Mean Kids--How do they get that way?

[jellibeans]

The ones that say "you can't play with us" or "i dont like you". do they learn the mean-ness from their parents? or from other kids? how do you make sure that your child doenst end up a mean kid?

[maiaann]

It's awful - isn't it. There are a few "mean girls" in DD1's class. One girl, in particular, I think was just born mean - she's a lost cause. For the most part, I think kids pick up attitude (from TV, from other kids, etc.) and parents don't do anything to sway it so they assume it's okay (or as they get older - cool) to act that way. I have a "no tolerance" for mean kids around my DDs. I won't tolerate meanness from my kids and if I see other kids being mean (sans parents), I politely tell them that isn't a very nice way to act. Bullying is a serious problem in DD1's grade school and it seems like the "mean behavior" is starting younger and younger.

[ha98ed14]

It totally sucks. There is a 5 y.o. in DD's preschool who told DD she did not like her lunchbox because it has fairies on it and this girl hates fairies. Who hates fairies? She has also said some not-so-nice things to DD. "You're my best friend" one day and "I don't like you!" the next. I don't know why she is that way. I've seen her mom in passing, drop off and pick up, and she does not strike me as the b!tchy/catty/competitive type. She has an younger brother, but no other sibs to my knowledge. It sucks because this girl is older than DD and steps ahead of her socially. DD asked me all weekend why Susie didn't like her lunchbox. I tried to keep it simple: some people like red, others like blue, to each his own, blah blah blah. But really, I wanted to say, "Because you have a pretty fairy lunchbox and she has a brown paper sack!"

This is what I have told DD:
Being a good friend means helping others feel good about themselves and helping them when they feel sad. Likewise, you should choose friends who make you feel good about yourself. If someone is saying mean things that make other people feel bad, then they are not friend material. Who wants to be friends with someone who makes them feel bad? You should be a friend by being positive and friendly with other kids.

It's very simplistic, but hopefully she'll get the nuances as she gets older.

[jren]

Every kids I've ever known has said mean things at times. I think it's just in every kid - while trying to figure out how to manage friendships. They don't know any better (up to a certain age, at least). It's up to the parents to teach them, and sadly, that doesn't happen as much as it should.

[Meatball Mommie]

Every kids I've ever known has said mean things at times. I think it's just in every kid - while trying to figure out how to manage friendships. They don't know any better (up to a certain age, at least). It's up to the parents to teach them, and sadly, that doesn't happen as much as it should.

:yeahthat:

I've heard my own kids say some mean things - I'd like to think they weren't *trying* to be mean, but just didn't realize that their wording or actions were hurtful. I immediately corrected them and then later talked to them about what they said/did. A few times they were just being honest, but it was a bit too honest, kwim?

[egoldber]

:yeahthat:

I think we need to be careful implying that children who say these things are "mean". All kids say things like this sometimes. Many times what is happening is that the kids are in a social situation that they don't know how to navigate, so they are responding in the only way they know how.

I freely admit that some kids really are mean, but most I think are just navigating and figuring things out the best they can. I think these bahviors get entrenched when they are not corrected or guided to learn more appropriate social responses.

[Melaine]

It kind of makes me cringe to hear you categorize kids who say those phrases as mean. I do think some kids could be called mean, but I think any and all kids have said those things at one time or another. My kids would not say those things to others (at this time) but HAVE said such mean things to one another. I do not think they are mean children however.

I was talking to one of my friends yesterday who is having trouble with her daughter saying very mean things to her. She is feeling so discouraged. She said, "How did she get this way?" I responded that my theological stance is that we are all born into sin. We have a sinful nature from birth. This is a very basic doctrine of my belief system. I realize that most disagree. But it follows that anyone is capable of behaving badly although we are all also capable of wonderful things at the same time. And many people seem to feel that we need to guide our children to keep the innocence of their youth, but I believe the opposite. We need to teach them to rise above their nature as we try to rise above our own (through faith in Jesus Christ).

Definitely got off on a tangent there, but I feel it applies since we had this conversation just yesterday.

[sarahsthreads]

I think we need to be careful implying that children who say these things are "mean". All kids say things like this sometimes. Many times what is happening is that the kids are in a social situation that they don't know how to navigate, so they are responding in the only way they know how.

I freely admit that some kids really are mean, but most I think are just navigating and figuring things out the best they can. I think these bahviors get entrenched when they are not corrected or guided to learn more appropriate social responses.

:yeahthat:

I also think part of it is when our children are very young, they don't tend to say things like that, but when they get older, they all do say things that are "mean". I think along with not knowing how to respond, in many (most?) cases they still haven't developed a complete sense of empathy and have no idea how their words might make someone else feel.

I was shocked and completely offended when my now 12-year-old niece came to visit when she was maybe 5 or 6 and told me my house was always smelly. Looking back now, with a 6-year-old of my own, I realize that a child that age has no filter between brain and mouth. It was true - we had a carpet that needed replacing due to an anxious dog and no matter how much we cleaned it, our house did often smell faintly of dog urine - and kids that age pretty much say everything they think. I'm holding out hope, since my niece has since turned into a tactful, wonderful human being, that DD1 will eventually too! (Also, the carpet has since been replaced with hard flooring and my house no longer stinks!)

Sarah :)

[luckytwenty]

I am noticing that kindergarten seems to be the age when you can explain that saying whatever's on your mind (like "your house is smelly") can hurt people's feelings, and that it's important to say things that make people feel good, not bad.

My kids understand that saying certain things will make people happy, and other things will make them sad. They might still say things that are mean sometimes. I think it's a matter of what ends up mattering the most: doing the right thing (being compassionate), saying what you're thinking, or, in some cases, winning peer approval by being mean/funny. I am hoping that compassion wins out for my kids. It's a very important priority to me.

[crl]

I don't know that "you can't play with us" automatically makes a kid mean. As adults no one expects us to be friends with everyone. And it is very socially acceptable to invite only some people over for dinner, etc, etc. Kids are just still learning how to set those boundaries in a polite and kind way.

And even when a statement is truly mean, I think kids often don't understand that or they are trying the behavior out. It doesn't make them mean kids.

My kid has absolutely said mean things. To me, to his dad, to his sister, to his friends. But I don't think he is a mean kid.

There are mean kids, IMO. But not very many of them. And it would take a lot more than these kinds of things to make me label a kid as mean.

Catherine

[o_mom]

I am noticing that kindergarten seems to be the age when you can explain that saying whatever's on your mind (like "your house is smelly") can hurt people's feelings, and that it's important to say things that make people feel good, not bad.


Just to add to that, many kids don't completely develop an inner monologue until age 8 or 9. So even though they may realize something they say can hurt someone, they don't always have the ability to keep it to themselves when they think something.

Some of the examples given can also be just part of kids not knowing what to do in certain situations. For example, "you can't play with us" is sometimes a 4, 5, 6 yos response because they have planned out a game with roles and when another child comes along, they don't have a role for them and can't spontaneously add to their game. So, they are saying "I don't know how you would play with us as we only have X roles and you would make X+1, therefore you can't play with us". OTOH, as pointed out by a PP, if they are not corrected or taught these skills, the 'mean' response can become ingrained.

[pinkmomagain]

Very simply, I think that kids (or adults) who tend to be mean (not just occassionally say a mean thing) are unhappy. I think they don't feel good about themselves in a very significant way. And having older kids, I have seen this time after time among some of their peers.

[crayonblue]

I only know one truly mean child. And she has issues beyond normal childhood stuff.

From what I have seen, the kids who constantly say "I don't like you" and "You can't be my friend" are not being taught that they shouldn't say these things. All kids say hurtful things at times but so many kids are not being told what they should and shouldn't say. Which is baffling because how are they going to know?

[AnnieW625]

Every kids I've ever known has said mean things at times. I think it's just in every kid - while trying to figure out how to manage friendships. They don't know any better (up to a certain age, at least). It's up to the parents to teach them, and sadly, that doesn't happen as much as it should.

:yeahthat: I hate to say it but I think that phase is completely normal. My DD went through this phase last year because there was a girl in her class with a powerful personality and an older brother who was 6 or 7 yrs. older who the girl learned stuff from and then passed on her opinions to all of the other little girls. She told DD1 that Dora was for babies and therefore DD1 started spouting off that kind of stuff and we had a talk about that and that esp. at school where there were 3 yr. olds that there was no reason to say that Dora was for babies. DD1 has never had any other mean girl tendancies that we know about (IE: the teacher has never mentioned it to us).

[jellibeans]

I had originally typed situations that have happened with my DS and a neighbor but deleted it and tried to be vague. Here is the background. We have neighbors that have a dd that is 1 year older than my DS. We were all invited to another neighbors house this past weekend. When we got there a bunch of kids were playing. My DS ran over and this little girl immediately turned to him and said "you can't play with us". This is happening continuously. I know the mom heard because I was standing with her and I heard but she didn't say anything. So I guess my frustrations should be more towards the parents and not the girl since no one is teaching her otherwise.

[ThreeofUs]

I know, when I was little, I would say things knowing they were mean but not knowing (or experimenting to know) the effect on someone else. And I had a reputation as a very nice child, lol!

Now, I watch my children doing the same types of things. Experimenting with what they say, gauging reactions, looking for the weight of what they said, beginning to understand emotional responses.

So I do think kids say mean things, and may say them deliberately. But I really believe most kids don't know how what they are saying can affect another person. This is where parenting comes in. I would think some kids don't get this and grow up into mean behaviors because they devalue how others feel, or get pleasure or power from hurting others.

I would also be frustrated with that parent. Around here, to develop this empathy, we say things like, "You didn't know this, but saying something like that makes a person feel angry/sad/bad. How do you feel when someone does something like this to you?"

[gatorsmom]

I responded that my theological stance is that we are all born into sin. We have a sinful nature from birth. This is a very basic doctrine of my belief system. I realize that most disagree. But it follows that anyone is capable of behaving badly although we are all also capable of wonderful things at the same time. And many people seem to feel that we need to guide our children to keep the innocence of their youth, but I believe the opposite. We need to teach them to rise above their nature as we try to rise above our own (through faith in Jesus Christ).



:yeahthat: I agree with this. I like to think of kids as bonsai trees. Parents need to gently trim and tweak their little bonsai trees to give them the shape they want.

I do think kids are trying to cope in social situations and some mean comments are a result of this. However, I also think, like Melaine, that kids (and adults) KNOW they are saying something hurtful and give in to that temptation. They know they shouldn't say it, but they do anyway. That's where the sinning comes into play.

Either way, parents need to be there to guide their kids through those situations. Imho, it doesnt do the child any good to say, "aw, she needs to work that out on her own" if the child has no idea how to handle or rectify the situation. Parent's guiding their child to show them how to handle social situations will benefit not just their child but the other children around them.

[m448]

I agree with PP that said it's normal but parents need to guide the kids as they try out social situations.

However, as a christian parent as well I hesitate to say that parents need to address a child's normally developmental stages as some kind of "sin nature". It's not. Also, if anyone needs to address what in protestant faith is a "heart issue" the ONLY two involved in that would be the person and God. We as parents lead by example, we guide with day to day things but to approach our day to day interactions with our children as them displaying something sinful that we need to correct is most certainly missing the log in our own eye.

[Simon]

I think its a combination of factors. I am thinking of kids who are "mean" and not just who blurt out inappropriate phrases, but who steal things from kids, withold or hide a favorite item, kids who pinch/kick/hit other kids when no one is looking and pretend they didn't do anything. This is more malicious and what I think of as "mean" behavior.

If the kid is young, IME they often have older sibs and are modeling behavior they have seen/experienced.

Some kids have parents who taunt them or model behavior that is teasing or mean. I've heard parents say things to kids that I think are awful so I don't discount modeling at home and I don't just mean homes at the extreme end of abusive.

I believe some kids do have a "mean streak" whereby they enjoy making others feel badly or they like the feeling of power when they see the effect they have on another person. Some of this may be innate and some learned.

[toby]

I had originally typed situations that have happened with my DS and a neighbor but deleted it and tried to be vague. Here is the background. We have neighbors that have a dd that is 1 year older than my DS. We were all invited to another neighbors house this past weekend. When we got there a bunch of kids were playing. My DS ran over and this little girl immediately turned to him and said "you can't play with us". This is happening continuously. I know the mom heard because I was standing with her and I heard but she didn't say anything. So I guess my frustrations should be more towards the parents and not the girl since no one is teaching her otherwise.
THAT is totally frustrating when the parent doesn't step in...and it leaves you in such an awkward position. If there are enough other children in that group, could you ignore the girl and say to the group as a whole: "is there someone who could tell DS what you are doing?"...or, if there is someone in the group who is older than the girl, or who seems like a leader: "you look like you know what's going on-- could you help out DS?" Actually, if she said this continually to my DS, I might get bold and calmly say to her: "those kinds of words make people sad" or "you are a total little butt head, but you are forgiven because your rude mother is not teaching you" :)

[crl]

I had originally typed situations that have happened with my DS and a neighbor but deleted it and tried to be vague. Here is the background. We have neighbors that have a dd that is 1 year older than my DS. We were all invited to another neighbors house this past weekend. When we got there a bunch of kids were playing. My DS ran over and this little girl immediately turned to him and said "you can't play with us". This is happening continuously. I know the mom heard because I was standing with her and I heard but she didn't say anything. So I guess my frustrations should be more towards the parents and not the girl since no one is teaching her otherwise.

I would be frustrated with that situation and that mom! And, yes, it sounds to me like the mom is missing opportunities to teach her kid to be kind and inclusive.

Catherine

[ha98ed14]

I was shocked and completely offended when my now 12-year-old niece came to visit when she was maybe 5 or 6 and told me my house was always smelly. Looking back now, with a 6-year-old of my own, I realize that a child that age has no filter between brain and mouth. It was true - we had a carpet that needed replacing due to an anxious dog and no matter how much we cleaned it, our house did often smell faintly of dog urine - and kids that age pretty much say everything they think. I'm holding out hope, since my niece has since turned into a tactful, wonderful human being, that DD1 will eventually too! (Also, the carpet has since been replaced with hard flooring and my house no longer stinks!)


I think this is different than being mean and hurtful to another child. Ok, so your niece didn't know she needed to keep her comment to herself about the smell. My DD was clueless about pointing and asking "Why?" the man we saw at Target was in a wheelchair. But saying "You're my best friend one day, and then for no other reason other than a fairy lunch box to say I don't like you..." Sorry, I think it's different. DD does need to develop a thicker skin. Not everyone is going to like you or your stuff, but I still think it was a mean thing to say. Is this little girl going to grow up to cyberbully girls at her school? Who knows? Too early to say.

[sarahsthreads]

I think this is different than being mean and hurtful to another child. Ok, so your niece didn't know she needed to keep her comment to herself about the smell. My DD was clueless about pointing and asking "Why?" the man we saw at Target was in a wheelchair. But saying "You're my best friend one day, and then for no other reason other than a fairy lunch box to say I don't like you..." Sorry, I think it's different. DD does need to develop a thicker skin. Not everyone is going to like you or your stuff, but I still think it was a mean thing to say. Is this little girl going to grow up to cyberbully girls at her school? Who knows? Too early to say.

I actually don't think it's different. I still think it's a lack of filter/lack of understanding of social norms/not thinking of other people's feelings issue. Maybe the other girl really doesn't like fairies, in fact fairies are as scary to her as monsters are to other kids, and truly doesn't want to be a friend to someone who likes them. Maybe the other girl has older cousins she really looks up to who have told her she shouldn't like fairies because they're baby-ish, and so she thinks that associating with anyone who likes fairies will make her baby-ish in their eyes. Maybe she had a bad morning before school and needed to lash out and make someone else feel bad too because she felt bad. Who knows?

The point is, I really doubt that the other girl is trying to be "mean and hurtful" to your DD, she's likely confused about how she feels herself and trying to make herself feel better. I really don't believe that makes her mean, especially at only 5 years old. DD1, at nearly 7, is still a work-in-progress when it comes to considering other people's feelings as well as her own, and I think most people would not label her as a "mean" kid.

Sarah :)

[egoldber]

The point is, I really doubt that the other girl is trying to be "mean and hurtful" to your DD, she's likely confused about how she feels herself and trying to make herself feel better. I really don't believe that makes her mean, especially at only 5 years old. DD1, at nearly 7, is still a work-in-progress when it comes to considering other people's feelings as well as her own, and I think most people would not label her as a "mean" kid.

:yeahthat:

I can easily see a child much older than 5 parroting back something told to her by an older sibling/cousin (or even acquaintance) about something being baby-ish. I know that my younger DD has a very different view about what things are "for babies" just because she see what her older sister is doing and wants to emulate her. Not that older DD is saying that fairies are for babies, but younger DD can see that older DD has moved on from fairies and could make the connection that they are something younger kids and not older kids play with.

The situation that the OP posted about (a new child entering a game when other kids are already playing) is a difficult social scenario for many, many children. It is actually one of the FIRST scenarios/social situations that they talked about and role played when older DD took a social skills class. Being able to join in a current game smoothly, without being annoying, and being able to rebuff and be rebuffed gracefully takes a LOT of social navigating that many kids have trouble with even into upper elementary.

[Green_Tea]

I agree with the posters who said what you hear said (or what your child heard) can be very different from what was intended.

Example:

This year on the first day of school I had to drop the girls and run, because it was MY first day of classes, too. DD1 was particularly upset because many (not all) parents stick around to meet the teacher and watch "opening day" ceremonies. She'd never been left to do that stuff alone, and she was nervous. I told her that I wished I could stay, but that I knew that she was old enough and responsible enough to handle being there alone.

When one of her classmates showed up, she asked DD1 where I was because her mom was looking for me. DD answered, "She had to leave, but said that I was totally old enough to be here on my own. Is your mom staying?"

What DD meant: I am nervous, but my mom knows I can handle this so I am putting on a brave face and repeating out loud what she told me.

What DD's friend (and her mother, who was listening and relayed the incident to me) thought she meant: Wow, your mom's here? That's kind of babyish. MY mom told me I'm old enough to be here on my own. I guess your mom doesn't trust you.

The mom of the friend actually hunted me down at pick up to relay the story. She clearly thought my DD was being snotty. I know my DD was nervous and apprehensive and upset that I had to leave. She was in tears when I left her. She's EIGHT. She's still learning to articulate herself and manage her emotions.

The vast majority of kids aren't mean. But all kids have an off day here and there.

And, as a reference point: the majority of the kids I would have pegged as mean in kindergarten are lovely in grade 3. They just needed to grow up a bit.

[sste]

The situation that the OP posted about (a new child entering a game when other kids are already playing) is a difficult social scenario for many, many children. It is actually one of the FIRST scenarios/social situations that they talked about and role played when older DD took a social skills class. Being able to join in a current game smoothly, without being annoying, and being able to rebuff and be rebuffed gracefully takes a LOT of social navigating that many kids have trouble with even into upper elementary.

I actually realized how bad *I* am at this recently when DS's preschool teacher told me politely to stop trying to coach DS and that he was doing great when I wasn't there! DS joined a preschool where the other kids had been together the year before and at drop off I would tell him to "ask so and so to play" and more often than not DS would be met with a blank look from the other kid. His teachers had me stand back and watch DS on his own enter a game by kind of blending in, playing with a toy on the periphery and then working his way in or just joining a little cluster and starting to babble excitedly with their excited babbling. It was much more effective than my, uh, technique!

On the mean stuff, I must say there was once when DS was "mean" to another child and I was so mortified. A girl came over to play on a playground car he was on and DS looked up at her and said very factually, "I don't want to play with you." There was no malice - - he just didn't want to play with her or at least not at that moment (they later ended up playing together). DS was honestly shocked when I talked to him and explained that that could hurt a kid's feelings. When I thought about it adults have alot more options for controlling, screening etc their social interactions, leaving an area alone, etc. Anyway, DS is normally very kind, talking about how monsters need hugs and friends to make them nice and immediately reassuring any adult in his presence who makes a mistake, "That is alright. Don't worry about it. It is not a big deal." I guess there are developmental blind spots though . . .

[Melanie]

I don't know, I wish I dd. My Dd is this way and no I don't tolerate it and am constantly reminding her to include everyone (or explaining how this or that could hurt feelings, trying to relate a situation as to how she might feel to evoke some empathy), as is her teacher. Some kids are just how they are. Know that their parents didn't create these lovely personality quirks and are trying really hard to curtail them.

[niccig]

DS doesn't always think before speaking. I do the "how would you feel if someone said that to you? What's another way to say that?"

Just last night he was rude to my Dad. I gave DS the phone and said "say hello to Grumps", meaning have a conversation with him. DS said "Hello Grumps. Goodbye Grumps." I had just given him dinner and he was very hungry, but I had to make him talk to my Dad. After the phone call, we talked about how rude it was to say that, DS admitted he would be upset if my Dad didn't talk to him etc. Tonight, my sister called, same situation, DS about to eat. He chatted with her for a bit, then gave me the phone and said "can I be done talking now, I want to eat dinner." So maybe something sunk in yesterday...