Private school over having another child... [Archive] - Baby Bargains & Baby 411 Community

goldenpig

01-11-2012, 11:45 PM

I've posted before about my waffling about whether or not we are done after two. DH theoretically would like another, but practically is leaning against it and I agree it would be a major disruption, more crowded in our house, more stress to our relationship, more financial stress, etc. But I still have all our baby stuff and both girl and boy clothes in Space Bags, for some reason I just cannot make a decision and let go yet...

DD is going to K next year and initially we thought we'd just send her to public K and save all the money we are currently spending on her preschool each year toward college (preschool is super expensive just like everything else around here). We have a nanny for DS, but he is going to preschool next year. Well, there's this K-8 private school (not in our city but right across the street from DH's work) that is just stellar in every way (not just academics, but their whole mission and approach to education and creating well rounded individuals). Daily PE. Spanish and Mandarin integrated into the curriculum. They have a strong community service and global focus as well. Everything we would ever want in a school. I toured it before when we were looking at preschools and thought, this is the only private school I would consider sending her to. And visiting there (then and now), it just felt like the right home for her.

Well, we toured the local public school today and I am sadly very disappointed. I really had high hopes for the school but I didn't get a good vibe there. All the principal seemed to talk about was budget limitations--growing class sizes (she said they're at their highest ever), what they can't do because they don't have the money, no foreign language instruction, etc. And when I asked about the gifted program (that was mentioned on their website) she said "Oh, we don't really have one...the whole district gets like a couple thousand dollars so it's not enough to do anything. We do have a program for learners who are behind but even that I'm not sure if we'll have the budget to continue." What? This was supposed to be one of the cream of the crop public schools and we live in an affluent area. I'm really shocked. And also was a bit surprised that the private school is much more diverse than the public schools (30% minorities vs. around 5-10%). I still have several more public schools to tour (we get assigned to one but get to submit a preference), but right now we are leaning towards private if she gets in there. We can swing private school for two, as we're essentially paying that right now with preschool and a nanny. But I'm not so sure we'd be able to do that for three...

How do you juggle giving the best education and opportunities to the kids you have, vs. adding to the family but creating adding additional stress and financial worries which may outweigh the potential joy and benefits of another child/sibling? Not sure where I am going with this, just rambling. And a bit sad that one dream may overshadow another...

SnuggleBuggles

01-11-2012, 11:51 PM

There are a lot of reasons why I am stopping at 2. Paying for everything I want with regards to education X 2 is hard enough for us that I don't want to pay it X 3. The boys went/ go to a really expensive preschools. We can afford them but I am so, so glad that I only have one more year left to pay it. I think there is always something great about adding a new member of the family to the mix but I think sometimes the practical decisions need to be made. That's what I have done (and I am 99% sure :)). There is a point where it is just great to look at what you have and make the very best of it. :)

Green_Tea

01-11-2012, 11:56 PM

I think quality education is extremely important, so that's not something I'd be willing to sacrifice. If having another child was really important to me, I'd do whatever I could to move to a place that had excellent public schools and where we could afford to live - which is basically what we did when we moved from Boston to a much less expensive New England suburb. It involved a new job and moving to a town where we knew virtually nobody, as well as leaving behind a beloved home, city and friends.

I know that's much more complicated than I'm making it sound, and I am not suggesting you pick up and move :). But considering what major changes you would or wouldn't be willing to make might help you sort out your true feelings about having #3.

crl

01-12-2012, 12:02 AM

Money definitely played into our decision to stop at two. We paid for two (well, more cause some of our attempts failed) adoptions. A third would be thousands more. And more in education costs and on and on. At some point we want to retire.

If we had felt strongly that we wanted a third, I am sure we would have made it work. But since we were wavering anyway, money was just one more factor that supported stopping at two.

Sometimes I think longingly of a third. But those moments are brief. And completely overshadowed by the times I am glad we are done at two.

Catherine

♥ms.pacman♥

01-12-2012, 12:04 AM

no answers here, other than i already find myself thinking about/struggling with the same thing. I think we could handle 3 kids if I worked FT and thus could hire a lot of extra help, plus I wouldn't have to be with the kids 24/7 (i know that sounds bad, but i think as a SAHM, 2 LOs is my limit!). Our house is big enough and we already have a van, so it's not a big deal there..the main concern for us is the insane expense of education. And i'm not even talking private school here (our kids will go to public schools until they graduate HS, as we are in a really good school district) but just college tuition plus associated expenses (all their sports & activities, gear for all their activities, etc). It really adds up. And to me, it's not just money but time...i don't know how one physically divides up time with things like recitals, track meets, soccer games etc with 3 kids! I know people with 3 or more kids so i know it must be done, but not sure if I have the capability.

eta: we actually did something like GreenTea, when we decided to have kids we picked up and moved to an area where we knew almost no one, but had excellent public schools and the COL was insanely cheaper. It wasn't close to family at all, but at least I knew that money would never have to be as much of a concern, and we could afford a larger home, save more money for college, etc.

Mopey

01-12-2012, 12:05 AM

As someone who grew up in another place like SF bay (nyc, upper east side, still here) and as someone who got to experience both public school (elementary - a real gifted program) and private (7 through 12) I can tell you to this day I appreciate my education (not to mention my lifelong friends) more than you can imagine! (Especially the six months of 10th grade spent on grammar ;)). Private school was SO much more than public, even at a fantastic public school years ago.

I know that we will not raise our kids here and I never have wanted to. As natives both my hubby and I have always wanted to live in the country for our kids. But I will still be putting their education first and doing whatever I can to help them forward in life. That is what my parents valued.

I do think it is important to consider your budget and what you want for your children's lives. I know people who can barely afford the children they have and still want to have a few more. I know it is everyone's own choice but I do feel badly when I realize they cannot afford to give any extra experiences to their children. I myself am only cooking our first, but I have always wanted two - so they will at least have each other to lean on. I have always been so grateful for my sister so that is my logic. And because I grew up always worried about money I have planned to afford two.

Anyway, just my .02. I hope you figure things out. Much luck to you! :)

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 12:13 AM

Beth, I agree about looking at what we do have. We are so lucky to have the two great kids we have. Sometimes I worry that it would be pressing our luck and inviting disaster to add another to the mix.

GreenTea, we already do live in an area with excellent public schools. We moved here in part because of that public school reputation. It's just that it doesn't seem to be as great as I thought it would be and this private school seems to be head and shoulders above the rest. So it's a question of good enough vs. excellent and is it worth the extra money. Right now I'm thinking it might be...Also, we can't move from our house and our jobs, so not a practical option for us.

Crl...thanks for your input. I always felt like it was too crass for me to let financial considerations determine our family size, but maybe it is OK to do that if it means giving the best life to the kids we do have.

Ms Pacman, yes...college is so insanely expensive! I am overwhelmed just thinking about paying for two. And yes, the juggling of activities...how do moms of 2+ do it?

Mopey...thanks for the perspective. DH and I both did public school through HS so we have no method of comparison. But I did feel that being smart and education in general was not valued as highly esp. by the other kids in public school. I felt very ostracized by other kids esp. in HS for being brainy and I'm hoping to find a more learning supportive atmosphere for DD. They have chess club and Mathletes as a big part of this school which is heartening.

Kindra178

01-12-2012, 12:19 AM

I totally understand your dilemma. For whatever reason, three kids is somehow way more expensive than two (of course, I don't know what it's like to have two). A session of gymnastics is $330 and not $220, music class is well over $500/session versus something in the high threes . . . it all adds up.

I think you need to decide if you are done - like imagine 10-20-30 years ahead and see if you see yourself with 2 kids or 3. I know my aunt and uncle (a teacher and fed govt employee) wished they had a third and totally regret, in their 70s, not having a third. But they paid for their kids to attend private college and law school. That probably wouldn't have happened if they had had 3 kids.

I will also add that working full time when you have three is really hard! Indeed, I find working part time hard.

niccig

01-12-2012, 12:23 AM

We had pretty much decided on no more kids before we sent DS to private school. Keeping him there and affording college means me back working, but I already wanted to do that. So staying private was a decision we could make. Two kids, would stretch things. We have friends, who call the tuition their form of birth control as they couldn't manage it for another child.

I would also consider that the tuition goes up every year - can you keep affording x2 for all of school years?

Have you factored in after care and summer care costs? You'll have these at both schools, is there a difference for aftercare? Summer camp is expensive.

What are you willing to sacrifice for the tuition? I know from previous conversations that both our DH's have similar tastes with hobbies and travel. Keeping DS at his school is one thing that DH will give up other things for. We know many families that drive 10+ year old cars, no big vacations etc to be able to afford the school. I will probably never have the kitchen of my dreams.

I do think it's good to see if you can afford for time you want. Of course, people's work changes etc, but at least at DS's school, the curriculum is different enough in the early years that swapping to a public school would be very difficult for him. The teaching methods are also different. People we've known that have left the school have all reported a very difficult transition, so we agreed we would do everything we could to keep DS there until at least grade 3, and only move after that if we really had to.

We had already decided that DS would be in private for middle school and up as we're not at all impressed by our local upper schools, we had to rethink everything about lifestyle, budget to accomodate private school for K-6. We think it's worth it. We really love the school and the community. Money is more tight at the moment because we're also paying my college tuition, but when I'm finished, we can recoup that quickly, but my entire salary will pretty much go to retirement, school tuition and college for DS.

ETA -look into any annual giving for the private school. We're expected to contribute to the annual fund, but thankfully our school is after 100% participation and not a set amount. The more people participate, the better it is for grant applications etc. Some schools however, do a lot of fundraising. Find out about SES of the families at the school. DS's school is middle between the parochial school and really expensive schools, so while we do have some families with a lot of money, most drive regular cars etc.

ETA. I think you also need to think about what you want to give your kids in terms of college education. I have some friends that say they are not paying for college. Their children will need to get scholarships or loans. DH's uncle says he'll pay for 2/3 and his kids had to pay 1/3 each. Some people pay 100%. I don't think any is right or wrong, but it is something to consider.

kijip

01-12-2012, 12:26 AM

Are you fully funding retirement and college funds? Do you have any unpaid debts? I would pay private school only if I could afford to do so on top of a full retirement fund and and college savings. Many great people went to ok but not great public schools and did just fine in college- you and your DH did and IIRC you are both doctors? I also recall you posting that you were having some money/budget concerns and I would really seriously evaluate your overall financial picture with a CFA before I committed to private school if I were in your shoes. Just because you can pay it does not mean all the time that you can afford it. It soulds like a great possibility but I would do a financial check in and tune up first.

sste

01-12-2012, 12:30 AM

As you know, you can have a good life with two kids and a good life with three kids. They are just different good lives.

Children are one of the few things I am not financially analytical about - - though that is a luxury enabled by the fact that we are very fortunate and don't have major debt/upside down house situation/unstable jobs. My view is that the finances are shortish-term (what is 22 years?) and another child is going to be for the rest of your life. But I think that only holds if the level of economizing is bearable for you and I am not sure it is for you and your DH based on your goals for your family.

I do think from your other posts it is not only this private school. You have a certain vision for what you want to provide for your children and you are not going to be at peace providing them with something you feel like is significantly inferior to that. That is just you.

I would run the numbers. I am not sure where you are age-wise but perhaps your DD could try the public school on the theory that you might be pleasantly surprised, you could wait a year to see how that goes and if it looks like public is going OK then you could try for #3.

mom3boys

01-12-2012, 12:36 AM

Hello,

This is going to sound horrible. I have 3, but if I had to do over again, I would have stopped at 2, basically for the reasons you mention.

There is free preschool in my district for all children in the district (regardless of family's income). So my DS1 (full day K) and DS2 (full day, PreK3) are now in school every day, at no cost to me except my property taxes. So this year, If I just had DS1 and DS2, we would have paid less than 1/2 what we have previously been paying for childcare, since I would only need someone from 2:00-6:00 pm every day. I am in my final year of graduate school (PhD program) and make a ridiculously low stipend and we live in a high COL area. So it would have been a lifesaver to finally have paid less in childcare. However, we have DS3 now, and of course he requires full time care. We pay our nanny significantly more than I make in one year. We are very stretched financially and that is with my kids going to crappy public schools. DH keeps saying it will get better once I graduate, but the truth is if I stay in the academic world our financial situation will not really improve at all. So, I am looking at going back to working in the corporate world (which I got sick of and left to get my PhD) just so we have the ability to pay for childcare and move to a better house in a better area with better schools. And I don't even want to think about college with 3. I am hoping for scholarships already!

On the plus side, DS3 is one of the best-natured, most gorgeous babies I have ever seen and our whole family is completely in love with him.

ETA: I do realize my situation is different and more temporary as we are not (under any circumstances) considering private school, thus our plan to move. DH and I both went to public school, virtually all of my college friends (an elite college) went to public school, and have since all gone to grad school etc. I do believe in public grade school to save money for the option of private (if your DC wants it and you can afford it) college, but it sounds like the school you toured, or at least the principal, was terrible! Maybe another public school would work better? I went to OK public school and I was on the math team :)

bisous

01-12-2012, 12:57 AM

I guess I'll be the first to say that I would never let a decision about a school influence the number of kids I would have. Schooling is only for 13 years (+4 if you include college) but siblings are for life. Parenting is for life. Family love is forever (according to my world view) and that colors my perception. My sister is my very best friend. My 3 kids are so precious together. I think they'd pick each other over private school any day. Obviously others have had different experiences and those are valid too.

I think the public school you toured sounds awful, though, if for no other reason than the principal seems totally apathetic and unwilling to get beyond his budget woes. I can assure you that in CA you can still find schools that some how figure out how to provide a good education! Any possibility of another (better) public school?

I think that family size is a highly personal matter so you'll have to decide what is best for your family but for me, I'll always pick kids over stuff!

Best of luck. I hope you can have BOTH your dreams. :)

niccig

01-12-2012, 01:08 AM

Are you fully funding retirement and college funds?

Katie has a great point. We're not funding DS's college at the moments, as paying my tuition. It will be made up though when I'm working.

Another point a friend brought up to me while discussing financial issues, is that many of our generation have parents, who have not planned well for retirement, or have lost a lot of retirement funds and may not be able to make it back up. We may need to help them, and at the same time have our own retirements and DC's college.

I will admit, I never considered how my parents are faring when I thought about our financial future. Both sets of our parents seem to be fine, but who knows.

KpbS

01-12-2012, 01:15 AM

Children are one of the few things I am not financially analytical about - - though that is a luxury enabled by the fact that we are very fortunate and don't have major debt/upside down house situation/unstable jobs. My view is that the finances are shortish-term (what is 22 years?) and another child is going to be for the rest of your life. But I think that only holds if the level of economizing is bearable for you and I am not sure it is for you and your DH based on your goals for your family.

I guess I'll be the first to say that I would never let a decision about a school influence the number of kids I would have. Schooling is only for 13 years (+4 if you include college) but siblings are for life. Parenting is for life. Family love is forever (according to my world view) and that colors my perception. My sister is my very best friend. My 3 kids are so precious together. I think they'd pick each other over private school any day. Obviously others have had different experiences and those are valid too.

They summed it up better than I could. ITA with the above. It's a tough decision for sure. :hug:

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 02:09 AM

Thanks everyone for the questions and concerns. When I posted about financial pressures about this time last year, I was in the transition period from moving from employee to partner at my practice and there was this temporary phase where they were keeping half my receipts (because they were earned while I was a salaried employee), yet I was paying full overhead as a partner. And since there is a lag time between when you do the work and charge the insurance companies and when you actually get paid (sometimes a month or few months), it was a couple months where I didn't get paid a salary while that caught up. Fortunately I was able to trim some expenses and increased my work schedule and now we're doing great. I was worried that posting about that here would come back to bite me later (don't want to get judged when I post about spending money), but I really appreciated the support and advice that you guys gave me back then, so it was worth it to me to be honest.

We met with our CPA last month (who also runs the books at my practice) and she was really happy with where we're at now financially and my receipts from last year. I was able to make up my lost salary at the end of the year, and have enough to pay all the estimated taxes (for both of us), and fully fund my 401K plus a pension that I can self-fund (which is more than you can put into the 401K). I wasn't allowed to contribute to these as an employee so I am now saving quite a bit more for retirement this year. DH and I also have 403b, DCP, Roths etc from when we were in residency/fellowship. DH has his 401K plus a company-provided pension and self-funded pension that he contributes money to as well. And we restarted contributions to the kids' college 529s and made up for the amount we missed when we had to stop paying earlier this year. Also, this year I won't be paying the buy-in that I was paying monthly last year anymore so that will be additional money. And DH gets an annual raise and bonuses.

So all that to say yes, I think we're finally OK now. We are essentially caught up now and way ahead of where I thought we would be. It was quite a rough adjustment and stressful because I had never been in that kind of situation before (being a "business owner" rather than an employee) but now that things are running smoothly I am much more relaxed. But our house is still underwater, things are still insanely expensive around here and we do plan to pay for most or all of college and grad school for the kids (as our parents did for us), so we're not rolling in dough either. Our cars are pretty old (although we may be able to get a minivan soon...). We don't have any debts other than the mortgage. Our main splurge is travel--I could live with cutting down on that although it would be tougher for DH. And nice clothes for me and the kids--I definitely could cut down on that.

Education, though, I don't think I'm willing to compromise. If the public school seems like it would be great, then I'm fine with it (DH and I both went to public schools with gifted programs, AP/IB etc.) and that had been our original plan. But if there's that much of a difference in the quality and there's not even any gifted program at the public, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that, even if it's "just" elementary.

We are already sending DD to a private school for her preschool, so we're very familiar with the tuition increases and ubiquitous fundraising campaigns and summers off and frequent teacher inservice days. I think that happens everywhere though. Even at the public school we toured, the PTA mom was saying, "The ask for each family is $1200 this year". (I didn't realize "ask" was a noun, LOL.) The fact is, having a full time nanny is way more expensive than private school, so two in private school would actually be cheaper than what we're paying now. But private school plus preschool PLUS nanny for #3 would be a whole lot more. And three college and grad school educations versus two...that's a huge amount. If we already had the three, we would just try to make it work, send them to public schools, etc. etc. But having a basically comfortable lifestyle now (not stress-free, but doable), do we really want to upset the whole apple cart and start all over again?

I also worry that adding another would be so disruptive. The two kids already share a room (we have a playroom that we can convert to a bedroom when they get older). Do we want to shoehorn one more into our house when there's no chance of moving for a long time? DH and I have had rough patches before but are in a better spot now, do we want to create more stress all over again? I grew up in a big family (5 kids) and am very close to my sisters (more so than my brothers) so I always wanted a sister for DD. But she and DS do get along really well so hopefully they can have that great relationship too.

I totally get what you guys are saying about not letting finances play any role in the decision (which is how I've always felt before), but now that I'm faced with this school decision I'm starting to think it's not so black and white. It's really hard to get into the private school unless you start in K (otherwise only spots are due to families moving etc), so it's now or never on the private. I suppose we could always go from private to public if we weren't happy with the private school or for financial reasons, but we'd have a hard time doing the opposite.

We do have another public school tour tomorrow so hopefully that will go better (although the one we saw today is the closest to where we live so we'd have the highest chance of being assigned to that one).

Thanks for letting me vent/ramble and for your support...it's very therapeutic...

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 02:25 AM

Hello,

This is going to sound horrible. I have 3, but if I had to do over again, I would have stopped at 2, basically for the reasons you mention.

Mom3boys, I don't think this sounds horrible at all. It's actually very brave of you to say that. I know you love your third kid just as much as the first two. I would love mine too, if I had a third. But since my #3 is just hypothetical at this point, I have to consider all aspects and think about what would be the best decision for my family. I'm not sure yet what that is, but I really appreciate your honesty! :hug:

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 02:49 AM

Find out about SES of the families at the school. DS's school is middle between the parochial school and really expensive schools, so while we do have some families with a lot of money, most drive regular cars etc.

Feels like the SES of families at all of the schools around here is similarly high, public or private...it's the land of the Range Rover. As well off as we are, we're still the poor folks driving the 10-year old Forrester, haha ;)

Nicci, your financial and DH situation sounds a lot like ours. Thanks for sharing how you came to your decisions. It helps me to hear that I am not the only one struggling with these issues. Hope things continue to improve for you guys once you finish your schooling.

niccig

01-12-2012, 03:08 AM

Nicci, your financial and DH situation sounds a lot like ours. Thanks for sharing how you came to your decisions. It helps me to hear that I am not the only one struggling with these issues. Hope things continue to improve for you guys once you finish your schooling.

The school decision was a difficult one to make. Like you I had gone to public schools, and we really thought that was what we would do with DS. We moved to this house for the local school and then we decided it wasn't what we wanted for his education. Honestly, I wished we would have figured that out earlier, as we would have made different decisions with the house, and that is what has us stuck. We were told the local school was good, but things changed between buying house and touring the school and we also figured out what we wanted for him school-wise.

Unlike you, we were pretty sure we weren't having anymore kids, so that wasn't a factor in our decision. It does change things financially, and we had to really ask if it was worth it. DS would be fine in our local school. The main issue for us was, good enough wasn't good enough for us when it came to his education. What the local school could offer, wasn't what we wanted (strongly disagree with teaching to the test of NCLB, little recess, no time for music, PE, art etc) It felt selfish to me to put him in the local school and have the extra money for stuff - realistically speaking, a big chunk would be spent. I would do anything to renovate my kitchen, it's tiny (can't open fridge and dishwasher at same time), but not about to do that over DS's education.

We did factor in me working again, and I've thrown spanner in works with return to school. The new career will pay more than what I did previously and has longer-term potential, so I've promised myself I'll pay back the family finances as quickly as I can, and then keep building them up. And one day, we'll do the kitchen, on a smaller scale, but it'll be good enough and I'm OK with that for a kitchen.

But having another child is such a big decision with many things to consider, finances is just one part. I think you and DH have a lot of talking to do and see what your vision is for your family.

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 03:27 AM

The school decision was a difficult one to make. Like you I had gone to public schools, and we really thought that was what we would do with DS. We moved to this house for the local school and then we decided it wasn't what we wanted for his education. Honestly, I wished we would have figured that out earlier, as we would have made different decisions with the house, and that is what has us stuck. We were told the local school was good, but things changed between buying house and touring the school and we also figured out what we wanted for him school-wise.

YES! We did the same thing...bought a house here for the great public schools. If we hadn't bought it and the market hadn't tanked, we wouldn't be stuck here either. And now we might not even put her in the public school after all. Funny how life works, isn't it. Hindsight is 20/20.

Sounds like you have a good plan in place and that you'll be much happier long-term in your new career. And hope you get your dream kitchen one of these days!

niccig

01-12-2012, 03:36 AM

Sounds like you have a good plan in place and that you'll be much happier long-term in your new career. And hope you get your dream kitchen one of these days!

We were saving to do something, and then I went back to school. When we discussed that DH said "you know this means no kitchen for even longer?" It's not the end of the world. I can still make a great dinner in it. One day we'll do the work we want on the house, but that's not our top priority. And a good friend of ours told us to keep whatever we do reasonable, as once invested in house, difficult to get back out nowadays.

magnoliaparadise

01-12-2012, 06:59 AM

I usually don't read the lounge posts much (I stick to the bargains alerts!) but this thread resonates with me. I may uproot our family as well to be closer to extended family, but also to a less expensive place (which is still extremely expensive, but compared to NYC where I am now, everything seems like a veritable deal). And I WAS looking to move to the towns with good public schools, but now that I've read these posts (you who have bought into good towns and are going to send your kids to private school anyway), I'm not as sure.

A few thoughts...
-- I'm not so certain that all private schools are as great as everyone thinks they are. There are some downsides. First, individually, even the prestigious ones, might not be as great as they sound - each one should be checked out (goldenpig, it sounds like you have). Second, my sister went to private school (while I ended up going to public) and one thing that was super difficult for her is that her school was about 30 - 40 minutes away from our house in the 'burbs and as a result, she didn't hang out with friends after school and missed out on a lot and felt marginalized socially. (Maybe social media and the fact that kids have cells and can keep in touch that way makes things a bit different now, I don't know). I also think she questioned how good that school was - she thought it wasn't impressive or better than my public school (that being said, she ended up going to a well regarded private boarding school from there and says that that education was the best among all her education - and she did a ton of it, including a prestigious law school and masters program).
-- In terms of cost, I think private school tuition varies considerably, so maybe you could find one that is less expensive (comparably) or that you could get a scholarship at? Not sure. That being said, here in NYC, the elementary to HS private schools are all super expensive, like, I think 35K - 50K a year (not positive). I just mention this because I was looking at one in Boston which was only 15K a year and I was surprised.

I DO very much agree with posters who have said that private school communities (or the students) are more supportive to learning. I went to a very well regarded public school in an upper class suburb and I will say that even in THAT environment, I felt ostracized being 'geeky' or liking school and being in the better classes - we had a group of 'cool' kids and the general environment was to be 'cool' rather than studious. My hope would be that in a private school, the culture would be to be cool by BEING studious.

I also like the network and community aspect of private school. Yes, they hit you up for money a lot (my DD1 is in a private preschool and I feel like there are a lot of opportunities to give), but there is also a really lovely 'built in family' feel that I see that some private schools have (especially ones from K to HS). My nephews went to private school and it just seems like such a wonderful family network, like their classmates (small class) will be in touch and considered a community for the rest of their lives. I did NOT have that at public school.

GoldenPig, I agree with others. it sounds like that public school public school teacher is awful.

The one things I'd say in reading your posts is... the way you are talking about this issue, I think you are coming from a place of really not wanting three already - maybe you are closer to a decision than you think. I could be wrong, but the way you talk about it all goes towards your reasons not to have a third. There is no judgement either way in it, of course, but it's always good for me to see where my feet are standing when I am talking about a decision. Maybe in your heart, you already know what you want.

Can I ask... are you in CA? I only ask because I thought NYC was the ONLY crazzzzzzy city with a whacky 'preference' program for public school and with such heavily emphasized 'gifted and talented' programs - and was surprised when other posters referred to California.

Mama to DD1 (2008 - almost 4) and DD2 (2011 - 3 months)

hillview

01-12-2012, 08:36 AM

Another point a friend brought up to me while discussing financial issues, is that many of our generation have parents, who have not planned well for retirement, or have lost a lot of retirement funds and may not be able to make it back up. We may need to help them, and at the same time have our own retirements and DC's college.

I will admit, I never considered how my parents are faring when I thought about our financial future. Both sets of our parents seem to be fine, but who knows.
:yeahthat:

crl

01-12-2012, 09:41 AM

Just an aside on schools. Public schools is CA are not very good overall. IMO, the best grade schools in San Francisco are about on par with the worst public schools where we lived previously--Arlington, VA. I am the product of public schools K through JD and always thought I would send my kids to public schools (diversity, including economic diversity, being a major reason ). Now I am not so sure, especially once we get past the grade school age. And especially because ds has special needs and I don't know that he can make it in a giant public middle school.

I think it is wise to at least consider the financial implications of additional children, including the impact on how you are able to provide for the ones you already have.

I try to look at the big picture about the kind of life I want to have. The exact number of children in that picture isn't as important to me as being able to spend time with dh (impacts his career choices), being able to send ds to private school if that's what he needs, being able to afford a home in a neighborhood we enjoy, being able to retire at a reasonable age if we want to without burdening our children, etc. To me it isn't really about choosing between children and things, but about choosing what life looks like.

Catherine

hellokitty

01-12-2012, 09:43 AM

We had this dilemma as well, and quite frankly, we do not make as much as most of the posters do here at BBB, so I am sure that if you saw our finances and that we had three kids, we'd get a lot of ppl telling us that we made a dumb decision. It finally came down to the gut feeling of whether or not our family felt complete. After having DS3, I can say that our family is complete. Will my kids go to private school? No. Our public school is decent. The first thought when you said that you were disappointed with the public school tour is that if your public school is anything like ours, all they do is whine about how they don't have enough $. They try to pass a levy whenever they can get away with it (and the teachers at our school are the only ones who do NOT pay into their own pension in our entire state, the taxes foot their pension, so I hate hearing them complain about $, when they are keeping a lot of it for their own use). I too was worried, but my two older boys are in the system and I feel like the school is very good, even though they constantly talk about how there are budget cuts and they also went open enrollment this yr, since they (stupidly) used it as a threat for what would happen if the levy did not pass. However, even with open enrollment, there is a cap on class size.

Public vs. private, I think that unless your district is just super bad (which doesn't sound like yours, it sounds like they are complaining about budget issues, but honestly what schools, private or public AREN'T bitching about this?), I think that parent involvement is the most important factor in school success. You and your DH are both educated and informed parents. I guess that from the sound of it, I think that your children would be successful going private OR public.

I have talked to ppl whose children are older and they made the decision not to have one more, based on finances. Now that their kids are older, they look back and realize that they focused to much on the numbers and regret not taking the chance while they could, to have one more child. For me, another factor to our decision was I have two siblings, but a few yrs ago, one of them was in a very serious car accident, we did not know if he would make it, and if he did, if he would ever be able to function, they gave him a very poor prognosis. Luckily, he is mostly recovered, and leading a pretty normal life again, we are very lucky he is still with us. However, I realized from that experience that if it were my two boys, and something happened to one of them, the other one would be alone (after my DH and I were gone). I know this sounds like a completely morbid way of thinking, but having gone through that kind of situation, I cannot deny that it did not have an effect on my decision to ttc #3.

In the end, you know what is best for your family. However, I just want to caution that sometimes being too focused on the $ part of it gives you tunnel vision. Step back and look at the broader picture. If all decisions were made based on $, most of us wouldn't have any children at all.

crl

01-12-2012, 09:46 AM

Can I ask... are you in CA? I only ask because I thought NYC was the ONLY crazzzzzzy city with a whacky 'preference' program for public school and with such heavily emphasized 'gifted and talented' programs - and was surprised when other posters referred to California.

Mama to DD1 (2008 - almost 4) and DD2 (2011 - 3 months)

Many places in California have some form of school choice. (I believe there is a statutory provision requiring that districts allow students to enroll in any school in the district with an opening.). San Francisco does not have neighborhood schools. They have a complex assignment system with many factors in making the assignment, only one of which is attending the school designated for your neighborhood. It is insane.

Catherine

*myfoursons

01-12-2012, 09:52 AM

If you look at my signature, I'm a proponent of big families. I see the way my children interact with each other, the way they enrich each others lives, and I can't imagine any other way for my family. That is, of course, for my family. Yes, I know the argument that siblings aren't always a blessing when you're older, that people don't stay close to their siblings, so it's not always a positive. Hwever, at this point in their lives, there is nothing more impactful on their development than each other. And yes, I'm including their schooling. When they aren't around each other, they miss each other horribly. The 3 oldest choose to sleep in the same room, leaving another bedroom empty, because they are so close.

We live in an area with excellent suburban public schools (which is why we chose to move here). There are, of course, private schools that rank better. There are other suburban schools that may rank better. But, really, in my view an education is what you make of it. I went to a middling public school. I ended up going to an excellent university (where I entered in the top 10% of my class) and met students from all over the country. I heard stories of amazing private schools, public schools, and homeschooling experienes. I also heard MANY stories of private schools (some boarding) which were amazingly horrible. Nati

Melaine

01-12-2012, 10:11 AM

We probably couldn't have afforded private school for any of our kids, even if we only had one. And paying for college is not going to happen, But I agree with myfoursons, family is more important to me than education. In other words, I don't think it should boil down to "private school or additional child". I think if you decide to have another you can make it work by moving to another area with better public schools, looking for scholarships for a private school or even homeschooling (which is probably what we will do since I am not pleased with the public schools in the area).

Then again, if you are done, you are done. It's fine to only have one child, or two children or any number of children that your family ends up with!

ETA: I should add that I have some negative associations with private schools as well and I do not believe they are the end all, be all of education by any stretch.

g-mama

01-12-2012, 10:15 AM

If you look at my signature, I'm a proponent of big families. I see the way my children interact with each other, the way they enrich each others lives, and I can't imagine any other way for my family. That is, of course, for my family. Yes, I know the argument that siblings aren't always a blessing when you're older, that people don't stay close to their siblings, so it's not always a positive. Hwever, at this point in their lives, there is nothing more impactful on their development than each other. And yes, I'm including their schooling. When they aren't around each other, they miss each other horribly. The 3 oldest choose to sleep in the same room, leaving another bedroom empty, because they are so close.

:yeahthat:

I couldn't agree more. My three sons' relationship with one another is the single most influential factor in their childhood, without a doubt. They, too, sleep all in the same room every weekend night, school break, and all summer. Threatening to take away their 'sleepovers' is a great way to get them to behave. ;) I hear the laughter coming from that room and don't mind if it goes on for an hour because I would have killed to have anything like that when I was a child. This weekend, my oldest ds turned down two phone calls from friends inviting him over b/c he was enjoying playing with his brothers too much. It's not always rainbows and roses, but these boys have something special. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

gatorsmom

01-12-2012, 10:28 AM

Well, you seem to be really focused on the schools. I just wanted to point out that schools can change and quickly. The private one can lose funding or primary donators can move away or lose interest if their children graduate. And the public one could improve. I"m sure you are basing your decision on more than that but I"m getting from your post that those are 2 very big factors. I wouldn't base my family size on that.

I think you need to do some soul searching and ask yourself why, exactly, you cannot let go of those baby clothes and gear.

magnoliaparadise

01-12-2012, 10:52 AM

Many places in California have some form of school choice. (I believe there is a statutory provision requiring that districts allow students to enroll in any school in the district with an opening.). San Francisco does not have neighborhood schools. They have a complex assignment system with many factors in making the assignment, only one of which is attending the school designated for your neighborhood. It is insane.

Catherine

San Francisco sounds very much like NYC. It is really CRAZY school-wise. Not only the getting in, but also the re-getting in: depending upon the school your child goes to, it is very likely that s/he will need to go through the entire application process for middle school and high school.

magnoliaparadise

01-12-2012, 11:02 AM

For me, another factor to our decision was I have two siblings, but a few yrs ago, one of them was in a very serious car accident, we did not know if he would make it, and if he did, if he would ever be able to function, they gave him a very poor prognosis. Luckily, he is mostly recovered, and leading a pretty normal life again, we are very lucky he is still with us. However, I realized from that experience that if it were my two boys, and something happened to one of them, the other one would be alone (after my DH and I were gone). I know this sounds like a completely morbid way of thinking, but having gone through that kind of situation, I cannot deny that it did not have an effect on my decision to ttc #3.

Hellokitty, I am so sorry about what happened to your brother and so happy for you/him that he is leading a normal life again. I TOTALLY get this reasoning. It might or might not be morbid, but it's totally understandable and normal. When my nephew died, three years ago, it completely changed my view of the world and in a way, how to live. It was tragic all around and besides the grief of our loss, his brother was suddenly left as an only child, at 6 years old. He and his older brother had been very close.

My sister surprised us all when she decided to get pregnant again and their new daughter, who brings so much joy, was born two years later. She is now one years old and the 6 year old, now 9, is so happy being a big brother and having a sibling and he is AMAZING with her, doting, loving, really incredible.

My daughter was 1 years old when my nephew died and I had wanted another child anyway, but experiencing my nephew's loss, I was dogged about it (I had a lot of infertility issues so had to do a lot of treatments). I want to know that my daughter has someone else, especially because I'm a single parent. I would love 3, and maybe it's partly shaped by this still, but it's unlikely that I will at this time.

crl

01-12-2012, 11:14 AM

San Francisco sounds very much like NYC. It is really CRAZY school-wise. Not only the getting in, but also the re-getting in: depending upon the school your child goes to, it is very likely that s/he will need to go through the entire application process for middle school and high school.

Yes, we have to run the lottery again for middle and high school here. There was a proposal to track the grade schools into middle school, but it was pushed off. My kids are just far enough apart that ds will start middle the year dd starts K. So if we are still here then, we will be in two lotteries at the same time. And the bad schools here are very bad. An hours drive or more from where we live with no busing provided and some of the grade schools are unsafe, IMO.

Every year people leave the city because they have lost the lottery and can't face putting their kid in the assigned school and can't afford private. Private schools run $20k and up per year. Many of the suburb schools in the area are not great either and commutes can be very difficult due to geography (SF is on a peninsula so commuting often involves bridges as choke points). General cost of living, especially real estate, is very high. (Dh works for a large international law firm based in NY, the most expensive space they lease in the US is the Palo Alto office just to give an idea of costs.) There are no easy answers here.

I think the incremental increase in the expense of having another child is just so much less in other parts of the country. DH had a colleague who left the area because it was impossbile to afford a house for his large family, even on big law salaries.

I think the Bay area is a good deal like New York when it comes to these issues.

Catherine

ha98ed14

01-12-2012, 11:24 AM

And the bad schools here are very bad. An hours drive or more from where we live with no busing provided and some of the grade schools are unsafe, IMO.

HOW can they do this? Forget the quality of the schools for a second, how can the district ASSIGN you to a school that is an hour commute? How is that legal? What do low income parents do?

We live in a district in CA with a neighborhood school assignment but also the option to transfer to any school in the district. Your assigned neighborhood school is within WALKING distance. If you choose to enroll in another school, you have to provide your own transportation. For kids that NEED to go to another school for special needs classes, the District must bus them, and they do.

crl

01-12-2012, 11:42 AM

HOW can they do this? Forget the quality of the schools for a second, how can the district ASSIGN you to a school that is an hour commute? How is that legal? What do low income parents do?
.

All I can say is that this is how it is and the district has been sued many times over its assignment system. I would assume that this was raised in one of those lawsuits, but I don't know. There is public transit here and many middle schoolers and up take city buses to get to school. Don't get me wrong, I find all this appalling. But it is true, nonetheless.

I went to a wide variety of public schools as a child (dad was Army) and I always thought school was what you made of it. That was before I had a special needs child in public school in SF, CA. It has given me a very different perspective on education and the possibility that private school may be extremely important in some situations.

Catherine

Kindra178

01-12-2012, 11:57 AM

Chicago has a similar, crazy public school situation. The gifted schools all have lower than a 5% acceptance rate, and where you live in the city either hurts or helps you. Some neighborhood schools are good, some are worse than awful. Either way you are assigned to your neighborhood school. People take public transportation starting fairly young. Commuting 45 minutes in morning rush (and longer in Chicago weather) is pretty common. There are other schools that have all sorts of lotteries, based on attendance area or spots.

At the time we left to goto a nearby suburb (when I found out was pregnant with twins) twins could be and were commonly at different schools. The thought of having three boys, the oldest being 26 months older, at three different schools, was awful. We probably would have stayed in the city and did private for two kids, but for three, private was overwhelming. In addition, the best privates are hard to get into as well. Catholic schools are reasonable, between 6000-10,000, whereas privates are 14,000-25,000.

Goldenpig, I am sorry you have to make this decision

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 11:58 AM

Yes, we have to run the lottery again for middle and high school here. There was a proposal to track the grade schools into middle school, but it was pushed off. My kids are just far enough apart that ds will start middle the year dd starts K. So if we are still here then, we will be in two lotteries at the same time. And the bad schools here are very bad. An hours drive or more from where we live with no busing provided and some of the grade schools are unsafe, IMO.

Every year people leave the city because they have lost the lottery and can't face putting their kid in the assigned school and can't afford private. Private schools run $20k and up per year. Many of the suburb schools in the area are not great either and commutes can be very difficult due to geography (SF is on a peninsula so commuting often involves bridges as choke points). General cost of living, especially real estate, is very high. (Dh works for a large international law firm based in NY, the most expensive space they lease in the US is the Palo Alto office just to give an idea of costs.) There are no easy answers here.

I think the incremental increase in the expense of having another child is just so much less in other parts of the country. DH had a colleague who left the area because it was impossbile to afford a house for his large family, even on big law salaries.

I think the Bay area is a good deal like New York when it comes to these issues.

Catherine

HOW can they do this? Forget the quality of the schools for a second, how can the district ASSIGN you to a school that is an hour commute? How is that legal? What do low income parents do?

We live in a district in CA with a neighborhood school assignment but also the option to transfer to any school in the district. Your assigned neighborhood school is within WALKING distance. If you choose to enroll in another school, you have to provide your own transportation. For kids that NEED to go to another school for special needs classes, the District must bus them, and they do.

Oh crl, I am sorry you have to deal with the SF school craziness! We moved out of the city before we had kids, in part to avoid that whole nightmare. Ha98ed14, believe it. The SF public lottery is that ridiculous. Sometimes parents are forced to bus their kids across the city to the bad part of town. No wonder they pick private or move out of the city.

Where we live there are five schools in our city. You can be assigned to any one of the five. You can list your top two choices, but who gets in depends on siblings already there and your proximity to the school (they take the closest families first). We live just far enough away that we are between two schools, but I've heard if those two fill up with siblings and people who live within walking distance (as they often do) we get assigned to the school all the way across town. All of them, luckily, are supposed to be good schools, unlike SF. And I get that whining about $ is part of the public landscape. But no gifted program, really? And she acted like she didn't even care about it, like she didn't think it was something worth having or trying to be creative about doing. I don't know if I should judge the school solely based on the principal and a brief tour. But I have a friend whose older kid went there (is now in HS) and she was unhappy with it for a number of reasons. And DH knows several families whose kids go to this private school and they all rave about it. I know and worry about private schools not being all they're cracked up to be. The private school that DD attends now goes to 8th and we are happy with their preschool experience but for a number of reasons think that the school might not be a good fit for her in the upper years and that it isn't worth the $$$ to send her there. Also telling, one of the families from our current private pulled all three of her kids and moved them to this new private school. And at the school tour I met another mom from our current private who is also trying to switch to this school. From all I've heard from other families and read and seen from visiting the school multiple times, I think this other private would be a great place for her. This may sound super uptight to you guys, but we went to see a school placement consultant once when we were trying to pick a preschool for DD (confused and worried first time parents) and after meeting DD she said, you should send her to this private school for K--this would be the perfect place for her to flourish. At that point I had never heard of the school before. And she knows all the schools in the Bay Area. So that's a pretty powerful endorsement. And all of the research I've done and my gut feel on visiting multiple times seems to concur with that. It feels like the right place for her. So, at some point I have to just trust that.

HK, I'm sorry about your brother--I know you've told your story before. That is actually one of the top reasons why DH is considering a third, what if something happens to one of them. He grew up as an only and so he always missed not having a sibling. And he doesn't want one of them to be alone if something happens to the other.

I don't know if picking private is for sure going to close the door on a third, but it sure does make it a lot more challenging. We are not going to move, we both like our jobs and where we live. So if we do have a third, I guess we will have to re-evaluate, see what we can do (both of us have a little room to increase our work hours further to bring in more income if we have to), and just live with the increased stress and craziness and cost if we decide having another is worth it. And maybe we might have to pull her to public school (our income is too high to qualify for financial aid). I think our family is pretty great as is, don't know if one more would be even better, or bring additional challenges that we may not be up for. Still contemplating.

Thanks for all the input!

secchick

01-12-2012, 01:00 PM

We considered all of this as well and moved to the area in our city with the top elementary schools and high school in the district. The middle school, however, is a cesspool. People move here for the very competitive high school and I would be fine with it and with the elementary, but no way on the middle school.

We chose parochial school that is excellent and is very difficult to get into. For example every single pre-K spot for next year is already filled with siblings and we got on the wait list when our daughter was 9 months old (people a couple months behind us didn't even get an interview). It is around $8,500/year and summer camp is about $1k/month, and for us that is a big part of why we are stopping at 3 when we would both otherwisw consider having 4. Combined with our NAEYC accredited daycare for 2, we pay way more than we do on our mortgage for education and childcare, but are able to max out our retirement and save $5k/year for each for college. We considered other private schools that would also have been great, but the issue was one of additional cost/convenience/after school care/ multiple pickups. Ours is diverse in that there is generous (not required) donation making it possible for no one to be denied admittance for inability to pay and need based scholarships are generous. It is not diverse, obviously, in that you have to be a member of the church to attend, and that being the case, there is a relatively good racial mix of white/hispanic/asian, but fewer black students, primarily due to the fact that there are not a ton of black Catholics in the South.

The best aspect are for us, instruction that includes a Christian perspective, and the fact that everyone there cares a lot about and is involved in the education of their children. I have not found anyone who is not polite, or does not make it a high priority to ensure that their children know right from wrong and behave appropriately. For those reasons, the main focus can be on educating the children, and they do not waste classroom time on things like feeding every single child breakfast, as they do in the public schools.

Globetrotter

01-12-2012, 01:28 PM

GreenTea, we already do live in an area with excellent public schools. We moved here in part because of that public school reputation.

We, too, moved here to send our kids to one of the desirable schools. What I have found, however, is that they are desirable due to high API scores, which are in part due to the highly educated families who live here and the fact that they push their kids to do after school tutoring! Now with budget cuts, these schools are not what they used to be - morale is low, programs have been slashed, and so on. I have not been too impressed with hiring decisions, which are based solely on seniority. Are there any good charter schools in your area?

As for your question, I think it's tough to have more than two kids in the Bay Area unless you are willing to compromise. Things add up fast. College tuition alone is probably going to be at least $200K/child, probably more like $300K if you're looking at private.

smilequeen

01-12-2012, 01:42 PM

Well, I totally get where you are coming from. I think early education is particularly important and if it came down to having a 3rd or compromising on what I thought was the best education for my kids, I would have stopped at 2 as well. We have been exceptionally lucky that it isn't a factor, but I definitely would have felt the same way. As it is, from a long term standpoint I'd love to have a 4th. I love the idea of a big family, lots of grandkids, etc. but from a realistic standpoint, I'm stretched thin enough with 3. I don't think I can juggle 4, so I'm grudgingly stopping.

chlobo

01-12-2012, 01:48 PM

You guys are making me glad I live where I do. I am in a small town. We have one school for k-8. There is bussing and we chose this town because it has one of the best school systems in the state. Is it perfect? No. Does it have problems? Yes. But for us, the public school is working well so far. Of course we pay through the nose in taxes, which are going to go up again due to building a new High School.

crl

01-12-2012, 01:53 PM

AnnieW625

01-12-2012, 02:17 PM

I completely agree with you in regards to family size and being able to afford private (subsidized Catholic for us) school. We can afford Catholic k-12 for two kids. Three kids would be a stretching it for a couple of years esp. in regards to daycare, and much later high school and college; elementary school would be the easy part. If we had a 3rd child it would make more sense for me to be a sahm for a couple of years just because of daycare cost, but DH isn't planning on being able to switch jobs in the next year which would give him a pay raise equal to my $60k salary so that is not an option for us. Plus quitting my job isn't really an option because of the benefits (I get lifetime medical care if I have 20 yrs. of stste service when I retire, and I have 11 yrs. now) unless we can sell our house, move out of state, and DH's salary can cover a family larger than four with no problem.

The Catholic school gives a sibling discount, but if I were to have another child now I will have two in high school at the same time, and DD1 will be finishing college when DD2 graduates from high school, and potentially starting grad. school and then DD2 will be in college, and we'd be paying for high school for child 3 at the same time.

I really think that this whole idea of not having kids and paying for private school may not make sense to many posters who live in lcol areas which have good schools, and very little worries about budget funding for schools (ie: Texas, most of the Midwest, and parts of the South like Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee). For the rest of us it makes sense.

I don't fully fund my 401k/457 plan every year because I csn't afford to, but thankfully right now both DH and I have pensions. If DH ever ends up on a private sector job without a pension we will do our best do that his is fully funded. Thankfully if he does leave state service he is vested for his pension so he would get that money when he retires too.

ha98ed14

01-12-2012, 02:20 PM

GoldenPig, Wow. I am sorry that you are stuck. Given the situation you describe, I would stop at 2 unless you have plans to move to a fantastic suburb with amazing schools.

I did a poll here once asking people which they thought was more important: having siblings or a college education paid for by parents. The overwhelming majority voted for siblings. I stand alone in thinking it's education. We have one for a lot of the same reasons you are thinking of stopping at two. We also have a lot less income than most people on this board.

chlobo

01-12-2012, 02:25 PM

The sad thing is that we pay very high taxes. If we moved back to VA the tax hit would be much lower and the schools would be much better. CA is a mess.

Catherine

That really is sad and screwed up.

AnnieW625

01-12-2012, 02:36 PM

That really is sad and screwed up.

Yes it is, and honestly as much as most people don't want to hear it here in California I blame Prop. 13 (http://www.californiataxdata.com/pdf/Prop13.pdf), which changed the property tax structure in 1978. IMHO Prop. 13 made housing more affordable at first, and then later made housing very unaffordable because the prices went up so much because the property tax on the home was still only 1% on a million dollar home and the same 1% on a 100,000 home. May not make sense to me, but when property taxes are suppose to fund public schools it took away a lot of income from those middle class schools.

crayonblue

01-12-2012, 02:38 PM

That really is sad and screwed up.

Yes, indeed. LOVE California but the school system is a MESS. Thankfully, DD has a fantastic teacher this year in public school. We'll have to go year by year.

ha98ed14

01-12-2012, 02:44 PM

I really think that this whole idea of not having kids and paying for private school may not make sense to many posters who live in lcol areas which have good schools, and very little worries about budget funding for schools (ie: Texas, most of the Midwest, and parts of the South like Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee). For the rest of us it makes sense.

:yeahthat: x 1000...

I don't fully fund my 401k/457 plan every year because I csn't afford to, but thankfully right now both DH and I have pensions. If DH ever ends up on a private sector job without a pension we will do our best do that his is fully funded. Thankfully if he does leave state service he is vested for his pension so he would get that money when he retires too.

I just have to point out that your quality of life now and future financial security in retirement (and mine too as DH is a public school teacher) is provided for by taxpayer money. IME, both wealthy and poor people resent public employee benefits. If they are poor, it's because they don't have the same themselves, and if they are wealthy, they think public employees make too much money for what they do, don't have stay competitive like people in the private sector, and are maybe just lazy in general. This counts for a lot of the backlash against public school teachers and the push for higher pay for better performing students. The unions are accused if protecting the cr@ppy teachers, etc.

I'm not trying to single you out; I just think public employees (my family included) are not accepted as true peers by people of comparable income who work in the private sector. In my opinion, all of this is just another incarnation of the Class Wars.

snowbunnies300

01-12-2012, 02:51 PM

lutefisk

01-12-2012, 02:58 PM

goldenpig, maybe it would be helpful to tour the rest of the public schools that your kids might end up at (since you said kids occasionally end up being assigned to a school across town). Then you can have a fuller picture of what the public schools are like.

In full disclosure, we have 2 kids, which is all DH and I can handle, and we do not make enough to afford private school for even 1 kid.

ha98ed14

01-12-2012, 03:00 PM

I live in the upper mid-west (frozen tundra) and the schools are finacially in trouble. Look at the uproar in WI when the Gov took away bargaining power from the teachers. My school has a levy over-ride that just gets bigger and bigger each time it is up. We had a school that was shut down for mold problems and we couldn't get the public to vote to build a new school. Every two years it seems like we are voting for something that the school needs but can't afford. Class sizes keep going up.

Add on top that I live in a rural area. We have 1 elementary, 1 middle school and 1 high school. You don't like it go somewhere else. Oh and the next town over is around 15 to 20 miles. No busing. There is one catholic school for K-5 and that is it for private options. Again if you want to drive you can have other options but I am unaware of any of the near by towns having a private high school options.

It really is like we are all living in different countries. I'm in SoCal, and our district has all the issues facing all CA schools, but it's Nuh-Thing like the San Fran mess. Many of our schools have foundations started by parents to benefit that individual school. There are little-to-no independent day school options, and the Catholic schools in my town are Parish Schools and you need to be a Roman Catholic at the very least and preferably a member of the Parish.

I grew up in Connecticut, where you couldn't spit and not hit at least 4 independent boarding or day schools. (I went to two of them; one for elementary/middle and one for high school.) Living where I do now, I would have to drive all the way to Pasadena, which is 45 minutes, to find anything close to what I grew up with. It's just a different culture all together.

Kindra178

01-12-2012, 03:10 PM

mom3boys

01-12-2012, 03:16 PM

It really is like we are all living in different countries.

I totally agree. My friends in rural New England, where I grew up (as PP had, my town had 1 Elem, One regional middle, one regional high, some kids went to private boarding schools in high school but not before, even the nearest Catholic school was over 1/2 hour away), have no idea what I'm talking about when I go back and forth on various charter, public, private, and even parochial options (we are not religious but I have already considered a Jewish school and a Catholic school)! On my street alone there are kids of similar ages going to at least 6-7 different schools.

This week and next are the charter school lotteries, which I am applying to for the 2nd time--for wait list order only, since DS did not get in for K last year. But if he gets in, we could be set, because his brothers will then be able to go to the same school when they are old enough. It seems ridiculous to pin my kids' education on a completely random lottery assignment.

ETA: I live just outside NYC (urban area, bad public schools that are downright dangerous by HS)

AnnieW625

01-12-2012, 03:43 PM

I just have to point out that your quality of life now and future financial security in retirement (and mine too as DH is a public school teacher) is provided for by taxpayer money. IME, both wealthy and poor people resent public employee benefits. If they are poor, it's because they don't have the same themselves, and if they are wealthy, they think public employees make too much money for what they do, don't have stay competitive like people in the private sector, and are maybe just lazy in general. This counts for a lot of the backlash against public school teachers and the push for higher pay for better performing students. The unions are accused if protecting the cr@ppy teachers, etc.

I'm not trying to single you out; I just think public employees (my family included) are not accepted as true peers by people of comparable income who work in the private sector. In my opinion, all of this is just another incarnation of the Class Wars.

I totally get it. I had no plans to ever be a lifer of state employment, in fact I pounded the pavement looking for work in 1999/2000 when I was getting ready to graduate and after I graduated. I got my full time state job 11 months after I graduated. I didn't have the guts to move to LA or the Midwest and work for $9 an hour as a copywriter or on air talent and then if I was in LA work a second and third job to make ends meet. I tried to avoid state employment but I didn't have an accounting degree, teaching degree, computer or engineering degree when I graduated. I knew nothing about telephone systems which was über popular job market here. I had no interest in being a lawyer and honestly couldn't pass the LSAT. I had no desire to be a teacher.

My salary and therefore the money taken out of my check each month for my benefits is not paid directly with the same tax payer funds that are used to pay most state employees because I work for a self funded agency. My agency gets all of their funding from businesses who need workers comp insurance so we are paid with insurance premium revenues. We are not a drain on the state of California's budget, even though we are state employees. What bothers me the most is the assumption that state employees don't pay into their pension which is 100% not true; every state employee pays into their pension.

niccig

01-12-2012, 03:59 PM

It really is like we are all living in different countries.

I'm 45 mins from you, and our school situation is totally different too. It really is a mess. We have friends that live in a very good school district in Ohio and I can't believe what is standard at their school. It's difficult to compare as our "good" schools aren't as good as their "good" schools, also means our "bad" schools are so much worse. It's like comparing apples and oranges. So when I say the local elementary is a "good" school, they're thinking of their school, but when you get into the details, you realise they're no where near the same.

I agree with Annie, that it's prop 13 that has sorely underfunded schools in CA. So parents do everything they can to get their child into the best school possible.

Momit

01-12-2012, 04:02 PM

I did a poll here once asking people which they thought was more important: having siblings or a college education paid for by parents. The overwhelming majority voted for siblings.

This is really interesting to me. We have always planned for DS to be an only child, because that's what we feel is best for him and for our family. I didn't realize most people on this board would think we were condemning him to a miserable life as an only! FWIW I was also an only and loved it, and DH's sister is a wreck and they barely speak. Maybe that's where our thinking comes from.

twowhat?

01-12-2012, 04:03 PM

goldenpig

01-12-2012, 05:04 PM

I went to another public tour today and I liked this school more. The answers were the same in terms of no gifted program, no foreign language, high class sizes etc. but at least the principal seemed to be more level headed and on the ball. This one is also a little more diverse than the last one. But they are undergoing construction for the next two years or so so there will be a lot of noise, they'll be in portables, etc. And it's far from our house so there's less chance that we would get in.

All the public schools are good here, high test scores (API in the 900's, etc). I just feel like the budgetary concerns seem to take up so much of their time and energy and things keep getting cut even though we live in a rich city and we already pay a ton in property taxes. According to the handbook they gave us, the PTA and another private foundation pay for nearly everything at the public school other than the administrator/teacher salaries and basic textbooks, by fundraising and asking the parents to pay up. The PTA pays for teacher professional development, classroom and school supplies, library books, technology (computers), recess and PE equipment, student programs, garden, etc. The other community foundation pays for classroom and library aides, teachers and supplies for art, music, drama, dance, PE, etc. I think it's pretty sad that so much of this is not paid for already when our taxes are so high...where is the money going?

I don't think our choice of school is going to matter much. On the district website it says "There is a common misperception that parents choose their child's school"...they assign you mostly based on proximity and district needs, class size etc. The parent preference piece is probably like pushing the elevator close button--makes you feel better but doesn't actually do anything.

If I hadn't seen this other private school, I would be perfectly happy sending my kid to the public schools here. I think they're the best of what public has to offer around here. And I think she'd ultimately do OK wherever she is. But when the class sizes are 25-26 in K and nearing 30 in the upper grades, I worry that she'll get lost in the shuffle esp. since she tends to be reserved and quiet. I don't think she'll get the individualized attention that she will get in a smaller class size and in a school with more developed programs like Spanish/Mandarin, daily PE (instead of twice a week), public speaking skill development, etc. etc. It's a question of good vs. amazing and like sste says, I would feel bad about "settling" and giving our kids less than what I thought would be the best for them.

And as for the paying for college & grad school, that is pretty typical of Asian families (not to say only Asians do it), it's what our parents did for us. I did work a few hours a week during college and during summers and take some loans, but not to fund the entire thing. It would have been so hard to pay for my entire college and medical school. Med school isn't something you can do part time while working and if I took out loans for all of it I'd be seriously in debt. So I feel like we owe it to our kids to help out. So yeah, finances do play a role in deciding how many kids is enough. Adding another one would be at least another $500K in college and grad school alone (and probably more), that's not chump change!

AnnieW625

01-12-2012, 05:54 PM

Goldenpig, my parents paid for our college too; as did DH's parents. We didn't go to grad school but it was nice that because we were able to work and save up our money that we actually had savings when we graduated. Our plan is to do the same for our kids, including as much as possible for grad school.

MelissaTC

01-12-2012, 06:03 PM

Another family who is intent on paying as much as we can for child's college. I hope that we save enough and are in a position to cover him 100%.

Momit

01-12-2012, 06:12 PM

I feel very fortunate that DH and I both had parents that paid for our undergrad degrees. Our masters and his PhD were all paid by work. It would never occur to us to do anything other than pay for college for DS.

larig

01-12-2012, 08:51 PM

We will cover 100% of the cost to the flagship state university or the cash equivalent of that amount to go somewhere else for DS.

*myfoursons

01-12-2012, 09:04 PM

I'm sure we will cover the majority of costs for college, but I feel strongly that our children will take out some loans and do their best to research scholarships.

I had loans, scholarships, and worked a part-time job in school (ok, it mainly went to my beer fund). None of my friends worked. None of them had loans. And honestly, some of them didn't take school that seriously. A friend had a full-ride because his parent worked at the university, and it took him 5 years to graduate (something practically unheard of at this school. He frickin flunked gym at one point because he just never showed. I mean, really).

Long-wind way to say that I will not give my kids a full-ride, even though we'll be able to afford it. I think you take more ownership of something when you have a financial stake in it. And we definitely will not pay for post-grad education. I feel if it's something you feel strongly about, you have to find a way to fund it.

rin

01-12-2012, 09:06 PM

Honestly, the cost of college tuition doesn't even enter into my equation for how many children I want to have. (Costs of vacations, private lessons, housing, etc, absolutely. College/private high school? Nope.)

All four of my siblings and I went to private high school, with the help of extensive financial aid. For both high school and college, my parents paid around 10%-25% of the tuition for me and each of my 3 siblings. We always knew we were expected to work, find scholarships, and take out loans. All four of us graduated from private colleges with between $15k and $25k in loans. My MS and PhD were paid for by scholarships.

I do not feel any obligation to pay for private college for any of my DC; yes, I would like to facilitate them going to the schools they want to, but I do not feel like it is my responsibility to pay for that for them. Even private schools usually have financial aid for families who qualify.

One thing I've noticed is that sometimes the fewer kids you have, the more you end up being expected to pay for private schools. My aunt and uncle have two children, make about the same as my parents, and are expected to contribute almost twice as much for their children's college tuition (need-based aid).

ast96

01-12-2012, 09:14 PM

My older two were in private school until last year. We decided to have a third child, and now a fourth, knowing it would make it hard to send them to private school and that it would make college tuitions challenging.

Both of us only have one brother each, and we're not close to either of them. We wanted a bigger family for our children. We definitely weighed the costs of having more children and the practical considerations. I do not blame you at all for doing so. But in the end, we chose the children and family over the private school.

I live in an area very challenged with public school budget cuts. I would love to be able to send my kids to private schools. I will pay for my children to go to college, though I admit I am hoping they win some scholarship help (I believe that is likely) or that we might qualify for some amount of aid, especially since we will have four children.

My husband and I both attended an Ivy League university and we interview local high school seniors for the university, so I interview kids from the elite private schools as well as the public schools. The kids at the public schools are just as well prepared and just as happy as the private school kids, sometimes more. What it came down to is my belief that with us as their parents, my kids will be okay. They are bright, they have educated, involved parents, and they both enjoy the public school, budget-stressed as it is, as much as they did the fancy private school. Maybe more. Their peers are, in fact, more challenging to them academically in public school. They are more motivated in public school. So far, I feel we made a good choice.

You have to know in your heart what you want. If you are inclined to stop at two anyway, then by all means. If not, think about it. I was struggling with the knowledge that we could take two on better vacations, that we could give them anything, etc. But we still go on vacations, the kids still have plenty of everything, and they do benefit so much from having each other. There are pros and cons, costs and benefits, but from where I stand, they are getting so much from having each other in their lives.

I wanted a big table fifteen years from now, full of people at the holidays. I wanted a support system for my kids. I went to several weddings of friends who have two or three siblings, and watching them toast each other and be together made me really want that for my children. Maybe they won't get along, or maybe they won't all be friends -- I can't control everything. But I wanted to give them that opportunity.

We'll make college work. It will happen, however it has to. My third child (and I hope my fourth!) is a very special little person, and I can say with all certainty our family needed him. But your mileage may vary, as always. ;)

tribe pride

01-12-2012, 09:55 PM

You have to know in your heart what you want. If you are inclined to stop at two anyway, then by all means. If not, think about it. I was struggling with the knowledge that we could take two on better vacations, that we could give them anything, etc. But we still go on vacations, the kids still have plenty of everything, and they do benefit so much from having each other. There are pros and cons, costs and benefits, but from where I stand, they are getting so much from having each other in their lives.

I wanted a big table fifteen years from now, full of people at the holidays. I wanted a support system for my kids. I went to several weddings of friends who have two or three siblings, and watching them toast each other and be together made me really want that for my children. Maybe they won't get along, or maybe they won't all be friends -- I can't control everything. But I wanted to give them that opportunity.

We'll make college work. It will happen, however it has to. My third child (and I hope my fourth!) is a very special little person, and I can say with all certainty our family needed him. But your mileage may vary, as always. ;)

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more.

DH and I have been talking about this a bunch recently, as we're discussing having #3. I really, really want more than 2 children. At least 3, but honestly, I think that 5 or 6 would be great (on my good days, at least!). However, the costs associated with having more kids worry me sometimes. As a private school teacher, DH's salary is not particularly high, and I'm currently a SAHM. When I did work, it was non-profit/church work, so if I go back at some point, I won't be bringing home a ton. We really want to be able to send our kids to DH's school- it is a caring community and academically excellent (our public schools here are mediocre in comparison). Not to mention that our children would have the bonus of going to school with Dad, possibly having him as their coach and teacher, and our entire family part of the life of the same school. The school does offer a discount for children of faculty. However, we're still talking a lot of money that it will be a major struggle to come up with. And the thought of adding more children to the mix, and having to come up with tuition for even more of them, is a bit daunting.

I paid for half of my college and grad school tuition, and while it would be great not to have that debt still hanging over me, I don't have a problem with having my kids take out loans or using scholarships or work to help pay for school down the road. And as a PP noted, private schools and colleges (at least the ones with bigger endowments) often offer more financial aid to families with more kids, as they take into account the fact that you have more children to pay for. This is what we're hoping for, anyway.

Sending the kids to private school will involve sacrifice for our family. Probably no vacations, driving our cars into the ground, lots of hand-me-down clothes and toys, etc. Not to mention staying in our smaller house. Is it worth it? In my mind, absolutely. If we try but are not blessed with #3 at some point, then okay. But I think that I, personally, would be heartbroken down the road if I let our financial situation and worry about the future keep me from trying to have the bigger family I've always wanted.