Where do you start?

[hillview]

DS2 is a handful -- he is 4.5. This is not new. I am losing my ability to handle him. He hits, pinches, kicks, tips tables, throws things at me or others. He says stupid mommy, idiot mommy, and on and on. No amount of time outs, sent to his room, removal of toys, no TV manages this. He seeks negative attention. Starts fights with DS1, with the dog and with me.

This morning it was him not wanting a coat or sweatshirt (I was not making him wear it just taking it to school) and he pitched a total fit. Ok fine. After 10 mins of trying to get him to buckle himself into his car sear (or me doing it) we went to school. He refused to hold my hand crossing the street so I took his wrist and he flipped out and tried run into the street. I picked him up and took him across the street. He kept flipping out (hitting scratching trying to get away and RUN BACK INTO THE STREET) so I carried him into school. As soon as we got into school he was fine.

This is my life every single day. He has epic meltdowns and often. It is impacting my life in a negative way. I am not as good a parent as I want to be and it is impacting my relationship with DH and DS1 as well.

So what do I do? I have a teacher meeting next week and I told the teacher this morning I wanted to discuss DS2's behavior with her. I feel like I need an evaluation or some parenting class for kids like this or SOMETHING.

Please advise. I am posting here because to me this seems OFF. It just isn't in the normal range for me. DS1 has his moments however nothing as sustained as this and nothing that I couldn't eventually come up with a plan and figure out.

[elliput]

:hug::hug::hug: I'm sorry. Your DS sounds like a very intelligent, strong willed boy who is looking to express his independence.

Have you read any of the Positive Discipline books? The authors talk about what they call "Misguided Behaviors" and how to deal with them. http://www.positivediscipline.com/

[hillview]

ETA Erica I re-read what I wrote and I don't mean to be defensive! Thanks for your feedback and book suggestion.

:hug::hug::hug: I'm sorry. Your DS sounds like a very intelligent, strong willed boy who is looking to express his independence.

Have you read any of the Positive Discipline books? The authors talk about what they call "Misguided Behaviors" and how to deal with them. http://www.positivediscipline.com/

Thanks I have ordered it. I have "easy to love difficult to discipline" and about 5 others that I have read over the years. I do give choices (this morning: do you want your coat or your sweater for school; do you want to walk across the street holding hands or do you want me to carry you; do you want to buckle yourself in or have mommy do it; at breakfast do you want toast or oatmeal). I do not force kids to eat -- if you are done; you are done. I considered letting him go without a coat but it was 37 degrees and I was not sure if the teacher would let him go to recess without a coat (I guess I could have let that played out maybe I should have?). Crossing the street is not negotiable for me but he did have a choice of holding hands or being carried. DS1 DID get to cross himself at the cross walk after looking both ways and asking me if it was ok. I get that this feels unfair to DS2. Frankly if DS2 had been in his seat properly and we'd have been at school on time or if DS2 was not throwing a fit, DS1 would have walked with us.

[Clarity]

:22: I've struggled parenting our dd1 too. She's very bright and very stubborn and we've had some epic meltdowns. At our worse (about 3.5yo - 4.5yo) I asked the director of her preschool for a psych referral. We have a 100% child centered counseling center in our community and that is where I was referred. When I contacted the counseling center, they actually did not set me up with a counselor at first, they routed me through their parenting course that they offer free of charge to the community. They actually provided free childcare during the classes to make it easier for us to attend. It's a great program and what's more, it helps connect you directly to the resources if you need more help that that parenting class can provide.
Have you checked for a child-centered counseling center w/n driving distance from you? They may have a similar program.

It's so hard, I know it is. Even now when dd1 is not quite as challenging as she was a year ago, parenting her is still 5x as hard as it is to parent our dd2 who is spunky but much more easy going. I often feel like a failure as a parent because I lose my temper in response to dd1's behavior way more often than I'd like. :( I was lamenting this just yesterday. Good luck, mama.

[hellokitty]

How is he at school though? I ask, b/c DS2 and DS3 are very similar. They give ME a hard time, but around other ppl, they are angels. If he isn't giving the teacher a hard time at school, I'm not sure that they will understand where you are coming from, kwim?

I do have lots of sympathy for you though. It's hard to have an extremely strong willed child. I just keep telling myself that it's a sign that they are really smart, lol. I hope you can figure out what he needs. I do feel that DS2, who is now 6 has improved a LOT in this dept, so I'm hoping for you that things will get better in the next two yrs as he gets older. DS3 right now is my difficult one, but then he's 2.5 yrs old, but reminds me a lot of DS2, so I know that the next 3 yrs are going to suck.

[hillview]

:22: I've struggled parenting our dd1 too. She's very bright and very stubborn and we've had some epic meltdowns. At our worse (about 3.5yo - 4.5yo) I asked the director of her preschool for a psych referral. We have a 100% child centered counseling center in our community and that is where I was referred. When I contacted the counseling center, they actually did not set me up with a counselor at first, they routed me through their parenting course that they offer free of charge to the community. They actually provided free childcare during the classes to make it easier for us to attend. It's a great program and what's more, it helps connect you directly to the resources if you need more help that that parenting class can provide.
Have you checked for a child-centered counseling center w/n driving distance from you? They may have a similar program.

It's so hard, I know it is. Even now when dd1 is not quite as challenging as she was a year ago, parenting her is still 5x as hard as it is to parent our dd2 who is spunky but much more easy going. I often feel like a failure as a parent because I lose my temper in response to dd1's behavior way more often than I'd like. :( I was lamenting this just yesterday. Good luck, mama.
Thanks! I just called my pedi thearpist to see if she can work me in. It does help to hear from others so thanks again.


How is he at school though? I ask, b/c DS2 and DS3 are very similar. They give ME a hard time, but around other ppl, they are angels. If he isn't giving the teacher a hard time at school, I'm not sure that they will understand where you are coming from, kwim?

I do have lots of sympathy for you though. It's hard to have an extremely strong willed child. I just keep telling myself that it's a sign that they are really smart, lol. I hope you can figure out what he needs. I do feel that DS2, who is now 6 has improved a LOT in this dept, so I'm hoping for you that things will get better in the next two yrs as he gets older. DS3 right now is my difficult one, but then he's 2.5 yrs old, but reminds me a lot of DS2, so I know that the next 3 yrs are going to suck.
Yeah I am going to ask the teachers about this next week. I HAVE to assume he is NOT like that at school or they'd be calling me every day! DH says DS2 reminds him of himself at a young age.

I hate that our relationship seems to have deteriorated to this. I honestly some days just look at the clock and say only 2 more hours of this. I don't want to parent that way KWIM?

[hellokitty]

Thanks! I just called my pedi thearpist to see if she can work me in. It does help to hear from others so thanks again.


Yeah I am going to ask the teachers about this next week. I HAVE to assume he is NOT like that at school or they'd be calling me every day! DH says DS2 reminds him of himself at a young age.

I hate that our relationship seems to have deteriorated to this. I honestly some days just look at the clock and say only 2 more hours of this. I don't want to parent that way KWIM?

Lol, don't you just love your DH's genes for this? Yeah, DS2 and DS3 take after my DH's side of the family, they are mini-me's of my 10 yr old niece. We saw her act just like this when she was younger and thought, oh our kids won't be that rotten. Well, now we have two rotten ones just like her (ds1 is very well behaved, which is more typical of my genes, my brothers and I were all pretty mild manner kids), even though we parent differently from bil/sil, the nature part seems to be winning. Whenever I meet with DS2's teachers (he's 6 and in kindergarten, but had two yrs of preschool), I am always shocked at what nice things they have to say about him (and DH has seen DS2 kissing brown nosing his teachers and told me I have to tell the teacher that he is not like that at home, lol) and in return, they are always shocked that *I* am shocked and find it strange when I describe to them the way he acts at home to our own family. Like they can't imagine him being badly behaved. The same goes with DS3. I have friends who comment that he is so sweet, but OMG he is soooo difficult when it's just our immediate family members around. Idk what it is about kids who know how to let their stinky side out when they are at home, but put on a totally different personality while out in public... kind of scary that they can manipulate things so much, kwim? Which is why I mention that they must be super smart to be able to control that. It just sucks that we are on the receiving end of the bad behavior, while others get the good behavior. I hope you have some luck with the therapist. For me, I know that there is a genetic component to it, so I haven't bothered to seek therapy (although having some wine at dinner time helps a LOT!), but I totally get you on counting down the hours until bedtime, esp now that DS3 has decided he's no longer going to nap, I feel as tired as I did when he was a newborn.

[o_mom]

It seems to me like it has been going on long enough to not be 'just a phase'. I would ask your ped for a referral to a therapist. It doesn't mean you have to get a diagnosis or medication, they can help without that. I think looking for somewhere that has a mix of MDs, PhDs and LCSW/LMHCs would be a good start so that if you do need more than just counselling you don't have to start over somewhere else.

[hillview]

It seems to me like it has been going on long enough to not be 'just a phase'. I would ask your ped for a referral to a therapist. It doesn't mean you have to get a diagnosis or medication, they can help without that. I think looking for somewhere that has a mix of MDs, PhDs and LCSW/LMHCs would be a good start so that if you do need more than just counselling you don't have to start over somewhere else.

Thanks -- your PM got me thinking. I called my child psych person who I have known for years and years to start with her. She can refer me to the right places I think. Thanks:heartbeat:

[Pepper]

You probably don't want another book rec, but - have you looked at "The Explosive Child"? The frequency and duration of "explosions" that you describe for your DS might fit for that approach.

My DS1 is also frequently aggressive/violent, though the reasons why have changed over the years. I am beginning to understand, though, that he is just an extreme kid, he has a limited range of responses, and so extreme anger is where he goes for many different reasons (upset, frustration, and regular anger...).

Agree with talking to the teacher about how he is at school, in the classroom and at less structured times too. Try a few visits/meetings with the counselor, and then maybe think about a visit with a developmental pediatrician? Or whatever other professional is easiest to access with your health insurance? We waited 18 months to get in for an extensive developmental eval through a different health system, but our pedi office gave us a referral to the devel ped in their practice and we only waited 3 months.

HTH

[lowrioh]

I can totally empathize with you. DD1 has behaved exactly like your DS in the past and I'm sure she will do it again in the future. It is physically and emotionally draining and we were on the verge of going for counseling.
She has been doing a lot better recently and the only thing I can attribute it to (besides her getting older) is that I have been making a very conscious effort to spend one on one time with her without any distractions. This was very, very difficult for me at first because frankly, I didn't like her very much. I had extreme guilt about disliking her and knew I needed to make a change. If this isn't something you and/or your DH has tried it might be worth giving it a shot. I usually just go down in the family room as soon as I get home from work and spend 30 min playing with her while DH gets dinner on the table.

[elliput]

ETA Erica I re-read what I wrote and I don't mean to be defensive! Thanks for your feedback and book suggestion.

I did not take your response to be defensive at all. Figuring out how to deal with a challenging child is like trying to skeet shoot while standing in a row boat in rough water. Getting it right is more dumb luck than skill. :wink2:

[hillview]

Ok so a couple of points.

DS's teacher sent home a form to get permission to eval him in class. This is after I mentioned to her at drop off that I'd like to talk about his behavior at our meeting next week. So that seems interesting to me. I have emailed her to ask what sort of eval she had in mind (and thanks blah blah).

Tonight I tried REALLY really REALLY hard not to react much to his behavior. I gave him 100s of choices. Do you want to turn off the light or me to? Do you want to brush your teeth here or in my bathroom? Do you want to wear these PJs or those? And on and on. When he threw his keyboard I simply said that I hoped it didn't break and continued upstairs. When he hit me while we were reading I put that book down and moved on to the 2nd book (and he pitched a total fit) and I simply told him I couldn't keep reading the first book because it hurt my mouth (where he hit me ) -- I get that this is not TOTAL natural consequences but I was really trying.

So did it work? Well there was slightly less drama and I was slightly less engaged in all the issues (less emotional).

You are all so sweet for your help and "listening" to me. Man being a parent is hard.

[hillview]

So his teacher replied
"I talked to [special ed teacher] today about your concern about DS2. We have seen DS2w pregressing academically and he has improved his ability to sit in circle from the begining of the school year, however we find him sometimes wondering the room and with some difficulty following instructions. I am a strong beliver of listening to parents when they want help finding out patterns in their kids development. [Special ed teacher] is the school specialist that has a free time on monday to do an informal observation of DS2 in the classroom. I find this observation can help us plan a better curriculum for DS2."

Should I try to interpret this? Difficulty following instructions. Wandering the room. Thoughts?

[jren]

I would let them observe him. It can't hurt. FWIW, irritability and aggression can be seen in kids with ADHD, but I would think 4 1/2 would be young for that dx unless you were seeing other clear signs.

My DD has a mood disorder. There's something called PMT (parent management training) that you may want to look into. It was recommended to us by DD's neuropsychologist. I think it's one on one with a psychologist who would train us in how to deal with DD's behavior. With an oppositional child, some of the regular parenting strategies can backfire and make things worse. So we need new ways to deal with things. I'm really looking forward to getting some real help. I've read tons of books but it's really difficult to implement any drastic changes just from reading.

For example... I'm supposed to show NO emotion when dealing with DD when she's in her "mood". No facial expressions that could be misinterpreted. The counselor will practice this with me.

One thing that I'm doing right now is I have dropped all other requirements except one, and we are working on that for now. I have a chart with stickers that will reward her with a treat when it's full (36 spots). She gets a sticker every time she controls her temper in a situation that would normally have caused her to lose it (with is pretty much everything). She got 6 stickers in the first 2 hours of the program, which was HUGE! If she loses control, I am to completely ignore it - walk away and give it no attention. Lots of praise and the sticker for the least little improvement. Sometimes I give her a sticker for only slightly losing it, but regaining self control. It's actually working pretty good for now. Of course, we have also upped her meds!

Now that is what I'm supposed to do, but I do still lose my temper when she's raging. It's just really hard to be an emotional brick wall in the midst of hour 12 of a temper tantrum in an 8 year old.

[hellokitty]

So his teacher replied
"I talked to [special ed teacher] today about your concern about DS2. We have seen DS2w pregressing academically and he has improved his ability to sit in circle from the begining of the school year, however we find him sometimes wondering the room and with some difficulty following instructions. I am a strong beliver of listening to parents when they want help finding out patterns in their kids development. [Special ed teacher] is the school specialist that has a free time on monday to do an informal observation of DS2 in the classroom. I find this observation can help us plan a better curriculum for DS2."

Should I try to interpret this? Difficulty following instructions. Wandering the room. Thoughts?

Hmmm, I interpret it to mean that she thinks that you have concerns, so they will do an evaluation to see what the specialist thinks. I think that is good of her to work with you. As for the wandering and not following directions, I think that is pretty typical for boys that age. Good luck with the eval! And yes, parenting is HARD! Harder than any paid job I've ever had!

[Elilly]

Just another angle here, and I could be totally off base, but wanted to share...... Refusing to put on a coat, not wanting to hold hands, "needing" to hit or do things with force, etc. sounds like a sensory issue to me. JMHO. Do you have a mini trampoline in your house? Rather than time outs for off behavior, we used to send DS to his tramp and have him jump for two minutes. He also received a punching bag for Christmas as another positive manner for him to get sensory input when stressed or anxious. When talking about the plan for the day, we would tell DS while he was jumping on his trampoline, this seemed to lessen the combative behavior as well. It wasn't so great having the trampoline in our living room, but we were all a little more clam. Like I said, I may be completely off base here, just trying to help. Hugs mama. By searching for answers, you are doing the right thing for him.

[hillview]

Just another angle here, and I could be totally off base, but wanted to share...... Refusing to put on a coat, not wanting to hold hands, "needing" to hit or do things with force, etc. sounds like a sensory issue to me. JMHO. Do you have a mini trampoline in your house? Rather than time outs for off behavior, we used to send DS to his tramp and have him jump for two minutes. He also received a punching bag for Christmas as another positive manner for him to get sensory input when stressed or anxious. When talking about the plan for the day, we would tell DS while he was jumping on his trampoline, this seemed to lessen the combative behavior as well. It wasn't so great having the trampoline in our living room, but we were all a little more clam. Like I said, I may be completely off base here, just trying to help. Hugs mama. By searching for answers, you are doing the right thing for him.

Ok this is really interesting. He is VERY physical. Runs into you. Head butts into your belly. Jumps on you. I must say gentil 100 times a day. To balance that he is also very snuggly some times and likes touching/kissing.

[Gena]

Ok this is really interesting. He is VERY physical. Runs into you. Head butts into your belly. Jumps on you. I must say gentil 100 times a day. To balance that he is also very snuggly some times and likes touching/kissing.

This totally describes my little guy and for him, these are sensory issues. He CRAVES deep pressure, so he runs and crashes into things/people and loves big snuggly hugs. Some of the things that have helped with this are: weighted vest, weighted blanket, compression shirts, mini-trampoline, heavy work (pushing around laundry baskets of books or blocks), and using the brushing/compression protocal.

I know it may seem strange for me to say that being snuggly and loving hugs is a sensory problem. But when you have a kid who wakes up every 2 hours because he needs a hug, it IS a problem. The weighted blanket provides DS with a constant deep pressure and helps him stay asleep.

I think it's a great idea to have the school's SE teacher observe him. Hopefully the specialist will have some idea and point you in the right direction for resources.

[Elilly]

Just wanted to add that schools, IMHO, aren't always great at diagnosing sensory issues. I would, if you can, seek a private eval with a developmental ped as they often look at more than a school would.

[HIU8]

My DS is totally opposite. He is a HUGE sensory avoider. He hates hugs and kisses and being touched (although he is much better about it now). He also had (and still has to some extent) epic meltdowns. I went about things in a different way (b/c I did not know any better). We started with a social worker to help DH and I parent better. Social worker sent us to a child psych. Child psych said she felt DS's issues were neurological an psychological. Off we went to the OT and finally to a developmental ped. We started at age 3.5 and by age 5.5 DS had an ADHD diagnosis with SPD. Dealing with DS everyday is HARD. Honestly it sucks all of our energy.
I would definitely let them do an informal eval. Depending on what they find I would probably go the next step to a developental ped.

[JTsMom]

It is HARD! No doubt! :hug:

I'm another fan of starting with the dev. ped. after doing it the opposite way. The informal eval certainly couldn't hurt, but I would take what you think applies, and go from there.

I also wanted to add that DS1's sensory issues are really similar to Gena's son's, and my DS also did a lot of the head-butting and crashing. Some proactive roughhousing with DH helps, so does crashing and jumping on the bed. Massage worked for a while, brushing helps some too. He also gets really easily overwhelmed, and when things get to that point, I try to make things as quiet and calm as possible. Sometimes the best thing I can do is to send him into another room, but I have to be clear it's not a timeout, but just a "calm down and regroup" thing. I don't put a time limit, and just kind of let him do his thing.

We've done a lot of experimenting with diet, and I think the Feingold program is an excellent place to start if you have any interest in going that route. (Have we talked about that before? I seem to remember you posting in one of those threads, but can't remember the details. Or maybe I'm imaginging it. lol) That's one thing you can try while you wait for appointments, and it's not as difficult as some might think. Several of us here have had good luck with it.

The techniques jren described are what works here too. I have to be really careful in how I respond, and it has taken me a looong time to figure it out. The conventional techniques really tend to backfire. I have to almost totally avoid any type of punishment, watch the way I use positive reinforcement, and really have to look at my role as a support person, if that makes sense. I have to keep telling myself that he's not doing the things he does b/c he wants to. It's tough though. The fastest way to shut down most meltdowns here is an offer of a hug. It sounds crazy, but a lot of times DS comes accross as angry when really he's sad, scared or embarassed. When it gets through to him that I'm on his side, it's like someone flipped a switch. On the other hand, sometimes he's just an average 6 yr old who's doing something to get a rise out of me, or just b/c he wants to, and it's hard to know when that's really the case, so it's a bit of a guessing game. I still have a LOT to learn, for sure.

[MamaKath]

Ok this is really interesting. He is VERY physical. Runs into you. Head butts into your belly. Jumps on you. I must say gentil 100 times a day. To balance that he is also very snuggly some times and likes touching/kissing.
First off hugs to you! I completely hear you and your frustrations (and have been there)!!! An interesting book (I know a ton have been recommended and you can only read so much but bear with me) is The Sensory Sensitive Child: Practical Solutions for Out of Bounds Behavior. http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=7946880&cm_sp=1rec-_-RHS-_-p1-0 Out of Sync Child (and the others in that series like Out of Sync Child has Fun) is also good for explaining sensory stuff if that is a concern. Most of all I wanted to give you some encouragement. I am not on often these days and am guessing that this process is moving. I hope that you are finding some light to be shed on how to help your ds. :hug:

[sf333]

I just came across this thread and it sounds like it's my DS that you are writing about. He turns 5 in April and we've had behavior and sleep issues since day 1. I've gotten a lot of great ideas from this thread (and others in the SN forum) regarding similar issues. Your success with a weighted blanket makes me want to buy one tonight. My DS is up several times a night, often getting in to bed with us while we sleep. Almost every night, I wake up to find him next to me. Your experience gives me hope.

Did you find that your DS's behavior improved with better sleep? Has he been diagnosed with anything? My DS was evaluated a while ago (maybe 2 yrs ago?) and nothing came of it - no official dx that is, just that he was a challenging child. Since then, we've consulted with a psychologist and she brought up the possibility of ADD but said she wouldn't make that diagnosis at his young age.

Parenting him is the hardest thing I've ever done. Just reading this thread (and others in this forum) are comforting. It feels very isolating, especially when so many friends have "easy" kids.

[LBW]

I can completely sympathize since, to some degree, my youngest was/is like this. He's a little over 5 now, and has improved significantly in the past year. When he was 3-4 years old, I felt like you do now. His behavior affected everyone in the family.

With my son, a lot of it is sensory stuff. We couldn't afford "real" OT, so we did a lot of Little Gym classes and other physical activity. The weighted blanket was a lifesaver because it helped him sleep. Once he was sleeping better, a lot of the angry and impulsive behavior improved.

One suggestion I have for you that I wish someone had told be about is that you can request an evaluation through your public school district. He may qualify for certain services (including OT, depending on your state/district) through them.

Another thought is to switch up which parent does what. Bedtime was extremely difficult for me, so my husband started taking care of it. I would just go to another part of the house. So, maybe have your husband take care of school drop off?

[hillview]

wow old thread. Well fast forward a year and DS2 is much the same. A weighted blanket helped a lot with sleep (a lot better not perfect). Sleep helps to a degree. We are getting him evaluated for ADHD and other behavioral issues. I have the school therapist working with us. I have been observing his class the last 3 weeks (total mess there). So it is still a work in progress!

[inmypjs]

Hope it gets better and that you find more answers. Have you ever looked at the book "The Mislabled Child"? I just had a chance to hear the author, Dr. Brock Eide, speak. It was about dyslexia, but it made me go back and review that book that he and his wife wrote. It's such a great book to help people sort out what is going on. I still find it helpful. One thing that struck me in the book was their assertion that ADHD diagnoses have become more common because that term is "swallowing" more and more symptoms, and that the diagnosis is almost entirely based on observations. They aren't saying no one has ADHD, just that for many kids there are other deeper things going on.