have you heard the term "planned obsolescence"?

[mezzona]

just finished watching a documentary on youtube called the lightbulb conspiracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NqhD5fqbwM). it is about planned obsolescence. has anyone seen this? i know that there are objects that are created cheaply, thus with a shortened lifespan, but that things are specifically timed to shut down so that we have to buy again? new to me. care to discuss?

[rlu]

I work in the tech industry and for us it isn't so much of planned obsolescence as just knowing the technology will get better and cheaper as time goes by. When I first started working at a disk drive manufacturer they were making 8.5" and 4.25" drives but within two years the standards were 4.25" and 3.5" and then again 3.5" and 1.8". Why spend the money and drive up costs to make something that will last forever when it will be surpassed by its competitors in a year? That said, in my personal life I have clung to old technology often long pass a reasonable time simply because they did keep working. I was still using a walkman long after cds came out and our main tv is now 15 years old, a huge monster of a thing but it works well enough.

But planned obsolescence is different, you are expected to buy the same thing again, items that break just after the warranty expires.

[brittone2]

Yep.

I think we see a good bit of it with appliances. Some of it is the increased demands on the unit due to energy efficiency requirements (smaller compressors work harder I believe). However, I've read that with appliances they now only sell certain parts as part of a larger (more expensive assembly). Years ago you may have been able to buy X part, but now you need to buy the whole assembly (X, Y, and Z) for more money. I'm sure this lowers the manufacturing costs (I assume?) but I've read it is one way to tip people toward replacing our appliances vs. repairing (too cost prohibitive to repair). The appliance example isn't perhaps a clear example of planned obsolescence, but it does relate IMO.

[Katigre]

Yes, this has been the case with both clothing and appliances/electronics for years now. I first heard the term over a decade ago.

With clothing, it is made faster and cheaper (and with ever changing style/trends) so that it becomes disposable after just 1-2 years.

[wellyes]

I absolutely believe manufacturers build it in. Cars and appliances especially. They don't make 'em like they use to on purpose.

There is a reason why your grandmother's mixer or sewing machine is still going strong while a new one last 5 years max, and it's not shoddy Chinese workmanship. Well, a little bit... people do prefer a cheaper initial price even though it means a less well made product, obviously. But I think planned obsolescence is a factor as well.

[larig]

just finished watching a documentary on youtube called the lightbulb conspiracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NqhD5fqbwM). it is about planned obsolescence. has anyone seen this? i know that there are objects that are created cheaply, thus with a shortened lifespan, but that things are specifically timed to shut down so that we have to buy again? new to me. care to discuss?

I had a printer that I swear just quit. I suspect that it had some sort of counter in it that kept track of how many times I changed the ink. I read some stuff online that kind of confirmed it. I was using non-standard ink and it didn't like that, apparently, there are chips in the ink cartridges, and the printer knew and only allowed so many non-legit replacements.

[edurnemk]

Yes I have, and I believe it does happen with many products.

In fact DH used to joke that he was sure iPods were programmed to self destruct a month after the extended warranty expired, LOL.

I've also heard of the printer thing with the counter the PP mentioned.

[kijip]

What bothers me is the lack of choice. It is no longer the case that you can choose between the long term, pricey investment and the less expensive good enough but not great alternative. It's all gonna break. I don't want the cheap christmas tree lights that break every year or two. I will happily pay more , much MORE, for ones that will last a lifetime but I can't buy those because I still have not been able to find any. The expensive lights I bought lasted a few years tops. Whoop dee doo dah.

Nothing new but it don't make it right or any less annoying.

Think of all the extra garbage!!!

[maestramommy]

I hadn't heard about objects that shut down specifically. But dh tells me about cameras and ipods with proprietary batteries that will eventually die, forcing you to buy another device. Then there are the hundreds of appliances that have gotten cheaper because they are more cheaply made, breaking within 3-5 years, forcing you to buy another. This happened to our toaster oven.

We find this, to put it mildly, extremely frustrating, and could go on for hours about what this says about us as a society. But I won't. I'll just say we are fighting it tooth and nail with our lifestyle. For example, my standing mixer is probably older than 30 years, same with my sewing machine. I bought them at a discount (STEEP discount on the mixer), and they both work beautifully. Motor is quiet, and even with no bells and whistles they more than meet my requirements.

[MamaMolly]

DH and I were watching that show American Restoration and he was fixing up a tricycle from the 1940's. He said that things back then were built to last, and things now are built to sell. I think he was absolutely right.

[TwinFoxes]

I've heard of it, and I don't even think it's meant to be too much of a secret. I agree with pp though that it's different from tech gadgets that just get better. I know folks with second gen iPods that still work, but of course they've upgraded to thinner more memory ones with photo storage etc.

[Kindra178]

I live in a 100 year old house with many original casement windows. They are no more or less energy efficient than the brand new windows from our previous house. (I wish I could say the same thing about the original art glass windows). Nothing that is built today, especially windows, would last 100 plus years. People in my town actually have their casement windows rebuilt as opposed to replacing the window entirely because it is so hard and expensive to get all wood windows anymore.

When we moved into this house, we found out that the 8 year old Thermador cooktop had a gas leak. Even the Thermador repair person said it couldn't be repaired because the part wasn't manufactured anymore. One would think that a Thermador product, which is theoretically better made than other stoves, and way more expensive, would last more than 8 years.

[gatorsmom]

DH and I were watching that show American Restoration and he was fixing up a tricycle from the 1940's. He said that things back then were built to last, and things now are built to sell. I think he was absolutely right.

I agree too, which is why, as I clean out my parents' house (both parents are deceased and my dad passed away recently) , I'm thrilled to find their appliances are still working. I'm keeping them. Many of them were their wedding gifts! My mom's green, 60's blender still works as well as her iron and her sewing machine.

It is sad IMHO, that there is not more of a market for good quality, full priced products. But our society always wants a deal. No one is willing to pay full price anymore, even for good quality.

[brittone2]

I'd be curious if those who live abroad in Europe, etc. could compare their experiences w/ this to their experience in the US.

DH's former boss, and a good friend of ours, is now our neighbor 2 doors down. He and his wife are from Germany, but they have lived here for about 15 years.

He was telling us recently about his sister (eta: still in Germany) buying a Bosch appliance (washer or dishwasher, I forget?) and it had a 10 year warranty. He said long warranties were quite typical in Germany in his experience, because the Germans demand them. I realize the price is also higher than what we pay in the US for *many* things. I don't believe Bosch offers the same warranty in the US. I know some of the US-made (lower end model) Bosch dishwashers don't get the same reviews as some of their higher priced Bosch counterparts. It is fascinating to me how it varies and what we tolerate (or demand, if we're talking about price, all while shooting ourselves in the foot).

eta: we purchased our house last Feb. intending to replace appliances fairly quickly. I assumed the nearly 30 yo Jenn Air dishwasher would be horrible. Honestly, the thing works great. The fridge is an old side by side, with a stationary ice maker (the freezer door opens above the ice maker, and then again below the ice maker/water). We keep going back and forth on when to replace it, because while it is ancient, the way things go today we might buy a fridge and then have to replace it in 5 years anyway. Someone was telling me recently about Sears selling them an extended warranty (5 years) on a fridge, encouraged because of the aforementioned issues w/ compressors, etc. these days. THe cost of the warranty was 400 dollars. Eeek.

[BayGirl2]

I'd be curious if those who live abroad in Europe, etc. could compare their experiences w/ this to their experience in the US.

DH's former boss, and a good friend of ours, is now our neighbor 2 doors down. He and his wife are from Germany, but they have lived here for about 15 years.

He was telling us recently about his sister buying a Bosch appliance (washer or dishwasher, I forget?) and it had a 10 year warranty. He said long warranties were quite typical in Germany in his experience, because the Germans demand them. I realize the price is also higher than what we pay in the US for *many* things. I don't believe Bosch offers the same warranty in the US. I know some of the US-made (lower end model) Bosch dishwashers don't get the same reviews as some of their higher priced Bosch counterparts. It is fascinating to me how it varies and what we tolerate (or demand, if we're talking about price, all while shooting ourselves in the foot).

eta: we purchased our house last Feb. intending to replace appliances fairly quickly. I assumed the nearly 30 yo Jenn Air dishwasher would be horrible. Honestly, the thing works great. The fridge is an old side by side, with a stationary ice maker (the freezer door opens above the ice maker, and then again below the ice maker/water). We keep going back and forth on when to replace it, because while it is ancient, the way things go today we might buy a fridge and then have to replace it in 5 years anyway. Someone was telling me recently about Sears selling them an extended warranty (5 years) on a fridge, encouraged because of the aforementioned issues w/ compressors, etc. these days. THe cost of the warranty was 400 dollars. Eeek.

That is a good point, and having worked with design and manufacturing for large companies, I can say that companies do design/build to warranty and price targets. If a product has a one year warranty the specifications will be based on the parts lasting a year. If it has a 10 year warranty the parts will be spec'ed to last 10 years. (On average of course, think of an insurance actuary approach.) This is a cost/price tradeoff - and its primarily driven by demand for lower prices. Building something to last 10 years when a customer is only paying for 1 year of warranty would be overengineered. Companies shouldn't be building over-specified products that they can't charge a premium for, they are in the business to make a profit.

Now when I pay a premium for a higher quality product and its quality is the same as lower quality product, that is annoying. But IME companies can't continue to charge a non-justified premium for long without hurting their brand. Customers just have too much information these days.

[maestramommy]

The fridge is an old side by side, with a stationary ice maker (the freezer door opens above the ice maker, and then again below the ice maker/water). We keep going back and forth on when to replace it, because while it is ancient, the way things go today we might buy a fridge and then have to replace it in 5 years anyway. Someone was telling me recently about Sears selling them an extended warranty (5 years) on a fridge, encouraged because of the aforementioned issues w/ compressors, etc. these days. THe cost of the warranty was 400 dollars. Eeek.

We have an old GE side by side. We don't use the ice maker because the coils are all rusted, but otherwise it works fine. When we replaced the original 40 year old oven I asked the guy about replacing our fridge. His reply? "I wouldn't. You'd never recoup the savings even if you bought an Energy Star fridge. They have so many problems nowadays you'd pay more than you saved on repairs." Apparently our fridge has lasted much longer than the new models sold today. Sad.

[wellyes]

That is a good point, and having worked with design and manufacturing for large companies, I can say that companies do design/build to warranty and price targets. If a product has a one year warranty the specifications will be based on the parts lasting a year. If it has a 10 year warranty the parts will be spec'ed to last 10 years. (On average of course, think of an insurance actuary approach.) This is a cost/price tradeoff - and its primarily driven by demand for lower prices. Building something to last 10 years when a customer is only paying for 1 year of warranty would be overengineered. Companies shouldn't be building over-specified products that they can't charge a premium for, they are in the business to make a profit.

That was beautifully put! It's a non-cynical take on the built-in obsolescence that no one really likes.

[BayGirl2]

That was beautifully put! It's a non-cynical take on the built-in obsolescence that no one really likes.

Thank you - I was afraid I'd get flamed by the 99% against the capitalist greed of corporations out for a profit. :wink2: But its true, we get what we pay for. And we are all here on a Bargains forum looking for the best value for our $.

[katydid1971]

Perfect example is my washing machine and my parent's. There is very little difference between our two washing machines, my mom bought her's about 1980 and I bought mine in 2004. They have many of the same features, top loader, a couple cycles, spin dry that's it. Last year my dad had my mom's serviced and paid about $100 to have some values replaced and things oiled etc. Two weeks ago I called a repair man to look at mine and its needs a $400 transmission replacement. The repair man said they "don't build 'em like they use to" All the parts are plastic with the idea that they will wear out in 7 to 10 years. The parts in my mom's machine are metal. Her machine is 30 years old and still works great. I had to go buy a new machine because the repairs for my machine were more than what I paid for it :hopmad: At the appliance store the sales people told me that all the washing machines are now designed to last 7-10 year.

[larig]

DH and I were watching that show American Restoration and he was fixing up a tricycle from the 1940's. He said that things back then were built to last, and things now are built to sell. I think he was absolutely right.

Love that show. It really does demonstrate the difference in quality and longevity between past and present products.

I have a swing-away can opener my mom bought me in 1987 when I went to college. It's made in the USA and I STILL use it. It's just now maybe time to replace it, and I can't find a can opener made in the US. Sure, swing away makes one still, but not here, and although it looks like the old, the metal has this plasticky feel too it. It's hard to describe, but it just doesn't seem like it would rust, it seems like it would disintegrate.

[larig]

Thank you - I was afraid I'd get flamed by the 99% against the capitalist greed of corporations out for a profit. :wink2: But its true, we get what we pay for. And we are all here on a Bargains forum looking for the best value for our $.

No you're right. We as a society have made a value judgement that cheap and many items is better than fewer better quality items. We want lots of stuff, because that is the mark of success and comfort.

[edurnemk]

Perfect example is my washing machine and my parent's. There is very little difference between our two washing machines, my mom bought her's about 1980 and I bought mine in 2004. They have many of the same features, top loader, a couple cycles, spin dry that's it. Last year my dad had my mom's serviced and paid about $100 to have some values replaced and things oiled etc. Two weeks ago I called a repair man to look at mine and its needs a $400 transmission replacement. The repair man said they "don't build 'em like they use to" All the parts are plastic with the idea that they will wear out in 7 to 10 years. The parts in my mom's machine are metal. Her machine is 30 years old and still works great. I had to go buy a new machine because the repairs for my machine were more than what I paid for it :hopmad: At the appliance store the sales people told me that all the washing machines are now designed to last 7-10 year.

When we lived in Chicago our rental apartment had a 30 yo washer and dryer. The dryer finally broke down, and they couldn't get the parts for it so they replaced it. The repairman said it was a pity since they don't make them like that anymore. My current W&D are a year old and I've already had issues with both, the repairman also blames it on cheap plastic parts MIC instead of metal like they used before.

My mom held on to her first microwave oven for ages, even after it broke down and they didn't make parts for it anymore, with the hope that she'd someday find someone who would be able to fix it. We used to laugh, but now she has a Kitchen Aid microwave oven which was $$$ which has needed 4+ repairs in about 8 years, the repairman keeps telling her to just replace it because she's spent so much in repairs but she refuses to have to buy a new one every 2 years.

[gatorsmom]

Perfect example is my washing machine and my parent's. There is very little difference between our two washing machines, my mom bought her's about 1980 and I bought mine in 2004. They have many of the same features, top loader, a couple cycles, spin dry that's it. Last year my dad had my mom's serviced and paid about $100 to have some values replaced and things oiled etc. Two weeks ago I called a repair man to look at mine and its needs a $400 transmission replacement. The repair man said they "don't build 'em like they use to" All the parts are plastic with the idea that they will wear out in 7 to 10 years. The parts in my mom's machine are metal. Her machine is 30 years old and still works great. I had to go buy a new machine because the repairs for my machine were more than what I paid for it :hopmad: At the appliance store the sales people told me that all the washing machines are now designed to last 7-10 year.

Oh my gosh, if that's true, then I'm taking my mom and dad's washer and dryer too. They are from the early 80's and work fantastic. The knobs are a dark brown and they have wood-grain decorations on the front. LOL. They totally look 70's-80's. But who cares- they are hidden in the laundry room anyway.

[niccig]

We have an old GE side by side. We don't use the ice maker because the coils are all rusted, but otherwise it works fine. When we replaced the original 40 year old oven I asked the guy about replacing our fridge. His reply? "I wouldn't. You'd never recoup the savings even if you bought an Energy Star fridge. They have so many problems nowadays you'd pay more than you saved on repairs." Apparently our fridge has lasted much longer than the new models sold today. Sad.

We're in the same boat. Fridge and stove are 20+ years old. Both still work just fine. I'm itching for new appliances, but waiting until we can afford a kitchen remodel. I've seen friends with new fridge/stove constantly needing repairs. Our 7 year old dishwasher has been repaired twice. The fridge and stove just keep humming along.

ETA. My Dad has bought old washing machines/dryers to use the parts for their appliances. Same with my mother's stand mixer that is over 40 years old. My aunt's machine was same vintage, but not as much use so they've used parts from one to fix the other.

[anonomom]

This kind of thing drives me nuts. A few years back, the oven that came with our house broke -- it was about 5 years old, and a custom, almost $1000 model. The tech who came to repair it told us that it couldn't be fixed, because the broken part wasn't made anymore. WTF? Even worse, all of the actual oven-y parts of the oven were perfectly fine -- the problem was some little computer chip that regulated the temperature. There was no way in h*** I was throwing away a perfectly good oven and getting a new one just for a computer.

Luckily, DH found the part on ebay and fixed the oven himself. But the experience has definitely soured me on appliance shopping. I can (almost) see cheap products having to be replaced frequently. But when expensive products wear out and break just as frequently and the manufacturers don't even bother making the parts to repair them, then what reason is there to spend $$$ on good appliances?

[maestramommy]

Just watched the film last night. A little frustrating, since it says English subtitles, but they weren't in English! So I missed half the dialogue. :p

Actually, the most upsetting thing to me about planned obsolescence is the amount of trash that developed nations like ourselves dump on the shores of 3rd world nations. That section on Ghana was appalling. I was watching people, even kids trying to harvest scrap metal from discarded computers and thinking, that looks SO dangerous.

Dh has a harder time believe this is one big conspiracy on the part of corporations, although he didn't know about the lightbulb cartel. He is more of a mind like Baygirl that it is a two way street. As consumers we have ourselves to blame, always wanting the next new thing, but wanting it at rock bottom prices. Case in point was the guy's printer throughout the movie. Who hangs on to their printer more than 5 years (besides us, I mean :hysterical:)?

[gatorsmom]

So, if it's true what Bay Girl is saying, then the best way to shop is to look for the appliance with the longest warrantee and compare prices? This is kind of an epiphany for me. This may seem like common sense to you bargain moms, but I normally don't shop that way. Lots of factors play into my decisions- well respected brand name, price, which bells and whistles it comes with, etc. But really if I want fewer problems, I should be looking for the product with the longest warrantee. And it sounds like it might be worth it to buy the extended warrantee, in most cases, depending on who the warrantee is backed by.

So, from this revelation then, the best deal is the product with the longest warrantee at the lowest price, am I right?

[BayGirl2]

So, if it's true what Bay Girl is saying, then the best way to shop is to look for the appliance with the longest warrantee and compare prices? This is kind of an epiphany for me. This may seem like common sense to you bargain moms, but I normally don't shop that way. Lots of factors play into my decisions- well respected brand name, price, which bells and whistles it comes with, etc. But really if I want fewer problems, I should be looking for the product with the longest warrantee. And it sounds like it might be worth it to buy the extended warrantee, in most cases, depending on who the warrantee is backed by.

So, from this revelation then, the best deal is the product with the longest warrantee at the lowest price, am I right?

I don't know if it's that black and white, but warranty should definately be a factor. If its still in warranty, or a manufacturers extended warranty, they will at least still be stocking the parts you need for a repair. Once an item is out of warranty theres not much incentive for a manufacture to buy, stock, and manage spare parts (or to pay someone else to do that for them).

[gatorsmom]

I don't know if it's that black and white, but warranty should definately be a factor. If its still in warranty, or a manufacturers extended warranty, they will at least still be stocking the parts you need for a repair. Once an item is out of warranty theres not much incentive for a manufacture to buy, stock, and manage spare parts (or to pay someone else to do that for them).

This is very good to know. Thank you for enlightening me on how that works! :love-retry: