do some children do better in a teacher led structured preschool versus a playbased?

[chozen]

and if so what type of child do you think would do better in the (very) structured preschool? i am trying to understand why so many of the preschools i have visited are so very structured, am i missing something? do some children flourish in this setting?

[SnuggleBuggles]

In what way were they very structured? Just trying to place them with my experiences. :)

[sidmand]

The short answer is yes. DS's school was definitely play based rather than academic but it was also very much teacher-led and structured. And he needed that. He needed to know what to expect and when. His teacher remarked that if she ever strayed from the expected schedule he'd be sure to point it out!

Each day started with circle time and then I think they had centers and maybe motor room and lunch and recess followed by the same things in the afternoon. He thrived with that. I think DD would be fine with that but I think she does better in an all day Montessori program. I think that would have been a nightmare for DS.

[chozen]

In what way were they very structured? Just trying to place them with my experiences. :)

going from one activity to the next without any talking etc., sitting on carpet squares for 35min. i am speaking of the preschool i went to on thursday but some many of them have been very much like this. no real socializing or real free time.

[egoldber]

Play based does not mean unstructured. Almost all play-based preschools follow a structure and have a curriculum. But they are based on learning through play, vs. direct, academic learning and seat work.

[chozen]

The short answer is yes. DS's school was definitely play based rather than academic but it was also very much teacher-led and structured. And he needed that. He needed to know what to expect and when. His teacher remarked that if she ever strayed from the expected schedule he'd be sure to point it out!

Each day started with circle time and then I think they had centers and maybe motor room and lunch and recess followed by the same things in the afternoon. He thrived with that. I think DD would be fine with that but I think she does better in an all day Montessori program. I think that would have been a nightmare for DS.

ok, what do you mean by structured? maybe i need a better understanding of what play based is.

[larig]

Play based does not mean unstructured. Almost all play-based preschools follow a structure and have a curriculum. But they are based on learning through play, vs. direct, academic learning and seat work.

:yeahthat:
DS's preschool is play-based but the day has a rhythm and order.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Play based does not mean unstructured. Almost all play-based preschools follow a structure and have a curriculum. But they are based on learning through play, vs. direct, academic learning and seat work.

:yeahthat:

My preschool has a really good curriculum and the day is completely scheduled. But, it doesn't feel like the preschool you described.

[hellokitty]

Play based does not mean unstructured. Almost all play-based preschools follow a structure and have a curriculum. But they are based on learning through play, vs. direct, academic learning and seat work.

:yeahthat:

OP, one of my friends just switched her dd from a very play based preschool (a woman runs it out of her home) this wk to a, traditional preschool. She said her dd wasn't being challenged enough and was bored. The home based preschool wasn't teaching her letters, etc. and was purely a play preschool (which is rare now). My older two both went to structured traditional preschools where they had lots of play, but also some center times to try some activities like counting, writing, fine motor skill type of stuff. Just b/c preschools offer that type of setting, doesn't mean it is overly academic. I loved the program, the teachers were awesome, very gentle, loving and enthusiastic. They had classroom rules to prepare the kids for kindergarten and yes, they learned to count, write their names and to learn their letters. Kindergarten is where they expect kids to learn to read now, the goal is that they should be reading in their kindergarten yr, so that is why preschools have had to change a bit to accommodate this change in the educational system. It doesn't mean it is bad, b/c the preschool is more structured, BUT it is similar to what kindergarten would have been like 20+ yrs ago when we were kids, since kindergarten now has more similarities to what first grade used to be for those of us who grew up in the 70's and 80's.

[chozen]

Play based does not mean unstructured. Almost all play-based preschools follow a structure and have a curriculum. But they are based on learning through play, vs. direct, academic learning and seat work.

can you give me an idea of what kind of play they would use in a playbased preschool. i know this might sound like a stupid question, however i am just trying to gain some understanding. i feel confused right now by this whole preschool search.

[chozen]

:yeahthat:

My preschool has a really good curriculum and the day is completely scheduled. But, it doesn't feel like the preschool you described.

do you think 7-8 20 min. activities is to much for a 3-4 yr. class room? it just feels to me like there is no time to learn its just on to the next thing. i have for some reason been trying to talk myself into liking this one school and i have no idea why.

[wellyes]

DD's play based classroom is, roughly:

20 minutes of "morning meeting "... talk about the weather, what day it is, what month it is, the week's topic (hibernation or sled riding or whatever)

40 minutes of open peer-based play, with stations the kids can chose to play at including the week's craft .

20 minutes directed play to finish up the craft and tie it back to the week's lesson

20 minutes of wash up, snack

40 minutes of gross motor play outside or in the gym

20 minutes of story time, song, circle discussion

[chozen]

DD's play based classroom is, roughly:

20 minutes of "morning meeting "... talk about the weather, what day it is, what month it is, the week's topic (hibernation or sled riding or whatever)

40 minutes of open peer-based play, with stations the kids can chose to play at including the week's craft .

20 minutes directed play to finish up the craft and tie it back to the week's lesson

20 minutes of wash up, snack

40 minutes of gross motor play outside or in the gym

20 minutes of story time, song, circle discussion

this sounds more like what i am looking for, sounds great.

[smilequeen]

Play based preschools are still structured and still teacher led. Preschoolers typically need to have a routine. It's the worksheets and forced stuff that makes an academic preschool a poor choice in the long run.

Kids who need more challenge would probably do better in a child led environment like Montessori or Reggio Emilia.

[Uno-Mom]

What you describe isn't exactly "structure" in my mind-it's just joyless.

Sprog hangs with the preschoolers a lot at her center and I do see a strong structured rhythm but it's fun. For example, they might have goofy songs to mark the transitions or the teacher challenges them to move a certain way (march! Skip! Jump on one foot!). The result is a bunch of little kids transitioning between activities but they're all having fun, including the teachers.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Pp shared a very typical schedule.

Learning can- and does- take place the whole day not just in circle time or when you can see traditional teaching in action.

One thing I have learned is that sometimes the early learning doesn't translate to lasting learning. Ds1 learned his letters in preschool but he didn't really put together what the letters really meant till he was older. So, it can sound impressive when little ones can recite letters and numbers but it may not mean much. I know that doesn't apply to all kids. I just remember being surprised that ds- kind of had to re-learn things in grades k and 1. It just makes me feel like teaching it early isn't that valuable. Exposure is good; read and write with your kids. But the rest will come and click in school. For all but the most rigorous kindergartens, a foundation is what is needed but not a lot more. If the child is from a home with involved parents, odds are good they will thrive. Sorry for that ramble!! Just timely per a discussion I had with my preschool director the other day.

[ett]

Play based preschools are still structured and still teacher led. Preschoolers typically need to have a routine. It's the worksheets and forced stuff that makes an academic preschool a poor choice in the long run.


:yeahthat: You can still get exposure to the academic stuff but it's through play activities. At snack time, the kids may be asked to take 3 square crackers through which they can learn shapes and counting. They may learn their letters by playing with alphabet magnets.

[Uno-Mom]

Pp shared a very typical schedule.

Learning can- and does- take place the whole day not just in circle time or when you can see traditional teaching in action.

One thing I have learned is that sometimes the early learning doesn't translate to lasting learning. Ds1 learned his letters in preschool but he didn't really put together what the letters really meant till he was older. So, it can sound impressive when little ones can recite letters and numbers but it may not mean much. I know that doesn't apply to all kids. I just remember being surprised that ds- kind of had to re-learn things in grades k and 1. It just makes me feel like teaching it early isn't that valuable. Exposure is good; read and write with your kids. But the rest will come and click in school. For all but the most rigorous kindergartens, a foundation is what is needed but not a lot more. If the child is from a home with involved parents, odds are good they will thrive. Sorry for that ramble!! Just timely per a discussion I had with my preschool director the other day.
That's not just a ramble, it was very nicely said! I don't get focused teaching or drilling things for toddlers, I really don't. I know at Sprog's age it must be more about building patterns (aka play!) and learning to make connections than memorizing things.

[erosenst]

Kids who need more challenge would probably do better in a child led environment like Montessori or Reggio Emilia.

Not always...a lot depends on the preschool.

DD went to a play-based preschool/daycare. No worksheets until pre-K, and even then, not a lot of them.

However, there were often 'free choice' centers (ie the kids didn't rotate through all the centers - they could choose which to do, but were limited by the number of spaces at the center) especially in the younger rooms (3's and 4'). During that time, as DD was looking at books and doing 'reading readiness' things, the teachers would help her with early decoding skills - looking at the picture for context, knowing there was a picture of a monkey and looking for the word that started with M, etc. Part of the difference in a play based is that this was totally child led - the entire class wasn't doing at the same time.

Oh - and definitely agree that the good play-based preschools still have structure to the day There are a few that still don't - but I've heard from a number of teachers that the kids who attend those generally struggle, at least for a time, with the transition to K. The 'short' cycle times correspond to the attention spans of most young kids - and in my opinion are more age-appropriate than longer ones. A large part of what they're learning is to be part of a group.

[wellyes]

I don't get the idea of preschoolers who need more challenge. More challenge with what? Learning letters and shapes? Or socially?

[smilequeen]

I don't get the idea of preschoolers who need more challenge. More challenge with what? Learning letters and shapes? Or socially?

You know, all kids are curious about something. Some of them want to learn more than any play based preschool could ever offer. We loved playbased, but this was still the case with my son...learning to read, learning to add and subtract, learning to skip count, learning the countries in Asia. He LOVED that stuff. He was significantly happier in Montessori. That's what I mean. Just because pushing kids to learn is bad for them does not mean that allowing them to learn is bad. I believe completely in child led learning. Some playbased preschools can offer more, but not all.

[egoldber]

I think that play-based is actually better in many respects for academically advanced young kids. A well run play based school should have a broad, experiential based curriculum, where the kids are singing, doing movement, taking walks, all types of art, open ended play centers (blocks, Legos, pretend play, etc.) and lots and lots of outside time.

I think it can be hard for a preschool to meet the academic needs of children in a developmentally appropriate way. Preschoolers can be over the place in terms of development (e.g., a preschool kid who is reading may still not have the fine motor to write letters, etc.). Avoiding the academics almost entirely can often be a better preschool environment for these kids.

[chozen]

The 'short' cycle times correspond to the attention spans of most young kids - and in my opinion are more age-appropriate than longer ones. A large part of what they're learning is to be part of a group.

i understand that some 3-4yr. olds have shorter attention spans but the problem i had with this preschool is that there were to many activities. in the 2 1/2 hr. class they had 8, the kids seemed rushed the whole morning and the teacher was to busy watching the clock to really enjoy her class. i want my dd to be excited to go to school and the only thing she really liked about this class time was playing with play-doh and that only lasted maybe 10min. tops, that was the only free time they had the entire class.

[SnuggleBuggles]

i understand that some 3-4yr. olds have shorter attention spans but the problem i had with this preschool is that there were to many activities. in the 2 1/2 hr. class they had 8, the kids seemed rushed the whole morning and the teacher was to busy watching the clock to really enjoy her class. i want my dd to be excited to go to school and the only thing she really liked about this class time was playing with play-doh and that only lasted maybe 10min. tops, that was the only free time they had the entire class.

Trust us, that school isn't typical and there are much better ones out there. I agree with pp that thought this one sounded joyless.

[smilequeen]

I think that play-based is actually better in many respects for academically advanced young kids. A well run play based school should have a broad, experiential based curriculum, where the kids are singing, doing movement, taking walks, all types of art, open ended play centers (blocks, Legos, pretend play, etc.) and lots and lots of outside time.

I think it can be hard for a preschool to meet the academic needs of children in a developmentally appropriate way. Preschoolers can be over the place in terms of development (e.g., a preschool kid who is reading may still not have the fine motor to write letters, etc.). Avoiding the academics almost entirely can often be a better preschool environment for these kids.

Oh, I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. Playbased and Montessori schools are both well researched and well regarded as the best types of preschool. Developmentally appropriate with excellent outcomes.

I was just saying that if a parent thought their child was bored in playbased school or was actively seeking more knowledge, Montessori or Reggio...child centered, developmentally appropriate, able to meet the needs of a wide range of children is a better alternative to a teacher led, academic based preschool.

We did great in playbased, I would have been fine staying there. Montessori just fits my children better.

[larig]

My research group in grad school studied learning & interaction for people of all ages. We did a lot of analysis of video data in particular. We spent a whole day studying this interaction between 3 kids (age 4) over a tape measure (the retracting kind). they literally performed a scientific experiment to determine how far the tape bounced when let go from different lengths. It was quite elaborate, with the assigning of roles, measuring blocks and making mental note of how many blocks the tape measure moved backward when the kids just let it go. This was data from a play-based coop preschool (it actually impressed me enough to be biased toward selecting coop when we chose for DS). but, this was something the kids set up themselves. THEY were motivated to see what would happen. This kind of thing would happen in our "blocks" area at preschool.

DS's class just finished a month on transportation. Books in library were related. Sensory table had water & boats one week, space ship, Dramatic play was really fun for the kids. Teacher L set up a boat, with net, depth finder (broken), computer keyboards, a bunch of rubber orcas, walkie talkies, life jackets, flashlights, goggles...And we pretended we were marine biologists tagging (with tape) and cleaning up after an oil spill. We collected data by weighing the animals we "caught" on a scale teacher L set up. But with a little adult direction the kids really learned a lot about many things with that little set-up. The next week Teacher L set up an airplane, with luggage, trays for food, cockpit (with steering wheels, headsets), ticket window, baggage tags, tickets...Kids get to "do taking an airplane trip." They learned a whole lot of words and concepts by engaging with them through play.

Reggio is not necessarily any more academic. It is project-based and quite child-centered. Parental involvement and community are key aspects. Reggio has a discovery-based approach/constructivist approach to learning.

[chozen]

Trust us, that school isn't typical and there are much better ones out there. I agree with pp that thought this one sounded joyless.

the director was not there thursday when i took dd in with me to see if it would be a good fit for us. i will need to call her on monday to let her know if we will be to class on tuesday, should i meet with her and talk about my concerns or should i just tell her that it is not going to work out? i guess one reason i am thinking about meeting with her is to ask if this was a typical day , are there always this many activities in such a short time period. i don't know if she plans out the day or if its the teacher.

[wellyes]

You know, all kids are curious about something. Some of them want to learn more than any play based preschool could ever offer. We loved playbased, but this was still the case with my son...learning to read, learning to add and subtract, learning to skip count, learning the countries in Asia. He LOVED that stuff. He was significantly happier in Montessori. That's what I mean. Just because pushing kids to learn is bad for them does not mean that allowing them to learn is bad. I believe completely in child led learning. Some playbased preschools can offer more, but not all.

Not saying this applies to your son - at all. But for us..... I think my daughter would be happier in an academic school, which is one reason we did NOT put her in one. DD is far more comfortable with instructions and learning than social interaction. Letters and reading come easily for her, while she struggles with having to understand and cooperate with her peers. That is why we put her in a play-based school. She's there to work on what she's not as good at. Not that I want to make it hard for her, but seeing the challenges she's faced with peers has been so revealing to me, makes me see what she needs to work on for success in the coming years when schoool may not be so protective and nurturing of all children equally.

[smilequeen]

Not saying this applies to your son - at all. But for us..... I think my daughter would be happier in an academic school, which is one reason we did NOT put her in one. DD is far more comfortable with instructions and learning than social interaction. Letters and reading come easily for her, while she struggles with having to understand and cooperate with her peers. That is why we put her in a play-based school. She's there to work on what she's not as good at. Not that I want to make it hard for her, but seeing the challenges she's faced with peers has been so revealing to me, makes me see what she needs to work on for success in the coming years when schoool may not be so protective and nurturing of all children equally.

I agree with you actually. My boys were NOT in an academic preschool though. They are in Montessori. The things that you are equating to academic preschool don't apply to the Montessori method. I would never ever advocate for academic preschool. Social skills education is a big part of Montessori. The kids have a blast, great friends, and seek knowledge on their own terms. THAT is why he's happier.

[SnuggleBuggles]

the director was not there thursday when i took dd in with me to see if it would be a good fit for us. i will need to call her on monday to let her know if we will be to class on tuesday, should i meet with her and talk about my concerns or should i just tell her that it is not going to work out? i guess one reason i am thinking about meeting with her is to ask if this was a typical day , are there always this many activities in such a short time period. i don't know if she plans out the day or if its the teacher.

I just don't see how it is going to matter. If the director sets the plans, the director should go over them ahead of time with the staff and not to be there to see the plans executed. Even if she was unexpectedly absent, the plan should be in place and the teachers should know how to run the day. The typical preschool day should be running itself by this point in the year too. I really think this is just the program. YOu seem to really like something about it so if your gut says investigate more, go for it. :) But, check out other possibilities. ;)

[chozen]

I just don't see how it is going to matter. If the director sets the plans, the director should go over them ahead of time with the staff and not to be there to see the plans executed. Even if she was unexpectedly absent, the plan should be in place and the teachers should know how to run the day. The typical preschool day should be running itself by this point in the year too. I really think this is just the program. YOu seem to really like something about it so if your gut says investigate more, go for it. :) But, check out other possibilities. ;)

i think part of the reason that i am having a hard time letting go is because this school goes up to 8th gr. our public schools are not so great and there is a limited # of private schools in our area. we were thinking that she could start in preschool and if it worked out she could remain there until high school, which by then we will have moved to a better school district. you know that dream of having life long friends she meet in preschool (can you tell i moved around ALOT as a child) of course her best interest are to heart so we will make adjustments. thanks so much for your help.:)

[jellibeans]

I meant to create a new topic!

[maestramommy]

Trust us, that school isn't typical and there are much better ones out there. I agree with pp that thought this one sounded joyless.

:yeahthat: My kids are in a traditionally structured preschool, but they have plenty of time to choose their activities. They do circle time and read together an all that. But I think really the only time they are sitting down at a table is when they are doing a craft or eating their snack. They are never sitting there doing sheetwork. It looks like most of their "academic" learning takes place during circle time.