if it weren't for my teachers. Heck, I likely wouldn't be able to be on this board because I wouldn't be able to read, write and express myself if I didn't have good teachers. To all the teachers who have educated me, my family and my children :bowdown: :bighand:

[dcmom2b3]

Good grief! As someone upthread said, what a corker!

Melissa, you know that I love you, but I think your experience is far different than mine, and that of many in the US. I only can conclude that Canada's teachers' unions are far more powerful than their US counterparts.

As the lawyer-daughter of a teacher who has an Ivy MEd, with 30+ hours beyond and 35 years teaching experience, (so not a green correspondence school candidate) I call bull**** on the idea that teaching, in the US, in the states I'm familiar with, isn't hard and underpaid.

My mother always brought work home, had no proper lunch hour, and, to this day, can hold her bladder for 12+ hours. My back-to-school shopping always took place in October, after she had a paycheck or two in the bank -- there was no paid summer vacation.

She also could teach a rock how to diagram a compound/complex sentence, she is the reason DD can read. Because that's what she did for 35 years; love kids, guide them, and teach them. She couldn't attend my law school graduation because of school district policies forbidding taking leave before or after a holiday (in our case, Memorial Day). But my first lawyer job paid 5K more than her salary after 35 years of teaching.

The teacher's parking lot at E's school is 75% full at 6 PM each evening, and I know that her teacher regularly works 14 or 15 hour days. She's diffentiating her curriculum to accommodate an appox 4 yr range in development that exists in her classroom, with materials and tools paid for from her own pocket. She doesn't have to do any of that, she just does. Because she loves to see children learn.

On Monday, I brought a bunch of cleaning products and supplies to E's classroom. Her teacher was thrilled, particularly with the laundry detergent, since the school has a washer/dryer but no soap powder requisitioned to make it really useable. (She buys spare clothes to keep on hand for kids who are incontinent or have accidents, but because parents won't return the spares if she sends them home, she has to launder soiled clothes during the school day and put them back on the child.)

She grabbed the cleanser and one of the sponges that I'd brought to clean the feces from the circle-time rug that one of E's classmates had blessed her with earlier that day. She was happy to have something other than school paper towels and water to perform the task.

As a lawyer, I have never had to clean client poop from conference room or courtroom chairs. And if that were part of my job I'd certainly expect to have the right tools and supplies to accomplish the task. E's teacher doesn't have the luxury of that expectation.

There's a reason that my mom forbade me to go into education. She wanted an easier life for me. And, IMHO, law is easier. No parents to deal with, and clearer standards to be evaluated by.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

first of all, WOW. some of the comments in this thread are incredibly offensive and hurtful. OP posted how her family is struggling and the difficulty of her and her spouses jobs, how they are underpaid...and people feel the need to write paragraphs pointing out how their jobs are actually overpaid and are relatively easy. REALLY?? :(

second, teaching is a well-paid job?? killer benefits? Six-figure salary?? WOW. I can't even begin to address the ridiculousness of these claims. Most teachers around here (even university profs with PhDs) make around $40k, $50k at best.

If you don't get why people are offended at some of the comments made here, consider how YOU would feel if you made a comment about how stressful your life currently is re: your kids (behavior issues, illnesses, general kid stuff), and then a childfree coworker/friend/family member started going off about how she didn't understand why parenting is so hard. how parents get it easy bc they get tax breaks and other considerations just because they have kids. and why parents complain about how hard being a parent is, if "They chose it, so they don't get the right to complain." Uh-huh. I doubt you'd be nodding your head in agreement. Whatever happened to "Unless you've BTDT, you don't get a vote on how difficult something is?" Sheesh.

[gordo]

I must have missed this over the last few days. I am shocked at the attitudes about teachers on this board. I am a school social worker, so while not a teacher, I am on the same salary schedule and benefits as the teachers and get to see first hand how difficult and time consuming their jobs are.

I am lucky to work in a school district that has a very good salary schedule. A first year teacher with a Bachelors degree in my district gets $47k which is quite good compared to others around us. Teachers in my district do make 6 figures, but that starts happening at 21 years experience and only if you have a PhD or 60 credits beyond your masters. This is an elementary district. At the high school district our district feeds into, it is not uncommon to make 6 figures after you have been there for 15+ years, but those teachers usually have a number of stipend positions (coaching, yearbook, after school activities, etc.)

I know how blessed I am to work in such a district. When I got this job, it was a $20k pay increase for me from my previous district for the exact same job! The pay inequalities for educators blows me away!

The teachers in my district are hard working. Our contract hours are 8-3:30 but if you pull up to school at 7am, the parking lot is already full. It typically doesn't empty until 4:30-5 but I guarantee based on the number of emails I get through the night, until 1am in the morning, that all teachers are doing work from home. I typically leave at 3:30 because I need to get my children, but I do my work at night when they are in bed. I have 8 weeks in the summer but usually spend a total of 2 of those weeks in meetings and trainings, and then the last 2 weeks setting up my office and getting ready for the new school year. And what about curriculum nights, conferences, music shows, talent shows, gym shows, etc that keep me at work until 8:30pm on numerous occasions throughout the year.

I love my job and would actually be happy to stay in it for a lot less pay because it is intrinsically rewarding for me, but teachers are over-worked and underpaid and it is a HARD job that is rarely valued in this country. Maybe we should all go to Finland where teachers are one of the most valued professions in the country!

ETA: In terms of the wonderful benefits I have, I have paid my fair share of my teacher retirement fund for the last 12 years only to be told the fund will be empty by the time I can collect. There goes my wonderful pension.

[wellyes]

Well, I'm sorry. I can be such a doofus. I am interested in the issue - because - isn't every parent? But I have no idea to do it without being hurtful. So I apologize and will shut up.

i do have enormous respect for teachers, and not (just) for what happens in the classroom. I have voted in favor of every education override my town has put forth and am adamantly pro-union. There is no doubt in my mind that teachers are under-respected and overworked. And I think one of the primary reasons is that it's historically been a woman's profession, something the feminist movement should pay a heck of a lot more attention to.

[vludmilla]

Well, I'm sorry. I can be such a doofus. I am interested in the issue - because - isn't every parent? But I have no idea to do it without being hurtful. So I apologize and will shut up.

i do have enormous respect for teachers, and not (just) for what happens in the classroom. I have voted in favor of every education override my town has put forth and am adamantly pro-union. There is no doubt in my mind that teachers are under-respected and overworked. And I think one of the primary reasons is that it's historically been a woman's profession, something the feminist movement should pay a heck of a lot more attention to.

FWIW, although I was diagreeing with you a few pages back, I wasn't really offended by your posts. I did take you as trying to work this out for yourself. I think there is a big difference between what you were posting and some of the other things that were said earlier in this thread.

[mousemom]

Well, I'm sorry. I can be such a doofus. I am interested in the issue - because - isn't every parent? But I have no idea to do it without being hurtful. So I apologize and will shut up.

i do have enormous respect for teachers, and not (just) for what happens in the classroom. I have voted in favor of every education override my town has put forth and am adamantly pro-union. There is no doubt in my mind that teachers are under-respected and overworked. And I think one of the primary reasons is that it's historically been a woman's profession, something the feminist movement should pay a heck of a lot more attention to.


This is the problem with talking about the issues. Some people get so upset when you actually look at the facts. They can't get beyond their personal thoughts of "How dare you questions a teacher! You can't know what it is like."

I do. DH teaches AP science/math classes in a school district in the Pittsburgh suburbs. He has taught for 10+ years so he has maxed out the pay scale and is making over 100,000 with a Masters. (The school year here goes from the week before labor day to the Friday after Memorial day.) Typically teachers have off from about June 1st to August 25th, unless they want to work summer school or another job.

We have talked about why everyone in his union complains about how poor they are and how much time they have to work outside of work. The teachers spend most of their 30 minute lunch and 45 minute break periods complaining about all the work they had to do at home last night or over the weekend instead of actually doing the prepwork while at school.

By the way, most people start here around 22, when they graduate from college and then get their master's in the evening. This allows them to retire when they are about 55 years old with the majority of their pay. The pension is calculated as 2.5% x years of service x final average salary for pre-2001 starters. For most people that is 2.5% x 33 years x $100,000 = $82,5000. (Yes the multiplier has dropped to 2.0% for new hires so it would only be $66,000, but I still consider that a pretty decent wage to get for possibly 40 years in retirment if you live to 95. - and there is a Cost of Living Adjustment so it goes up each year.)

In addition, at the high school level, there is very little prep work from year to year. He knows his subjects and AP math and sciences (Chemistry/Biology/Calculus) haven't changed since he started working. His prep work consists of mosty staying on top of changes to the AP exams, which he does through working with one of the test prep companies, which pays him to keep current on it.

Here is a link on the top of the pay scales for school districts around where we live for those of you who think I just made up the numbers:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10164/1065333-298.stm

[randomkid]

This is the problem with talking about the issues. Some people get so upset when you actually look at the facts. They can't get beyond their personal thoughts of "How dare you questions a teacher! You can't know what it is like."

I do. DH teaches AP science/math classes in a school district in the Pittsburgh suburbs. He has taught for 10+ years so he has maxed out the pay scale and is making over 100,000 with a Masters. (The school year here goes from the week before labor day to the Friday after Memorial day.) Typically teachers have off from about June 1st to August 25th, unless they want to work summer school or another job.

We have talked about why everyone in his union complains about how poor they are and how much time they have to work outside of work. The teachers spend most of their 30 minute lunch and 45 minute break periods complaining about all the work they had to do at home last night or over the weekend instead of actually doing the prepwork while at school.

By the way, most people start here around 22, when they graduate from college and then get their master's in the evening. This allows them to retire when they are about 55 years old with the majority of their pay. The pension is calculated as 2.5% x years of service x final average salary for pre-2001 starers. For most people that is 2.5% x 33 years x $100,000 = $82,5000. (Yes the multiplier has dropped to 2.0% for new hires so it would only be $66,000, but I still consider that a pretty decent wage to get for possibly 40 years in retirment if you live to 95. - and there is a Cost of Living Adjustment so it goes up each year.)

In addition, at the high school level, there is very little prep work from year to year. He knows his subject and AP math and sciences (Chemistry/Biology/Calculus) haven't changed since he started working. His prep work consists of mosty staying on top of changes to the AP exams, which he does through working with one of the test prep companies, which pays him to keep current on it.

Here is a link on the top of the pay scales for school districts around where we live for those of you who think I just made up the numbers:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10164/1065333-298.stm

Wow! More districts should be like that!

[Naranjadia]

This is the problem with talking about the issues. Some people get so upset when you actually look at the facts.

The problem with this is that there is no such thing as "the facts," unless you believe that your facts are correct and everyone else is just making stuff up.

The fact that there are so many disparities among districts across the country points to a serious problem in our educational system.

[mytwosons]

PennMom - doesn't Pennsylvania fund schools at the high end? I seem to recall reading the per pupil $ amount was over $9k.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

FWIW, although I was diagreeing with you a few pages back, I wasn't really offended by your posts. I did take you as trying to work this out for yourself. I think there is a big difference between what you were posting and some of the other things that were said earlier in this thread.

:yeahthat:

[larig]

The problem with this is that there is no such thing as "the facts," unless you believe that your facts are correct and everyone else is just making stuff up.

The fact that there are so many disparities among districts across the country points to a serious problem in our educational system.

:yeahthat:

[happymomma]

this is going to be my last post in this thread - enjoy :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

That is an awesome video!!!! Thanks for sharing.

[larig]

Well, I'm sorry. I can be such a doofus. I am interested in the issue - because - isn't every parent? But I have no idea to do it without being hurtful. So I apologize and will shut up.

i do have enormous respect for teachers, and not (just) for what happens in the classroom. I have voted in favor of every education override my town has put forth and am adamantly pro-union. There is no doubt in my mind that teachers are under-respected and overworked. And I think one of the primary reasons is that it's historically been a woman's profession, something the feminist movement should pay a heck of a lot more attention to.

This last paragraph you hit on something very key. As part of my MANY years of education coursework (most of you know I'm finishing my PhD in the learning sciences and was a h.s. math teacher) I took several history of education courses and the fact that teaching in recent history (colonial America was different) has been "woman's work" I believe feeds into its lack of respect as a profession. Even today most teachers are women, and for a field that is so heavily populated with women, you'd expect to find tons of women administrators, but you don't. I think that sexism, historically, is a huge reason why it hasn't been taken seriously as a profession. Elementary educators have it even worse in terms of not being treated and respected as professionals. At least as a math teachers I had that technical cache to earn me a little respect, I feel for my sisters and brothers in k-8 or who are art or music teachers.

[nrp]

I have been following the thread but was hesitant to jump into the fray. However, I am another that can offer the perspective as a teacher turned attorney. Fresh out of college (at a top-10 ranked university), I taught for two years in an extremely under-resourced public school in North Carolina. Teachers had to bring in toilet paper for the kids because there was never a reliable supply. I purchased virtually all of my own supplies, out of my $24K salary. I just looked up the salary schedule for my district, and over the last thirteen years since I started teaching, the first-year teacher salary has been raised to a whopping $30,430. The max salary, for a teacher teaching 35 years with a PhD who is National Board Certified (which involves an extensive review process), is $67K. Now, to be sure, this is not a high COL area, but I had to share a modest apartment with a roommate to make ends meet, and even that was with some help from family and no student loans.

That is the economic side of it. As far as how *hard* the work was? I taught 6th grade language arts and social studies. I was required to be at school by 7:30, but usually was there by 7 or earlier, as were most of the teachers. I volunteered to run an after-school tutoring program, so I rarely left school before 5, and then I was bringing work home for the evening. I did have one one-hour prep period during the day, but that was a frenzy of photocopying (or more frequently mimeographing, as our copying budget was so small), lesson planning and grading. A significant minority of my students were not reading on even a first grade level in sixth grade, and I was expected to bring them to a sixth grade reading level in that year. While that goal is in most cases realistically unattainable, I still had to work my best to fulfill it, to preserve high expectations for my students' achievement. Most of the teachers I knew, myself included, wrote grants to help fund projects that could not possibly be funded through the district. I struggled with hygiene issues with my students, although I was fortunate to not have to deal with toilet accidents as my lower elementary teacher friends did.

After those two years, I joined an educational non-profit organization, where my hours were incredibly intense and the pay was also low (although a huge bump from my teacher salary). After that I enrolled in a top-20 law school where I was an editor for the Law Review and graduated 4th in my class of over 400. I then joined a prestigious BigLaw firm as an associate, in the tax department. Not sure if that qualifies as grueling enough, though I still was expected to meet my 2100 billable hour requirement, just like the litigators.

**NONE OF THESE EXPERIENCES EVEN CAME CLOSE TO THE RIGOR OF THE TWO YEARS I SPENT TEACHING.**

I will concur with a couple of posters upthread who suggested that Bubbaray's teacher friends are perhaps not the best examples of the efforts most teachers expend on behalf of their students. I would not want one of them teaching my kids.

[kijip]

Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time.


Most of us on this board are not in your district or in Canada. Here is Seattle, with 15+ plus years experience and more than a MA level education, you max out at under 63K a year for this year http://www.k12.wa.us/SAFS/PUB/PER/SalAllocSchedule.pdf , down a litlle from the year before. You start with a MA at under 41k which is IMO a decent starting salary in most professions after graduation. In WA state, newly hired teachers are required to have an MA. The only ones teaching with BAs only have years of experience.

I don't think teachers here in Seattle are grossly underpaid but they sure ain't overpaid. I homeschool, so clearly I was not all that happy with the schools but I see a lot of teachers working hard. They also certainly are not posting on BBB during their work day!

I also will not deride someone for choosing a career where they have (potentially) more time outside of work and with their families. Do some lawyers work a heck of a lot more hours? Sure. But just like teachers chose their profession and accepted the lower salary, lawyers choose theirs too and if they go into certain paths in law, they accept the long hours as part of the package, same as teachers accept the pay. Nothing is unjust about that for either group.

[JTsMom]

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

Pennsylvania is near the top, according to this chart. It says the average salary is 54, 027, which, imo, is closer to where it should be. I think 60K would be more fair, but the good benefits offset that.

Clearly, that's not true everywhere though. In Florida, average salry is 43,302, and the benefits aren't as good. You can't take the top tier salary from one of the highest paying districts and say, "See, teachers are paid well." Those teachers ARE paid well. Good for them!

[MontrealMum]

I only can conclude that Canada's teachers' unions are far more powerful than their US counterparts.



IDK, I'm in the province with the strongest union culture/presence, and the situation for teachers here is not much different that what I'm familiar with in my home state. I'm sure there's just as much variety here in Canada as in the US, but I would be shocked to hear that 6 figure salaries and 8-3 hours are the norm. They certainly aren't here in Quebec. From what I'm reading here the experience of US teachers is very similar to that of Canadian teachers.

[daisymommy]

And being paid well does not equal an easy job. No one ever says "Doctors and Lawyers have it so easy! Their job is a cake-walk because they're paid so well!" That would be ludicrous.
If someone paid me $50,000 to be a SAHM, would that mean my job as parent would be easy? HA! What a joke.

Teaching and taking care of children is one of the most mentally & emotionally draining jobs I can think of. But for teachers whom are paid very little, it's just one more slap in the face to their hard work and dedication.

Pay them all you want, that doesn't make their job *easy*. It just means they are better compensated.

[Cam&Clay]

This is the problem with talking about the issues. Some people get so upset when you actually look at the facts. They can't get beyond their personal thoughts of "How dare you questions a teacher! You can't know what it is like."

I do. DH teaches AP science/math classes in a school district in the Pittsburgh suburbs. He has taught for 10+ years so he has maxed out the pay scale and is making over 100,000 with a Masters. (The school year here goes from the week before labor day to the Friday after Memorial day.) Typically teachers have off from about June 1st to August 25th, unless they want to work summer school or another job.

We have talked about why everyone in his union complains about how poor they are and how much time they have to work outside of work. The teachers spend most of their 30 minute lunch and 45 minute break periods complaining about all the work they had to do at home last night or over the weekend instead of actually doing the prepwork while at school.

By the way, most people start here around 22, when they graduate from college and then get their master's in the evening. This allows them to retire when they are about 55 years old with the majority of their pay. The pension is calculated as 2.5% x years of service x final average salary for pre-2001 starters. For most people that is 2.5% x 33 years x $100,000 = $82,5000. (Yes the multiplier has dropped to 2.0% for new hires so it would only be $66,000, but I still consider that a pretty decent wage to get for possibly 40 years in retirment if you live to 95. - and there is a Cost of Living Adjustment so it goes up each year.)

In addition, at the high school level, there is very little prep work from year to year. He knows his subjects and AP math and sciences (Chemistry/Biology/Calculus) haven't changed since he started working. His prep work consists of mosty staying on top of changes to the AP exams, which he does through working with one of the test prep companies, which pays him to keep current on it.

Here is a link on the top of the pay scales for school districts around where we live for those of you who think I just made up the numbers:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10164/1065333-298.stm

Teachers can strike in PA. They are paid much better than most places there and have way better pensions.

[crl]

I haven't read all the responses and likely won't find time to. But I wanted to add my two cents.

DH and I are both lawyers (though after 9 years of practicing I became a SAHM). Nothing either of us does is nearly as hard as what teachers do, nor for the most part, as valuable. DH was a criminal defense attorney early in his career and I think that might be as important a role to society as a whole. But now he, as he puts it, helps major corporations shift money amongst themselves. (Litigation with very high dollar amounts at stake). I worked for the federal government doing environmental law. None of this is rocket science, and frankly I think of law school as advanced vo-tech training. The law really isn't that mentally challenging.

It blows my mind that dh makes three times what a teacher does. Compared to what teachers contribute to society? Really? That is just out of whack.

We have been so fortunate and ds has had so many truly wonderful public school teachers. He is NOT an easy child and I am really grateful to his teachers. I have told them so repeatedly and I hope they know how much we appreciate them.

Thank you to all the public school teachers who pour their hearts into a challenging and under appreciated job!

Catherine

[almostamom]

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

Pennsylvania is near the top, according to this chart. It says the average salary is 54, 027, which, imo, is closer to where it should be. I think 60K would be more fair, but the good benefits offset that.

Clearly, that's not true everywhere though. In Florida, average salry is 43,302, and the benefits aren't as good. You can't take the top tier salary from one of the highest paying districts and say, "See, teachers are paid well." Those teachers ARE paid well. Good for them!


My last full year working in the public schools I made $48,000. I had been teaching for 13 years, and had a master's degree plus an additional 50 hours. That salary included teaching 5 weeks of summer school, Jump Start (two weeks of school before school started in August for Title 1 students), and a small stipend for being the advisor for the Science club which met weekly after school. (I now teach in a small private school for far less money.)

Linda

[amldaley]

I think it is a gross overgeneralization to compare professions like science & engineering to law to teaching.

We are not all capable of performing all of these jobs and yet they are all essential.

Yes, a math or sciences degree is typically harder to complete than a Liberal Arts BA. And not everyone can even score high enough on the LSAT's to get in to law school. But these jobs use different skill set AND DIFFERENT TEMPERMENTS.

Anyone who has taken a single class in personality and tempment can tell you that just because there are more people able to accomplish one particular thing does not make it easier - it means the temperment required for it falls within one of the more common temperments found in our society.

There are fewer scientists than lawyers because their are fewer people capable of that type of work.

And just because being being an attorney means long hours, does mean that teaching does not require long hours.

After having seen how many threads we have already had in the last month about wretched teachers, and some of the issues my families have brought to me already this year to help them with, I have to say that being a GOOD teacher is not easy. You have to have the right education AND the right temperment AND the desire for your students to succeed.

Are there people teaching that think it is easy? Sure. But I challenge you to find a GOOD teacher that is so capricious about the awesome responsibility of helping to shape and mold our next generation of citizens. And if you find a good one who thinks it is easy, it is likely because he or she is well-suited to teaching.

I think if we paid teachers a better salary and made it more attractive to those with advanced degrees and greater professional experience, we would be able to weed out the crappy teachers more easily. When you only have 100 minimally qualified applicants for a job, you take what you can get. Make it more attractive to be a teacher and you increase the number of well qualified candidates.

And...scientists don't have mothers of their spreadsheets and databases calling them and emailing them and arguing with them. Mathmaticians rarely have to walk the line between being honest and being sensitive. Attorneys don't have to juggle managing a curriculum with observing socio-dynamics and being nurturing all at the same time.

I am not arguing that teachers and attorneys and scientists should all be paid the same. But I don't think it is a fair comparison to begin with. I do think teachers are not only underpaid but under-appreciated.

THESE PEOPLE ARE HELPING RAISE YOUR CHILDREN 7 HOURS A DAY. THEY ARE NOT BABYSITTERS. I want the men and women who are molding my childs mind to be the best they can be. And what they get paid DOES play in to that.

I won't argue that they should be paid 6 figures....but a starting salary of less than $30k in some states is shocking. I made more than that 15 years ago working at Target.

[mommylamb]

This is the problem with talking about the issues. Some people get so upset when you actually look at the facts. They can't get beyond their personal thoughts of "How dare you questions a teacher! You can't know what it is like."

I do. DH teaches AP science/math classes in a school district in the Pittsburgh suburbs. He has taught for 10+ years so he has maxed out the pay scale and is making over 100,000 with a Masters. (The school year here goes from the week before labor day to the Friday after Memorial day.) Typically teachers have off from about June 1st to August 25th, unless they want to work summer school or another job.


Why exactly is it that you think that your anecdotal experience trumps the anecdotal experience of the vast majority of the posters here who know hard working teachers? The fact is there are places where teachers are paid well, and places where they're not; there are teachers who spend copious amounts of time doing their job, and teachers who do not. It's not rocket science, and it's not different than other occupations. Of all your 19 posts, are any of them positive or non-confrontational?

I'm another daughter of a hard working teacher who was probably underpaid for the work she did, who went in during the summer to do curriculum development and make sure her class was in top shape for the year ahead. And while I've certainly experienced lackluster teachers in my life, my anecdotal experience is that these were in the minority.

[niccig]

It blows my mind that dh makes three times what a teacher does. Compared to what teachers contribute to society? Really? That is just out of whack.


:yeahthat: My Dh earns more than teachers and he agrees it's out of whack. Pay is based on what the market will pay, and teachers are underpaid for what they do. It makes no sense, and I do agree it's to do with it historically being a female position.

My mother was a high school teacher (gr 8-12 in Australia) in the 1980s and 1990s. My sister and I studied in the library until 5pm as mum was working. Then we helped carry boxes of papers/books to the car and she worked from home as well. I know she graded papers at home, as when we were seniors, we helped grade the year 8-10 history tests, just the multiple choice components. Then she would grade the written sections.

She was English/History teach and reworked the curriculum all the time. Yes, some teachers taught the same thing every year, but they were the worst teachers and you could tell.

[kijip]

The problem with this is that there is no such thing as "the facts," unless you believe that your facts are correct and everyone else is just making stuff up.


:yeahthat:

[pinkflamingo]

I just have to reply...
What is so hard about teaching??
How about teaching in an suburban ghetto school filled with welfare kids, kids who are so insulting, you just have to feel sorry for them. Kids that punch teachers and go back to school 2 days later, kids that come from such terrible broken families. I dare each and every one of you to go and volunteer in a Title One C or D rated middle or high school. Ok, I know you won't do that. Just drive by someday at dismissal. Watch those kids. How would you like to spend the entire day trying to get them to sit and be quiet. Some have never known discipline and their parents are just as bad as they are...

Just yesterday I had an 11 year old get in my face trying to get my attention while I tried to get the class seated and quiet. I told her to sit down -I was speaking to another adult and then proceeded to speak to another teacher who was trying to pull a student out for tutoring. While I was listening to the the teacher and simultaneously gesturing for all to sit down, she got in my face, snapped her finger about 15-20 times and said EXCUUUUUSE ME! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU!! (over and over, snapping inches from my face)... until I turned to her, and she was tattling that someone took a paper off her seat or something stupid. I wouldn't talk to my dog the way she talked to me. She learned that from home. Earlier this week, I watched a boy get chased by a girl when they were supposed to be walking back to class after lunch. She attempted to tackle him in the parking lot, tripped over the teacher. The boy started crying and bleeding, the girl got up, tried to run off, the teacher told her to STOP, and just like that, the girl got in the teachers face, told the teacher off, and ran off, despite 3 teachers asking her to stop. She was back in school the next day.

if you have ever been frustrated with other people's crazy children at Walmart-- wanted to say something, but did not.............-------- multiply that feeling by 25 and that is what a teacher deals with. Half of the time I try to call home, I get a disconnected number, or a parent that wants to blame Johnny's behavior on me. MY CHILD WOULD NEVER DO THAT is something I hear. It's not like when I went to school and I am 33 years old. It is not an easy job. It is completely emotionally exhausting and draining and it is only with generous vacation that people are able to work the job for the peanuts we get paid.

[squimp]

Typically teachers have off from about June 1st to August 25th, unless they want to work summer school or another job.

Those are not the facts around here. Our school year lasts until June 17, then grading keeps teachers around for another week. They started back in early August getting their classrooms ready.

I'm actually glad to hear that some teachers make 6 figures. Doesn't bother me one bit and seems fair. Many teachers have PhDs and/or tons of experience. Not sure why that is a problem, I view it as a good thing.

[kdeunc]

This is the problem with talking about the issues. Some people get so upset when you actually look at the facts. They can't get beyond their personal thoughts of "How dare you questions a teacher! You can't know what it is like."

What a condescending statement. Maybe you should look outside of your own door for "the" facts. The facts here in NC are that you aren't going to be making close to six figures as a classroom teacher if you teach until you are 100. Our school superintendent makes $150K to oversee 35 schools and 25,000 students. I am glad your husband is paid well for his work. You should not assume that your "facts" ring true everywhere. There are plenty of teachers that are underpaid for the amount of work that they do. Just because your husband is not one of them doesn't make it any less true.

[Raewyn]

Not sure there is a clear resolution on this, which is why it is to fractious and politically charged right now.


-The US is not the leader in education and whether right or worng, this has been portrayed as a failing of our schools. It is *really* hard to convince most people to increase pay, benefits, etc. for something that is being sold as failing.

- How do you improve education to get public support? I haven't a clue, and there are much smarter people than me working on a solution to our education issues.

- Education is supported through taxes. The Federal government is broke. The states are broke. Unemployment is at 9.1%. I live in a state with some of the highest property taxes in the country, and according to my last tax bill, over 80% of that went to schools. With so many people taking pay cuts just to keep their jobs, or taking lower paying jobs after being laid off, there isn't as much money to go around. I personally took a 30% paycut for a year just to keep my job. I was not happy when my property tax bill arrived and it had gone UP. It felt irresponsible to me, especially at a time when so many were hurting. This is not necessarily teachers' doing, but it doesn't help their cause as this is what the taxpayers see.

I work in manufactruing, and every few years, our customers expect us to do what we do better than the year before and give them a price break. Price increases are almost unheard of. I don't know enough to say why education costs are rising, but it seems to me a lean six sigma project to streamline operations and costs while improving quality might help. This has to include administration as it sounds like that is a large cost and has little impact on the education kids receive. Then there might be more money to pay teachers more without going back to the taxpayer.



An interesting article in the Economist stating that we really need to increase the prestige of teachers, pay them more to get the best, and reward them accordingly.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/01/teachers

[Beth24]

OP I am sorry for your situation. And I am sorry that this thread has turned into what it has. It sickens me. I have been reluctant to post in the more charged threads bc I feel that the anonymity of this board makes people write things they would never say to people they knew, in person or in writing. I will not be coming back to this thread. I would urge anyone who feels the same way to do the same. And OP, if you or anyone else would like to start a new thread to have a constructive discussion about this issue I think that would be a great idea.

[KrisM]

I think the start of the thread made it hard for some. It did for me. It sounded like teachers have it so much worse than everyone else and we should feel sorry for them and only them.

Unemployement here is over 10% and not just teachers. My DH does still have a job. He got a 1.5% raise this year. The first he's had since 2006. In 2007 and 2008, he had a freeze. In 2009, he took a 10% cut. In 2010, he got that 10% back. Our health insurance costs have gone up. Everything else has gone up, too.

It's the economy today. It's not just being applied to teachers. My husband also works hard and he also deserves raises. But, they just can't afford it now. I'd love for him to have a raise. I'd love for the OP's DH to have a raise. But, I don't want to pay more taxes so that her DH can get a raise while we still aren't geting one. I'm sorry the OP's family is struggling.

[LarsMal]

But what makes teaching hard, relative to the other professions? I'm still not getting that. The hours are shorter, the vacations are longer. I don't doubt there is a steep learning curve initially, but there is in all the professions. Again, I never said I don't respect teachers. I just don't think being a teacher is hard, relative to the other professions.

Nevermind.

[Melaine]

I think the start of the thread made it hard for some. It did for me. It sounded like teachers have it so much worse than everyone else and we should feel sorry for them and only them.

Unemployement here is over 10% and not just teachers. My DH does still have a job. He got a 1.5% raise this year. The first he's had since 2006. In 2007 and 2008, he had a freeze. In 2009, he took a 10% cut. In 2010, he got that 10% back. Our health insurance costs have gone up. Everything else has gone up, too.

It's the economy today. It's not just being applied to teachers. My husband also works hard and he also deserves raises. But, they just can't afford it now. I'd love for him to have a raise. I'd love for the OP's DH to have a raise. But, I don't want to pay more taxes so that her DH can get a raise while we still aren't geting one. I'm sorry the OP's family is struggling.

:yeahthat: So many people are struggling. So many people aren't getting raises or are taking cuts. My DH hasn't had a raise in years, and it was with mixed emotions that I discovered this week that, with just his income, we qualify for Medicaid.
I sincerely believe that teachers are underpaid and underappreciated. Both my parents were teachers. But the truth is a lot of deserving people are underpaid right now and things are tight all over the place, so I think the OP's tone was a bit frustrating for some of us to read.

[lucybabymamma]

"I think the start of the thread made it hard for some. It did for me. It sounded like teachers have it so much worse than everyone else and we should feel sorry for them and only them."

Good grief!
That is not what my OP said and was NOT main point of my thread.
It was to raise awarenss of the dire situation in schools that will probably be impacting YOUR CHILD, not just the teachers.
But beside that, since when has this BB Lounge been about anything other than people sharing personal experiences?

I find it interesting and sad that some people are so eager to bash, dismisss and downplay my experience, simply because it is teacher-related.

Oh, and I am sorry about the lack of raises for your family too, but I still hope for your children's sake that you and others can vote for more school funding.

[ahisma]

This is a good point. While teachers are inarguably the core of the education system, the fact is that the education system as a whole is underfunded. Teachers' salaries are a key issue IMO, but there are many more issues on the table.

Setting salary aside, we are still left with the fact that we don't have enough teachers (hence overcrowded classrooms) and that many school districts don't have the funding to provide adequate materials (textbooks, technology, furniture, consumables, etc.) to facilitate learning at the levels that we, as a country, need.

[JBaxter]

FYI teacher are valued.
I know Mr Simons son so I've heard a lot about this program. Trying to compensate Math teachers at a level that keeps them in the teaching field. I highly respect Mr Simons.
http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/putting_his_money_where_his_math_is/

[essnce629]

I'm only on page 3 of this thread and it makes me sad too. My best friend and her DH are teachers at a private k-8 school. Her DH has been teaching for 5 years now and makes $40K or slightly less I think. She was a SAHM the first 4 years of him teaching, but it was EXTREMELY hard living off his salary alone (which was less when he started out) and living in southern CA where it is sooo expensive. Luckily they were able to live with her mother the first year of their dd's life. My friend is on her second year of teaching and makes a little over $30K a year. Her background is biology, but the school has her teaching 6th, 7th, and 8th grade math (3 different classes), 7th and 8th grade science (2 different classes), and spanish. That's 6 completely different classes that she has to prepare for every day. Yes, she has an hour prep period somewhere during the day, but that flies by pretty fast. She skips lunch often and even when she does get a chance to eat it's alone in her classroom and not in the lunchroom with her husband. With 30+ kids in each class, that's 180 papers, homework assignments, tests, etc that she has to deal with constantly. Her DH teaches 3rd grade so he only deals with 33 students and their homework/papers/tests. I talk to her on the phone almost every day and she and her DH never leave school before 4pm. When she gets home they have papers to grade and read and tons of parent emails to answer. Immediately after school, she usually has a few students and parents come into her class to ask her questions as well. Yes they have summer break, but as soon as August rolls around they are back in the classroom getting it ready for the new year, preparing their curriculm, figuring out their supply lists, etc. Plus her husband has to take on a second job during the summer as a director of the summer YMCA camp so they can make ends meet. When she was still a SAHM, he took on 2 extra jobs during the summer. Throughout the year they have parent-teacher conferences to prepare for and attend as well, plus back to school nights, new student orientations, etc. Last year my friend's DH also had to be in charge of the yearbook and had all the planning and after school work that came along with that. He was not paid extra for any of it even though it took up a lot of time. My friend is the science teacher so she has tons of planning and all the grading of the entire middle school science fair projects. This was a ton of extra work last year and she's already preparing for this years science fair. Even during vacations they are doing work. She's come to my house to visit me on weekends and always brings papers that she has to grade or she'll have grades she needs to enter into the online database. She was up at 6am on a Saturday, while at my house, just so she could squeeze in some work. There's always work to be done outside of school.

DS1 just started a new school last week and when I talked to his teacher she said she is at school every day till 4pm, so parents and students can come in till then to talk to her. She has a 3 year old dd, so she said once she's at home she spends time with her dd till she goes to bed. After 8pm she says is when she does any grading and answers parent emails. She said to not be surprised if she doesn't answer our emails till super late at night.

It's a lot of work, plus dealing with overcrowding in the classrooms and all the issues that presents, and then dealing with lots of crazy parents who are angry about their kids getting a bad grade, being discplined, etc. My friend has told me lots of crazy stories about constant issues with her middle schoolers' parents that her DH doesn't have to deal with in teaching 3rd graders.

My best friend would love to have a 2nd child, but she just doesn't think they can financially afford it. She was a SAHM with their DD, but she probably couldn't do it again with a second child. She'd have to go back to work right away but then there's all the expense of daycare. So they've been holding off for 5 years now. If they do decide to have a second child they may have to move back in with her mother again for a while. There's now way the would ever be able to afford to buy a house she says. It's sad that teachers are undervalued and underpaid.

[maestramommy]

Melissa, I'll be blunt. I'm not trying to be cruel here, just trying to answer your question. If this gets me banned, so be it. How many posts have we read over the years about how difficult YOU find it to be around your OWN children for extended periods of time? How many posts have we read over the years about how exhausting YOU find it to be present in the moment for them as they are struggling with behavior or drama or interests or any of the other myriad posts I can recall. We've heard time and again about how high-maintenance you find (or have found at various ages and stages) your daughters. Now imagine how their teachers feel trying to meet their needs plus the needs of 20-30 other students in the classroom - not just learning needs, but all the other needs that have to be met for a child to even be receptive to learning. If you struggle with spending a couple hours with just your 2 daughters, how do you think teachers feel after 6-8 hours of that daily before they even GET to the lesson planning, materials prep, marking, etc.?


The only thing I have to add to this is: Now try teaching 30 kids just like your daughters, then come back and tell us whether or not you think teaching is hard. You are a highly educated woman, and one would guess highly intelligent. Yet the statements you have made about teachers are filled with ignorance about what teaching encompasses. PLEASE do not do teachers the disservice of telling them they have easy, well paid jobs. It just isn't so.

[ilfaith]

I am not a teacher. When I first moved to Florida I planned to go back to school to get my teaching certification, then I got pregnant and put it on hold. I am glad I did. With three kids, I can't imagine spending my entire day with other people's little monsters and then coming home to deal with my own. I realize now that as much as I enjoy volunteering in my children's classrooms, I don't have what it takes to be a teacher. But I do have tremendous respect for those who do.

My mother studied to be a teacher. Graduated from college, got married over the summer and was all set to start teaching in the fall of 1968. But then the NYC teachers went on strike and by the time they settled she found she was pregnant (with me!)...and back in the day city schoolteachers were required to take a leave of absence once they began to show. She ended up staying at home with me and my brother before getting her MLS and becoming a librarian.

DH's parents are both retired NYC high school teachers. While they certainly didn't make a fortune when they were working, they now have good benefits and an excellent pension. They don't live extravagantly, but they can eat in nice restaurants when they want and take a cruise once a year. More than 30 years ago they bought a home in a town where two schoolteachers would never be able to afford to buy today (two anesthesiologists might have a shot). They chose to move to this particular Long Island suburb because it had some of the best public schools in the country.

DH's brother is also a high school history teacher. He has a JD and a Masters in Education. At 50 he is five years away from retirement, and his salary is close to six figures...when you include the summer programs he teaches and after school clubs. He does teach in one of the more highly compensated districts on Long Island. He is not married and does not have a family to support, so for a single man, he does quite nicely. But he will admit to being burned out and counting the days until retirement. Still, he is a very popular teacher in his school.

On the other hand, here in Florida one of my teacher friends left the profession after her second child was born because the cost of two children in childcare ate up most of her take home pay.

In my district the public school teachers don't get a break every day when the kids go to P.E. or art...because thanks to budget cuts the students only have art, music and phys ed every other week now. (This is one of the reasons my boys go to private school.) My city has several magnet schools which are consistently ranked among the best in the country. Budget cuts this year eliminated bus service to these schools. Parents who could afford to do so signed up to pay for busing...but many routes didn't have enough people so they cancelled service, which left parents scrambling to find other transportation to these schools or left students to attend the mediocre (or worse, failing) schools in their neighborhoods. (But I am getting off topic)

A few people commented that teaching gets less respect because it is a traditionally female profession. The fact is that it is becoming even more-female dominated. When I was in elementary school (way back in the 70s) close to a third of the elementary school teachers I had (and even more of the middle school and high school teachers) were male. Today the only male teacher in my sons' private school teaches gym. The public elementary school I looked at didn't have more than a handful of male teachers, and almost all were in fourth grade and higher. Article after article has been written about how schools are failing our boys, and many of these articles cite one reason as the fact that boys have so few male role models in the classroom. But the sad fact is, it is tough to attract men to this field. Most people who pursue an advanced degree are hoping to achieve a certain income level, one that will enable them to support a family...and I think this is even more important for men, as the traditional "breadwinner." Frankly I would love to see more male teachers in my sons' school, but the profession isn't likely to attract them until salaries are improved.

[happymomma]

I have been reading this thread and have to admit to be a little shocked with some of the things being said. When I was in my mid 20s I thought I wanted to go back to school to become a teacher. I had been in the business world for about 5 years. I am so glad that I took the time to substitute to get an idea of what teaching entailed. It was the hardest thing I did. The district I was subbing in was considered one of the best in the country. I was teaching in middle school math. It was so hard not to be able to take a bathroom break and having to teach to 30 kids with different skill levels. After trying it for 6 months I knew I wasn't cut out to be a teacher. I have the most utmost respect for teachers. I was so happy when I went back to my desk job. It was a cake walk compared to my stint as a teacher. It takes that special someone to be able to handle so many kids. Last year when I volunteered in my DS' classroom I was so amazed by his teacher. She was Mary Poppins as a teacher.

[maestramommy]

Working when you want, on your own terms. That doesn't sound so terrible from the perspective of someone who is dropping her kids off at daycare or camp at 7:30 and picking them up 10 hours later, very typical from the perspective of a WOHP.


I typed out a lengthy response, but it just doesn't cut it. This whole thing is shaping up to be worse than the mommy wars.

As long as enough people feel that teachers are amply compensated for a not very arduous job, our educational system will go nowhere.

[JamiMac]

I'm really curious where anyone is getting a 3 month summer vacation from? Mine have gone to a couple of different districts and I have friends and family in different states where I know the school schedules. A summer vacation for the students is roughly 9 weeks and the teachers work after they get out and a week (at least) before school starts. It appears to me that some of the posters don't even have children in school yet.

[alien_host]

I'm really curious where anyone is getting a 3 month summer vacation from? Mine have gone to a couple of different districts and I have friends and family in different states where I know the school schedules. A summer vacation for the students is roughly 9 weeks and the teachers work after they get out and a week (at least) before school starts. It appears to me that some of the posters don't even have children in school yet.


Phineas & Ferb...100 days of summer vacation, I never understood how Disney arrived at that number ;)

[veronica]

In my entire time on this board, I have never been more saddened at the complete lack of respect in some of these posts.

Furthermore, the close-minded perceptions of the education system are just appalling to read.

And while I can just as easily write some derrogatory, sweeping generalizations of other professions, I will refrain (although I am finding it very hard to).

I've now typed our situation repeatedly and keep deleting because I'm so upset I can't see straight. My husbands public school salary qualifies us for WIC. This is after two masters degrees and 15 years of experience. We are considering him becoming a SAHD while I return to work. And that would be a tremendous loss of a gifted, hard-working, devoted employee that has changed and inspired countless students.

[elliput]

This thread has been a very fascinating discussion, however, we believe it is time to give this topic a bit of a rest and move on to other things.

Thank you-

Erica, Eileen, Missy and Karoly
BBB Moderation Team

[gatorsmom]

I'm honestly surprised at this thread too. I'm surprised at the short-sightedness of those people saying that teachers shouldn't be whining about their pay. I say it's short sighted because those people, the ones who think teachers dont' need a raise, are really ignoring reality right now.

Our economy sucks while the economies of countries like China right now are booming. The only thing this country has keeping it afloat are our brains. We are the leaders in so many industries. And the only way to stay the leaders is by turning out the smartest students. We need excellent teachers to do that. We need the best teachers and learning environments we can get. We need higher salaries to attract the brightest people to teach our kids. We need our students to be inspired by the leading minds in their fields. Clearly we are not getting that now. So, clearly we need to make valuing teaching a bigger priority.

I'm shocked at the liberal mamas on this board. I just can't believe you are turning a deaf ear to the people who teach your children when they are crying out for help. Teachers deserve to be one of the highest-paid professions out there for the sake of our future.

[AnnieW625]

:yeahthat: :bowdown: good job Lisa:) Again I completely agree with you.

Teachers are woefully underpaid in most districts in my state (kind of like state workers, but I won't touch that with a 10 ft. pole because I don't want to debate that), but a teacher in my district with 15 yrs. experience and has had a masters degree for 2+ yrs. will make $84,000. The top teacher salary in our district is $91,000 and that with more than 29 yrs. of experience. The top salary for a teacher w/o masters degree and 29+ yrs. experience is $80,000. Starting salary for any credentialed teacher is $48,000. Our district though has been laying off teachers the last 2 yrs. so no one is getting hired right now.


When I was doing taxes in NYC, it was not uncommon for me to see trash collectors, subway workers, and janitors that made over 100k with overtime. And this was 10 years ago.

It disgusts me that someone with an education, who has made sacrifices of both time (years) and money (tens of thousands of dollars), cannot earn more than someone who picks up my garbage.

This bothers me too. However I will say that I have no problem with prison guards making 100K with overtime because that is one job I would not want to do. People here in CA get all up in arms about it, but really kudos to those who have to deal with criminals on a daily basis.


But what makes teaching hard, relative to the other professions? I'm still not getting that. The hours are shorter, the vacations are longer. I don't doubt there is a steep learning curve initially, but there is in all the professions. Again, I never said I don't respect teachers. I just don't think being a teacher is hard, relative to the other professions.

I used to think that way too, but then I realized it's just different. Teachers are teachers by choice because they enjoy it, I do my job as a state employee because I enjoy a somewhat flexible full time career. Sure it doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach a child to write their name (although as the mom of kindergartner going through this right now it's not nearly as easy as I thought it would be), but to teach a 6th grader pre algebra, or a 12th grader calculus or physics that's a hard job in itself IMHO. Not everyone is made out to be a teacher, but then not everyone is made to a surgeon or a rocket scientist.

[citymama]

I'm honestly surprised at this thread too. I'm surprised at the short-sightedness of those people saying that teachers shouldn't be whining about their pay. I say it's short sighted because those people, the ones who think teachers dont' need a raise, are really ignoring reality right now.

I'm shocked at the liberal mamas on this board. I just can't believe you are turning a deaf ear to the people who teach your children when they are crying out for help. Teachers deserve to be one of the highest-paid professions out there for the sake of our future.

Beautifully put. I couldn't agree more. I'm more than shocked, I'm aghast! I won't repeat what you said, because you said it better than I could.

When I was doing taxes in NYC, it was not uncommon for me to see trash collectors, subway workers, and janitors that made over 100k with overtime. And this was 10 years ago.

It disgusts me that someone with an education, who has made sacrifices of both time (years) and money (tens of thousands of dollars), cannot earn more than someone who picks up my garbage.

Oh, and garbage men? The guys who put themselves in unsafe and unsanitary conditions day in and day out, have to handle my family's and everybody else's trash, and do work no one else wants to? Heck yeah, they deserve to be well compensated for it. The overpaid fat cats on Wall Street don't deserve multi million dollar bonuses when they're laying off hundreds of workers, but my teacher, policeman, firefighter and trash guy deserve a respectable salary, yes.

I'm not taking my Ivy League, graduate school educated ass anywhere near the big trash truck, but that alone does *not* make me more worthy of a bigger paycheck for my desk job than a garbage collector. (And in case you were wondering, I worked and paid my own way through both degrees, so I know just how much time and money was involved!)



I can see dealing with 25 children being not *my* cup of tea or possibly stressful for people without the skillset for teaching. But, just like a janitor or garbageman chooses their work (which also wouldn't be my cup of tea), teachers have chosen to work with children.


I don't think any janitor or garbage man dreams of becoming one as a young person. (Maybe when he's 4, but that's a different story.) He probably wishes he could get that law degree you have. Seriously - do you really think people choose to be cleaning ladies and janitors? :banghead:

I'm appalled by the snobbery on this thread.

[MMMommy]

Oh, and garbage men? The guys who put themselves in unsafe and unsanitary conditions day in and day out, have to handle my family's and everybody else's trash, and do work no one else wants to? Heck yeah, they deserve to be well compensated for it. The overpaid fat cats on Wall Street don't deserve multi million dollar bonuses when they're laying off hundreds of workers, but my teacher, policeman, firefighter and trash guy deserve a respectable salary, yes.

:yeahthat:

[MMMommy]

I'm not taking my Ivy League, graduate school educated ass anywhere near the big trash truck, but that alone does *not* make me more worthy of a bigger paycheck for my desk job than a garbage collector. (And I worked and paid my own way through both degrees.)
I'm appalled by the snobbery on this thread.

:yeahthat:

Nicely said. I have a college degree and a law degree, and I absolutely respect those who take on the jobs that most people aren't willing to do.

[amldaley]

:yeahthat:

Nicely said. I have a college degree and a law degree, and I absolutely respect those who take on the jobs that most people aren't willing to do.

:yeahthat:

Isn't that a contributing factor to why we have so many immigrants here - both legal and illegal? Because we have a whole bunch of jobs no one else will do? What our cities and neighborhoods look like without sanitation workers?

[KrisM]

I'm really curious where anyone is getting a 3 month summer vacation from? Mine have gone to a couple of different districts and I have friends and family in different states where I know the school schedules. A summer vacation for the students is roughly 9 weeks and the teachers work after they get out and a week (at least) before school starts. It appears to me that some of the posters don't even have children in school yet.

My kids were off for 13 weeks, less 2 days this year. June 9 was the last day of school and Sept 7 was the first. The building was closed on June 15 through August 31, so for 11 weeks. I'm sure it varies a lot across the country.

[mommylamb]

I'm shocked at the liberal mamas on this board. I just can't believe you are turning a deaf ear to the people who teach your children when they are crying out for help. Teachers deserve to be one of the highest-paid professions out there for the sake of our future.

Maybe I've missed something here, but it seems to me that the VAST majority of posters have been supportive of teachers and that those who believe that teachers have it easy and get an enormous salary for their work are in a very small minority. I certainly don't see this as a liberal vs. conservative thing. I'm honestly not shocked by this thread at all. Clearly there are people out there who don't value teachers or unfortunately think their experiences with a few teachers who don't do their job reflects poorly on the entire profession. What's nice is that so many people here came to the defense of teachers and that so many people here who are teachers wrote in to explain the hard work they do. When I read this thread, I see a small handful of people who don't get that and a large number of people who do.

[TwinFoxes]

I'm not taking my Ivy League, graduate school educated ass anywhere near the big trash truck, but that alone does *not* make me more worthy of a bigger paycheck for my desk job than a garbage collector. (And in case you were wondering, I worked and paid my own way through both degrees, so I know just how much time and money was involved!)





:yeahthat: my favorite comment in this crazy thread. Traders on Wall St vs Garbage Guys, and it's the garbage guys that deserve our scorn? :confused:

[ahisma]

My kids were off for 13 weeks, less 2 days this year. June 9 was the last day of school and Sept 7 was the first. The building was closed on June 15 through August 31, so for 11 weeks. I'm sure it varies a lot across the country.

That is a state policy decision, intended to promote tourism and generate revenue.

[KrisM]

That is a state policy decision, intended to promote tourism and generate revenue.

The start date is. The end date is not in the state law. Other schools got out earlier and some later. The law dictates starting after Labor Day and how many hours and days of school there must be. It doesn't say when you end. That's done by district. In any case, in my district kids are off 3 months and teachers 2.5 months and that was the question I was answering :).

I think this thread has been interesting. I had assumed we were in a typical district overall. I now think we are better than average. I want to see if I can find out from teachers in our schools what they think about their workload, etc. I'm sure they work hard (and have not said they didn't) but I wonder what they think of us compared to others, etc.

[ahisma]

The start date is. The end date is not in the state law. Other schools got out earlier and some later. The law dictates starting after Labor Day and how many hours and days of school there must be. It doesn't say when you end. That's done by district. In any case, in my district kids are off 3 months and teachers 2.5 months and that was the question I was answering :).

I think this thread has been interesting. I had assumed we were in a typical district overall. I now think we are better than average. I want to see if I can find out from teachers in our schools what they think about their workload, etc. I'm sure they work hard (and have not said they didn't) but I wonder what they think of us compared to others, etc.

True. However, by mandating the start date and the annual hours the state essentially regulates the end time, give or take a few days. Some schools handle mid-winter break, conference days, etc. differently but in the end there is not a ton of variance. I get what you are saying though:)

The Michigan education trends are interesting. Michigan used to be considered one of the best states to teach in. I readily acknowledge that 7-ish years ago it was a completely different story. From our personal perspective, DH's salary was going to be capped at a comfortable middle class level. We were fine with that. He was doing something that he loved, had a family friendly schedule, and had good benefits. We were trading salary for job satisfaction, personal accomplishment, and the ability for him to be home with the kids. (My career will ultimately not be family friendly, he's often the go-to guy for the kids).

Over the past few years that has radically changed, most specifically the past two years. Last summer I postponed the Bar exam because we were worried that he would get pink slipped. Tenure is gone. Paychecks are shrinking, big time. His responsibilities are growing exponentially. His student body is becoming increasingly challenging, and frankly, violent. Class sizes are growing rapidly. That's a rough combination.

Now, slash the paycheck, cram as many kids as possible into the classroom and lengthen the working hours. Add in some media coverage that basically villainizes teachers and a legislature that has been passing bill after bill targeting teachers. It's tough.

This weekend, he's required to be at attendance at his school's homecoming football game. Fine. FWIW, that's not contracted, or paid for. The problem? It's also DD's school's homecoming game and she will be marching drumline for the first time ever. Guess where he will be.

Anyway, my point is that I think the perception in Michigan is that teachers have a pretty good gig. That used to be true. It's not true anymore, at least in the districts around here. We have friends and family teaching in about 10 districts on the west side of the state They're all struggling.

This fall, his district kicked off the school year with a speaker who told teachers that if they are under 45 they won't retire from public education and won't have a pension. Way to build morale. There's nothing like kicking off a hard year with a kick in the teeth.

[jse107]

The Michigan education trends are interesting. Michigan used to be considered one of the best states to teach in. I readily acknowledge that 7-ish years ago it was a completely different story. From our personal perspective, DH's salary was going to be capped at a comfortable middle class level. We were fine with that. He was doing something that he loved, had a family friendly schedule, and had good benefits. We were trading salary for job satisfaction, personal accomplishment, and the ability for him to be home with the kids. (My career will ultimately not be family friendly, he's often the go-to guy for the kids).

Over the past few years that has radically changed, most specifically the past two years. Last summer I postponed the Bar exam because we were worried that he would get pink slipped. Tenure is gone. Paychecks are shrinking, big time. His responsibilities are growing exponentially. His student body is becoming increasingly challenging, and frankly, violent. Class sizes are growing rapidly. That's a rough combination.

Now, slash the paycheck, cram as many kids as possible into the classroom and lengthen the working hours. Add in some media coverage that basically villainizes teachers and a legislature that has been passing bill after bill targeting teachers. It's tough.

This weekend, he's required to be at attendance at his school's homecoming football game. Fine. FWIW, that's not contracted, or paid for. The problem? It's also DD's school's homecoming game and she will be marching drumline for the first time ever. Guess where he will be.

Anyway, my point is that I think the perception in Michigan is that teachers have a pretty good gig. That used to be true. It's not true anymore, at least in the districts around here. We have friends and family teaching in about 10 districts on the west side of the state They're all struggling.

This fall, his district kicked off the school year with a speaker who told teachers that if they are under 45 they won't retire from public education and won't have a pension. Way to build morale. There's nothing like kicking off a hard year with a kick in the teeth.

This scenario is true in many places. Morale is LOW. To be honest, I wouldn't let my kids go into teaching (well, I would strongly recommend against it.).

And, for the record, I'm for year-round schooling.