"Police Clear Zuccotti Park of Protesters"

[lmh2402]

huge news here

interested to know what you think is next re: the OWS movement?

my expectation is that the clearing will "backfire" and the protest will gain significant traction. especially as it was done – under cover of darkness and restrictions on media access.

but i do understand the need for the park to be cleaned up. and i empathize with the residents and small-biz owners in the area who had initiated their own protests at city hall.

tough situation all around.

[jenfromnj]

The OWS people got a court order allowing them to return to the park with their tents. Bloomberg has said the city plans to go to court immediately.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/zuccotti-park-eviction-co_n_1094675.html

My husband works right there, and said things are very tense around there this morning.

[wellyes]

Yikes.
America is a nation built on protest and the police's role in that is so tricky.
Fingers crossed for no violence on either end.

[larig]

Occupy Oakland has had some pretty ugly police action against them. Two in the Quan administration in Oakland have resigned over her treatment of the protesters.

[jenfromnj]

Just heard from my DH that, in spite of the order, the police are not permitting the OWS folks to enter the park. He promised to keep me updated as often as he can look out the window or get updates from co-workers on that side of the building!

[jenfromnj]

Occupy Oakland has had some pretty ugly police action against them. Two in the Quan administration in Oakland have resigned over her treatment of the protesters.

I know that many of the Occupy Wall street people are keeping their camera phones/Flip recorders handy at all times, and have captured some very...interesting...actions on the part of the police. That's not to say that every one of the OWS people are behaving perfectly at all times, but I do think that with the exception of a few outliers, they do seem to be respectful and well-behaved.

[buddyleebaby]

I know that many of the Occupy Wall street people are keeping their camera phones/Flip recorders handy at all times, and have captured some very...interesting...actions on the part of the police. That's not to say that every one of the OWS people are behaving perfectly at all times, but I do think that with the exception of a few outliers, they do seem to be respectful and well-behaved.

Have you watched the live streaming, or gone to an event in person?
A lot of the videos posted have been edited, and they don't tell the whole story.
Watching live streaming, I have seen horrible behavior on part of the protestors- verbal abuse, spitting, shoving, deliberately blocking traffic, deliberately harrassing others, threatening officers and their families, insulting officers. All while the Officers are either standing there saying nothing or politely asking them to move. My BIL was actually told he was trash based on his income level, which the protestor assumed to be low.
There are protestors who are respectful and courteous, but I think those are not are more than "a few".

I wish they would go home and occupy their living rooms for a while.

[jenfromnj]

Have you watched the live streaming, or gone to an event in person?
A lot of the videos posted have been edited, and they don't tell the whole story. Watching live streaming, I have seen horrible behavior on part of the protestors- verbal abuse, spitting, shoving, deliberately blocking traffic, deliberately harrassing others, threatening officers and their families, insulting officers. All while the Officers are either standing there saying nothing or politely asking them to move. My BIL was actually told he was trash based There are protestors who are respectful and courteous, but I think those are not are more than "a few".

I have actually been there several times (having lunch with my husband at work), and DH has seen them exhaustively as he literally works right on the park. We have also both seen a ton of streaming. We also personally know numerous people who are participating, and a good friend of my husband's is among the counsel who has volunteered their services to represent the protesters.

What we've seen live and in-person, as well as streaming, is vastly different from what you mention you've seen above. My husband saw (from 20 feet away--in person) a bunch of arrests, and has some very disturbing things to say about the conduct of the police. (And he's a lawyer who has extensive experience working in the court system and with the police and DA's office, and is by no means anti-police.) In fact, he just went down this morning to get a coffee and saw police pepper spraying folks who were literally just standing there. I'm not drawing my conclusions based on what I read on political blogs or snippets I see on youtube, I assure you.


I wish they would go home and occupy their living rooms for a while.

On second thought, I'm not even going to go there.

[Kindra178]

I wish they would go home and occupy their living rooms for a while.

Winter weather may force them too. It's been a pretty mild November throughout the country. I suspect the Chicago Occupiers will be inside soon enough. It's really unfortunate that the Occupy Movement made the same mistake as generals and other world leaders in their ill attempts to take over Russia. You can't invade in the Fall!

[janine]

I also worked in the building (Liberty Plaza) next to the "park" and have seen the site. I think the police/mayor exercised alot of restraint and frankly at this point it is becoming a cesspool and is having a significantly negative impact on small businesses / stores in the area. The mayor/police have to keep the entire city's population in mind, not just a small group of anti-establishement types who are making a career out of protesting (without a clear message).

[AnnieW625]

I am all for the Occupy groups because of free speech and I think they have a valid point to protest, but in LA the reports from the health dept. state that there has been feces waste issues and barf left on the lawn, which just grosses me out to no end and I honestly can't see why anyone would want to protest in those conditions. I think that if those conditions exist the city should have a right to shut those camps down.

[Giantbear]

I guess i don't understand why they have been allowed to unlawfully take over a park without filing for proper permits? At what point did they become exempt from the laws of the City that govern the rest of us. If you want to have a protest, file for a permit and then have your protest. The 1st Amendment does not give you the right to make a public nuisance of yourself. Had the permit been denied for no good reason, then you have a 1st amendment issue, but to my knowledge, there was no application made.

Imagine having a ragtag tent city pop up across the street from your home with 24/7 noise and the people yelling at you each day as you leave your house. How would any of us react living there and having our children kept up at night from the noise for over 40 consecutive days or seeing our business and our financial future go down the drain due to the illegal gathering right outside your restaurant or shop.

[buddyleebaby]

I have actually been there several times (having lunch with my husband at work), and DH has seen them exhaustively as he literally works right on the park. We have also both seen a ton of streaming. We also personally know numerous people who are participating, and a good friend of my husband's is among the counsel who has volunteered their services to represent the protesters.

What we've seen live and in-person, as well as streaming, is vastly different from what you mention you've seen above. My husband saw (from 20 feet away--in person) a bunch of arrests, and has some very disturbing things to say about the conduct of the police. (And he's a lawyer who has extensive experience working in the court system and with the police and DA's office, and is by no means anti-police.) In fact, he just went down this morning to get a coffee and saw police pepper spraying folks who were literally just standing there. I'm not drawing my conclusions based on what I read on political blogs or snippets I see on youtube, I assure you.



On second thought, I'm not even going to go there.

I mentioned the "flip phone" videos specifically because that is what you referred to in your post. They (the videos) are not a trustworthy source for information, and that was my point. I'm glad to hear that is not what you are basing your feelings on.

I also have friends deeply involved in the movement. Including one who was "evicted" last night. But I will not discount or downplay what the NYPD is having to deal with every day, nor will I villify them. I think, as a whole, they are doing an awesome job, while having an awful lot of ****** tossed at them. If your husband is concerned about the conduct of "the police", it is the conduct of SOME police.

I am sorry if you are offended or upset by the fact that I would like the protestors to go home. It was not meant to be offensive, truly. Just kind of a humorous "I'm tired". I am tired of traffic, and missed pediatrician appointments because the Doctor couldn't make it to her office, and fighting on facebook, and having to miss family events because a civil servant is called into work on his day off. It's frustrating. I don't see how any of this is currently hurting anyone but other hard-working people.

[YouAreTheFocus]

...I am tired of traffic, and missed pediatrician appointments because the Doctor couldn't make it to her office, and fighting on facebook, and having to miss family events because a civil servant is called into work on his day off. It's frustrating. I don't see how any of this is currently hurting anyone but other hard-working people.

:yeahthat:

I work right next to one of the Occupy encampments, and I am so over it. There have been multiple days that we can't get to work and/or can't LEAVE work, b/c public transit has been shut down. There are local businesses that are going under, b/c ppl are avoiding the area. The city is using money & resources that it doesn't have. The schools are losing funds, too. The whole thing has become completely counter-productive.

[larig]

I mentioned the "flip phone" videos specifically because that is what you referred to in your post. They (the videos) are not a trustworthy source for information, and that was my point. I'm glad to hear that is not what you are basing your feelings on.

I also have friends deeply involved in the movement. Including one who was "evicted" last night. But I will not discount or downplay what the NYPD is having to deal with every day, nor will I villify them. I think, as a whole, they are doing an awesome job, while having an awful lot of ****** tossed at them. If your husband is concerned about the conduct of "the police", it is the conduct of SOME police.

I am sorry if you are offended or upset by the fact that I would like the protestors to go home. It was not meant to be offensive, truly. Just kind of a humorous "I'm tired". I am tired of traffic, and missed pediatrician appointments because the Doctor couldn't make it to her office, and fighting on facebook, and having to miss family events because a civil servant is called into work on his day off. It's frustrating. I don't see how any of this is currently hurting anyone but other hard-working people.

it is challenging to get real reporting of what is going on when the media is barred from reporting what is going on. No matter what side of this you are on, it's hard not to be upset by the fact that the Bloomberg administration is blocking media from reporting. That is definitely un-American, and definitely suggests they are hiding their actions, or fearful of what people will see. Quote from Time (although I find it odd that it is their entertainment/pop culture blog reporting it)


Timing was only one element of the apparent effort to keep the crackdown as quiet as possible; there were several reports this morning that reporters trying to cover the raid were kept away, cordoned off, and in some cases reportedly physically pushed and restrained. Josh Harkinson of Mother Jones, who was live-tweeting the events throughout the night, reported that he was told by NYPD that journalists had to stay in a “press pen.” Lindsey Christ of local cable-news channel NY1, said on-air this morning that “the police took [the space] over, they kept everybody out and they wouldn’t let media in. It was very planned”; other journalists reported similar experiences. (Responding to a question from me on Twitter, NY1 anchor Pat Kiernan said, “Our crews had a very difficult time moving around between 1 am and 4 am. Press passes seemed not to impress the cops.”) And the New York Times’ Brian Stelter, also tweeting and sending pictures from the area and nearby Foley Square, spoke with a New York Post reporter who said he was “roughed up by riot police.”



Read more: http://entertainment.time.com/2011/11/15/nyc-un-occupies-wall-street-manages-the-media/#ixzz1dnhn6FZ4

ETA: NYT also reporting that reporters were "denied access." (http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/reporters-say-police-denied-access-to-protest-site/)

[buddyleebaby]

it is challenging to get real reporting of what is going on when the media is barred from reporting what is going on. No matter what side of this you are on, it's hard not to be upset by the fact that the Bloomberg administration is blocking media from reporting. That is definitely un-American, and definitely suggests they are hiding their actions, or fearful of what people will see. Quote from Time (although I find it odd that it is their entertainment/pop culture blog reporting it)

It is common practice not to allow press (or the general public, for that matter) onto an active scene. They (the Press) often report from behind Police barricades, as evidenced on the evening news. I don't think that necessarily means "they" (the Police? Or the Bloomberg Administration?) are attempting a cover-up. I would guess that if they (the Police) were attempting to close the park, they were telling all people (press included) to exit it, but I don't know. I think it's entirely possible that uncommon events would lead to mistakes in protocol.
I heard about it as it was happening from my friend who was posting via smart phone on facebook. I saw press photos of it this morning.

[JBaxter]

I also worked in the building (Liberty Plaza) next to the "park" and have seen the site. I think the police/mayor exercised alot of restraint and frankly at this point it is becoming a cesspool and is having a significantly negative impact on small businesses / stores in the area. The mayor/police have to keep the entire city's population in mind, not just a small group of anti-establishement types who are making a career out of protesting (without a clear message).

EXACTLY its getting nasty. The businesses are getting hurt theft is up that part is sad

[larig]

It is common practice not to allow press (or the general public, for that matter) onto an active scene. They (the Press) often report from behind Police barricades, as evidenced on the evening news. I don't think that necessarily means "they" (the Police? Or the Bloomberg Administration?) are attempting a cover-up. I would guess that if they (the Police) were attempting to close the park, they were telling all people (press included) to exit it, but I don't know. I think it's entirely possible that uncommon events would lead to mistakes in protocol.
I heard about it as it was happening from my friend who was posting via smart phone on facebook. I saw press photos of it this morning.

did you read the nyt link?

pretty damning stuff, if true.

Rosie Gray, a writer for The Village Voice, recounted telling a police officer, “I’m press!” She said the officer responded, “Not tonight.”
that disgusts me. and seems to contradict the stories put out by the administration about their handling of this.

[buddyleebaby]

did you read the nyt link?

pretty damning stuff, if true.

that disgusts me. and seems to contradict the stories put out by the administration about their handling of this.

I did read the link, after I posted. According to the article, the reporters were allowed to border the park (and take photos) but not to enter it.

ETA: If a PP's husband, who works locally, is able to see the arrests being made this morning while buying a cup of coffee, I can't imagine that the press is unable to do the same, on a regular basis.

[sntm]

I guess i don't understand why they have been allowed to unlawfully take over a park without filing for proper permits? At what point did they become exempt from the laws of the City that govern the rest of us. If you want to have a protest, file for a permit and then have your protest. The 1st Amendment does not give you the right to make a public nuisance of yourself. Had the permit been denied for no good reason, then you have a 1st amendment issue, but to my knowledge, there was no application made.

Imagine having a ragtag tent city pop up across the street from your home with 24/7 noise and the people yelling at you each day as you leave your house. How would any of us react living there and having our children kept up at night from the noise for over 40 consecutive days or seeing our business and our financial future go down the drain due to the illegal gathering right outside your restaurant or shop.

I completely agree with this. I would have sympathy for the message, except the actions have been disrespectful, destructive of public property and in violation of the law. They have done more to polarize people on the issue than anything else. Protesting and camping are not the same thing. The dreadful deaths in several locations are testament to that. I drive past the Seattle one sometimes on the way to work, and it is a dump (and this is the new site on the community college property.) What galls me is there is no other situation where this would be tolerated, but because the protestors claim oppression of free speech anytime anyone says anything about the disgusting situation they have created, they have been largely untouchable.

[lmh2402]

will be interesting to see what happens today

feels like it's reaching a make-or-break moment for this movement

if they truly have "tens of thousands" of protesters show today for their public transit occupation, that will be...very interesting.

can the federal government really continue to ignore all of this and leave it to the local city/state to manage, without *any* comment?

i don't know...

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/150933/ows-protesters-expand-presence-for--day-of-action-

[Minnifer]

My office is next to the Exchange. I came in about 45 min ago and things were ok so far - the police have effectively barricaded off the area a few blocks around the Exchange and only those with work/school IDs can get into the area. There seem to be a fair number of protesters, but we are kind of in a physical bubble so I can't tell what is happening. I can hear the helicopters circling around though, which is a bit unnerving (too 9/11-esque). I'm a bit worried about the subway situation later.

My real fear is that someone else (e.g., a terrorist group) is going to try to do something really bad somewhere in the city today while the police are occupied dealing with this.

[lmh2402]

My real fear is that someone else (e.g., a terrorist group) is going to try to do something really bad somewhere in the city today while the police are occupied dealing with this.

yes, me too

it's just such a mess. and the city is spending boat loads of money. that it doesn't have. on all of this. it's just...ugh. it's all just a big, huge mess.

seriously, when will washington weigh in? this is a national issue. i guess the issue is....what would they say? "sorry you don't have a job and you can't find a job and you can't afford health insurance and all sorts of other things. that really stinks for you. please stop protesting and screwing up city streets across the country."

[kijip]

Blocking reporters from gaining access is a very, very disturbing action and patently unAmerican. I am disgusted.

[buddyleebaby]

Blocking reporters from gaining access is a very, very disturbing action and patently unAmerican. I am disgusted.

But what do you think they should have had access to that they did not?
I am not being snarky, just trying to understand.

I fully understand why they couldn't allow people (press) into a park that was being evacuated. An EMT had his leg broken last week in the same park, while trying to treat a violent EDP who had attacked others at the OWS site. And it wasn't broken by the EDP, it was broken by the crowd who was interfering with patient care and transport (in a misguided effort to "protect" him) and knocked a ladder(!) onto his legs before falling on the ladder themselves. And that was during the course of a "regular" night.

If I was hearing about Cops taking cameras from reporters, etc., I would be concerned. And pissed. And disgusted. But since they obviously were able to report on the "eviction" and produce photos and video of the same, and they themselves report being stuck *IN* the crowd, I don't understand the claim that they didn't have adequate access.

[kijip]

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/reporters-say-police-denied-access-to-protest-site/

[buddyleebaby]

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/reporters-say-police-denied-access-to-protest-site/

I read that when it was posted earlier in the thread. I guess we are taking away different things from it.

[Reina]

Blocking reporters from gaining access is a very, very disturbing action and patently unAmerican. I am disgusted.

I understand where you're coming from. But NYPD has their reasons. It's more about clearing the way than for political reasons.

We're working on a project in one of the buildings across the park. So I am in and out of the area constantly - much to my dismay.
Last week, I saw a couple of young guys from a local news crew standing on top of a parked car. They put huge dents on the hood and roof standing, jumping on it. Then just walked away as if they did nothing. The facility manager of the building went downstairs and told the police what happened. Who knows what happened after that.

If you try to walk past the news crews, (especially the young "producer" types and cameramen) they will literally shove you out of their way with no apology or remorse. Some of the news crews are being total assholes. Also they are the aggressors who fuel some of the strife taking place because footage of people fighting makes great headlines. It's a mess down there.