is he insane?...am i insane?...or is this "typical" 2.5

[lmh2402]

i need a reality check. DS has been more nuts than ever in the last month.

his swings in behavior and mood are SO intense and i have been "lucky" enough to have the validation of other adults witnessing it b/c of the holidays.

DH has been with us since thurs afternoon. so thurs aft, all day fri, sat, sun and today. by this evening he asked if "something is really wrong with him (DS)." lol. sort of.

to try and provide examples:
- he wakes up almost every morning and from almost every nap. in the. worst. mood. ever. like ever. i get a knot in my stomach when i hear him wake up b/c i know what's coming. one of us will go in the room, and it usually starts nicely. "hi, mama." "hi, DS. how are you?"

and from there is turns crazy. he usually screams "NOOOO!!!" and go away and get out of here. and i want to sleep more. etc, etc.

mind you, he's in bed at 7pm and usually wakes around 6:45ish. and he's in for a nap around 1 and wakes around 2:15-2:45. and we don't wake him. he's waking on his own.

anyway, fine. i've taken to trying to show no emotion. i say, "ok, call me when you want to get up."

and then he rants and screams and throws things from his crib. sometimes i'll go back in and take him out of the crib so i don't have to worry about his falling out.

whenever i get close enough, he tries clawing, scratching, hitting, kicking or biting me.

he then trashes his room for a bit while i sit on the floor outside.

he *usually* calms down in about 30 min. but about 30% of the time it's longer than that.

once we have one of these episodes, the day is usually very tenuous from there. and since it often starts first thing in the morning, that means the whole day is tenuous.

meaning he's fine one minute, but his fuse is so short that any little thing sets him off. and in the blink of an eye, he's on the attack again.

other things that seem to set him off: any meal time - he doesn't come willingly to any meal at all. any suggestion that we need to go somewhere - the store, the park, a friends' house, therapy. it doesn't matter what it is, it's a battle.

every single thing is a point of major negotiation, and his manner of negotiating is to scream like a lunatic, throw as much as he can and try to attack.

BUT, while these episodes can last 20, 30, 40 or 50 min...once he's done, the switch flips and he's cooing, "hi, mama."

like total dr. jekyll and mr. hyde style.

it's freaky. and friggin exhausting.

i know he's thrown off b/c he's been out of school for two weeks, we missed several OT appts b/c they were closed for holidays, we traveled to VT for a couple of days, and DH has been around more than usual.

i truly get that all of these things are messing with his stability.

but i am trying to gauge how typical all this is.

i am pretty convinced that if things don't change by the time the baby comes in july, i am going to have serious concerns about the baby's safety. also, i don't know how i could cope.

it really feels like i'm at war all day long. mental and physical.

anyway, does this sound like typical behavior in a 2.5 yr old?

i'm holding off on calling our psychologist b/c i know he's going to say it's not worthwhile to meet until after our routine has been reestablished for a couple of weeks. which i get. but i really need some feedback from somewhere...here...b/c i'm hanging on to my sanity by the thinnest of threads.

thanks.

[nmosur]

Have you tried a timeout for bad behavior?? Could it be that he is doing it just because he can?? My friend's DS used to behave like this just because there were no consequences for his actions.

[rin]

No BTDT or real advice, but :hug:. That does not sound like typical behavior for a 2.5 year old, although I'm speaking only from seeing my friends' kids, since my DD is only 20 months right now. However, the whole waking up thing sounds pretty extreme . . .

I honestly don't have anything useful to say, except that it sounds like you guys could really use another set of eyes/ears helping to brainstorm ways to keep both your DS and your new DC#2 safe from his behaviors. To me, it sounds like he's probably not really in a happy place either, so I suspect that having solutions would help not just your sanity and your DH's, but also his happiness and ability to engage with the world.

Is there any sort of support group in your area for families with kids who don't fit into the mold when it comes to behavior? I feel like that could be a godsend, not even so much in terms of them being able to offer advice/suggestions but also just to have an experienced sounding board to remind you that you're NOT crazy.

I wish I had something more helpful to say, but in lieu of that I'll just say :hug: :hug: again.

[lmh2402]

yes, we've tried time outs. albeit not as consistently as we should b/c it's just so flippin hard some times...and b/c with the way he's been the last month, he would literally live in his room. like all day long.

and i can't function that way. there is stuff to do. as it is, it seems like i've spent hours sitting on the floor outside his room as it is.

so, when he throws stuff, i try to ignore it. i gather what he throws, take it away and keep moving. if he's attacking, i try to block and ignore it. or if/when it gets really nuts, than i pull him up to his room for a time out.

for when it starts right out of the crib, it's an auto time out b/c he's already in his room. so i just leave.

i don't know if there are support groups for "crazy" kids around here - but if there are, i would gladly join one!!!

[Green_Tea]

I know this has been really hard for you :(. I am wondering if the psychologist doesn't truly appreciate the extent/extremity of the behavior. I know that when we took our DS to a child psych right before he turned 3, she totally blew us off. She basically told us everything I had already read in a dozen books and tried without success. She just.didn't.get.it.

Could you videotape some of these episodes? Maybe even set up a video recorder in DS's room, so you can document the behavior from the moment he wakes up and the subsequent fall-out?

To answer your original question, I don't think it sounds like typical behavior. I think it sounds extreme. I lived through (and survived!) a very, very difficult toddler/preschooler, and I really feel for you. I thought I was going to completely lose my mind. :hug:

[Simon]

The fact that he wakes up unhappy and doesn't *want* to be awake seems like a big red flag to me. It seems to imply that he isn't really getting enough rest, despite the number of hours he spends in bed or "asleep." I would ask the Dr. about sleep apnea or other sleep disorders before anything else. Does he snore at all?

Being constantly sleep deprived would explain A LOT of what you are describing.

[brittone2]

I would keep a journal (length of the tantrum, how many times a week, etc.( and consider videotaping, and then discussing with the psychologist and/or dev. ped (I forget if you guys have a dev. ped at this point I think you do?). The journaling may help down the road to connect it w/ food issues (dyes, etc.) or other triggers, and in any case it may be useful to the dev. ped and or psychologist.

Hugs to you. I'd say this type of intensity on an ongoing basis is not typical for a 2.5 yo, especially given the history of concerns you've had with him.

[wellyes]

That doesn't sound normal to me. I don't think it's a temperament or discipline issue, it sounds like something is off.... diet (food dye?) or sleep. I am sorry, that sounds so, so hard. Isn't it funny how you get used to the impossible until someone from the outside (your DH in this case) says "whoa, what is going on?"

[hillview]

I agree with Brit and Simon. I'd check on snoring but be most focused on journal of diet, sleep, and duration of tantrums. What you describe is not really IME in the range of typical. I am not a professional but I'd get a doc opinion.

[lmh2402]

thanks, ladies

i'll try to start a journal as of tomorrow

we actually have a consult set up with a nutritionist specializing in pedi cases for the end of Jan - b/c i'm fairly convinced there has to be a component that is either food dye or some sort of sensitivity related. though, i've looked through labels and really i don't see much or anything that contains dye.

however, he does get one m&m each night and that clearly has dye in it

re: snoring - i don't really notice any. i check him every night and spend at least a couple of minutes in his room just watching him and don't notice any snoring. and i don't hear it over the monitor. but of course it's possible - b/c with his noise machine on, i probably wouldn't hear snoring unless it was really loud.

i agree that the waking up miserable is a red flag. i've tried moving his bedtime up, but he wakes up equivalently earlier...so i'm not sure how to get him more rest.

something did *happen* at school right at the beginning of Dec, that seemed to set off this round of behavior. and right around that incident, his sleep was obviously disrupted - he was moaning a lot and waking up crying. but in the last 2.5 weeks, he goes in and seems to sleep right through - no noticeable waking.

ugh. anyway...thanks, guys.

[edurnemk]

DS also wakes up in a fowl mood, until a few months ago on most days our mornings were a succession of tantrums, I hated that, I broke down and cried one morning begging him to please wake up happy just for once. 2.5-3.5 is HARD. DS is very intense and his tantrums were pretty intense for a while.

Honestly the only thing that worked was isolating him. If he starts to lose his cool I ask him to calm down and breath (I taught him how to breath in and out slowly and deeply, he no does it on his own when he starts to get upset) But if goes into complete meltdown, I put him in his room and close the door (I contemplated flipping the lock so I could lock it from the outside, I know some moms here have done it). I make it clear it's not OK to disrupt everything for the rest of the family and screaming is not tolerated. He won't be allowed out until he calms down, period. If he spends all day in there so be it. There's no negotiating when he's screaming, if he goes into tantrum mode, he's not getting what he wants, no matter what.

The first few times he spent a LONG time in his room, nowadays, he's in there for a few minutes and then comes out cool as a cucumber. He now knows the tantrum gets him nothing.

Oh, and if he refuses to go to his room (I try not to pick him up as much now), I say "I don't have to put up with your screaming, so if you won't go to your room to calm down, I'll go to my room for a break". And I do go to my room and lock the door, he HATES that, he's usually at my door completely calm after 2 minutes saying "mommy, I've calmed down now, please come out".

The important thing is for him to understand that this behavior will not be tolerated at all, so you need to be consistent 100% of the time. Things did get better, though I have to say the f-ing 3's are awful, his meltdowns hit a new high the DAY he turned 3. I'm so glad we're done with 3.

I hope that helps, hang in there!

ETA: If he's hungry or tired, I tend to that cause, obviously, and that usually takes care of it.

[Indianamom2]

I agree with the others who think is is not normal. I have a very challenging now 7-year-old DD and even with all of her major sleep/anxiety issues, this sounds extreme (and we had some doozies ourselves!).

I think videotaping "typical" episodes as well as journaling would be extremely helpful. It would be best if you could manage to videotape them without Ds knowing it though.

Have you ever looked into Oppositional Defiant Disorder? I'm not super familiar with it, but it's something that might be worth looking into. I definitely think you need to keep searching for answers and trust your instincts that something is off. Unfortunately, as we have also discovered, a lot of things can't be diagnosed at an early age, even when symptoms are becoming evident. It can definitely make you feel crazy, but keep pressing for help. Looking back, even though we don't have definite answers yet, I know now that I wasn't nuts and that my instincts were spot-on, but I questioned myself MANY times, as did some very loving and well-meaning relatives. Trust yourself. Something's going on and it's going to be a journey (more like a marathon than a sprint) but eventually you'll get a clearer picture of what's really happening.

Many hugs, because this is tough stuff.:hug:

[georgiegirl]

Not normal. My DS is a about 2.5 and he can be naughty...but he has that sweet naughty glimmer in his eye...which is typical. My dd (now almost 6) has always been high anxiety and woke from every nap and in the morning screaming for the first 2.5 years of her life. But what you are describing doesn't sound right. I hope your DS is able to get some help.

[maestramommy]

Not normal. My DS is a about 2.5 and he can be naughty...but he has that sweet naughty glimmer in his eye...which is typical. .

Yeah, that's my 2.5 yo too. She can be as sweet as anything first thing in the morning, "Hi Mommy!" then the rest of the morning she can be a royal pain. But what you're describing sounds a lot more negative.

Is there any possibility he has sleep apnea? does he snore when he sleeps? Stop breathing? That might explain his bad mood in spite of seemingly enough sleep.

[hellokitty]

Two of my kids wake up in a totally foul mood too. DS2 eventually outgrew it, but it sucked, b/c for an hr after his nap, he would be screaming, nasty, and mean and none of us wanted to be around him during that time. We learned to just ignore him and eventually he would calm down on his own. Sometimes offering food/drink would help (hypoglycemia?). Now DS3 (2.5 yrs old) is going through the same thing as well right now. DH and I are like, WTF, how can someone who just woke up be such a grouch? I don't try to plead or make him happy anymore. I let him get it all out, ignore it and when he's ready, he chills out on his own and then he is, "normal" again.

So, no advice, but we rode it out with DS2 and we're riding it out with DS3. DS2 and DS3 both have VERY bad tempers and I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but DH and I both have ppl on our sides of the family (mil and my dad) who are extremely difficult and grouchy ppl. We can't help but feel that two of our kids have inherited some bad personality traits...

[Tinochka]

Don’t take any of my words as criticizing, we all are coming here to find out answers on??.
Couple of things:
1) You mentioned about noise machine. I read somewhere that constant using of it can make a child not to go to DEEP sleep mode, so, the child is not resting. I understand that you want to use it during day, so that any outside noises will not wake him up. Can you try to use it first at night time outside of his room (or close to the door), then not at all at night time and close to the door during day time?
I am not a doc, but it sound like he is not fully rested.

2) A child can be grouchy waking up by nature:(, my 1st one is like that most of the time, while the 2nd one will wake up smiling, if he is not, then smth is wrong.
With the 1st one I tried to talk him “out” of that mood, tried to ignore.... Lately I started to wait when he will choose to talk and talk pleasant, if not, I pretend that I am busy doing smth (gathering clothes for laundry). If he sound unhappy about me not greeting him, I sit down to his eye level and say, that I am happy to do, talk, but I would like him to talk nicely to me.
3) May be to use a different area for time outs, so, that he will not associate his bedroom with bad mood? I found that better to discuss thing after not during melt down (my DH tried and I observed that they were going to power struggle).
4) Did you have any changes in your life style? May be he also sense that smth is going on (excited, nervous about #2).
5) Try to observe yourself, your face expression, voce, mood, when you are around him... I noticed because of #1 was waking up not as happy as #2, that I was “wearing” worried face, not smily at all (well, yes, when you know that nothing good is coming...). After I made some efforts of changing MY face expression (well, most of the time:)), tried not to be grouchy with DH about some stuff laying around (don’t like it), things changed to better.... But may be #1 passed that face.
6) Whatever it is, just trust your instincts. Nobody else knows your child better than you.
Does he talk a lot?
I liked “How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk by Adele Faber and “The parent’s problem solver by Cathryn Tobin.
By all that means I am not perfect, I never knew that it’s so hard to raise a child. Good luck and you are not alone.

[HIU8]

You need to keep a journal and talk to the psychologist again. This is behavior is outside the norm. My DS (now 7) NEVER woke up a day in his life happy--until about age 6. I'm talking screaming, crying etc... Naps were also the worst. I wanted to leave the house when DS napped and have someone else deal with it. When DS woke from a nap he cried for up to 2 hours straight. DS did these things on a regular basis--so imagine what a change in his schedule was like. Thankfully he has outgrown a lot of this, but we still have things we do when DS's schedule is off to help him regulate himself.

What I found that has worked for DS when he has to miss OT due to closure etc... was to find things for him to do that would expend a great deal of energy. We would do play places, bounce house places, go for walks--basically do anything to keep him physically busy. That would cut down on the meltdowns. DS also liked (and still likes) deep pressure. We made a game of smooshing DS between two pillows, using a trampoline with crash pads (dog bed pillows), going out to swing etc....

[kijip]

Not normal. Document and see some one more responsive. I am sorry. That sounds awful.

[SkyrMommy]

:hug: That sounds terrible. I think the journal and videos will be such a stong push to any doctor or psychologist to get to the bottom of this.

[TwinFoxes]

Not normal. Document and see some one more responsive. I am sorry. That sounds awful.

:yeahthat: I'm sorry, I agree. One DD is what we call "dramatic". She has fits and tantrums. But it's nowhere near what you describe (duration, frequency, violence). We see a developmental pediatrician for their language delay, and she has given us coping strategies for that DD. She says if DD gets worse we need to look further, luckily our strategies are working. But your DS is worse. You and your DH feel something is wrong. Find someone who will listen. Videos are a good idea. :hug: Good luck

[Jo..]

I will chime in with another not at all normal. :( That sounds just awful.

I'm sorry.

It sounds like he needs something therapy? discipline ? (???) and I would be at my wit's end too.

[kbud]

I'm sooo sorry and I can relate. My now, almost 8 year old dd was very, very similar. While I'd say it's not "normal" there is not necessarily anything wrong either. I can only speak from my experience but my dd was simply very challenging, strong willed, and full of energy. She literally drove me to tears daily. We had about 8-10 full blown, horrible tantrums every day. Not a thing worked or helped. Everyone had advice, just do this, discipline more, set more boundries, give more choices, and so on and so on. Nothing worked or helped. I felt as if I was an island because no one got it, except my mom who often said she had a child like that, yep me... I have a degree in Human Development and Family Studies and focused on early childhood and I was at a loss. It was like this for us from about 16 months (did I mention she woke every 1 1/2 to 2 hours her first 2 years and NEVER napped!) until about 4. Now at almost 8 she is wonderful! We almost didn't have dd #2 because I just couldn't handle dd#1 and to be honest, mothering was no fun! I had dreams of 3-4 kids and being a SAHM. I never thought my sweet little girl would bring me to tears on a daily basis.

One thing I found with my dd is that she really needed a ton of stimulation. The more going on the better. Often ignoring was the best for her. She was often put in her room with the door locked while she destroyed it.

I really have no good advice except that for us it did slowly get better. Although you feel alone you are not. I get it. I read The Strong Willed Child be James Dobson. It was the first book a read where I felt someone knew my child and understood our situation. All the other books and things I learned in school for "normal" children were a joke for my situation.

We had a thread awhile back discussing something similar. I'll see if I can find it.

Certainly I can't say there isn't something else going on with your DS but I can say I had a very similar experience and my dd is just fine. She can still be rather hyper but she is thriving at school and at home. In fact no one can believe the stories I tell them about her now.

Hugs to you.....I really understand.

[3isEnough]

My 2.5yo DD often wakes up in the morning and from nap in a very grumpy mood and it can take a very long time to get her happy again, all the while with her pouting, yelling at us, etc. So in that respect your DC sounds exactly like mine. However, that's where the similarities in behavior stop - we don't experience the other behaviors you've described. I don't have any advice other than what PP's have offered, but just wanted to send hugs. I'm sorry it's so hard right now. :grouphug:

[KpbS]

I agree w/ PP---not normal behavior even for the moody 2-3 yo. I would call the psychologist and insist on an appt. Definitely video the tantrums--the waking and afterwards. What is really a red flag for me is the off/on throughout the day, sometimes triggered by something minor, other times, something more significant. Huge :hug: Hang in there and keep seeking help. Maybe a new psychiatrist/psychologist. :hug:

[kbud]

Here's the thread I was referring to. It's a bit different about discipline but several of us with "spirited" child share our experiences, particularly near the end of the thread.

http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=403333

Your post about how he doesn't want to go anywhere reminded me of the many times my dd threw a fit when I said we were going to Disney World. We live nearby so went often and she loved it. In fact it was the one place where she behaved very well and we had no fits. But just because she loved to challenge and refuse to do whatever I suggested she'd throw a fit when I told her we were going. We ended up getting season passes because it was the one place dd and I could go and hang out during the day and have a good day. DH thought it was a wonderful thing for us to do while he was at work. It beat coming home to both of us in tears!

[sste]

We are finishing up working with a parent coach - - a behavioral child psychologist trained specifically in behavior modification who works within a structured developmental program at a hospital. And that was for behavior nowhere near as challenging as what you are describing. The program we went to has I suppose not a surprising patient mix - - autistic, other developmental delays and issues, and precocious/gifted children (or some combination). Anyway, they run the parents through a very set program that involves education, then implementing various aids step by step. So, session by session we learned "forced choices," figuring out motivators and using those as rewards, using a simple 1-2-3 timeout system for physical aggression or other seriously aggravating behavior (they were sparing on timeout if only because it stops working if you use it constantly), implementing a visual schedule, handing out "wait cards," etc. They have a gym at our center and it is all play based. As you progress the parent works with the child behind a one way mirror and the therapist observes and "coaches."

This program works. They do tailor it to the individual kid but the bedrock aspects of it work across a very surprising range of the child population.

There is no way I could deal with what you are describing. In my book, it DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS NORMAL (and I don't think what you are describing is) - - if it is not working for you and your family, if one individual is causing incredible disruption, then it must be addressed. FWIW, one of my motivators in taking my DS to this center was that when my DD came along it became clear how terribly unfair it was for DS to dictate so much of our time with his behavior.

[LexyLou]

The fact that he wakes up unhappy and doesn't *want* to be awake seems like a big red flag to me. It seems to imply that he isn't really getting enough rest, despite the number of hours he spends in bed or "asleep." I would ask the Dr. about sleep apnea or other sleep disorders before anything else. Does he snore at all?

Being constantly sleep deprived would explain A LOT of what you are describing.

:yeahthat:

My DD1 was like this. I mean it was like walking on eggshells all the time. I even did tape her outbursts because people didn't believe me. It was horrible. MISERABLE!

It really maxed out for right around your sons age. I had a baby and a toddler who was always a mess.

Finally, I had enough of my Dr just telling me I had a "spirited kid". Nobody wants to feel/act like that.

So we decided to seek the help of an ENT and a sleep specialist. Turns out she had SEVERE sleep apnea. She had her tonsils and adenoids removed and I swear, it's like a new child emerged. I was just telling DH, that I don't think we remember how bad it really was.

She's still a hyper-sensitive kid and we still have issues with her freaking out, but it's like night and day.

I don't know if this is your answer or if he's just so off his schedule he's acting up, but if this has been going on for awhile (not just these past two weeks), it can't hurt to look into it.

[Uno-Mom]

Oh lord, how awful! I'm so sorry.

If its any comfort, I think you are wisely looking from all angles and, frankly, I'm totally impressed you have your wits around you enough to be analytical with all that to deal with! It sounds to me like you'll be taking apart a complicated puzzle: maybe health/sleep, a strong-willed personality, a difficult age, whatever so severely upset him at schools, the holidays, schedule chaos, possibly some new discipline ideas for you and dh, and on and on and on.

It sounds like he's hit a perfect storm of all those variables hitting at once and just sending him into total chaos. (sorry for my mixed metaphor there.). Damn, that stinks,.but maybe a (minescule) bright side is that it hit now and you can get those answeres before the new baby arrives.

One practical question about the sleep thing: is there any chance he is reacting to his light being turned on? I know it sounds goofy but that can really throw some kids with disorganized systems. You mentioned white noise and other therapies so it made my mind turn to sensory stuff. His sudden violent mood change seems to indicate SOME kind of trigger. I look at even tiny environmental stimuli when trying to figure out that kind of reaction.

[OKKiddo]

:yeahthat:

My DD1 was like this. I mean it was like walking on eggshells all the time. I even did tape her outbursts because people didn't believe me. It was horrible. MISERABLE!

It really maxed out for right around your sons age. I had a baby and a toddler who was always a mess.

Finally, I had enough of my Dr just telling me I had a "spirited kid". Nobody wants to feel/act like that.

So we decided to seek the help of an ENT and a sleep specialist. Turns out she had SEVERE sleep apnea. She had her tonsils and adenoids removed and I swear, it's like a new child emerged. I was just telling DH, that I don't think we remember how bad it really was.

She's still a hyper-sensitive kid and we still have issues with her freaking out, but it's like night and day.

I don't know if this is your answer or if he's just so off his schedule he's acting up, but if this has been going on for awhile (not just these past two weeks), it can't hurt to look into it.

I read the OP's story earlier and I was just getting on to suggest looking at the adenoids!! We're in the same situation right now with our 3.5 year old son. He's so hard to deal with. Both of my sons (ages 5 and 3.5) were diagnosed with PDD-NOS, however we've all (Dr's, therapists, and teachers) come to the conclusion that my 3.5 year old likely isn't autistic at all. He was diagnosed due to considerable speech delay and tantrums with hyperactivity and based on his older brother's diagnosis (his diagnosis was definitely correct). Six months after DS2's diagnosis he got tubes placed in his ears and it was like night and day for his behavior and hyperactivity. His speech made huge leaps and bounds and we were amazed. Then the ear infections began again even after the tubes and it's like we've gone completely back in time to the beginning of it all again. We went back to the ENT and found out that he's likely had an adenoid infection most (if not all) this time!

We're now embroiled in this mess of trying to get the infection out for good (we're on the 3rd course of oral antibiotics and it's not working). I really hope that your situation is something that you can figure out soon. Good luck!

[hillview]

One more thought -- would a snack and a sippy cup help? Something he could use to soothe or if he is hungry. DS2 can be a bear if he is up for 10 mins and doesn't get something in him right away. Again not a total silver bullet but a thoughts.
/hillary

[khalloc]

My DS was just like that at age 2. He woke up so cranky! I am happy to say that he has grown out of it. He is now 3 (almost 4) and about 85% of the time he wakes up fine without being in a bad mood. Its always better though when he can get up on his own. It helps that he is not in a crib and can come out when he is good and ready.

[sidmand]

It sounds a bit like DD. FWIW it has gotten better as she's gotten older. I hope to never have to wake her up but if she wakes up on her own (and goes downstairs) she's okay. But I call it waking the bear and I dread it. It never goes well.

She also used to have major tantrums seemingly for no reason. That too has gotten better as she's been better able to communicate. But she did qualify for EI and for current services in preschool because they think *something* is going on but no one is sure what.

I used to say she was an angel 75% of the time but the 25% of the time she wasn't it was SO bad I seriously would put myself in a time out and cry. It is MUCH better now. Now it's about 90/10 :).

[daisymommy]

Well, it was typical for DS#1, and you know how my story goes. I *hated* wake-up time, and any transition time.

I don't want to upset you, but no, it's not "normal". But then, you know something is wrong, and that is why you have been a great parent, and have your child being evaluated and in therapy right now.

When my DS woke up, I would very quickly whisk him onto the couch, and have his favorite video playing, hand him a cup of milk, and then get out of the way. I could not speak to him, touch him, nothing, for a full 30 minutes. He had to "come back to this world" as we used to say, before he was approachable. This lasted until he was maybe 3. Transition times (switching to another activity, going somewhere) were murder, required advanced warning, even then there was often an anxiety attack and meltdown. He still has trouble with transitions, but it's more having trouble stopping what he is doing and moving on, sometimes there are tears, but it's much better than when he was younger.

Keep going with the therapy, watch what he eats, try to get him as much sleep, routine and consistency, and know you are doing the best you can for him right now! There are no quick and easy fixes on this journey with a special needs child :hug:.

[mctlaw]

I am sorry for what you're going through with your DS. I don't have much to add but to say IMO experience, it's totally normal for a LO that age to wake up grumpy from naps...my DS did and I know many others whose LOs were the same way. HOWEVER, the extent and the severity of the behavior is what seems not normal. I agree there must be something going on with your DS. Hugs, mama. :hug:

[AnnieW625]

I think that the behavior isn't normal although the age between 2.5 -3.5 like others have suggested is just plain hard and demanding. When we had to do time puts at that age we placed a chair in the middle of the kitchen and set the timer for 2 minutes. If DD moved off of the chair we added another 15 to 20 seconds.

I think I would do something similar what Daisymommy did with her DS1; have a snack/milk and a short video ready for him as soon as he gets up. Now if your child psych. said there is to be no images then maybe have a book or something else ready to go with his snack.

Good luck!

[brittone2]

PPs bring up a good point. Many kids, particularly those with other developmental concerns like sensory issues, etc. have a tough time with transitions. This is something that the psychologist may be able to assist you with...developing routines to aid in transitions. The therapist(s) DS is seeing may also be able to discuss some transition tips w/ you as well. It is one of those things that may not help 100% but may be useful during other times of transition, etc. down the road.

[elektra]

Also wanted to chime in, as I also have a 2.5 yo currently.
You have posted numerous times about the challenges with your DS, and so obviously it's already on your radar that he may be exceptional.
My own DS has been a handful this past month. First I was gone for a long weekend, then he got sick, then we had the holidays which greatly disrupted his schedule. He has been throwing tantrums, hitting, waking up in the night, and getting really angry when things don't go his way. And then he can also turn on a dime and be fine shortly thereafter.
I think all the aforementioned disruptions, in addition to just being 2.5, is part of the reason behind his behavior changes.
However, he is not exhibiting the level of violence that you describe with your DS. But wasn't your DS already having some of those tendencies? I guess what I am trying to get at is that all of the schedule changes plus the age could be contributing to some of the changes you are seeing. But the level of tantrums and violence you are describing still do not sound normal to me.

[Gena]

My DS is very grumpy upon waking up and always has been. DH and I joke that DS is the kind of person you just can't talk to until he's had his 2nd cup of coffee. (No, we don't really give him coffee.) We build lots of time into his schedule to alllow him to wake up and settle down.

DS has had a variety of sleep difficulties: falling asleep, staying asleep, history of night terrors, nightmares, etc. It's been a real challenge.

Melatonin helps DS get to sleep and a weighted blanket helps him stay asleep. When he sleeps solidly he is easier in the morning.

Also, a high quality Omega suppliment and extra B-vitamin suppliment help stabilize his mood overall.

[lmh2402]

thanks for all the great feedback

wouldn't you know, yesterday i was READY - had my video camera charged and already put in his room b/c if he had seen me walk in with it, he would have flipped to a whole new level

anyway, wouldn't you know...he woke like an angel!

and yesterday was overall, actually a pretty good day - number of screaming scenes was minimal - only one that i can recall right now.

today again, lovely wake-up.

i know part of it was b/c my mom came yesterday and he is in love with her...whenever she's there in the morning (she slept over), he is trying to leap out of his crib to find her...so he was happy as could be when i left for work

something is still funky with school. without rehashing, here's my post from early dec.: http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=419864

something about this other child is seemingly still upsetting DS.

on monday i asked him if he was happy to be going back to school. and he said, "X (other kid who was being evaluated) cries and takes things all the time."

i know X has behavior problems at school - his mom and the teacher have both mentioned this.

i said to DS, "well, doesn't Mrs. (teacher) help you or the other kids when X takes something? it's ok to be upset, but X isn't trying to be mean - he is just excited to play with all the stuff you guys have."

anyway, DS dropped it. and when i brought him to school yesterday he was fine going in.

this morning, my mom called me at work to say he started with the crying again on the way to school. saying he didn't want to go.

when he got into the room, the first thing he asked the teacher was, “where is X”

the teacher said he was home sick, and with that, DS walked in and went to play without another word about wanting to go home, or not wanting to go to school.

I am not sure what the deal is with this kid – yes the kid is very loud and maybe a bit aggressive and I know he “gets in trouble” a lot. His mom said he is always being put in time out at school for hitting, spitting and biting, etc.

But DS is seriously obsessed with him. If you ask him about his friends at school, X is the first one he lists. He says he wants shoes like X. he says he likes to play with X. etc, etc.

Yet he also seems terrified of him.

i asked the teacher about their interactions toward the end of last year when it seemed apparent that DS was sort of obsessed with him - the teacher said to her observation, they barely even interact. DS stays out of his way and X barely seems to notice that he's there.

there is nothing I can do – this kid is in his class. and honestly, he really doesn’t seem like that bad a kid. He’s got some stuff going on and I am pretty sure next year he will head to the public preschool for a special needs program that I think he qualified for. but for now, he’s here to stay. plus, if it wasn't this kid, it could be someone else. DS is going to encounter kids and people in life, that rub him the wrong way. right? he's got to learn to deal.

anyway, i don’t know how or if this is playing into DS’ behavior, but I suspect that it is.

I will call the psychologist later today if I get a chance from work, otherwise I’ll call tomorrow.

Definitely going to try and journal episodes and looking forward to our consult with the nutritionist

Again, thank you guys. You always provide such great ideas and support.

[gatorsmom]

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry you are going through this. I read through your post quickly. But from what I read, your DS sounds like my Greenbean. And I can tell you Greenbean was an absolute nightmare over Christmas break. It was horrible. And then our regular routine restarted on Monday and he was much better. Not as easy as our other kids, mind you. He is never that easy. But he was much better than over break.

I would call the psychologist. We see one for Greenbean and I find those sessions are just as much for me as for him. It's validating to hear from the psychologist that she knows how hard it is and what I'm dealing with. And it gives me hope that maybe we are making progress. IIWY, I'd make that appointment and get in there.

I just wanted to add that I"m SO VERY GLAD your DH got to see your DS's outbursts again. He needs to see it loud, clear and frequently so that he's not on your case about how your DS is getting better just by having one good day. But I'm sorry about how hard it has been for you.

If it makes you feel any better, Greanbeen just turned 4yo 2 months ago and I've seen progress. As he gets older he communicates more often why he is tantruming and what I can do to help. It's still not ideal but it's getting more frequent and he seems more calmed down when he can communicate about what's wrong. I work hard, though, to try to get him to think about what is going wrong, and ask him frequently why is he crying/biting/hitting/screaming? I try to ask if it's because he's hungry/thirsty/tired/needs to go potty. I want him to get in the habit of trying to think for himself why he's behaving badly. It's a work in progress. :hug:

[AuGoldie]

My DS had tantrums like the one you described from 18 months till about 2.5yo. Now he is 3 are they are pretty rare but we still deal with them occasionally. What I found to be the major culprit was hunger. He would wake up from the nap ravished but he was too worked up to eat at that point, so it was a battle to get him to sit down and eat so he could feel better. I finally caught on to the problem and I would give him a yogurt and a slice of turkey right before the nap so he wouldn't wake up so hungry and this helped ALOT. Other tantrums that he had that were not hunger related we find that isolating him and removing anything over stimulating works, also taking him outside quickly right when its about to start can sort of shake him out of it. 2.5 seems kind of old to be a crib???/ Maybe he's mad that he's stuck in there?? You could wait till things level off in your house and then transition into the big boy bed. We keep a gate at the doorway so he can't roam around at night. My son wouldn't hurt us (maybe because we spanked him the couple times he ever tried) but he would hit his own head on the ground when he was very very worked up. We learned to watch him closely because we were worried he'd get a concussion or something. He's outgrown all these nasty behaviors so there is hope! For a while they were everyday sometimes multiple times a day and they would last 20plus minutes. None of this surprised me because I remember when I was a teenager my toddler cousins did the exact same thing, I seriously don't think there is anything wrong with him!