If you've read "The Help" [Archive] - Baby Bargains & Baby 411 Community

Cam&Clay

01-09-2012, 06:40 PM

It is definitely based on the truth. My mother was a 20 year old married woman with a newborn in 1963 in the South. She and my father could not afford "help" but both had been raised in houses with maids.

My mother used to speak very affectionately about the women who worked in her home. I do believe that my grandmother was very unusual in how she treated them, and she was criticized for it. One of the maids they had seemed to always be pregnant. Each and every time she had a baby, my grandmother would take my mother shopping for a baby gift and drive down to the "other side of town" to visit the mother and baby. Apparently, many of the Southern ladies thought this was horrifying. My grandmother didn't care.

DH was raised in a very wealthy Southern family. I say "was" because it's all fallen apart in recent years. Anyway, we were dating in high school in the 80s and his family had "help." Her name was Mary and she had been working for their family since DH's father was a little boy in the 50s. She was truly part of the family. MIL still visits her and sends her money.

It was very real, and I'm sure that more often than not, it was more like the way described in the book than it was with my families.

american_mama

01-09-2012, 07:37 PM

Melinda, what amazes you about the timing and the author's age? I have not read the book, but plan to. My neighbor and good friend is a professor of African-American literature and I heard her practice an informal talk she gave about the book, so I'm curious about your impressions of the book.

As a point of interest, my friend is from West Palm Beach, FL. In the course of preparing for this talk on "The Help", she told me that her grandmother, who worked as a domestic, had to carry an identity card with photo to work on the island of Palm Beach. She included a copy of the exact card in her talk, and her son, aged 8, looked at it and said "Was Nana in jail?" No, sweetie, Nana had to carry an ID card just because she was black and was on her way to work in her own town, clearly a suspicious activity (insert eye roll). The city regulation was not abolished until 1983 and, based on the newspaper article from the time, faced a lot of opposition, even then.

MamaMolly

01-09-2012, 08:01 PM

I grew up in the deep south in the 70's. We were not super well off but my mom was a housewife and we had help, a dear lady named Miss Aida who came on Tuesdays. Much of the book rang true to me, though I agree with the PP who said the characters were a Halmark version of reality.

Growing up Our house was a ranch style. We were the second owners. It had a workroom with a separate entrance not more than 20 feet from one of the other 2 back doors. The workroom also had a mop sink and toilet. I clearly remember asking my mom about the workroom door. She said it was the maid's entrance for the former family. We never used that door, btw. My dad put a workbench in front of it.

maestramommy

01-09-2012, 08:20 PM

Much of the book rang true to me, though I agree with the PP who said the characters were a Halmark version of reality.

Could you explain what you mean by that? Because what pulls me so much is reading the thoughts of the black women. Do you think the thoughts aren't genuine? or too typical?

americanmama, I guess I'm wondering how much of the attitudes were observed firsthand by the author and how much of it was more in the generation before her. I lived in Memphis from 76-77. Now granted, that's not the deep south, but I'm still shocked I guess. A good number of my classmates were black, and my homeroom teacher was a black woman. Though I do remember my mother telling me (after we moved away) that our next door neighbor warned her (after our house got egged on Halloween)there was a Klan in the area, and that no minority family ever stayed longer than a year. I'm not sure if that's why we left, or if it was just a function of my dad's job. The nearby neighbors were nice enough, we played with their kids no problem.

MamaMolly

01-09-2012, 10:49 PM

I agree with you, the thoughts and experiences of the black women in the story are so compelling. I do think they were genuine, as I said it rang true for me.

It has been a while since I read it, but the reason I said it was a Hallmark version is because I think things were even *more* complex than in the book. After thinking it over, I guess I mean that I think reality was darker.

Indianamom2

01-09-2012, 11:29 PM

Well, I'm 33. I grew up in Delaware, right on the line between Delaware and Maryland in fact. I grew up in a tiny Methodist church in Maryland, where every single summer, they had an ice cream social. The church members made the ice cream and other items, but being on the coast, we always had oyster sandwiches and soft-shelled crabs.

For as long as I can remember (and our family left that church when I was 15, so around 1994) the church would use black women to fry the seafood. They were in the same kitchen with the almost completely white church members, but there was very little mixing and the black ladies were never a part of our church at all....the only time they were ever around was when there was large-scale cooking to be done.

I grew up with it and never really thought about it because that's just the way it was, but looking back, I wonder what in the world was going on! I do wonder what those black ladies thought, cooking for the "white" church. I'm certain it wasn't an intentionally racist thing at all, but rather that's just the way it was done.

So I guess I say all of that to say that as late as the early 90's "the help" still existed in some forms in certain areas of the country. It's hard to imagine, but it's true. I have a feeling that the story rings fairly true and that if anything, it slightly sugar-coats the way it really was.

overcome

01-10-2012, 12:13 AM

Yes, this is how it was in the south. My dad grew up in South Carolina. He is in his 70s.

Lucille was employed by his family from the time she was 16 until her retirement, around 50! According to both my father and his sister, she was treated well, even rode in the family limo at my grandfather's funeral, however, my grandmother made her spray the toilet with lysol when she was finished using it.

It is amazing that this happened in a time that is relatively close to today. Loved the book and the movie. Don't know if I could manage to eat a piece of chocolate pie again though.

kijip

01-10-2012, 12:49 AM

To me it comes off as hallmarkish because it is written from the perspective of a kind white lady risking her standing and marriage proposal to help "the help"...ie "the others". Based on historical accounts, it was much much worse and I would believe it given what I hear from my dad and his relatives who grew up with Jim Crow. Don't get me wrong, it is a good book and compelling but I think it is a watered down account which was written by a white woman for a primarily not-AA audience.

strollerqueen

01-10-2012, 01:01 AM

Wow. I grew up in a color-blind part of CA, and I never saw any of this. And I am so glad. I never even knew it existed, until I was in college. My neighbor was from a small town in GA. One day, I brought her with me to my best friend's house. She broke out in a cold sweat and said "Your friend is black!" I said "So?" She said "Why didn't you tell me?" And I said "Why would I?" That's when I realized how different the world can look, depending on your color of glasses.

daisymommy

01-10-2012, 10:28 AM

It has been a while since I read it, but the reason I said it was a Hallmark version is because I think things were even *more* complex than in the book. After thinking it over, I guess I mean that I think reality was darker.

:yeahthat: My father and his entire side of the family is African American. We can trace back to when our first family member came to America, by slave trade. So there are abundant stories in our family of the past, including up to modern day, of my grandmothers and aunts working as "the help." I can tell you that the stories are not only very real, but actually too nice, in the book. I'm sure there were kind, fair, employers back then, but it was not the overwhelming norm.

Fast forward, when my mother (who is white) and father were first married, interracial marriage was still illegal in certain states in the South, and my parents didn't dare go visit my father's family for fear of their own safety. This was maybe 1 year before I was born. Shudder.

TwinFoxes

01-10-2012, 10:45 AM

I completely agree that it was Hallmarkish. I enjoyed it, but I think a book written by an actual maid would have been completely different in tone, and much scarier. I am glad that they included the Medgar Evers murder, which 1/2 of my book club didn't realize was a real event! And no disrespect to anyone here, but I don't think anyone's family tells stories about how badly they treated their help.

And where is this colorblind part of California? I lived there (SD, LA, and various Bay Area cities) all my life and must have missed it. ;)

kijip

01-10-2012, 10:54 AM

I am glad that they included the Medgar Evers murder, which 1/2 of my book club didn't realize was a real event!

What the WHAT?! That makes me really sad...this is not ancient history, people are responsible for knowing it.

wellyes

01-10-2012, 11:02 AM

It feel good to be having this conversation close to MLK Day. It was a profoundly different world in the US 50 years ago, when this book was set, and it was a determined group of people taking very great risk (see: Medgar Evers) who changed that.

I can tell you that the stories are not only very real, but actually too nice, in the book. I'm sure there were kind, fair, employers back then, but it was not the overwhelming norm.

The part where Minny is afraid her employer's husband will shoot her was kind of played for laughs, and then he turns about to be a generous-spirited nice guy who knew along anyway. But the truth is, if he had shot her, he'd have no legal concerns whatsoever. Or beat her. Or raped her. To have no physical or legal protection whatsoever was the norm those ladies lived with. Even with a kind, fair employer it was a scary and unjust position to be in. Never mind the indignities of people wrinkling their noses at sharing a toilet with you.

daisymommy

01-10-2012, 11:40 AM

And where is this colorblind part of California? I lived there (SD, LA, and various Bay Area cities) all my life and must have missed it. ;)

That's too bad :( I was very, very lucky that being born and raised in SoCal, my experience was wonderful. Everyone was very diverse, racially accepting, and kind to one another. I lived in liberal areas so I'm sure that was why.

Now, it was a huge slap in the face and culture shock when my family was moved to Dayton OH my senior year of highschool. The cafeteria was actually segregated--by student's choice. I was the talk of the school once people figured out I was mixed. I felt like I had stepped back in a time warp. Awful.

Fairy

01-10-2012, 12:35 PM

I grew up on the color-blind north shore Chicago suburbs. Not that much color there, unfortunately, but the color that was there I was completely blind to. I was also blind to pretty much any racism. It was only when I got to colllege that racism against me showed me that it really does exist and that I was incredibly lucky to have the life I did growing up where I did. I do remember watching Roots as a child and crying hysterically. I just didn't know people might actually be real live racists "today" (as opposed to "the old days" my young perception was). I loved "The Help" equally as a book and film, and that's unusual for me, I usually prefer one over the other.

Fun fact --> Katherine Stockett knew Octavia Spencer before she wrote the book and wrote Minnie based on her. When the book was optioned to a film, one of the conditions was that Octavia Spencer had to play Minnie. I am ROOTING for her big time for an Oscar for her portrayal of the Terible Awful.

TwinFoxes

01-10-2012, 12:37 PM

That's too bad :( I was very, very lucky that being born and raised in SoCal, my experience was wonderful. Everyone was very diverse, racially accepting, and kind to one another. I lived in liberal areas so I'm sure that was why.

Now, it was a huge slap in the face and culture shock when my family was moved to Dayton OH my senior year of highschool. The cafeteria was actually segregated--by student's choice. I was the talk of the school once people figured out I was mixed. I felt like I had stepped back in a time warp. Awful.

I think California is very diverse etc, and I love and miss it. But I don't think it's color blind at all. It was in SF, can't get much more liberal, that I was called Sambo. I'm not saying "woe is me" I'm just saying racism exists in California too, and we (Californians) shouldn't think it's only a Southern issue.

lizzywednesday

01-10-2012, 12:42 PM

I haven't seen the film, but I tore through the book recently.

Without the film Ghosts of Mississippi, I wouldn't ever have heard of Medgar Evers. I don't know that my history books glossed over it or that we just ended up rushed when it got to the civil rights cause or what. I'd never heard of him. (And I watched a good chunk of Eyes on the Prize on PBS as a kid. I'm sure he's mentioned in that, right?)

But, with the direction this thread is going, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I ought to spend the $15 my college alumni association wants for a screening/reception/historical discussion & lecture event as I've not yet seen the film, but am curious about how things changed from page to screen. It would be a good reality check for me.

mommylamb

01-10-2012, 12:59 PM

It's amazing how much time is spent in HS history classes covering things like the French and Indian War, and how little time is spent covering things like the Civil Rights Movement or other aspects of Post WWII 20th century. I think there are a lot of people out there who have never heard of Medgar Evers.

kijip

01-10-2012, 01:18 PM

I think there are a lot of people out there who have never heard of Medgar Evers.

Wasn't the trial that finally convicted his killer a really big deal though? It was when I was on hs, so not that long ago. I know I had a more comprehensive civil rights education than typical because of the school I went to (which was coincidentally across the street from a center named for him) but I am surprised. I took classes on this period in both high school and college. I have always assumed he is one of the most recognized people murdered during the civil rights movement. And one of the only cases where the juries at the time deadlocked rather than convicted, thus opening the door up for a conviction later on. So many cases ended with outright acquittals.

lizzywednesday

01-10-2012, 01:25 PM

Wasn't the trial that finally convicted his killer a really big deal though? It was when I was on hs, so not that long ago. I know I had a more comprehensive civil rights education than typical because of the school I went to (which was coincidentally across the street from a center named for him) but I am surprised. I took classes on this period in both high school and college. I have always assumed he is one of the most recognized people murdered during the civil rights movement. And one of the only cases where the juries at the time deadlocked rather than convicted, thus opening the door up for a conviction later on. So many cases ended with outright acquittals.

It is definitely a big deal, but I think that many schools' end-of-year curriculum didn't leave a lot of room for "modern" history. I know mine didn't.

Even my AP US History II class (Jr. year of high school) kind of raced through it because of the AP exam - each of us was assigned a different part of the last unit ("modern" history - post WWII through Perestroika, give-or-take) and we presented that to our classmates so we raced through the end unit in a week, rather than several weeks, as the exam was just around the corner.

I'd love to see a more comprehensive coverage of certain topics, but, depending on the region you grew up in, different things seem to get different weights. That said, I wonder what kind of enrollment a "Civil Rights in US History" elective or even a mini-course might have at my old high school, which is in a fairly affluent and predominantly white suburb in northern NJ. It would be a great enhancement to the curriculum, but I don't know if there are resources to do something like that.

mommylamb

01-10-2012, 01:31 PM

Wasn't the trial that finally convicted his killer a really big deal though? It was when I was on hs, so not that long ago. I know I had a more comprehensive civil rights education than typical because of the school I went to (which was coincidentally across the street from a center named for him) but I am surprised. I took classes on this period in both high school and college. I have always assumed he is one of the most recognized people murdered during the civil rights movement. And one of the only cases where the juries at the time deadlocked rather than convicted, thus opening the door up for a conviction later on. So many cases ended with outright acquittals.

Big deal or not, I'm sure there are a lot more people familiar with the OJ trial.

I'll be honest, I never learned about specifically Medgar Evers in high school that I can recall. My high school American history class was taught by the school's football coach and focused on U.S. history up to the Civil War. The "teacher" gave extra credit on all exams for questions like "Who won the Super Bowl in 1980?" College is a different story, but only because of the classes I chose to take. I could easily see how someone could be well educated and intelligent, and still not have a grounding in Civil Rights history.

Aishe

01-10-2012, 01:31 PM

I think California is very diverse etc, and I love and miss it. But I don't think it's color blind at all.

:yeahthat: Seriously, have we already forgotten Rodney King and the aftermath? I love California, but I see a whole lot of racial strife all the time. If you're not seeing it, I have to think you don't have your eyes open.

kijip

01-10-2012, 01:39 PM

MamaMolly

01-10-2012, 01:55 PM

When I started teaching it was in a predominately AA area (one white child in grades P-K through 4). Black History Month was a HUGE deal, with lots of people and history covered. There were bulletin boards all over the school, student presentations, music shows, etc. etc. etc.

Flash forward 5 years to a different district and a more diverse population (10 languages spoken in the homes of our students out of a school of 650+ kids) and I was *shocked* that Black History Month was 'covered' by having an older student read off an historical tidbit over the morning news broadcast. (FWIW I did more in my classroom to supplement ;))

Sadly, I can totally see Medgar Evers not even registering on the radar at the second school.

swissair81

01-10-2012, 02:11 PM

Every school decides what it is that is important to it. I went to private school, so this is not something likely to happen in public school, but I took 5 years of Jewish History and 1 year of Holocaust history in addition to our state mandated curriculum. I took American History twice (7th grade and 11th), and we definitely learned about civil rights as well. I believe we read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry in one grade for a literature selection, and my term paper in one class was on Brown v. Board of Education.

SnuggleBuggles

01-10-2012, 02:36 PM

I might have been taught it but it never really struck as much of a chord with me compared to reading and seeing "The Help".

I went to see "The Help" with my mom and the conversations we were able to have on the drive home were so enlightening. She was born in the 40s so she had a lot of memories of the Civil Rights' movement (even though she grew up in the north). I'm all for making things easy and accessible, which I think "The Help" did in a way that history classes don't tend to do.

TwinFoxes

01-10-2012, 02:38 PM

:yeahthat: Seriously, have we already forgotten Rodney King and the aftermath? I love California, but I see a whole lot of racial strife all the time. If you're not seeing it, I have to think you don't have your eyes open.

I tend to agree. I also think that there is no such thing as being colorblind. Diverse or lack of overtly racist acts does not mean that a place is colorblind.

This is exactly what I was trying to get across.

ETA: Oh, and re: Medgar Evers, the women in my book club who didn't know it was a real event were born in the 60s around the time it happened. So it probably would have been in their history books. But they also admitted they weren't very good students.

sste

01-10-2012, 02:44 PM

I was just talking about this book with some friends and I was underwhelmed with it as a work of literature.

However, what you all have mentioned is the real value of the book. Slavery is outside of generational memory now. And I think slavery and the general history of discrimination bear on modern-day questions such as affirmative action. I trend somewhat weak in my support of affirmative action - - with some of my concern being its misuse as I have seen it play out. But I will say that reading that book made me reconsider and made fresh again the idea of societal reparations.

lizzywednesday

01-10-2012, 02:46 PM

Every school decides what it is that is important to it. I went to private school...I believe we read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry in one grade for a literature selection...

I agree that each school will decide what it values.

Our 6th-into-7th grade summer reading selection was Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry but all we did with it was take a test at the start of the school year.

It would have been a WONDERFUL jumping off point in both our English and Social Studies courses for further discussion, but it didn't come up.

The other books in that series by Mildred D. Taylor are amazing - the first, Song of the Trees, is very short and could be handled by kids on the 3rd-5th grade level and the book that follows Roll of Thunder, Let the Circle Be Unbroken is absolutely amazing. It's very in-depth in some ways and covers issues I'd never been exposed to in my town ... and issues I am still ignorant of today. The last one I read was The Road to Memphis, which brought the characters a lot closer to the Civil Rights Movement time period. (They start out during the 30s, right?)

crayonblue

01-10-2012, 03:40 PM

I think California is very diverse etc, and I love and miss it. But I don't think it's color blind at all. It was in SF, can't get much more liberal, that I was called Sambo. I'm not saying "woe is me" I'm just saying racism exists in California too, and we (Californians) shouldn't think it's only a Southern issue.

It's here. It may be directed more toward Hispanics than African Americans but it is here. (At least in my area which has few African Americans.)

I grew up in deep East Texas and yes, there was a TON of racism. Not the same type as The Help (no one I knew had "help") but total segregation (like the lunch room) and no way on earth would you see black and white people dating. Plenty of attitude toward Hispanics too. All my life I heard that Mexicans are lazy and black people are dumb. Not explicitly stated outright but jokes and comments meant to make you think that.

When we moved to the D.C. area, I was thrilled by the diversity and the totally different attitude toward minorities (who were often the majority in our neighborhoods, churches, schools). However, I soon realized that the prejudice was still there, just presented differently.

I don't think there is anywhere on God's green earth where one set of people don't think they are better than others.

ETA: My personal pet peeve is to use the word "color blind" in relation to people. My daughter was Mayan and I'm pretty sure everyone noticed her beautiful brown skin!

american_mama

01-10-2012, 04:09 PM

>> I'm starting to wonder if maybe I ought to spend the $15 my college alumni association wants for a screening/reception/historical discussion & lecture event as I've not yet seen the film,

I think this would be fascinating, based on my conversations with my neighbor (the professor of AA literature). Even hearing a black literary analyst analyze this book, in an audience of half black and half white women, I am still a bit confused about her take on it and the larger perception. There is a lot there, in the history of race relations discussed in the book, the stories of women in the home, the reactions of the contemporary readers, the issues of who gets published and why (my friend pointed out would an autobiography of a black domestic have gotten published? would the book have been as successful if it was fiction written by a black author?).

My husband is black and his reaction, as well as my friend's initial reaction to the book, was the same, a dismissive "I don't need to read another book about a black maid working for a white woman." My MIL once said something similar to me about "The Secret Life of Bees," a story of a white teenager and her black housekeeper in the segregated south living with a group of black sisters. I remain confused by the statements - my friend teaches AA literature specializing in AA women's literature, so it's not like she doesn't deal with issues of race, fiction, and historical context all the time - but clearly, the topic pushes some personal buttons.

I'd say go to the talk and see what you learn. If I knew you, I'd go with you!

lizzywednesday

01-10-2012, 04:17 PM

>> I'm starting to wonder if maybe I ought to spend the $15 my college alumni association wants for a screening/reception/historical discussion & lecture event as I've not yet seen the film,

I think this would be fascinating, based on my conversations with my neighbor (the professor of AA literature). Even hearing a black literary analyst analyze this book, in an audience of half black and half white women, I am still a bit confused about her take on it and the larger perception. There is a lot there, in the history of race relations discussed in the book, the stories of women in the home, the reactions of the contemporary readers, the issues of who gets published and why (my friend pointed out would an autobiography of a black domestic have gotten published? would the book have been as successful if it was fiction written by a black author?).

My husband is black and his reaction, as well as my friend's initial reaction to the book was the same, a dismissive "I don't need to ready another book about a black maid working for a white woman." My MIL once said something similar to me about "The Secret Life of Bees," a story of a white teenager and her black housekeeper in the segregated south living with a group of black sisters. I remain confused by the statements - my friend teaches AA literature specializing in AA women's literature - but clearly, the topic pushes some personal buttons.

I'd say go to the talk and see what you learn. If I knew you, I'd go with you!

I just looked up the prof who's supposed to lead the discussion and her other published books look absolutely fascinating! She seems to have an interest in this kind of history-telling:

http://history.rutgers.edu/faculty-directory/192-white-deborah

Really interesting. Now I'm more intrigued!

niccig

01-10-2012, 04:20 PM

gatorsmom

01-10-2012, 04:34 PM

The cafeteria was actually segregated--by student's choice. I was the talk of the school once people figured out I was mixed. I felt like I had stepped back in a time warp. Awful.

Wow. just wow. How old are you? Growing up in Wisconsin there was very little diversity. There were 2 black kids in my whole high school (there were many more Hmong in our high school be cause they were moved here in the 70's). The 2 black kids in our school were very popular. One was quiet the other one had a lively, outgoing personality. Both of them had many close white friends. I just can't fathom treating other people like that.

Sorry you endured that. :(

lizzywednesday

01-10-2012, 04:35 PM

I don't know much about the civil rights period in history as I grew up outside of the USA and it wasn't covered in my HS curriculum. I did major in History at college, but I didn't do American History.

Any recommendations for books?

Nonfiction or fiction?

I'd recommend the PBS-classic "Eyes on the Prize" (miniseries and companion book) to give an overview of the movement. I'm sure it glosses over some points, but seeing as how I vividly remember B&W photos of an open-casket service for a young AA man who was beaten to death by white men for using a drinking fountain, it may not be as sanitized as I remember. (This scared
me a great deal.) Miniseries here: http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Prize-Americas-1954-1965-Narrated/dp/B005EXVUEI/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326227619&sr=1-5

Resources on pbs.org: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/eyesontheprize/

Find the book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Prize-Americas-1954-1965-American/dp/0140096531/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326227554&sr=1-1

CAVEAT: I haven't read it personally, but the miniseries made quite an impression on me. (Not as great as it might had I seen it when I was older, but an impression nonetheless.)

Another one to read is Having Our Say: The Delany Sisters' First 100 Years (http://www.amazon.com/Having-Our-Say-Delany-Sisters/dp/0385312520/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326227141&sr=1-1) which is an oral history taken by a NY Times reporter from two elderly Black women who lived in Harlem. They saw quite a lot during their lives and the book is well-written and very warm in the homey parts and frightening in the not-so-homey parts. (I read this during my US II course in high school and it made a big impression on me.)

And The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks touches on some of the issues inherent in "institutionalized" racism - paternalistic attitudes towards races, ideas of inferior/superior races, etc. - while exploring medical ethics and everything science knows about cells.

Fiction-wise, I'd recommend the Mildred D. Taylor Logan family books - Song of the Trees, Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, Let the Circle Be Unbroken and The Road to Memphis. I don't know if there are any more, but I've read these 4. The 1st one is very short and written at a grammar-school reading level, but the others are a bit more complex and nuanced.

Hope that gets you started!

gatorsmom

01-10-2012, 04:36 PM

ETA: Oh, and re: Medgar Evers, the women in my book club who didn't know it was a real event were born in the 60s around the time it happened. So it probably would have been in their history books. But they also admitted they weren't very good students.

And there is a very, very good chance that the books that covered the story sugar-coated it. I guarantee they didn't cover the actual horrors that that poor boy endured. Not in textbooks in the 60's or 70's.

TwinFoxes

01-10-2012, 04:38 PM

I don't know much about the civil rights period in history as I grew up outside of the USA and it wasn't covered in my HS curriculum. I did major in History at college, but I didn't do American History.

Any recommendations for books?

http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Prize-Americas-1954-1965-American/dp/0140096531/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Is the companion to the PBS series and is a very good primer. It's written by Juan Williams (yes that Juan Williams) and is very highly regarded.

http://www.amazon.com/Parting-Waters-America-Years-1954-63/dp/0671687425/ref=sr_1_23?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326227555&sr=1-23

http://www.amazon.com/Pillar-Fire-America-Years-1963-65/dp/B000SZVDXU/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

http://www.amazon.com/At-Canaans-Edge-America-1965-68/dp/0684857138/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

Is a very good series of books. Taylor Branch is a very famous and respected scholar.

You can also watch "Eyes on the Prize" from PBS. I don't know if it's on their site or not. It's a really great series.

niccig

01-10-2012, 04:38 PM

Nonfiction or fiction?

And The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks touches on some of the issues inherent in "institutionalized" racism - paternalistic attitudes towards races, ideas of inferior/superior races, etc. - while exploring medical ethics and everything science knows about cells.

Either fiction or non-fiction. Thanks for the recommendations. I'll go the library. I just finished The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks for book club. My jaw dropped several times re. racism and medical ethics. I do know some things about the civil rights movement, but not enough.

TwinFoxes

01-10-2012, 04:45 PM

And there is a very, very good chance that the books that covered the story sugar-coated it. I guarantee they didn't cover the actual horrors that that poor boy endured. Not in textbooks in the 60's or 70's.

I think you're thinking Emmit Till. Another awful chapter in US history. Medgar Evers was a civil rights activist who was gunned down in the driveway of his house and his kids basically watched him die. The trial of his murderer happened in the 1990s. There was a movie about it, but I don't remember the name.

maestramommy

01-10-2012, 04:49 PM

I mostly grew up on the northern edge of Chicago, about 2-3 miles south of Evanston. We did NOT learn about Medger Evers in HS. I would've remembered that. In fact, US History didn't go much beyond some of the Vietnam War. Mississippi Burning came out when I was a kid, but I was too young to see it, so I didn't learn about individual hate crimes until well into my adulthood. Like the bombing of the church where 4(?) little girls were killed. Ghosts of Mississippi was much later, but I really didn't see movies much, so it didn't register on my radar.

There was plenty of diversity in my neighborhood, and in my HS, which was not a neighborhood school. The BSU was huge. Yet Black History Month was never made much of. Not as much as our International Days Festival, which ran for 3 days and featured every ethnic club. I really don't know why. I was in grade school (in Evanston) when the Rodney King beating happened, as well as the trial and subsequent riots. WOW, that was an eye opener. My family had been living in L.A for only a couple of years before it happened, in N. Hollywood, and they saw a lot of the bleedover. It gave new meaning to the words "racial tension."

10 years later I was teaching in an all girls prep school in Pasadena, mostly white and affluent. Black History month was a BIG DEAL. I wonder about that too.

tribe pride

01-10-2012, 04:54 PM

I agree, Eyes on the Prize is excellent.

I'm not sure how in-depth you want to go with reading, but I recently read White Flight: Atlanta and the Making of Modern Conservatism, which I found fascinating. It uses Atlanta as a template for how desegregation, busing, and the rise of white suburbia occurred in major cities throughout the US. Also, I'm about to start Carry Me Home, a history of the civil rights movement in Birmingham. It's pretty long, but DH is a history teacher, and he recommended it and said it's not too overwhelming/academic.

As far as fiction is concerned, I LOVE Christopher Paul Curtis' books. They aren't all about the civil rights movement (although his newberry honor book The Watsons go to Birmingham, is). Curtis is black, and his children's books feature black narrators describing their experiences growing up in different periods (Depression, Underground Railroad). They are funny and touching, and while they do address issues of Civil Rights and injustice, I appreciate that they also cover other topics about the black experience.

swissair81

01-10-2012, 05:29 PM

I agree that each school will decide what it values.

Our 6th-into-7th grade summer reading selection was Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry but all we did with it was take a test at the start of the school year.

It would have been a WONDERFUL jumping off point in both our English and Social Studies courses for further discussion, but it didn't come up.

That's too bad. We read it in 7th grade, and we extensively dissected the book. We also had an awesome teacher who was all gung-ho about us reading it. I used to have nightmares about the way they were treated. My grandfather was a concentration camp survivor. I have heard first hand about what can happen when people decide they are better than someone else.

wellyes

01-10-2012, 06:06 PM

Eyes in the Prize is probably the best documentary series I've ever seen. It inspired me to study history in college with a focus on AA.

lizzywednesday, you're thinking of Emmett Till. He was visiting from Chicago and whistled at a white woman. Just a kid. His mother's choice to keep an open casket for his mutilated body, and invite photographers, was incredibly brave. I still see that image on my mind's eye too.

kijip

01-10-2012, 06:23 PM

Either fiction or non-fiction. Thanks for the recommendations. I'll go the library. I just finished The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks for book club. My jaw dropped several times re. racism and medical ethics. I do know some things about the civil rights movement, but not enough.

Parting the Waters is a great place to start- I read it at citymama's recommendation and it is great. The whole set is great, but very dense and takes awhile to get through when you are busy. I met John Siegenthaler and reading the book was surprised to see his name over and over. Many of the people in the book are still alive or have just recently died (or feasibly could still be alive if people had not killed them).

California

01-10-2012, 06:57 PM

Just recently finished The Help, haven't seen the movie yet, and it made me think of hispanic women I knew in LA who worked as housekeepers and nannies. While we don't have legalized racism anymore, we continue to have a social structure across the US that provides low wage service labor to upper middle and upper class families.

Don't you all think one of the saddest indicators of the continued racism in our society is the imprisonment of male African Americans? The numbers just boggle my mind. Thought this was a good article on it: http://criminaljustice.ncbar.org/newsletters/criminaljusticefeb11/racialdisparities.aspx

liamsmom

01-10-2012, 08:38 PM

I just finished Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin. It's the true story of a white man who consumed melatonin in order to pass as a black man. He then traveled around the South--in the early 1960s--to observe and experience segregation first hand. What I found remarkable was that so many things are still the same. How people use religion or regional culture to justify the ill-treatment of others. I highly recommend it.

I haven't read the Help, but I did see the movie with my mom. I'm not a fan of stories told through the perspective of a "white savior" during the Civil Rights movement. I find it off-putting that Skeeter goes off to continue a successful writing career while Abileen and Minny get to still be maids. Much like in real life, Kathryn Stockett has a best seller that was made into a movie while the real Ableen continued to be her brother's maid.

I think it's important to recognize that White Privilege enables people to be oblivious to racism in all parts of the country. I'm not constantly followed around by salespeople and security when I'm in Nordstrom's. I can find Band-Aids that match my skin color without a problem. Some of my friends aren't so fortunate.

gatorsmom

01-11-2012, 02:01 AM

I think you're thinking Emmit Till. Another awful chapter in US history. Medgar Evers was a civil rights activist who was gunned down in the driveway of his house and his kids basically watched him die. The trial of his murderer happened in the 1990s. There was a movie about it, but I don't remember the name.

You are right. I saw that movie. Whoopie Goldberg starred in it as Medgers wife. Very good movie.

Another one I found moving with some great acting is Something the Lord Made. It tells the true story of Vivien Thomas, a black cardiac pioneer who worked alongside cardiac surgeon Alfred Blalock at Johns Hopkins University . It stars Mos Def and Alan Rickman (Alan Rickman with a southern accent is a hoot, btw). The movie ends on apositive note but it's sad that Vivien Thomas couldn't receive the acknowledgement he deserved for his work until 30 years later. And it's sad that this man's talents were purposely overlooked by not only the surgeon whom collaborated with but the entire community of cardiologists he taught and worked with.

mjs64

01-11-2012, 02:48 AM

>>Even hearing a black literary analyst analyze this book, in an audience of half black and half white women, I am still a bit confused about her take on it and the larger perception. There is a lot there, in the history of race relations discussed in the book, the stories of women in the home, the reactions of the contemporary readers, the issues of who gets published and why (my friend pointed out would an autobiography of a black domestic have gotten published? would the book have been as successful if it was fiction written by a black author?).

My husband is black and his reaction, as well as my friend's initial reaction to the book, was the same, a dismissive "I don't need to read another book about a black maid working for a white woman." My MIL once said something similar to me about "The Secret Life of Bees," a story of a white teenager and her black housekeeper in the segregated south living with a group of black sisters. I remain confused by the statements - my friend teaches AA literature specializing in AA women's literature, so it's not like she doesn't deal with issues of race, fiction, and historical context all the time - but clearly, the topic pushes some personal buttons.

Let me try to respond a bit but preface it by saying that I am white. This is an important disclosure, as hopefully will make sense.

This most eye-opening course I ever took was a course on 19th century African American Literature, which I took to get my master's in English Lit. I'm now finishing my PhD. A course in 19th c. AA lit necessarily studies the genre of the slave narrative. Slave narratives played a major role in the abolitionist movement. Most slaves, though not all, were illiterate (were denied education of course), and their stories were told to abolitionist who then introduced, published, and disseminated them to a white audience with the primary purpose of persuading them of the horrors of slavery. It's crazy, but much propaganda existed to persuade whites that blacks enjoyed being slaves (thus the stereotype of the happy slave). Slave narratives that were composed by blacks themselves were always prefaced by a white writer, verifying the narrative's authenticity and veracity (otherwise, the worry was, the stories contained would not be believed). Perhaps the most famous slave narrative, Frederick Douglass's, is introduced in this way. The point is, African American writing began being moderated, transcribed, written by whites.

It's problematic then that 150+ years later, we still have whites writing on behalf of blacks. Even if the intention is "good." Many literary critics are skeptical of this kind of writing because it assumes a position of power that it dangerous. The prof's questions ultimately are about power. Who has the power to write? To be published? To be heard? Furthermore, literature and media in the US has the tendency to type blacks in less powerful positions. We see blacks on film, on TV, in literature, in blue collar jobs, as members of gangs, etc., far more than we see them as doctors, attorneys, etc. So that may be why some aren't so interested in seeing/reading yet another story about yet another black maid written by yet another white person.

StantonHyde

01-11-2012, 02:56 PM

The good thing about books like "The Help" is that they do hook audiences who might not read books traditionally classified as AA literature. I agree that there is a huge issue of who gets published and promoted. But if the Help gets people reading about this time in American History, then that is a starting point.

lizzywednesday

01-11-2012, 04:13 PM

That's too bad. We read it in 7th grade, and we extensively dissected the book. We also had an awesome teacher who was all gung-ho about us reading it. I used to have nightmares about the way they were treated. My grandfather was a concentration camp survivor. I have heard first hand about what can happen when people decide they are better than someone else.

I agree that it's too bad we didn't do more with the book. There's so much more that could be done with it than we did.

Several dear friends of mine are descendants of concentration camp survivors, so I've heard a lot of their stories, too. Our drama club did a production of the stage version of I Never Saw Another Butterfly when I was a sophomore and I had a lead role, but the character didn't "click" for me until I visited the "David's Story" exhibit at the National Holocaust Museum a month before our final production. (I am not Jewish and I didn't know many people who were anything other than "culturally" Jewish until college.)

I don't think it had ever occurred to me how scary it is when someone makes that kind of decision before I went through that exhibit.

lizzywednesday

01-11-2012, 04:16 PM

...
Another one I found moving with some great acting is Something the Lord Made. It tells the true story of Vivien Thomas, a black cardiac pioneer who worked alongside cardiac surgeon Alfred Blalock at Johns Hopkins University . It stars Mos Def and Alan Rickman (Alan Rickman with a southern accent is a hoot, btw). The movie ends on apositive note but it's sad that Vivien Thomas couldn't receive the acknowledgement he deserved for his work until 30 years later. And it's sad that this man's talents were purposely overlooked by not only the surgeon whom collaborated with but the entire community of cardiologists he taught and worked with.

That movie was EXCELLENT.

Alan Rickman and Mos Def are such wonderful actors and the story was so poignant ... and it might surprise you to know that cardiologists are still using a variationthose doctors' repair on kids who are diagnosed with tetralogy of Fallot (the heart defect that caused the "blue baby" in the intensive care unit)

I wouldn't watch it again, simply because the subject matter is far too close to home for me with my DD's heart defect, but it's a film so worth watching!