Pro's and con's of gifted programs? UPDATE in OP

[robinsmommy]

UPDATE:
After having talked to the principal at both her school and the principal at the pull-out, I think that we'll go ahead and let her try it. She was very excited when she heard that she got in and is begging to go, so unless I hear something negative from the other parents who already have kids in the GT program, or get a really compelling reason from her teacher, we'll proceed.

It is just "extra" stuff, no core learning, but it does get her excited about learning more and that means a lot to me. I also think that since she continues to struggle with relationships with her peer girl classmates, it would be good for her to meet other kids, esp some who are also a bit quirky like her. Some of what they teach is study skills and social skills, along with, say, foreign cultures or history stuff.

If it doesn't work out, we can pull her out with no penalty for the GT programs further up the line.

I do wish there was some discrete, polite way to inquire if there are other kids in her class going, but I'm sure the school can't say anything, and I don't think asking the other parents outright is mannerly, either. So I guess we'll wait and see.

Thanks for all the input, it really does help.

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So I got the form letter today that DD1 made the cut, but I'm left wondering if I should put her into the program or not. It is a pull-out program, for a full day every week. DD is already in the Montessori program offered by our school, so I feel that her education is "a notch above" in a lot of ways.

DD's teacher is against it, but I think it is more of a general objection to having her students pulled out (unbalancing the age distribution in the class, having to catch kids up on what they missed, etc.). I do see that missing 20% of the class time is not a small thing.

I need some input on other factors involved in decision making. DD is already struggling in her class a bit socially, and I'm not sure if this would be a good thing or not. I do rather wonder if meeting more people would be a good thing. I would say that she is a bit quirky already, in the way that many bright kids are.

To be honest, I do not know whether she is truly "gifted" or just bright. I don't know that there is any testing done by the school district that can really determine that, either.

[belovedgandp]

What age is she? If this is still lower elementary than, no I don't think it is essential to her education to be part of the program. Especially if she would still benefit from the social interactions in the classroom. That is a lot of time pulled out of the room.

If you'll have the option to reconsider later, then I'd hold off for now. My second grader gets pulled out to a special reading group, but it is during the regular reading time for his class. He just goes with the gifted teacher instead of his classroom teacher. They don't do any formal identification until 3rd grade with programs starting in 4th. As long as you can feel she is being challenged with the school set up and home than I'd be hard pressed to see a major benefit at the elementary level. A little older they start having access to some specialized programs in our district that I think DS1 will find interesting, but we're a few years from that.

[robinsmommy]

She will be nine soon and is in 3rd grade. I'm not sure how much challenge there is in the school program for her at this point - Montessori tends to focus on 3rd year students helping the younger students (hence the teacher's objections). And as she has said, she meets most of the state requirements for where she needs to be as a third grader - they make their own work plans with the teacher to make sure they are meeting objectives.

I had originally had her tested to give her the chance to opt in for jr high, but am kind of second guessing myself.

I think I may call the principal and talk with her and see what she thinks.

Part of the social issue is that there are only 3 other girls her age/year in the classroom - 10 students for each year of grades 1-3, and they lost one to class changes. With 3 other girls, there are going to be tiffs and social stuff, and she doesn't always fare well in those situations.

[egoldber]

That's a hard/age grade socially for a lot of kids. Pull out programs are tough too because, as you already know, sometimes the main teacher resents that it makes more work for them.

If it were me, I would let her try and if it isn't working out or is more trouble than it is worth, pull back from it. But you never know, she may really enjoy it and it does give her time to spend with other kids.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I'd get the GIEP b/c it will be good to have in the future even if you chose not to exercise it now. I know once she gets older it will be valuable. In high school she will have access to activities, instructions and programs she wouldn't have access to otherwise. I also agree with Beth, let her try it- it might be good even now.

Beth

[mom2beofboy/girltwins]

I started a once a week pull out gifted program in 3rd grade and i truely enjoyed it. I think what i liked the most was that we got to do odds and end topics and projects that didnt fit into the typical school subjects. For instance we got to work with these high end robotic legos (im an engineer now :-) ). Our program was set up where we had a different theme each year - marine life, ancient egypt, historical artists - there are things i learned in gifted that i still remember to this day and that were way more in depth than we ever could have gotten if we had touched on those topics in regular class. I also enjoyed getting to be with kids that learned as quickly as i did.

I continued gifted through middle school where it was 1 of my 7 daily classes. There we also did topics that were less traditional school subjects. I remember getting to do animation (i loved doing claymation!), learning BASIC programming, how to debate, and other things. I really think it helped my education to be way more well rounded than it would have been.

Also, because i was in gifted, i qualified to test for some special high school programs, which got me into a specialized math, science and research based high school.

So i guess my opinion would be, let her go and try it! I think it was an awesomeopportunity for me that helped give me more options.

[wendmatt]

It's a very interesting subject, I am just doing a load of research on gifted programs for a class I am taking. If your child is not being challenged in class, I would say 100% she should go to the gifted class. She will be with other kids that might be a bit quirky like she is (as you said she was) and might be really happy in there. The teacher is not allowed to make them catch up the work they miss in regular class (unless it is a new concept).I think speaking with the principal is a good idea. I was like you, my dd was tested and got into the gifted program and I think she is bright (not sure about gifted) but she loves to go to the GT class. It used to be a whole day but it's changed to just a few hours since the cuts. If her teacher is against it because of numbers, that is a bad reason not to go. Gifted children need to be challenged to thrive and if your child is not being challenged, then that is not fair to her.
Good luck with your decision....what does your dd want to do?

[american_mama]

I think gifted education is always a good thing. Gifted classes aren't the end-all-be-all, but I think it can only add to what is being taught in the classroom. That may be influenced because of the school my children attend, which is a low income school with a really wide range of student abilities. I don't think my kids would get adequate challenge without the gifted program.

I am learning about some of the variations within gifted programs. The one most relevant to your question is whether your DD receives general enrichment services or gifted services in a specific subject, like math or reading. If it's by subject, can kids qualify for one but not the other?

If it's general enrichment, do you think your child would enjoy some of the creative, problem-solving activities they are likely to do? IME the regular classroom can be sadly short on that kind of instruction. If it's reading, do you think she'd enjoy some of the more advanced novel studies or writing activities they are likely to do?

And if she would be doing gifted math, I personally wasn't aware of how early that track starts. (I am using the tracking concept a lot here because I think in math, it is kind of a sequential track that might be hard to enter at a later point.) A gifted math class might be doing prealgebra in 6th grade, or might combine two or three years of curriculum in 5th or 6th grade. To get there, a child might need to move through the elementary curriculum faster than is normal. I know this sounds like "Your child has to do the right thing in 3rd grade to prepare them for high school" and I don't mean to be that extreme. But this is on my mind a lot lately because my DD1 is quite good at math and I've had weekly (sometimes daily) discussions with the school about where to place her. Maybe there are kids that come into their math ability in middle school and can enter that advanced math track then - I certainly hope so. But if your DD can grow in math now, why have her chanting basic multiplication facts for the rest of the year?

In terms of what she'd miss in her regular classroom, if she finds school easy, she may already know or easily learn what she misses. My DD1 is missing 50% of social studies/science due to her math placement (comes in halfway through class every day), and so far, she doesn't seem to be missing a thing. Still, I am going to request some reading material for her to cover what she missed, but it has been easier so far than I thought.

In terms of bright vs. gifted, I don't really care about terminology. I've learned that gifted means different things to different people, even those who teach or adminster the programs, and that it's a really loaded term to some. I used to think gifted meant genius, like one in a million genius, which clearly most gifted kids are not. But I no longer think in those terms. If your child is able to learn the material quickly and move on to something else, if your child often seems to take subjects a little deeper or a little further than most, I think those alone are enough reason to be in gifted classes.

[AnnieW625]

This is coming from a kindergarten parent at a Catholic school that doesn't have a GATE program, someone who has never been classified as gifted, and someone who wanted to do the pull out program but because of standardized test scores being woefully low (less than 50% most of the time) I never qualified for even a school based enrichment pull out except for band, which was available to any student in grade 4 or higher. I always felt I should've qualified just based on my straight A grades in 4th-6th grade. With all of that aside here are my opinions.

I think that gifted programs are important for children who are truly gifted and need to be utilized, but IMHO if that is the case all of those children belong in a certain GATE class, and not a pull out program mainly because the other children in the class will often feel left out and in some students it can lead to unnecessary teasing because they are jealous that they aren't able to attend. I never teased anyone, but I always felt like I was never a good enough student to attend even though I had the same grades and I hated that feeling of being left alone when most of my friends whose standardized test scores were better mine got to go. So it might sound completely off base to most parents of potentially gifted children, but I do think it is smart to think of how it might effect your child or the other children in their class.

I would do research now about middle and high school GATE programs in your district. GATE programs in my district (suburban Sacramento, CA area) in the late 1980s to mid 1990s were only available in the elementary schools. Of course those students were automatically on the track for advanced 7th grade math (aka pre algebra), advanced English, and advanced general science, but other than that there were other students in the classes who had never once been part of a GATE program. In high school this was very very evident because anyone could apply to be in an an honors class with the recommendation of the teacher, and a parent slip I believe. One thing I noticed as an outsider was that some of those kids stuck out like sore thumbs because they didn't know how to socialize well with other non GATE students and that was hard in class especially in group projects.

"Tiger" parents who expect too much from their child scare me in regards to gifted programs, but really other than the above thoughts I think they are a good thing, esp. for students who are in danger of not doing well in school only because they are bored.

[ncat]

I was in a full-time gifted program from 3-6th grade, and I believe it had a strong positive impact on my overall school experience. I really needed to be challenged!
I do not think I would have done well in a pull-out program - in early elementary school I was pulled out for reading to a class in the next grade up and it was very awkward. I was very shy and had recently moved to a brand new school, which may have contributed to my problems.
My DCs aren't old enough yet (and we don't have any gifted programs in our school district) so I have no experience with these programs as a parent.

[robinsmommy]

The math thing is part of why I debate so much. I was not popular with the 6th grade teachers, and therefore didn't get into the gifted thing in jr high. But I tested so well on the math tests that I jumped straight into algebra and skipped pre-algebra altogether for high school. I really don't want her learning pre-algebra before she has her basics down - I've seen that happen in gifted programs, and it's really sad when bright kids don't know fractions or what have you and are crippled in math later because of it.

And yes, you *have* to test now to have access to the other programs down the line. But I worry that just qualifying may leave her behind if I don't put her in now, or that the other kids may form social bonds and she'll be odd girl out if we wait.

ugh. I hate having to make decisions that feel so important so early in her life.

[ladysoapmaker]

I have 2 kids in gifted programs. It's a pull-out one day a week for DS#2 & he and the gifted kids in his class have advanced math together all week. DS#1 was in the same program and now that he's in high school he's in the honors everything and the STEM program. This year he choose not to do AP chemistry so he could do orchestra. In middle school all the gifted kids where on the same team so they went to the same core classes, electives were set up individually.

DS#1 was/is our quiet shy kid. He interacts well with older people and younger kids but is so-so with his age peers. He has a group of friends he hangs out with that he's met through the gifted program and has know some since preschool. With the SCA & LARP he's met other kids his age with the same interests so that helps with the "there are others like me in the world". He's never been socially awkward but takes a little bit to warm up to people. (Though it probably didn't help that he had to tell friends "sorry I can't come and visit I have to go to my mom's house this weekend" for most of his school career.)
DS#2 is our out there kid. No problems making friends. The pullout doesn't affect him in the least.

Growing up my schools did not have a gifted program and I can tell you that definitely made a difference on me. I did not learn how to do homework until I was in college. I was able to slide though most my classes with A's on my tests and not doing my homework because it was "boring". When I finally had classes that were challenging I didn't know what to do and how to get help because I never had to do that before. To this day my mom wishes she had known about homeschooling, as she feels that it would have helped me learn to learn better.

Just my experiences. I think even if it's a one day pull out, being challenged and learning how to deal with that is better then none having it at all.

Jen

[lovin2shop]

My DS absolutely loves his pull out GT program, and there hasn't been any downside to it in my opinion. He has told me that it is the most interesting part of his week, while recess and lunch are his favorite. Overall, he's pretty much bored by his regular curriculum. He has made good friends in the class, and I think it is regarded as an honor by his other peers so he definitely hasn't been teased or made to feel "weird". The other positive has been for me, as our district does provide some guidance and resources to parents of GT students. I would definitely say that you should give it a try.

[JoyNChrist]

I'm on my phone in between classes and haven't had time to read all the replies, but I wanted to give my input.

I was in a pull-out gifted program for elementary (started in 1st grade), along with skipping two grades. Then in junior high and high school I had special gifted English and Math classes, in addition to AP classes in high school.

IMO, if your child needs a gifted program, you'll know. If she's happy with her current education, and you don't think she's too far ahead in all areas, then you're probably fine skipping it for now. I was MISERABLE before I was tested for SPARK (what they called the gifted program at my school). I never wanted to go to school. I felt like a freak because I was so far ahead of everyone else. My poor K teacher had no idea what to do with me...what do you do with a 5yo who's reading chapter books when everyone else is learning the alphabet?

I think there's a big difference between just being bright or advanced in a few areas and being truly gifted, and parents of truly gifted children typically know there's something different about the way their kids' brains work even before testing/placement.

A gifted program was an absolute necessity for keeping me engaged in school. The disruption from being pulled out was minimal (although slightly moreso after I skipped grades, but still manageable). But I really hope my kids are simply bright and don't need a gifted program. School was difficult for me socially, and I always felt different. I want my kids to have a more normal experience.

Anyway, I said all that to say that I think you'll know if she really needs gifted classes. If you're on the fence you can probably wait, and I'm not sure it's something I would put my child in just because he qualified.

ETA - My opinion is probably colored by the fact that it wasn't cool to be smart at my rural school, and the grade skipping left me socially immature compared to my peers. I'm sure not everyone who has been through a gifted program feels the way I do. ;)

[[email protected]]

What does she want to do? Can you meet with the gifted teacher before you decide to find out more about the program?

My kids are too little for the gifted program, but it was my lifeline in elementary school and middle school.