WWYD? Rated R material during field trip

[oneplustwo]

10-year-old DD went with her fifth grade classmates on a field trip to a well-known arts museum yesterday. She came home to tell me about a scrolling electronic sign in the lobby of the museum, where she and just about all the kids saw totally inappropriate stuff scrolling away towards the end of their visit. She told me it included tons of swear words (f*** and sh**) and a lot about sex. She was a little bit disturbed, and very, very perplexed. She was also concerned that there were a lot of other, younger, kids in the lobby who could be seeing it. She couldn't understand why this was there and how it got to be there. It's all the kids talked about on the bus ride home and for the rest of the day (not quite the educational field trip that was planned!). DD brought it to her teacher's attention, who then quickly gathered the kids together and hustled them out.

I followed up with DD's teacher, who said another teacher in the school had a contact at the museum and was contacting that person to find out exactly what was going on. DD's teacher forwarded to me the response from the other school teacher:

"So I talked to my friend at the MFA and as it turns out there are some pretty graphic words and phrases on that marquee. The words and phrases come from Jenny Holzer who has published various essays and truisms. The material of her truisms apparently included the word sh** as well as graphic talk of rape and sex. If a parent wants to know specifically what's displayed he/she can purchase the museum's catalog."

DD's teacher says the school plans to follow up with the museum's leaders to, ahem, give feedback.

I am not a confrontational person, but I'm pretty livid about the whole thing. I'm glad the school plans to follow up, but geez Louise, what the heck was the museum thinking? I fired off an email this evening to the museum's PR manager (highest level employee I could find direct contact for). I am ticked off that the museum would even suggest that a parent concerned about what their child was exposed to would have to PAY to get the details. Meanwhile I am having lengthy conversations with DD and dealing with the fallout there.

So, what would you do in this situation? How would you feel? Am I blowing this out of proportion?

[ellies mom]

I am pretty laid back about most things but I'd be fuming about that too. Especially because of the whole "if you want to know what it says, you can buy the program" bit. It would have been better for them to have responded with "We are sorry blah, blah, blah. here is the transcript. this is why we felt this excerpt had value in spite of the graphic nature..."

[DietCokeLover]

I would be beating the door down of the museum tomorrow morning. That is completely unacceptable and I wouldn't leave til I had some satisfaction.

[DebbieJ]

Wow! Yeah, I would not be happy either. I hope you get to the bottom of it.

[ahisma]

I'd be frustrated but likely would not pursue it. It sounds like the teachers handled it the best that they could - leaving the area once they knew about it.

Art is often graphic. I may not be the best judge though, having grown up surrounded by artists. I'm generally pretty conservative (modesty wise, not politically) but I make an exception for artistic expression. Do I want my kid seeing that? Ideally, not without me there. I think this was a genuine "oops" though.

I think it's good that the school is planning to give feedback, probably best to give teachers a heads up to bypass that area!

[sntm]

If that was truly the response from the museum, then that was rude on their part (though it came to you third-hand, so it may not exactly have been like that.) I think the teachers should maybe have done a little research to figure out what the special exhibits were, so they could either avoid them or warn the parents or something for ones that were more provocative. I'd be unhappy with how things turned out, but not extremely so.

Many art museums do have some minor warnings for things that are very racy or distrubing but it is subjective and they are mostly targeting adults, so they might not have thought that curse words needed a heads up. I know Jenny Holzer's work, so I would have expected no less :)

Though, my son saw the Francis Bacon exhibit which was mildly creepy when he was not even 6 and the Picasso exhibit with lots of nudes and war paintings when he was 7, so at age 10, I'd be fine with him seeing Holzer and having some interesting conversations about why it is disturbing and what she meant by that. For me, it's one of the great things about art.

[oneplustwo]

If that was truly the response from the museum, then that was rude on their part (though it came to you third-hand, so it may not exactly have been like that.) I think the teachers should maybe have done a little research to figure out what the special exhibits were, so they could either avoid them or warn the parents or something for ones that were more provocative. I'd be unhappy with how things turned out, but not extremely so.

Many art museums do have some minor warnings for things that are very racy or distrubing but it is subjective and they are mostly targeting adults, so they might not have thought that curse words needed a heads up. I know Jenny Holzer's work, so I would have expected no less :)



Would you be okay with her work being displayed in the museum's lobby where everyone passes in and out? There was no way to avoid it. There were no warnings. I agree that I've gotten the museum's response second hand so I can't be sure it was as cavalier as it sounded. That's why I sent an email to the museum; I really want to hear directly from them about this.

And would you be okay with graphic phrases about sexual intercourse and rape? This, more than the swear words, is what DD is struggling with, and what I'm grappling with.

[kellij]

I think that is shocking and I would be super-upset about the rape part of it. Wow.

[ett]

Oh wow! You are not overreacting at all. I would be super upset about it. And the museum's response about buying the catalog to find out what was displayed, that's just ridiculous!

[mjs64]

I'll be a voice of dissent here. I would take the opportunity to discuss the ways art functions as protest and critique, and to open up a discussion about the sad reality of sexual violence. I wish we lived in a culture where 10 year old girls were invulnerable to it, but the fact is that they are not. I do agree that it would have been nice to have been warned as a parent, but I think that there could be a productive result here, for you and your DD.

[sntm]

I missed that it was in the lobby. That's not good planning on their part and I agree with saying something to the museum. She has a number of pieces that are still provocative without being as graphic that they could have used as a teaser to get people to the exhibit.

For my part, I'm pretty open with DS about stuff like that, so I probably wouldn't mind it if I could talk with him about it. He already has a limited (and mostly uninterested) knowledge of intercourse. With regards to talk about rape, for me and DS, it might in some ways be a good opportunity to parallel it to other talks about people doing bad things (as I've done enough of that lately with freaking SW Clone Wars), that some people because of anger or insecurity or what have you will force another person to go through sex when they don't want to, and it's a terrible thing because sex should be a good, trusting experience that both people enjoy. I haven't seen her exhibits personally, so I don't know if she took a more sarcastic tone towards things that would be harder to explain but if so, you could approach it that she (the artist) was upset enough about the subject that she used sarcasm as a defense against the horror of it.

FWIW, in med school, I taught a sex ed class at a middle school where we talked about all of these things, and it was CRAZY how much they knew, thought they knew, or knew incorrectly. These were 12 year olds, so not very different.

[bisous]

I'm not a fan of this kind of "art" at all, really. DH is a professional artist and color him unimpressed as well. BUT...

As much as I think it is a poor choice for the art museum, I really think the responsibility lies with the teachers for not researching the museum better. "The shock of the new" has been a trend forever in art museums and they should have done some research to make sure that the exhibits were appropriate for their children.

I'm so sorry for your DD. I would be really upset too.

FWIW, I have no problem with classic nudes.

[Globetrotter]

I think you, as the parent, should decide when your child is ready for something like this. It looks like the teachers made a mistake - they should have known in advance what was being exhibited.

[Uno-Mom]

I would honestly feel good that the school is addressing it. I would not pursue it further after emailing the PR person, but that's just me.

The teachers are the ones who impact your daughter on a daily basis and I'd feel good that they are taking the situation seriously. They are WAY more important to your daughter than the museum.

I agree with PPs that there is a rightfully disturbing element to art. I'm not familiar with that particular artist, I'm more a literature-type vs visual art. If my daughter is a mature 10 (that's 8 years away!) and has other qualities that make it seem appropriate, I might be introducing her to some more shocking elements of art by that age. Those are a couple BIG ifs, though. I know many 10-year-olds who couldn't handle it, no way. And anyway, I would want to experience those things with my daughter, not have her process it with teachers.

A lobby, during daytime hours when they know they draw school field trips... nope, I think the museum made a crummy choice.

[ett]

As much as I think it is a poor choice for the art museum, I really think the responsibility lies with the teachers for not researching the museum better. "The shock of the new" has been a trend forever in art museums and they should have done some research to make sure that the exhibits were appropriate for their children.


But as the OP stated, this was in the lobby of the museum. One would assume that what's displayed in the lobby would be appropriate for kids, especially at a museum that hosts school field trips. It's not the teachers fault.

[oneplustwo]

Knowing the artist's name, I think I was able to find a little about the installation in question. It's been in place since 1990. We've been to the museum many times since DD was born (and I've been many times before that) and I'm pretty sure I know this marquee. I don't ever recall seeing the graphic phrases that DD and her classmates saw. So now I'm even more curious to know if anyone has had an issue with it in all those years.

Again, there is no way to avoid the installation. It's in the main lobby of the museum.

I think this is it:

http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/selections-from-truisms-inflammatory-essays-the-living-series-the-survival-series-under-a-rock-laments-and-child-text-35313

Many thanks for the ideas in how to address this with DD; they're very helpful.

[Reyadawnbringer]

I'll be a voice of dissent here. I would take the opportunity to discuss the ways art functions as protest and critique, and to open up a discussion about the sad reality of sexual violence. I wish we lived in a culture where 10 year old girls were invulnerable to it, but the fact is that they are not. I do agree that it would have been nice to have been warned as a parent, but I think that there could be a productive result here, for you and your DD.

:yeahthat:

I would personally see this as an opportunity for some productive discussions about the world. ideally we would hope that our Coleen can remain innocent forever, but the teenage years sneak up quick.

[maestramommy]

I think it would've been nice if the museum had a sign warning people of the graphic content, so that parents and teachers could bypass if they wanted. That said, I don't really think 10yo is too young to hear/see the F word, or other swear words. It's been a good teaching moment on the perception of art!

If it was the kind of place where most of the visitors are kids, then yeah, that would not be appropriate. But for an art museum which has the full range of visitors, I think it's fine. But I would also be pretty irritated at the "buy our catalog if you want to know more" reponse.

[Melaine]

I would pursue it with the museum. They should not have that material in the lobby, it should be displayed with warnings, and the warning info should be given to school groups (and parents) before entry IMO. The museum lobby should NOT be a place where children see those kind of things. And the suggestion of PURCHASING something to get more info is laughable in an not-so-funny way.

I'm sorry that your DD had to see it!

[mmommy]

It is artwork, meant to provoke thought and response. Not all artwork is beautiful. Some of it is downright ugly.

The shame is that the teachers were unprepared and didn't lead a discussion with the students about what they saw. Instead they shuffled them away and didn't address it, leaving them with more questions.

It is wonderful that your daughter came to you about this and that because of your relationship with her you are able to address her questions.

[Corie]

But as the OP stated, this was in the lobby of the museum. One would assume that what's displayed in the lobby would be appropriate for kids, especially at a museum that hosts school field trips. It's not the teachers fault.


I agree!

[TwinFoxes]

I empathize with you being upset. But I really doubt the response from the friend of the teacher means the museum was blowing off parents concerns by saying "they can buy the catalog". It was someone, for all we know who works in the ticket office, answering a friend's question. That may have been the only place she knew where to get more info.

If the PR person writes that, it's a different story.

I do kind of agree with PP that the chances of there being something shocking and offensive are pretty good at most museums these days. I don't think I'd be all that upset about this though. I don't swear and don't like profanity, but written words as part of an art exhibit doesn't bug me as much. At 10 she clearly knew the swear words, and I do think it's a chance to talk about art and expression.

If that's been installed for 20 years as your update said, I doubt they'll be changing it. I don't know what else they could do, maybe turn it off when kids come through? But that might be hard. How big is the lobby? Could they direct kids through a different part of the lobby? I'm surprised you and the teachers hadn't noticed it before.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I empathize with you being upset. But I really doubt the response from the friend of the teacher means the museum was blowing off parents concerns by saying "they can buy the catalog". It was someone, for all we know who works in the ticket office, answering a friend's question. That may have been the only place she knew where to get more info.

If the PR person writes that, it's a different story.

I do kind of agree with PP that the chances of there being something shocking and offensive are pretty good at most museums these days. I don't think I'd be all that upset about this though. I don't swear and don't like profanity, but written words as part of an art exhibit doesn't bug me as much. At 10 she clearly knew the swear words, and I do think it's a chance to talk about art and expression.

If that's been installed for 20 years as your update said, I doubt they'll be changing it. I don't know what else they could do, maybe turn it off when kids come through? But that might be hard. How big is the lobby? Could they direct kids through a different part of the lobby? I'm surprised you and the teachers hadn't noticed it before.

That's how I feel about it too.

OP, I think the end story for your family is that it is awesome that she came and talked to you about it. I hope that line of dialogue can stay open!

[mommylamb]

I'll be a voice of dissent here. I would take the opportunity to discuss the ways art functions as protest and critique, and to open up a discussion about the sad reality of sexual violence. I wish we lived in a culture where 10 year old girls were invulnerable to it, but the fact is that they are not. I do agree that it would have been nice to have been warned as a parent, but I think that there could be a productive result here, for you and your DD.

:yeahthat: That's how I feel too. I really wouldn't dwell on it.

[Melaine]

I'm not sure why you can't both 1) have a productive learning conversation with your child about what they saw and also 2) contact the museum about your disapproval.

This isn't JUST about OP's DD and the children in her class. It's about other classes and families that will be exposed to the same material. Some of them will be younger readers. If I had seen that at age 6 or 7 it probably would have been my first exposure to some of that language. I think it's responsible as a parent to pursue issues like this that affect our society as a whole and other kids. Adults need to work together to protect kids from violence and they shouldn't be reading about it in that format and in that environment.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I empathize with you being upset. But I really doubt the response from the friend of the teacher means the museum was blowing off parents concerns by saying "they can buy the catalog". It was someone, for all we know who works in the ticket office, answering a friend's question. That may have been the only place she knew where to get more info.

If the PR person writes that, it's a different story.

I do kind of agree with PP that the chances of there being something shocking and offensive are pretty good at most museums these days. I don't think I'd be all that upset about this though. I don't swear and don't like profanity, but written words as part of an art exhibit doesn't bug me as much. At 10 she clearly knew the swear words, and I do think it's a chance to talk about art and expression.

.
:yeahthat: i agree. i agree with PP that it's a chance to talk about what the artist was talking about.

i remember several years ago going to a history museum and in the section about the pre-Incan and Incan art there was an entire ROOM on erotic pottery/sculptures. There were jugs shaped like huge penises, exaggerated boobs, and whatnot. I'll never forget a 5th grade class walking though, all of them pointing, tittering, gasping, etc and the teacher trying to calm them down and explain.

[Green_Tea]

I empathize with you being upset. But I really doubt the response from the friend of the teacher means the museum was blowing off parents concerns by saying "they can buy the catalog". It was someone, for all we know who works in the ticket office, answering a friend's question. That may have been the only place she knew where to get more info.

If the PR person writes that, it's a different story.

I do kind of agree with PP that the chances of there being something shocking and offensive are pretty good at most museums these days. I don't think I'd be all that upset about this though. I don't swear and don't like profanity, but written words as part of an art exhibit doesn't bug me as much. At 10 she clearly knew the swear words, and I do think it's a chance to talk about art and expression.

If that's been installed for 20 years as your update said, I doubt they'll be changing it. I don't know what else they could do, maybe turn it off when kids come through? But that might be hard. How big is the lobby? Could they direct kids through a different part of the lobby? I'm surprised you and the teachers hadn't noticed it before.

Yes to all of this.

[Clarity]

I'll be a voice of dissent here. I would take the opportunity to discuss the ways art functions as protest and critique, and to open up a discussion about the sad reality of sexual violence. I wish we lived in a culture where 10 year old girls were invulnerable to it, but the fact is that they are not. I do agree that it would have been nice to have been warned as a parent, but I think that there could be a productive result here, for you and your DD.

:yeahthat:I would not be as angry at the Art Museum as much as I'd question the school's decision to take their students to the Art Museum without reviewing what exhibits were on display. It's their responsibility to be aware of what they are exposing your students too while on a field trip.

[artvandalay]

I'm not sure why you can't both 1) have a productive learning conversation with your child about what they saw and also 2) contact the museum about your disapproval.

This isn't JUST about OP's DD and the children in her class. It's about other classes and families that will be exposed to the same material. Some of them will be younger readers. If I had seen that at age 6 or 7 it probably would have been my first exposure to some of that language. I think it's responsible as a parent to pursue issues like this that affect our society as a whole and other kids. Adults need to work together to protect kids from violence and they shouldn't be reading about it in that format and in that environment.

I agree with all of this. I would be very upset and would absolutely pursue a formal complaint.

[MamaMolly]

I'll be honest, my head is spinning I'm so livid for you and especially for your DD.

I get that art can be ugly. I get that it can be provocative for the sake of conversation. I also would not have a problem with Lula seeing nudes, Picasso's or the Classic Master's style or what ever. I'm also not in a twist about the profanity. Kids are going to hear stuff. Big whoop.

But to *have to* explain RAPE to a 10 year old??!! I can NOT believe how meh and cavelier some of the responses here are. First of all, the OP has to explain sex to her 10 year old (if she hasn't already done that). Then she gets to explain rape. Fun times.

Seriously, all of you who are like 'oh, it's good for conversation' How would you feel if one of your child's first exposures to the subject of sex was within the context of RAPE?????

OP, I don't know what to tell you other that I think you are right to be disturbed. I'd be interested to hear what the museum has to say.

[Green_Tea]

But to *have to* explain RAPE to a 10 year old??!! I can NOT believe how meh and cavelier some of the responses here are. First of all, the OP has to explain sex to her 10 year old (if she hasn't already done that). Then she gets to explain rape. Fun times.

Seriously, all of you who are like 'oh, it's good for conversation' How would you feel if one of your child's first exposures to the subject of sex was within the context of RAPE?????



By the age of 10, kids can *read*. The headlines on magazine and newspapers frequently refer to violent crimes, rape, genocide, hate crimes, home invasions, arson. If the majority of 10 years olds hadn't had *some* level of exposure to those words and concepts previously, I'd be really, really surprised. I also don't think 10 years old is particularly young to learn what rape is, and by 5th grade most kids have had some sex ed through school so it certainly wouldn't be their very first exposure.

I think it's fine to find the exhibit offensive. But it's been an installation in the lobby of one of the most important art museums in the United States for many years and I would not expect the museum to change it. I also think the benefits of children visiting the museum and learning about art - all art - far outweigh the potential offense they might take at a single piece of art. Some people might find Guernica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)) too disturbing for children to view. Others might think that The Problem We All Live With (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_We_All_Live_With) begs questions that they're not ready to explore with their kids. People might even be uncomfortable with graphic depictions of the crucifixion. I would never dream of asking a museum to cover or remove those types of pieces, and I don't think this is much different.

[vonfirmath]

MamaMolly: Honestly the cavalier attitude on this board to this "exhibit" etc makes me think maybe I should just keep my kids off of field trips altogether if they go to public school. The general public evidently thinks that it is okay to destroy kids' innocence so I can't trust them to protect my child.

[artvandalay]

By the age of 10, kids can *read*. The headlines on magazine and newspapers frequently refer to violent crimes, rape, genocide, hate crimes, home invasions, arson. If the majority of 10 years olds hadn't had *some* level of exposure to those words and concepts previously, I'd be really, really surprised. .

I agree 10 year olds may already have been exposed to these words already, but what about younger children? My 5 year old is just starting to read... I do not want him trying to sound out the F word or asking me what rape is.

I don't think this material should be allowed in the lobby. I could care less what the exhibit contains because if you are entering the exhibit, you should have some sort of an idea what it is about. Using this language in the LOBBY where young children can see it is very poor judgement by the museum.

If the sign in the lobby is attempting to be edgy and provocative to lure people in, can't they find a way to omit these words? Or allude to the material without actually using the F words or rape?

[twindad]

I would be beating the door down of the museum tomorrow morning. That is completely unacceptable and I wouldn't leave til I had some satisfaction.

I would take this approach as well.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I can agree that the lobby isnt the best place for it.

Without having seen the display (and I'm not buying the book ;)), I would want to really know what they mean by graphic and explicit. There is a line I wouldn't be ok with.

[TwinFoxes]

. The general public evidently thinks that it is okay to destroy kids' innocence so I can't trust them to protect my child.

Until now you thought you could trust the general public to protect your child?

[bcafe]

I'll be honest, my head is spinning I'm so livid for you and especially for your DD.

I get that art can be ugly. I get that it can be provocative for the sake of conversation. I also would not have a problem with Lula seeing nudes, Picasso's or the Classic Master's style or what ever. I'm also not in a twist about the profanity. Kids are going to hear stuff. Big whoop.

But to *have to* explain RAPE to a 10 year old??!! I can NOT believe how meh and cavelier some of the responses here are. First of all, the OP has to explain sex to her 10 year old (if she hasn't already done that). Then she gets to explain rape. Fun times.

Seriously, all of you who are like 'oh, it's good for conversation' How would you feel if one of your child's first exposures to the subject of sex was within the context of RAPE?????

OP, I don't know what to tell you other that I think you are right to be disturbed. I'd be interested to hear what the museum has to say.
I agree completely. The vehement responses to the indirect/accidental exposure to religion on here seems to be the complete opposite on this board. If I would respond to the OP's post as "my head would explode, I would be so angry" as has been posted on other threads, would I be chastised because this was "art"?

[♥ms.pacman♥]

By the age of 10, kids can *read*. The headlines on magazine and newspapers frequently refer to violent crimes, rape, genocide, hate crimes, home invasions, arson. If the majority of 10 years olds hadn't had *some* level of exposure to those words and concepts previously, I'd be really, really surprised. I also don't think 10 years old is particularly young to learn what rape is, and by 5th grade most kids have had some sex ed through school so it certainly wouldn't be their very first exposure.

I think it's fine to find the exhibit offensive. But it's been an installation in the lobby of one of the most important art museums in the United States for many years and I would not expect the museum to change it. I also think the benefits of children visiting the museum and learning about art - all art - far outweigh the potential offense they might take at a single piece of art. Some people might find Guernica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)) too disturbing for children to view. Others might think that The Problem We All Live With (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_We_All_Live_With) begs questions that they're not ready to explore with their kids. People might even be uncomfortable with graphic depictions of the crucifixion. I would never dream of asking a museum to cover or remove those types of pieces, and I don't think this is much different.

:yeahthat:

i could not agree more. if every piece of art that someone found offensive was taken down, there'd be almost nothing left to display.

honestly i think the bulk of graphic/offensive stuff a kid will come across will be headlines/magazine covers you can read just from standing in line at the grocery store.

[Melaine]

:yeahthat:

i could not agree more. if every piece of art that someone found offensive was taken down, there'd be almost nothing left to display.

I've never understood that logic. If every piece of art that someone somewhere found acceptable was put in high-traffic areas, there would be nowhere safe to take our families.

Shouldn't we have some standards as a society for what is acceptable for children?

[TwinFoxes]

I've never understood that logic. If every piece of art that someone somewhere found acceptable was put in high-traffic areas, there would be nowhere safe to take our families.

Shouldn't we have some standards as a society for what is acceptable for children?

But it's not a public place.

I'm not even saying it's a good idea for the MFA to display it, but it's an art museum. It's a private institution. The installation has been there 20 years. It's not like one day you show up at school and someone's parked it on the lawn. If I'm remembering correctly, the lobby is pretty huge. Now that the teacher's are aware, they can steer the kids away from what looks like a pretty small exhibit (in comparison to the rest of the lobby).

I do think the OP and any other parent should let their dissatisfaction be known. Just as it's the museum's right to display it, it's her/their right to let them know think it's inappropriate, and perhaps the museum can can think of a way of minimizing kids' exposure to it.

[wendmatt]

[QUOTE=artvandalay;3393521]I agree 10 year olds may already have been exposed to these words already, but what about younger children? My 5 year old is just starting to read... I do not want him trying to sound out the F word or asking me what rape is.

I don't think this material should be allowed in the lobby. I could care less what the exhibit contains because if you are entering the exhibit, you should have some sort of an idea what it is about. Using this language in the LOBBY where young children can see it is very poor judgement by the museum.

I agree with this. And for all of you that say 10 year olds have lots of exposure to this kind of talk, I'm not sure where you're children are going, but my 9 year old does not see/hear a great deal of talk about rape and sex. Yes she is aware of sex but violence and rape no. She could read at age 4 and I would not want her to have seen this then or now. I am not a prude, I have nothing against nudity and I think kids should see art of boobs and peniss to know it's real and natural, viiolent language and rape is not OK in my book for kids to see. Yes it's an art museum but children should be able to attend an art museum. Take out the foul language from the lobby, keep is provocative but there is no need for that much explicit detail in the lobby.

[LMPC]

But it's not a public place.

I'm not even saying it's a good idea for the MFA to display it, but it's an art museum. It's a private institution. The installation has been there 20 years. It's not like one day you show up at school and someone's parked it on the lawn. If I'm remembering correctly, the lobby is pretty huge. Now that the teacher's are aware, they can steer the kids away from what looks like a pretty small exhibit (in comparison to the rest of the lobby).

I do think the OP and any other parent should let their dissatisfaction be known. Just as it's the museum's right to display it, it's her/their right to let them know think it's inappropriate, and perhaps the museum can can think of a way of minimizing kids' exposure to it.

This is pretty much where I am on the issue. And I have been to museums that have both exhibited provocative art and done so in a responsible way (hmmm, I guess that's the way to put it). In particular, I am thinking about a Maplethorpe exhibit that I saw then I was in high school. It was in a room that was kind of off to the side and the signs telling you it was maplethorpe were pretty big...no missing what it was. So people that wanted to could view the art but those that might not want to could move on to something else.

And I also think that we are kidding ourselves to think that kids by 10 years old don't hear/see/say words like f*** and s***. Ditto for exposure to the idea of rape...whether it be as part of a news program about the horrors of war or something that might have happened in our towns....rape is a word that is not uncommon in our lives. Unfortunately.

[Clarity]

Until now you thought you could trust the general public to protect your child?


:yeahthat: My dd started K in September and I'm regularly disappointed over the things she is exposed to in public school. My argument is simply that it wasn't as much the museums responsibility to police the appropriateness of the field trip, it was the schools. I'd be on the horn to the principal first.

[AnnieW625]

I would have to see it myself to judge it. I honesty think that this moment would be a good teaching moment, ESP. for a 10-11 yr. old about how art works and that while we don't want to use swear words on a regular basis adults who are often frustrated use them to express themselves even though they know they aren't nice words. I know for sure my DD1 has at least heard s..t said a few times by both me and DH and we aren't proud of that, but it has happened. We told her that s..t means poop and it is not a nice word and we don't say it.

Oh and if this is public school even in the most progressive schools I am sure a conversation or in depth lesson about art and swearing would probably not be approved by the administration.

[R2sweetboys]

I am far from being a prude. We are very open with the boys about the topic of sex and they can ask us anything they want. If they asked about what rape is, I'd tell them but I'd like to avoid it for now! They both have seen some rated R movies with swear words(no sexual content) and they know they are not allowed to use them. With all that being said, OP I would also be angry over what happened. I am all for art in any form but not without any regard for the audience that may view it. It is ridiculous to me that the museum would not, at the very least, warn schools coming in for field trips that this display was there. It could be placed somewhere easier to avoid or even turned off when students are present. That just seems like common sense to me! Perhaps the teachers could have done more research about the exhibits, but they still may not have known the details of the Jenny Holzer piece on display.

OP, I'm curious about what the PR person says. If I were to email, I'd be nice about it but let them know that they should warn schools coming in for field trips of the graphic content. Then the school can decide how to deal with it. If they really cared, they'd do something to make sure students can't see the content when visiting. I'm sorry you have to deal with a discussion about rape with your 10 year old, that really stinks. I'd try to keep it as basic as possible and answer her questions as they come. :hug:

[Momit]

But it's not a public place.

I'm not even saying it's a good idea for the MFA to display it, but it's an art museum. It's a private institution. The installation has been there 20 years. It's not like one day you show up at school and someone's parked it on the lawn. If I'm remembering correctly, the lobby is pretty huge. Now that the teacher's are aware, they can steer the kids away from what looks like a pretty small exhibit (in comparison to the rest of the lobby).

I do think the OP and any other parent should let their dissatisfaction be known. Just as it's the museum's right to display it, it's her/their right to let them know think it's inappropriate, and perhaps the museum can can think of a way of minimizing kids' exposure to it.

This is well said. However, I would disagree a little that a museum lobby is not a public place. Many museums have cafes and gift shops that you can go to without buying admission to the museum, and many people do go to the museum without attending one of the special exhibits. I don't recall the layout of the MFA specifically, it's been years since I've been there.

It certainly makes sense to voice your dissatisfaction if something bothers you. Maybe the museum will consider mentioning to elementary school groups that there's something of graphic nature in the lobby so the teachers are at least prepared. Or offering an alternative entrance for school groups.

[Kindra178]

I'll be honest, my head is spinning I'm so livid for you and especially for your DD.

I get that art can be ugly. I get that it can be provocative for the sake of conversation. I also would not have a problem with Lula seeing nudes, Picasso's or the Classic Master's style or what ever. I'm also not in a twist about the profanity. Kids are going to hear stuff. Big whoop.

But to *have to* explain RAPE to a 10 year old??!! I can NOT believe how meh and cavelier some of the responses here are. First of all, the OP has to explain sex to her 10 year old (if she hasn't already done that). Then she gets to explain rape. Fun times.

Seriously, all of you who are like 'oh, it's good for conversation' How would you feel if one of your child's first exposures to the subject of sex was within the context of RAPE?????

OP, I don't know what to tell you other that I think you are right to be disturbed. I'd be interested to hear what the museum has to say.

I understand why you are outraged on behalf of the OP. I am thrilled that this art inspired conversation between mom and daughter. I am disappointed that the teachers could have used this as a learning opportunity and then punted.

I wonder if your outrage is coming as a mom of a 5 or 6 year old. Sex in general is or will be in short order a hot topic in the ten year old crowd. Sexual violence is an aspect of sex that needs to be addressed. Obviously, the discussion with a ten year old is different than with a fourteen year old. Frankly, I would work with the school, teachers, social workers and principal on a special assembly addressing this in a unified way.

[smilequeen]

I am not sure I'd be livid or anything, but I agree that that content does not belong in the lobby for all to see. Some exhibits at art museums will be adult, but art museums as a whole should be safe for kids. The school seems to be handling it well, but a few well worded messages from parents about the location of the exhibit probably wouldn't hurt the cause.

[crayonblue]

The vehement responses to the indirect/accidental exposure to religion on here seems to be the complete opposite on this board.

Interesting...so people would rather their kids be exposed to explicit sex/rape than Jesus. Probably.

OP, I agree that this sort of display shouldn't be out in the open in the foyer. I've been to a few museums that had adult type displays in separate rooms. I would make sure the museum understands that this is inappropriate.

[justlearning]

I would be VERY angry about the the poor judgment showed by different officials--those at the museum for putting that in the entryway unless they banned any school field trips during the time of the display, those at the school for not researching the exhibits beforehand, the friend at the museum who supposedly said that parents have to purchase the material to know what was said, etc.

You said that the school was going to give feedback to the museum about the situation, but did they say anything about notifying parents about what their kids may have been exposed to? It would be especially horrible for kids to have seen that content but not tell their parents (perhaps out of embarrassment or fear of their parents getting mad) and then have that info in their brains without being able to process it with a parent. I think that allthe parents have a right to know what happened, especially because it sounds like the kids were talking about it in the bus so even those who didn't see it have been exposed to the content in some way as well.

[Kindra178]

I agree completely. The vehement responses to the indirect/accidental exposure to religion on here seems to be the complete opposite on this board. If I would respond to the OP's post as "my head would explode, I would be so angry" as has been posted on other threads, would I be chastised because this was "art"?

I just don't think you can compare exposure to religion/Jesus, either accidental or on purpose, to exposure to provocative art that may not be appropriate for younger elementary kids.

[buddyleebaby]

I would be ok(ish) with my child seeing "the f word" in print. I imagine that by age 10 it would be something she had seen/heard before.


I would not be ok with her reading something that described in detail rape , any more than I would be ok with her looking at a photo or a painting depicting a rape. Honestly, as an adult, I would not like to look at "art" depicting a rape.

While I don't think the museum is under any obligation to change their display, I do think that if they are going to offer field trips to young children, they need to upfront about what they are choosing to display when booking these field trips (IE: Heads up, there is a wall of lit up vulvas in the main lobby, we advise you to use the side entrance), and put some effort into making sure the art that is shown (and subsequent discussions) are appropriate for the grade level they are hosting. That is the whole point of an educational trip.

[oneplustwo]

I want to thank each and every one of you for your thoughtful comments. They are really so helpful to me, and I appreciate all the different perspectives.

As many have surmised, DD and her classmates are familiar with the swear words they saw. It is the graphic phrases about sex and rape that my DD at least is grappling with. She knows about sex but we hadn't discussed rape per se. DD also knows that was she saw was highly inappropriate and can't figure out why it was where tons of people and kids could see it. And as I've said, we've been to this museum tons before and while I've seen the marquee/diode, I never read any of the graphic parts or even the swear words (apparently there's a good bit of text that scrolls by, so there's an issue of timing). The info on the museum's website about the installation doesn't give exactly a clear idea of what you might read ~ here's the info:

In 1977 Holzer created Truisms, her first all-text compositions. She typed "one-liners," had them printed commercially, and pasted them up as posters on the street. Later, Holzer placed her words on such familiar, ubiquitous objects as LED signs, T-shirts, and stickers. Variously insightful, hostile, or comic, these words and phrases express multiple viewpoints and arouse multiple responses. As the artist intended, numerous people have read her words and been amused, challenged, or provoked.

In 1990 the Museum of Fine Arts commissioned Holzer to create this LED sign for the collection. The artist chose to include excerpts from seven different series created between 1977 and 1990, each selection appearing in a different typeface and format. The words stream at varying speeds, and the tone is constantly changing-aggressive to mild, authoritative to questioning, practical to fear inducing. The result is a blend of familiarity and confusion that puts Holzer's artwork squarely in the modern age of advertising slogans, newspaper headlines, and sound bites.


I did receive an email from the PR person earlier today. She said:

Thank you for your note about your daughter’s recent visit to the MFA. I will make sure that you receive a response.

So I'll see where that leads. I did ask for a copy of the material that's included on the marquee so that I can better determine exactly what DD saw and help address it with her.

DD's teacher is also talking with the school's art teacher about the issue, since the art teacher is the one who coordinated the field trip.

I am so very glad and thankful that DD came to talk to me about it and is comfortable to ask me questions (oy, lots of questions!). We are UUs and DH and I are talking about whether this incident could be discussed during the sex ed class that the UU fifth graders will start next month, since there were several other UU kids there.

[wellyes]

This doesn't mean to be flippant - but - reading these posts makes me realize that I can't think of a fine art museum without depictions of rape (at least historical /biblical/mythological).

[SkyrMommy]

OP, I'm glad you are at least getting some where with a response from boththe museum and the school.

I think the first problem was with the organization of the trip, I know as a former art teacher (elementary - high school) the amout of research I had to do into museum trips, creating outlines of the exhibit we were to see and trying to anticipate controversial exhibits and installations. It was my, and the school's, job to inform the parents and students of what we were going to see, for example once very disturbing but amazing Holocaust photography that parelled their history curriculum, other times it's been as simple as nudes.

An art museum, especially a modern or contemporary museum is going to have more controversial and in-your-face, shock exhibits because for better or worse that is the direction art took and some artists still take. Some museums have better installations with separate rooms and information preceeding entry to make it easier to avoid the topics if you so choose. I hope you get a response fom the museum that explains their stance on this exhibit.

In my opinion if more people were willing to take a moment, process what they see and learn from that experience we would all be in a more tolerant and open world. I think as a parent you are already doing this and teaching your child to do this and your DD sounds amazing for her willingness to talk through an obviously disturbing subject.

[Melbel]

As the mom of a 10 year old girl, I would be very upset, based upon the location of the display in the lobby, and the graphic descriptions of sex and rape.

I would hold both the museum and the teachers mutually culpable of poor judgment/planning. In our local art museums, the more provocative exhibits are on a particular floor and patrons are clearly warned. In this case, the parents were not forewarned and given the opportunity to opt out. The museum may be privately owned, but kids attending a public school were taken to the display.

[Green_Tea]

I would hold both the museum and the teachers mutually culpable of poor judgment/planning.

It sounds as though the marquee displays a great deal of text, and that only some of it contains words that people might find offensive. I've been to the MFA several times and never even noticed the marquee, and apparently it's been there for 20 years. Even the OP says she's never seen offensive text displayed. Short of standing in front of the marquee for as long as it takes to see every bit of text, how could the teachers planning the trip have known? I'd hate to see some poor teacher who was trying to give his or her students a positive art experience reprimanded for something they could not have known would happen.

[TwinFoxes]

So I youtubed her, and realize I've seen one of her installations before. Looking at the style of the text, it doesn't seem like any explicit sections would be long and graphic depictions of rape. But this video doesn't contain any explicit phrases, so I can't say for sure. It is a very small sign that teachers will probably be able to avoid in the future. BTW, this is from the Tate Liverpool, but I don't think I saw it there, I think I saw it at SFMOMA. It was similar, so I'm assuming the one in question is too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlFbLrV8r5Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ETA: I watched with the sound off, I don't know what the audio is.

[ellies mom]

It sounds as though the marquee displays a great deal of text, and that only some of it contains words that people might find offensive. I've been to the MFA several times and never even noticed the marquee, and apparently it's been there for 20 years. Even the OP says she's never seen offensive text displayed. Short of standing in front of the marquee for as long as it takes to see every bit of text, how could the teachers planning the trip have known? I'd hate to see some poor teacher who was trying to give his or her students a positive art experience reprimanded for something they could not have known would happen.

Thinking about this further and looking into the exhibit as best I can, I agree with this. From what the website says, each phrase only stays up for 1-2 seconds. I have no idea how many phrases there are but in one of her German exhibits, it takes 12 days for the phrases to repeat. I did find an essay on the work but they did not list many of the phrases although they did discuss some but they did not mention rape as the topic of any of them. It is unfortunate that it is so difficult to find a list of the phrases used in the exhibit because that makes it difficult to know what the OP's daughter actually saw versus what she thought she saw or what she pieced together while talking to her friends about it.

[justlearning]

Here's a link to the content that your daughter quite possibly saw:
http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/contemporary/Jenny-Holzer.html

Note that at the bottom of that link is a description of her Lustmord work along with the text. Warning that it is very graphic and disturbing--I didn't even read it all. If that's what was scrolling, I think it is absolutely horrible that it would be shown in a place with no warning at all. There's a reason that certain movies are rated R and kids aren't allowed to enter into the theater. This should have been rated similarly--even if it is "art"--with a guard standing out front not allowing 10-year-olds to enter that exhibit.

[Green_Tea]

Here's a link to the content that your daughter quite possibly saw:
http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/contemporary/Jenny-Holzer.html

Note that at the bottom of that link is a description of her Lustmord work along with the text. Warning that it is very graphic and disturbing--I didn't even read it all. If that's what was scrolling, I think it is absolutely horrible that it would be shown in a place with no warning at all. There's a reason that certain movies are rated R and kids aren't allowed to enter into the theater. This should have been rated similarly--even if it is "art"--with a guard standing out front not allowing 10-year-olds to enter that exhibit.

I don't believe that Lustmord is on display in the lobby of the MFA. I'd remember that. I think it is a marquee like the one TwinFoxes linked to. I believe it scrolls the truisms that are listed in your link. I am not sure if the list of truisms in the link is comprehensive, but I see the F word used only once, and don't see the word sh*t at all.

[justlearning]

I don't believe that Lustmord is on display in the lobby of the MFA. I'd remember that. I think it is a marquee like the one TwinFoxes linked to. I believe it scrolls the truisms that are listed in your link. I am not sure if the list of truisms in the link is comprehensive, but I see the F word used only once, and don't see the word sh*t at all. Do you know of any other series from Holzer that involves references to rape? The only one I found with a super quick google search was Lustmord.

But it looks like she created that work after 1990, so perhaps it's not included.

[Green_Tea]

This is what made me think that it could have had excerpts from Lustmord (not all of it): "In 1990 the Museum of Fine Arts commissioned Holzer to create this LED sign for the collection. The artist chose to include excerpts from seven different series created between 1977 and 1990, each selection appearing in a different typeface and format."

Do you know of any other series from Holzer that involves references to rape? The only one I found with a super quick google search was Lustmord.

I'm not sure about other references to rape, but I think you could be right that the marquee contains excerpts from Lustmord. That seems the most likely scenario.

ETA: Just saw that Lustmord was created post 1990, so I'm not sure.

[justlearning]

I'm not sure about other references to rape, but I think you could be right that the marquee contains excerpts from Lustmord. That seems the most likely scenario.

ETA: Just saw that Lustmord was created post 1990, so I'm not sure.

Yes, I saw that too so I edited my post while you were typing yours.

Perhaps the OP could ask if they've made any changes to the exhibit since 1990? Maybe they've added excerpts from more recent works of hers?

[Melbel]

It sounds as though the marquee displays a great deal of text, and that only some of it contains words that people might find offensive. I've been to the MFA several times and never even noticed the marquee, and apparently it's been there for 20 years. Even the OP says she's never seen offensive text displayed. Short of standing in front of the marquee for as long as it takes to see every bit of text, how could the teachers planning the trip have known? I'd hate to see some poor teacher who was trying to give his or her students a positive art experience reprimanded for something they could not have known would happen.

Considering that there is a known, foreseeable risk that there will be material on display at an art museum that may be deemed inappropriate for children, I absolutely would hold the art teacher who planned the field trip at least partly responsible. I do not think it is unreasonable at all to expect the art teacher to perform a little due diligence in advance. If individual parents choose to expose their own children to graphic sex and rape at whatever age, fine. These topics should not be thrust children on a school field trip without parents' knowledge or consent. In light of the degree in which the OP's daughter was impacted, it certainly did not appear to be simply a cursory flash of the f word or sh**.

[Green_Tea]

If individual parents choose to expose their own children to graphic sex and rape at whatever age, fine. These topics should not be thrust children on a school field trip without parents' knowledge or consent. In light of the degree in which the OP's daughter was impacted, it certainly did not appear to be simply a cursory flash of the f word or sh**.

I am baffled by several references in this thread to graphic sex and rape. We're talking about text, not pictures. Certainly text can be graphic, but it's not like they had display of Hustler centerfolds up.

[Melbel]

I am baffled by several references in this thread to graphic sex and rape. We're talking about text, not pictures. Certainly text can be graphic, but it's not like they had display of Hustler centerfolds up.

The OP used the word graphic 4x (twice in OP and twice in update). Since her daughter is the one who saw the display and conveyed its content to the OP, I trusted her description. Perhaps a better word would be explicit. Then again, words can in fact convey images (ETA: if this were not the case, it would not be "art").

[Kindra178]

I am baffled by several references in this thread to graphic sex and rape. We're talking about text, not pictures. Certainly text can be graphic, but it's not like they had display of Hustler centerfolds up.

I am really glad you pointed that out. Without looking into the artist's work, one might think otherwise by reading these posts.

[Green_Tea]

Considering that there is a known, foreseeable risk that there will be material on display at an art museum that may be deemed inappropriate for children, I absolutely would hold the art teacher who planned the field trip at least partly responsible. I do not think it is unreasonable at all to expect the art teacher to perform a little due diligence in advance. If individual parents choose to expose their own children to graphic sex and rape at whatever age, fine. These topics should not be thrust children on a school field trip without parents' knowledge or consent. In light of the degree in which the OP's daughter was impacted, it certainly did not appear to be simply a cursory flash of the f word or sh**.

I'm sorry, I am sure I appear to be beating a dead horse, but again - even the OP says she never saw anything profane displayed on the marquee in question. The art teacher is not psychic. The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston is one of the best museums in the world. It's up there with the Met and the Art Institute of Chicago. Perhaps 5th graders should have field trips to ANY art museums.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Considering that there is a known, foreseeable risk that there will be material on display at an art museum that may be deemed inappropriate for children, I absolutely would hold the art teacher who planned the field trip at least partly responsible. I do not think it is unreasonable at all to expect the art teacher to perform a little due diligence in advance. If individual parents choose to expose their own children to graphic sex and rape at whatever age, fine. These topics should not be thrust children on a school field trip without parents' knowledge or consent. In light of the degree in which the OP's daughter was impacted, it certainly did not appear to be simply a cursory flash of the f word or sh**.

I have been to the MFA at least 4 times, and am sure i noticed this marquee, but for sure never saw anything profane/sexual on it. it's entirely possible that out of the 100 lines or so there were maybe 3 that contained profanity and/or reference to sex/rape and that is the ones that the OP's daughter and classmates happened to see. Even the OP mentioned that she has been to MFA and never saw anything like that on the marquee. So I think it's unreasonable to blame a teacher for not knowing about something like this. It sounds like after the OP pointed it out, the teacher did work to contact the MFA and figure out what was going on, and it does sound like trying to figure out exactly what the text said (like the OP mentioned she is doing) which seems the best thing she can do, so she can try to explain it to her DD. But to blame the teacher for this incident seems a little extreme...not sure what else she could have done. I'm sure the teacher probably made sure not to take students to tour sections that may have nudity or whatever, but not sure what else she could have done.

[TwinFoxes]

The OP used the word graphic 4x (twice in OP and twice in update). Since her daughter is the one who saw the display and conveyed its content to the OP, I trusted her description. Perhaps a better word would be explicit. Then again, words can in fact convey images (ETA: if this were not the case, it would not be "art").

It was actually the other teacher who wrote "graphic" in an email quoting a friend who works at MFA, not OPs DD (according to the post). So third hand. If you look at the marquee exhibit, it really does seem like fleeting words. For all we know it said "rape is bad" which I wouldn't call a graphic depiction of sex. There are several YouTube videos of similar installations, and they all are short sentences that appear quickly. There aren't graphic descriptions of anything, sexual or otherwise. Most of the stuff is pretty mundane like "potential is nothing until it's fulfilled" or some such. Just short sentences.

I think a lot of this boils down to how we read the OP. it my imagination it was fleeting words on a screen. But I think a lot of people imagined the text of a porno movie on a huge billboard.

Or maybe people think the very word rape should not ever be seen by kids.

[sste]

OK, I am the lady reading aloud to her kids to the point of voice loss and turning faintly green with kale consumption these days . . . but this would not hugely bother me on either the part of the teacher or the museum.

OP, this is meant gently but an art museum having provocative and graphic art is not a new thing - - it is expected and it is a staple at every major US art museum I have been to that curates modern art. So, really I think it is the parents' responsibility if they have particular concerns. The fact that they were going to this art museum was akin to them going to a pg-13 movie - - one should expect in advance some amount of material of a graphic nature. It may be fine with some parents but not the right choice for every family - - which is why individual parents should make the decision not the school.

I also suspect that your daughter was so deeply affected not just by the art but by the fact that she is right at the cusp of puberty and these words and issues and acts are on her mind as she is sorting out the world. I suspect that is the reason why so many other posters say they have walked right past this and haven't not noticed it. I remember my own puberty and pre-puberty and it was like anything of a sexual nature was in stereo sound, lit up in lights in my perceptions! :) I think it was disturbing to your daughter as much because growing up is hard as anything to do with the particular art exhibit.

[justlearning]

it my imagination it was fleeting words on a screen. But I think a lot of people imagined the text of a porno movie on a huge billboard. Or maybe people think the very word rape should not ever be seen by kids.

Out of curiosity, did you read the text of her work in the link I provided? In her Lustmord work, her text is very graphic and is not just using the word like "rape is bad." So even though most of her work could be shown in public without causing a stir, not everything is like that. I think it all boils down to finding out what was scrolling that day when the OP's class was there.

[TwinFoxes]

Out of curiosity, did you read the text of her work in the link I provided? In her Lustmord work, her text is very graphic and is not just using the word like "rape is bad." So even though most of her work could be shown in public without causing a stir, not everything is like that. I think it all boils down to finding out what was scrolling that day when the OP's class was there.

No, I looked at several videos of her scrolling work, not the stuff you linked to since you said it was created after this work was installed. I think once art is installed, it's uncommon for an artist to go back and add stuff, but maybe she did.

[Kindra178]

I don't believe that Lustmord is on display in the lobby of the MFA. I'd remember that. I think it is a marquee like the one TwinFoxes linked to. I believe it scrolls the truisms that are listed in your link. I am not sure if the list of truisms in the link is comprehensive, but I see the F word used only once, and don't see the word sh*t at all.

I just searched the collections at MFA and came up with this. Lustmord is not included.

http://www.mfa.org/search/collections?keyword=holzer

[justlearning]

I just searched the collections at MFA and came up with this. Lustmord is not included.

http://www.mfa.org/search/collections?keyword=holzer

Well, then, it's hard to figure out what her daughter could have actually read. But here are a few of Holzer's quotes I found from those series listed that could potentially disturb a child. So perhaps there are more like these from those series that are part of the exhibit:

http://www.skarstedt.com/exhibitions/2010-11-04_jenny-holzer/#/images/8/
http://www.skarstedt.com/exhibitions/2010-11-04_jenny-holzer/#/images/28/
http://www.skarstedt.com/exhibitions/2010-11-04_jenny-holzer/#/images/27/
http://www.skarstedt.com/exhibitions/2010-11-04_jenny-holzer/#/images/29/

ETA that in looking at her work, I do really like a lot of her quotes and most of them are tame. This is one of my favorites: DISORGANIZATION IS A KIND OF ANESTHESIA.

[buddyleebaby]

I am baffled by several references in this thread to graphic sex and rape. We're talking about text, not pictures. Certainly text can be graphic, but it's not like they had display of Hustler centerfolds up.

Assuming there was a piece that exhibited graphic rape imagery, it would not make a difference to me whether it was done through text or photos or paintings- I would not think it an appropriate choice for a class trip.

That being said, it doesn't sound as if *this* piece falls into that category.

[kijip]

But it's not a public place.

I'm not even saying it's a good idea for the MFA to display it, but it's an art museum. It's a private institution. The installation has been there 20 years. It's not like one day you show up at school and someone's parked it on the lawn. If I'm remembering correctly, the lobby is pretty huge. Now that the teacher's are aware, they can steer the kids away from what looks like a pretty small exhibit (in comparison to the rest of the lobby).

I do think the OP and any other parent should let their dissatisfaction be known. Just as it's the museum's right to display it, it's her/their right to let them know think it's inappropriate, and perhaps the museum can can think of a way of minimizing kids' exposure to it.

:yeahthat:

In 20 years up, I am sure that many other children have seen it. Some of their parents may have complained- I would assume so anyways. Yet it remains. I am not sure if complaints now would make the institution change course. The vast majority of museum funding comes from individual donors.

I read Beloved, which is more explicit than this display, at age 10 or 11. Given the safety and stranger avoidance most kids are taught at very young ages, I don't think that many 5th and 6th graders are living unaware of sexual violence at least in the most basic of terms.

[tribe pride]

I read Beloved, which is more explicit than this display, at age 10 or 11. Given the safety and stranger avoidance most kids are taught at very young ages, I don't think that many 5th and 6th graders are living unaware of sexual violence at least in the most basic of terms.

Interesting. I read Beloved in college, and completely missed most of the sexual explicitness and violence in the book. Which sounds crazy, as it's pretty much central to the entire plot. But I was just very confused about what was going on. I read it again last year, really liked it, and had this "ah ha" moment when I finally realized what was going on and why everyone considers it such a powerful book.

Which I guess goes to show how everyone's experience/upbringing/etc. shapes their perception of how and at what age it is appropriate for children to be introduced to this stuff. When I was 10, I'm pretty sure I had never heard the f word, and I don't think I knew what rape was. I was never allowed to read teen or pre-teen magazines or watch prime-time tv, my parents didn't swear in front of us, etc. So my exposure to things like sex, rape, and cuss words was very limited. If I had been in the OP's DD's shoes, I would have been pretty upset, too.

I think it is important to try and protect children from exhibits like in this art gallery. I agree that the art teacher probably should have been aware that the kids might have been exposed to something like this and informed parents of that possibility. And personally, I don't think that 10 year olds should be taken to something that could be rated PG-13 (to quote a PP, I forget who) , especially without parental warning or consent. Those ratings are there for a reason, and it's to protect kids from being exposed to something they're not ready to handle.

Apparently I led a rather sheltered life by today's standards. But I don't necessarily think that's always a bad thing. OP has every right to be upset about this whole situation, whether it's with the museum or the school. I certainly would be!

[oneplustwo]

Finally had a chance to check back in. Again, I really do appreciate all the thoughts and comments. I'm also happy to see there are other moms who research stuff to death. :rotflmao: I'm waiting for the museum to get back to me about exactly what text appears so that I can better figure out what DD saw and better discuss it with her. I'm also going to talk to a couple of other parents whose kids DD said also saw some of the text about sex and the swear words to see what we can piece together. I'll be following up with DD's teacher, probably next week. Again, the swear words aren't so much of concern ~ although it has meant some long conversations with DD who can't wrap her mind around why a respected museum that expects a certain amount of decorum from young visitors would display these words, and why any place would use them when they are ugly and it's been drilled into her that they are inappropriate language. (I've been talking with her about how some people ~ artists, etc. ~ want to shock and provoke their audience.)

Trying to address some things that have come up, but quickly as I need to put DD to bed ~ yes, this is just text, no pictures. From DD I understood that there were phrases about men and women flirting, stuff about sex, f*** and sh**. From the contact at the museum who spoke to DD's school, came the explanation that the marquee contains the word s*** and "graphic talk of rape and sex" (that was the school teacher summarizing her conversation with her museum contact, so it is second hand ~ and yes, perhaps the word explicit would be more apt). From that I decided to contact the museum to find out more and also express that I was upset.

I have seen the marquee when I've been in the museum and have never seen the text DD talked about. Then again, I have never stood there till all the text has scrolled by (as someone upthread mentioned, that might be a loooong time). I am also very curious if this issue has come up before with anyone, since it looks like this exhibit has been there over 20 years. I can't imagine it hasn't, which makes me all the more curious.

[kijip]

When I was 10, I'm pretty sure I had never heard the f word, and I don't think I knew what rape was. I was never allowed to read teen or pre-teen magazines or watch prime-time tv, my parents didn't swear in front of us, etc. So my exposure to things like sex, rape, and cuss words was very limited. If I had been in the OP's DD's shoes, I would have been pretty upset, too.

I don't really understand this because if someone has literally never heard these terms before, wouldn't they be meaningless words on a screen? Maybe they would prompt some questions (which the parent have the right to answer with non-answers) but not upsetting in and of themselves. They are only upsetting terms if someone has an understanding of how negative they are, right?

[tribe pride]

I don't really understand this because if someone has literally never heard these terms before, wouldn't they be meaningless words on a screen? Maybe they would prompt some questions (which the parent have the right to answer with non-answers) but not upsetting in and of themselves. They are only upsetting terms if someone has an understanding of how negative they are, right?

Well, I suppose that yes, if you don't know what the words mean at all, then yes, they're not inherently upsetting in and of themselves. If you don't know what it means, then it can't bother you. But if the kids were reading the words and then discussing them amongst themselves, the words would no longer be meaningless. Those children with an understanding of the words/phrases/actions being described would likely share those with the other children, and who knows how accurate or appropriate that information would be. I could totally see some children with no prior knowledge of such things being confused and upset. I guess that's more what I was thinking, if that makes sense.

[Uno-Mom]

OK, I am the lady reading aloud to her kids to the point of voice loss and turning faintly green with kale consumption these days . . . but this would not hugely bother me on either the part of the teacher or the museum.

...

I also suspect that your daughter was so deeply affected not just by the art but by the fact that she is right at the cusp of puberty and these words and issues and acts are on her mind as she is sorting out the world. I suspect that is the reason why so many other posters say they have walked right past this and haven't not noticed it. I remember my own puberty and pre-puberty and it was like anything of a sexual nature was in stereo sound, lit up in lights in my perceptions! :) I think it was disturbing to your daughter as much because growing up is hard as anything to do with the particular art exhibit.
Interesting thread. I'm not going to chime in again but...just thought I'd give sste a shout out because I think these observations are insightful and deserved quoting. :)

[randomkid]

I understand why you are outraged on behalf of the OP. I am thrilled that this art inspired conversation between mom and daughter. I am disappointed that the teachers could have used this as a learning opportunity and then punted.

I wonder if your outrage is coming as a mom of a 5 or 6 year old. Sex in general is or will be in short order a hot topic in the ten year old crowd. Sexual violence is an aspect of sex that needs to be addressed. Obviously, the discussion with a ten year old is different than with a fourteen year old. Frankly, I would work with the school, teachers, social workers and principal on a special assembly addressing this in a unified way.

I am not thrilled that this "inspired" conversation between the OP and her DD, and she obviously is not either. It is more like damage control and not a productive conversation. Her DD was apparently very disturbed by it. The problem here is not the topic itself, but how the children were exposed to it. Honestly, if I am going to have a conversation with my child about sex and rape, then I want it to be on my terms and presented in an appropriate manner. These kids (and teachers) were completely caught off guard. The kids went on to talk about it themselves without adults present. Besides, if my child is going to be exposed to a subject that sensitive, then *I* want to be there and be the one talking to her about it, not a teacher. These days, teachers have to be very careful what they talk to students about. Some parents would likely be extremely upset about a teacher leading a discussion with students about sex and rape. It could even lead to a teacher being fired or disciplined. I do not fault the teachers AT ALL for simply distracting the kids and getting them out of there. I am proud of the OP's DD for bringing it to their attention.

I do think the museum should be the responsible party here. If it is a large museum, there is no way the teachers could research every aspect of it before a field trip. It is poor judgement and in poor taste for the museum to have such a graphic display in such a public area. Besides, does anyone else not see this as art? Really, a bunch of phrases on a marquee doesn't scream art to me.

I'm with the OP - I'd be pissed.

[kijip]

It is poor judgement and in poor taste for the museum to have such a graphic display in such a public area. Besides, does anyone else not see this as art? Really, a bunch of phrases on a marquee doesn't scream art to me.



It has been in the MFA for 20 years. I would daresay that the curators and director would not have it there if they did not think it was art.

Besides text is by definition not graphic. Or else a graphic novel would not need pictures.

[TwinFoxes]

Trying to address some things that have come up, but quickly as I need to put DD to bed ~ yes, this is just text, no pictures. From DD I understood that there were phrases about men and women flirting, stuff about sex, f*** and sh**. From the contact at the museum who spoke to DD's school, came the explanation that the marquee contains the word s*** and "graphic talk of rape and sex" (that was the school teacher summarizing her conversation with her museum contact, so it is second hand ~ and yes, perhaps the word explicit would be more apt). From that I decided to contact the museum to find out more and also express that I was upset.


I am glad at least your daughter apparently didn't see references to rape. It will be very interesting to see what the museum says regarding the text. Did the other parents complain as well? Maybe if enough do, the museum will inform teachers that school groups might want to avoid that part of the lobby, which might work since the lobby is so large.

Keep us posted. :)