Questions about putting geothermal and greener HVAC choices in new house.

[gatorsmom]

I was hoping you smart moms- particularly the ones with some experience in this area-could help me. We are building a house and we are trying to make smart, cost-conscious choices while leaning toward going as green as possible.

DH and I are really interested in installing geothermal and radiant heat. However, every HVAC contractor in the area is laughing at us, telling us it's not cost efficient because in this area we have access to natural gas. Their reasoning is that the geothermal could not provide for all our heating and cooling needs and that we'd need another back up furnace. Also, we'd have to put in forced air vents for the air conditioning. Apparently, you can chill a radiant floor to cool the room, however, the humidity becomes a very serious problem. By trying to chill a hot house, the humidity can reach near 100%. So, we'd have to do forced air anyway for the cooling bit.

How do you guys with geothermal make it work? Do you have a back-up furnace? Do you have forced- air AC?

Suggestions and insights are totally welcome!

[GvilleGirl]

Are you working with a green builder. My IL built their house with Passive Solar. I can't believe how much that has an affect on their heating/cooling bills. I'm not sure how the costs compare, but could you use a whole house dehumidifier and cool with radiant?

[khm]

I live in Iowa and a growing percentage of new home builders are choosing geothermal. Many of my neighbors have it (homes between new and 7 years old) and am I extremely jealous. Their bills are MUCH MUCH lower, their heat/cooling is much nicer. (It is more of a simple constant temp, no blowing heat/cold then thermostat kicks off, then heat/cold blowing restarts, it kind of just "is" the right temp. Less humidity issues, etc.)

In better economic times, we considered having it retrofitted. I have relatives who retrofitted a new-ish house with it, they are happy with it.

It is not something every HVAC company is "into" however. Some are very nay-say-ish as it is out of their comfort zone I suppose.

There are no contractors with experience at all?

[gatorsmom]

There are no contractors with experience at all?

Yes, there are a few. We just had a local, well-known contractor bid us a system for 4 times the cost of a forced-air system fueled by natural gas. He said, and DH's research has backed this up, that to be energy efficient our house must be well insulated. That means it will be tight. It gets hot and humid here in the summer and humidity in the house will condense causing mold and mildew issues. So, he said we will be better off with a forced air system for cooling.

He said that because we have access to natural gas, our heating and cooling bills will stay low. It is much more cost efficient to put in a furnace that runs on that.

Im frustrated.

[khm]

Yes, there are a few. We just had a local, well-known contractor bid us a system for 4 times the cost of a forced-air system fueled by natural gas. He said, and DH's research has backed this up, that to be energy efficient our house must be well insulated. That means it will be tight. It gets hot and humid here in the summer and humidity in the house will condense causing mold and mildew issues. So, he said we will be better off with a forced air system for cooling.

He said that because we have access to natural gas, our heating and cooling bills will stay low. It is much more cost efficient to put in a furnace that runs on that.

Im frustrated.

Hmm, we get plenty of heat and humidity in my neck of the woods. Plenty!! This is not a concern to the neighbors I have and some of their systems have been in place for going on 8 years or more.

I'm sorry I'm not more help.

Is your husband now on-board with geothermal? I'm wondering if he's made up his mind and his research is fully impartial or if he's more.... looking for reasons to not go with it. ;) (No insult intended!!)

It is a more expensive install, no doubt about that. But everything I've seen and read is only positive for the long haul.

Maybe ask over at Gardenweb? Definitely try another contractor.

[MSWR0319]

We have geothermal with forced air. We just built our house 2.5 years ago. We do have very good insulation and our house is very tight. We live in NE IN and it can be very hot and humid here. We've not had any problems, but I do notice a tad bit of condensation on the window once in awhile. That being said, we LOVE our geothermal. We run totally electric in the whole house and our bill has never been above $300 for about 2700 sq ft. In comparison, we paid about $150 in electric and $100ish for gas in our new 1400 sq ft house we lived in before this house.

ETA we just have the geothermal furnace that blows the air. DH said we have a ground loop geothermal. Not sure what type you're looking into.

[khm]

MSWR0319, when you can geothermal with forced air are you saying your cooling isn't from geothermal, or just that the air from the geothermal is moved through the vents?

My neighbors' systems use vents as in any house, but they are "powered" with the geothermal system. Electricity is used at a slightly higher rate due to this, but is much offset by the lower gas usage.

[MSWR0319]

MSWR0319, when you can geothermal with forced air are you saying your cooling isn't from geothermal, or just that the air from the geothermal is moved through the vents?

My neighbors' systems use vents as in any house, but they are "powered" with the geothermal system. Electricity is used at a slightly higher rate due to this, but is much offset by the lower gas usage.

Cooling is from the geothermal, the air is just forced through the vents. Does this make any sense? I asked DH what we had and this is what he said. We have no gas in our home at all. He called it a geothermal furnace with forced air vents. I can ask him more if anyone has questions. I think it sounds like what your neighbor has without the usage of gas.

[georgiegirl]

I'm in Iowa with geothermal too. It was here when we moved into our house and we replaced the units (we have 2) 2 years ago. The new units are much better than the old ones since they have stages. There is a back up heating system, which often kicks in when it's below 0. Our bills are super low.

[gatorsmom]

Thank you, everyone for your responses. DH wants to go with the system that will be less costly overall. We plan on staying in this house forever. So, even if the system costs a lot upfront he's ok with it if it means smaller bills overall.

I'll check out that website. And I'm going to show him this thread. I may have more questions for you. So, hopefully you guys will check in over the weekend!

[ladysoapmaker]

If they keep finding natural gas deposits, then natural gas will stay low however if fracking is banned or natural gas wells dry up the cost of natural gas will go through the roof.
Yes if you get a natural gas furnace and the cost of natural gas stays low it will be cheaper as long as you have proper insulation. But that isn't guaranteed.

The nice thing about geothermal is that it can preheat the water or air that is being used for the heating and precool the air being used for the cooling. A good system will work like a heat pump but much more efficiently and your over all heating and cooling bills will be less.


Jen

[gatorsmom]

The nice thing about geothermal is that it can preheat the water or air that is being used for the heating and precool the air being used for the cooling. A good system will work like a heat pump but much more efficiently and your over all heating and cooling bills will be less.


Jen

Can you recommend a good system? Because right now, we are having a hard time figuring out how to make it work for us. The contractors divided our house into zones and said we are going to need a furnace, a few air conditioners (total baloney. The house isn't THAT big), and the geothermal heat pump in addition to that. We will also need air vents put in as well as the radiant heat we are hoping for. Also, he said geothermal systems use a ton of electricity and if we had a power outage, a backup generator could never provide enough power for the geothermal system.

Right now, after a little research, DH is leaning toward a system that uses either gas or solar to heat our water which would run through our radiant heat pipes to heat the house and pool (if we put one in) and provide hot water. Essentially it would be like using a hot water heater to heat our house. We are trying to figure out how air conditioning would figure into that.

[gatorsmom]

Cooling is from the geothermal, the air is just forced through the vents. Does this make any sense? I asked DH what we had and this is what he said. We have no gas in our home at all. He called it a geothermal furnace with forced air vents. I can ask him more if anyone has questions. I think it sounds like what your neighbor has without the usage of gas.

Can you find out what kind of furnace you have? I would REALLY, REALLY appreciate it!

[ladysoapmaker]

Can you recommend a good system? Because right now, we are having a hard time figuring out how to make it work for us.

I don't have recommendations for a system, too many factors and it's been a while since I've actually looked at systems.

However take a look at the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association. http://www.igshpa.okstate.edu/ They have a list of installers and designers who could probably give you a better idea of what you need. I have found though that many traditional builders are resisting the idea of any "green" technology.

And another place to look is http://residential.climatemaster.com/contact-us

Jen

[khm]

Also, he said geothermal systems use a ton of electricity and if we had a power outage, a backup generator could never provide enough power for the geothermal system.


They do use more electricity, but "a ton" seems excessive. ;) I think he's just not that into geothermal and his advice is pretty biased. That's fine, hopefully another company is more helpful.

I'm confused about the power issue, if we lose power (with gas), we are out of luck - the blowers can't blow. I'm missing the distinction to geothermal. We recently lost power and had to get buy on our gas fireplace until the power was restored. If you have a generator, no, maybe it can't keep up with regular level 100% heating and cooling, but it can help until power is restored? Having a generator at all is great, we sure don't!

I hope you can find some good local resources, I'm sorry it is so hard!! I agree, start with some national organizations and work you way down. Do you have any other large cities nearby that have an additional pool of contractors. Our neighbor's company has the equipment does the underground work, and they travel pretty far! You don't have to stick with the local locals, hopefully!

[gatorsmom]

They do use more electricity, but "a ton" seems excessive. ;) I think he's just not that into geothermal and his advice is pretty biased. That's fine, hopefully another company is more helpful.

I'm confused about the power issue, if we lose power (with gas), we are out of luck - the blowers can't blow. I'm missing the distinction to geothermal. We recently lost power and had to get buy on our gas fireplace until the power was restored. If you have a generator, no, maybe it can't keep up with regular level 100% heating and cooling, but it can help until power is restored? Having a generator at all is great, we sure don't!

I hope you can find some good local resources, I'm sorry it is so hard!! I agree, start with some national organizations and work you way down. Do you have any other large cities nearby that have an additional pool of contractors. Our neighbor's company has the equipment does the underground work, and they travel pretty far! You don't have to stick with the local locals, hopefully!

Ugh, yeah, it is frustrating. I think they think we are stupid. They presented us a quote for a HVAC system that would cost FOUR time what a regular system would cost. that was the most reputable company in town. Apparently they don't know what the he11 they are doing or they are trying to screw us. Either way, we are really frustrated.

[khm]

Ugh, yeah, it is frustrating. I think they think we are stupid. They presented us a quote for a HVAC system that would cost FOUR time what a regular system would cost. that was the most reputable company in town. Apparently they don't know what the he11 they are doing or they are trying to screw us. Either way, we are really frustrated.

I think they are just not at all interested in geothermal. :/

Can you contact your energy company? Our gas/electric co has really good rebates and stuff for energy efficient upgrades. Anyone at the state level, an agency, etc?

[KLD313]

Ugh, yeah, it is frustrating. I think they think we are stupid. They presented us a quote for a HVAC system that would cost FOUR time what a regular system would cost. that was the most reputable company in town. Apparently they don't know what the he11 they are doing or they are trying to screw us. Either way, we are really frustrated.

They may just not want to do it. I was an HVAC contractor and if there was a job we didn't really want we would often price it out really high and that way if the customer really wanted us to do it it would be worth it to us. I don't know a lot about geothermal or rather I can't remember what I knew but I do know high efficiency equipment is a lot more expensive than baseline products.