UPDATE, pg. 5. Help: In-laws want to borrow money!

[xmasbabycomin]

So DHs parents, who live 90 miles away, asked to meet him for
Lunch this week. They asked him for $10k to catch up on their
household bills (2 months Behind), some medical bills and some of FILs
Business-related fees. FIL has a home inspection business and MIL is a realtor, Neither of which provide steady incomes or are great jobs in general with the current Market. DH spoke to his sister and learned they had also borrowed $10k from FILs sister's husband and were not repaid, and that they owe the IrS money. According to FIL, the loan to
his BIL was actually for a franchise of FILs business, which went south due
To his BILs lack of effort and was never a loan. Although they have a good amt of equity in their home, they claim it will all go to IRS if they sell now. They are expecting word In April rom the IRS re an appeal. When asked About switching careers or adding a job, they said thats plan b. (DH did tell them that if they're worried about losing their
House, plan b shouldn't wait-no response to that)I'm not sure if DH asked about their 3 cars, which are probably leased and are all newer than ours. He asked if they'd seen a financial planner and they said yes, but DH figured out they were just talking about their CPA. Apparently DHs mom was crying throughout much of this, saying she's pretty sure they're
gonna lose the house and. cars, which will just make working more difficult.


Although we haven't been great about saving, DH makes a good salary and we could give them the money, but it would pretty much completely wipe out our liquid savings and emergency fund. I am looking for a PT job, and I can't help but think about how long it would take me to earn that money back-probably a year. DH says if we give them the money, he has no expectation of getting it back. I feel like Hildy in The Help when I think about telling them no.Of course I hate that they're going through this, but it makes me resentful that they're asking. They said they just didnt want us to ask why they didn't ask them for help later on if they ended up losing the house. I'm not convinced they won't be in this situation again in 6 months even if we do give them that much, especially as their money problems go back decades. (They had a bankruptcy when DH was little; he had to work construction one summer in HS to help pay the rent; in college he had to take a semester off because they just never sent the money they promised.) Obviously there is already some Resentment there on my part, including the fact that they guilt trip us for not seeing them more, but we're there with kids in tow at least 3x the amount they're here.

OK, I'm getting to the babbling point, sorry. I'd love to hear from
Someone who has been in this situation, but any input or even just an
understanding ear Would be appreciated.

[niccig]

Wow, what a difficult situation. I get that they're family, but I don't think you can put yourself in a tight spot to help them out. What happens if you need your emergency fund?

I agree with your DH, they need to be putting plan B into action NOW, and not wait anymore. If you do help, maybe a smaller amount and don't expect to ever get repaid. But even that, it's a lot to ask of your kids. If they really tried to fix the mess, that would help them more than any gift of cash they got from you, as their problems are long standing. And if you save them, will they really change at all?

DH's sister and BIL went through a long layoff, that was made worse by their sky high credit card debt as lived beyond means. MIL and FIL said they would always have a roof over their heads, and food as they could move in with them, but that they would not be financially helping them out (other than small things here and there) as it would risk their retirement savings. MIL said it wouldn't be fair to DH and his other sister if they had to pitch in to help MIL/FIL because their sister had used up her parent's retirement because she couldn't manage her own money. SIL and BIL made major changes and are working their way out of the mess.

[kellij]

They should file bankruptcy again, apparently. Given that they aren't doing anything to better their situation, other than asking for money, I can't imagine how it will change. My DH has had to support his mom and all the while his loser brother lived off of her as well. (So he was also supporting a total loser that has no reason for not contributing other than he just doesn't want to). He's had to tell his mom that she can't ask us for money. It's so tough, but we know that if she needs money it's directly related to her giving her money to loser son, so we default we'd be contributing to him as well.

Seriously, it sounds like they need to file bankruptcy. If they can't do that, then they need to call the places for the medical bills and ask for a deferment. Many places like that will work out a payment plan.

I assume they didn't pay taxes on their income and the IRS has a lien on their house? You could find out how much the lien is v. how much they could sell it for and the IRS would get anything up to what they owe the IRS. They can continue to live there and pay their mortgage and they won't "lose" their house, they just can't ever sell it.

Especially given their situation of asking others for money, not being good at money management, etc, there is no way I'd give my emergency fund to them without at least meeting with their financial advisor with them to see what plans are in place, and I would also require them to have another job. I think if they are asking for that kind of money from you, especially in light of the fact that they have 3 cars, etc, I think you are entitled to make demands in return. Oh, also, I'd want to see the past due bills and I would write the check to them directly. (At least that's what I've always planned to do if we do have to give MIL money; I'll send a check to the electric company way before I'll just send her a check).

Anyway, that totally sucks, I'm sorry they put you in that position. Dh had a friend recently call him and ask him to borrow money. In the end the friend got the money from his brother, but it just puts you in a really horrible awkward position. I mean, how many people, especially with kids, have money that is just burning a hole in their pocket?

Also, just to clarify, I would probably loan my parents the money if they needed it, because I know they would actually pay me back, and because it's so out of character for them, I know it would truly be an emergency. However, they'd still have to do the stuff I said for your in-laws. I would just be a lot more hesitant with your in-laws because of their questionable track record and the fact that they don't appear to be doing much in the way of self-help. Plus, 10,000 is a ton of money. Maybe they should just get a smaller house payment, live in an apartment or something, even if the IRS to take the equity on the home.

[belovedgandp]

From someone who has been there. Say no. It will stink, but you are not responsible for their finances, they are.

DH and I have been on the same page our entire marriage, but yes, ILs asked for money about 6 different times in the first five years we were married. We would help them if they truly could not help themselves to provide the basics, but I am not paying for their hobbies and mistakes when they can do it themselves.

Your family and yourself are your priority.

[Toba]

As someone who has loaned a considerable amount of money to an in-law, DON'T DO IT unless you can AND are willing to gift the money. I can tell you that our relationship with this in-law has forever been changed by the failure to pay back the loan. We haven't spoken except a few terse emails about requesting repayment for over three years and we used to see this in-law and her family ALL the time before the loan. And, like your in-law's situation, this in-law spent WAY WAY beyond her (their) means. It sucks and has left bad feelings with other in-laws who have taken sides (mostly against her, but that was not OUR intention as she was the one who got everyone else involved by asking others for more money). Simply, it is just not worth it. I would have rather stung her with the rejection that she would have gotten over rather quickly than to have lost her and her family for the foreseeable future. Please, please ... learn from my mistake.

[dcmom2b3]

I don't have any BTDT advice, but my gut says NOOOOOOOOO!

Two people with three cars borrowing 10K at a time from different family members is not a sustainable model. If they could demonstrate, on paper, that the money they're asking for now would resolve their problems once and for all, my answer might be different. But, like you, I think this is yet another chapter in a long story.

Your family's security comes first, esp. when the requested funds would only put off, but not solve, looming problems.

[jellibeans]

If you do decide to give them
Money, I suggest paying their bills that they need to live---gas, water, electric and pay them straight to the company.

[mypa]

From someone who has been there. Say no. It will stink, but you are not responsible for their finances, they are.

DH and I have been on the same page our entire marriage, but yes, ILs asked for money about 6 different times in the first five years we were married. We would help them if they truly could not help themselves to provide the basics, but I am not paying for their hobbies and mistakes when they can do it themselves.

Your family and yourself are your priority.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!

This was our situation, too. And even before I met DH, he took out loans ($$ he didn't even have) to give his parents money, this was when he was a college student! The first three years we were together we were paying off those loans, not a great way to start a relationship (we were poor students), while his parents were going on vacations left and right (they said it was because they deserved it cuz their life was so hard).

After all these years, his parents finally admitted they are very very poor financial managers and if there is any money around they will blow it, and they have. They even inherited tens of thousands of dollars and blew threw all of that and came back to us asking for more money.

If someone truly needed money we would help, but more often than not you will see a pattern of poor money management and they will repeat the same financial mistakes over and over. Do not help in this situation unless you have money to give away and are prepared for them coming back to you over and over seeking money everytime they get into trouble.

Also, it could really negatively affect your marriage, it has for us. You will feel a lot of resentment and anger, I still boil inside thinking about it. DH finally got the courage to tell his dad to not ask for money, yet they still do, though less often. Now, if DH wants to give money, he has to sell something of his to get the cash, it will never come out of our savings. NEVER.

[roseyloxs]

Wow. That sounds awful. I do not think I could give them money for all the reasons you listed. As a PP mentioned in her story I think it would be better to let them know that you will not be supporting them financially but you will do your best to offer them shelter if the situation becomes that dire. You have your own kids and family now and you have to ensure that your future is secure.

[mum-to-be]

If you do decide to give them
Money, I suggest paying their bills that they need to live---gas, water, electric and pay them straight to the company.

I agree. I wouldn't give a lump sum for fear they will blow it. I would also only do this if they first sell a car or two, make a lean budget, and cut all expensive hobbies. And I think you would have to see it as a gift rather than a loan, or you will be bitter. Maybe you should go through the cost-saving thread to get ideas to help them economize.

[mum-to-be]

Wow. That sounds awful. I do not think I could give them money for all the reasons you listed. As a PP mentioned in her story I think it would be better to let them know that you will not be supporting them financially but you will do your best to offer them shelter if the situation becomes that dire. You have your own kids and family now and you have to ensure that your future is secure.

Yes, actually, that is an even better idea. Hopefully you get along well with them though. It would bug me like crazy to live with ILs who are blowing the money they have on expensive hobbies while I am having to juggle to find space for them in my home

[hillview]

Don't do it. It sounds like my parents. We made the mistake of loaning them a LOT of money over several months before it became apparent that we would never get it back and that they could not manage their finances in a responsible manner. My dad has an MBA from Harvard, he isn't stupid just inept at finances (like totally inept). I would work with them to take action on a plan b and help them if needed to put THAT into action vs tossing more money into the money pit.

I love my parents but wish we could get the $$ back. We ultimately ended up buying a 2 family and they live with us and take care of the kids for money.
/hillary

[DietCokeLover]

It's an awful position to be in. My FIL has come to us several times wanting to borrow money. We loaned it twice and then seeing a pattern, we had to start saying no. Thankfully, he has paid us back, but he also owes money to his brother that he has not paid.

It feels terrible to say no, but we knew it would continue if we didn't. FIL became unretired, and got a job after several no's.

[Seitvonzu]

ack. it's not your fault that you weren't "great at saving" and only have a bit of an emergency fund.... you have SOMETHING , but like you said-- that's YOUR emergency money. if something should happen that would protect your family. i can't imagine either set of parents (dhs or mine) would want us to jeopardize our financial situation to "help" them. in your situation, i'm not sure it's even really "helping" -- since they have gotten money before and just ended up in the same situation.

it's hard though , because it's your husband's parents and he probably feels like he could do something (because of his salary). i get that. i think the best thing to do is take the hard emergeny line on it-- "we have that money for our family in case of an emergency. if we give the money to your parents, we might end up in a precarious situation ourselves. a year is a long time and anything could happen while we were trying to build it back up."

i would not be comfortable with sacrificing that cushion. i think you relationship with dh's parents would take a huge hit when they a) don't pay you back and b) end up in the same situation down the road.

:( i'm sorry you are dealing with this. money is hard :(

[TwinFoxes]

In the situation you describe there's no way I'd feel comfortable giving $10 THOUSAND. That is a lot of money. It'd be different if they were hit with devastating medical bills. But over spending and bad money management by someone else is not a reason for me to put my family's financial well being in jeopardy. Sorry kids, no 529 contributions this year, Grammy and Gramps want to keep their third car.

I also don't like their "we didn't want you to ask why we didn't come to you" comment. Gee, thanks for selflessly asking me for $10,000 so I wouldn't feel bad. That is so nice of you. :eyeroll:

This is such a hard situation. It's hard to see loved ones struggle, but I just couldn't in good conscience loan that much money when I have kids that depend on me to look out for their financial well being.

[crl]

That is really hard. Given their pattern of irresponsibility with money, I would say no. I might offer to pay for a session with a good financial counselor who could help them decide whether to file for bankruptcy or what other steps they could take.

Catherine

[♥ms.pacman♥]

In the situation you describe there's no way I'd feel comfortable giving $10 THOUSAND. That is a lot of money. It'd be different if they were hit with devastating medical bills. But over spending and bad money management by someone else is not a reason for me to put my family's financial well being in jeopardy. Sorry kids, no 529 contributions this year, Grammy and Gramps want to keep their third car.

I also don't like their "we didn't want you to ask why we didn't come to you" comment. Gee, thanks for selflessly asking me for $10,000 so I wouldn't feel bad. That is so nice of you. :eyeroll:

This is such a hard situation. It's hard to see loved ones struggle, but I just couldn't in good conscience loan that much money when I have kids that depend on me to look out for their financial well being.

this exactly. it would be different if it were some sort of life-threatening emergency (like some surgery is needed or something), but for this, and given their track record (THREE cars for 2 people without little kids??), i would have to say no.

i also agree with the PP who said something like this could really negatively affect your marriage. I know I would be very resentful over something like this. my ex who i dated before DH, years before had loaned his parents something like $8k so they could buy a brand new car, remodel their house, and other non-necessities. It seemed like they had no intention of paying him back. Whereas my ex was living in a ratty (LITERALLY) grad school dorm, sharing with a roomate, etc, pinching pennies, etc. I just didn't get it, and the whole thing made me uncomfortable, even though i was just a GF I had no say in how he spent. He didn't seem bothered by it, but I did. I just do not like the idea at all of lending parents money unless they really and truly were in some sort of emergency situation. I don't think I could deal with the resentment, and having to pay for other's mistakes & poor management.

[geochick]

People who can't manage their own money shouldn't be given a lump sum of your cash...even if you are related.

If it were my parents, I'd buy them a Costco gift card, a grocery store gift card, pay their electric and gas, for a bit, but I wouldn't give them money.

My excuse would be that we've been saving for the kids' college funds, and we've agreed not to touch that money. We're willing to help with bills and staples here and there, but we just can't gamble with our kids' futures. They have to come first.

[marymoo86]

From someone who has been there. Say no. It will stink, but you are not responsible for their finances, they are.

DH and I have been on the same page our entire marriage, but yes, ILs asked for money about 6 different times in the first five years we were married. We would help them if they truly could not help themselves to provide the basics, but I am not paying for their hobbies and mistakes when they can do it themselves.

Your family and yourself are your priority.

:yeahthat:

This situation doesn't seem to stem from some type of aberration. It appears to be a culmination of poor financial management and planning. Don't get sucked into it. If there is some nonfinancial way to assist them, then do what you can.

[Giantbear]

My sister and her husband go to my folks for money a lot. The only way they give them money is by directly reviewing, and then paying their bills. When my sister complained that my folks were treating her like a child (she is 46), they simply replied that they lost their ability to complain when they mismanaged their money to the point of having to ask for a handout (make no mistake, if you give your inlaws money, it is not a loan, it is a gift). If you do decide to help them, which i do not think you should off of what you have posted, do not just give them money. Have them present you with bills and pay them.

What they really need is to meet with someone who can help them reduce their monthly nut. Help them shed their leases (swap a lease), deal with the IRS and state (if you owe one, you usually owe the other) and deal with their creditors, even if it means bankruptcy

[123LuckyMom]

I have to agree that "lending" them the money is a bad idea both for you and for them if they're not willing to make the kind of changes that will help stabilize their financial future. I would make any gift of money entirely conditional on the changes they need to make, and your DH should be the one, in cooperation with his siblings, to determine what the conditions should be (not them). You should make sure they have a plan with their creditors, and I agree that you should pay the creditors directly. If you put together a good plan, you may well be able to afford to make monthly payments for them out of DH's paycheck rather than tapping into your savings.

This is a terrible situation, and I'm so sorry you've been put in this position! I have an aunt, and I am the only relative who maintains a relationship with her. She's a terrible money manager, and I KNOW she will end up in a terrible situation. DH and I actually talk about what we'll do when she comes to us. We just don't know. I really hope you, DH, and his siblings can find that fine line between lovingly helping family (which means doing what is best for them, not just what they want) and protecting your own needs.

[veronica]

this entire set-up screams no. they have a history of not repaying? if you are considering "loaning" them money, that reference is reason enough to say no.

May I suggest meeting with them and going over their current finances. let them get rid of cars,pricey phones, cable, etc. in a show of good faith that they agree they need to make changes. And I agree with PP, if you want to help them-pay some utilities....directly to the utility company.

[scrooks]

I agree with many previous posters. I don't think you should put your family in a somewhat risky financial position (no emergency fund) to help people who clearly haven't made any financial sacrifices themselves. They really need to look for different employment, potentially sell their house and downsize and get rid of a car or 2. I think it's a bit selfish of them to take financial security away from their grandchildren. I would probably be inclined to help them with groceries or utilities.... Someway that you could see where the money is being spent.

[JBaxter]

NO NO NO. They can sell cars, home and what ever else but 10 grand.. NOPE. They had one bankruptcy already it shows a pattern. If they asked for money to say pay the electric bill that would be one thing but 10grand? No way.

[pinkmomagain]

BTDT. Please don't give them the lump sum. I would help them try to figure out next steps and offer to pay for a few of their most essential bills directly to the provider.

[gamma]

The only money that I would put out would be to sign your ILs up for a local Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University Course. It's the ages old "If you give them fish...., but if you teach them to fish..." If you give them money I have a feeling they will be in the same position in a few months from now and you will be without your hard earned money. Also, sometimes Dave Ramsey even recommends letting the house go, move into an apartment and start over. It's just a house. Dave Ramsey is a wonderful resource. Perhaps have them start with his basic book "The Total Money Makeover." It's so difficult to be in your position and it seems someone has to be the parent. Do it with kindness but stay strong.

http://www.daveramsey.com/store/prod326.html

http://www.daveramsey.com/fpu

[vludmilla]

Given the situation as you describe it, I would say no. I would not put myself into a precarious position to help others keep up three new, leased cars while they refused to work additional jobs.

[emily_gracesmama]

From someone who has been there. Say no. It will stink, but you are not responsible for their finances, they are.

DH and I have been on the same page our entire marriage, but yes, ILs asked for money about 6 different times in the first five years we were married. We would help them if they truly could not help themselves to provide the basics, but I am not paying for their hobbies and mistakes when they can do it themselves.

Your family and yourself are your priority.

I totally agree with this post! We've been asked by several extended family members for money and we've said no each time. These are people who are not making good choices so why would we put ourselves at risk when they have made bad choices and overspent their means? In your situation it sounds like you would not get the $ back since they already owe the other family members money. If it makes you sick to think about it and your husband is ok with it then protect your family first.

[Kymberley]

I haven't read the other responses, so I'll just throw my 2 cents in. Never loan money. If someone is in need, and you can afford to and want help, give them money with no expectation of ever being reimbursed. We took that tidbit from Dave Ramsey. If you do end up loaning your ILs the money they are asking for and they never pay it back, it will create even more resentments.

[Octobermommy]

N-O! I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to these situations. But, honestly no good can come of this. This won't be the end of their financial troubles so it wont free them of their problems but it very well put your family in to a bad financial position. No emergency fund is not a good idea for you guys.

IMO this is a good time to think with your head and not your heart. So sorry you are in this position.

[kijip]

I lost a longer reply.

Just don't do it. Say NO!

It may not seem this way to them but they are actually better off if you say no. Don't let them kick the can down the road any longer, certainly not at the expense of all of your savings! They need to move out of the house if they can't afford it. They need to sell the extra cars. They need to make the hard, grown up choices here. Giving them this money is just a waste- don't throw good money after bad.

[urquie]

That is really hard. Given their pattern of irresponsibility with money, I would say no. I might offer to pay for a session with a good financial counselor who could help them decide whether to file for bankruptcy or what other steps they could take.

Catherine
:yeahthat:

[crayonblue]

I haven't read the other responses, so I'll just throw my 2 cents in. Never loan money. If someone is in need, and you can afford to and want help, give them money with no expectation of ever being reimbursed. We took that tidbit from Dave Ramsey. If you do end up loaning your ILs the money they are asking for and they never pay it back, it will create even more resentments.

Totally agree. We either give money or not but we don't loan. It is just a mess waiting to happen.

[speo]

I agree with the PP. Don't do it. The figure of of $10k just seems so nebulous. It is not an amount that someone would come up with after looking through all of their finances, determining what needs to be paid, and how they will live. How about an amount like $9,625 is needed to pay off these certain bills? Instead, to me it sounds like they just picked that amount out of thin air - it's not too much and not too little.

[kijip]

Also- if they owe the IRS it is because they OWE THE IRS. Why should they get a pass on their taxes because they are financially irresponsible. Sell the house. Pay off the debt. Get an apartment and live with 1 or 2 low cost cars. They need to deal with these very pressing realities.

[smilequeen]

My thought is not to loan money to family. If you want to just give money, go for it, but a loan is asking for issues.

My ILs ask for "loans" constantly. We're NEVER going to see that money, who are they kidding? I'm fine with giving them money since we can...not so fine with the reason they need it...i.e. bad investment choices CONSTANTLY that they can't cover while FIL is a freaking STOCKBROKER. Worst.stockbroker.ever. apparently.

[newnana]

Not a chance. I wholeheartedly agree with everything everyone else has said.

Given the fact of 3 cars alone I bet they could find their needed 10k pretty fast in liquidizing the stuff they already have. I will say that again below because I fimly believe it.

They will not pay you back.

This is a pattern of behavior for them.

They have already filed bankruptcy once and are living beyond their means.

They have already put the financial well-being of their children in jeopardy in the past and didn't learn from it. Now they are willing to do the same to their grandchildren, your children. Handing them money will not fix anything.

Love the comment about telling your kids they don't have college funds because granny and grandpa wanted to keep the big house, not work extra jobs and have extra cars. My kid would look at me like I was kidding. And then to find out I wasn't? I cannot imagine.

This from someone who has been loaning money to her brothers since high school. But here's the difference. My brothers always pay me back with 10% interest. That is a loan. Your IL's are asking for a gift. Big difference. Granted, mine is a kind of a sharky loan, but they know that this bank is always open and will always say yes because I will always be paid back within 1 year and WITH a 10% interest rate. They could go to the bank and get a 3% interest rate. Totally different scenario than what you are describing. For us it's a win/win deal. With the situation with your IL's it's a nobody wins deal.

You will not see any of this money ever again if you give it to them. Or if you do, it will be in the form of the gifts they give your kids and the money you see them blowing in the cars they drive and the house they are in with stuff they don't need.

Teach them Need vs. want.

Agree with the other posters about seeing their bills. What is the 10k for? past due cable bills? puh-lease.

Help them make a plan. Help them sell their stuff. Help them budget and understand where there money is going. Help them better utilize their electricity and save where they can there. Help them get better deals on their insurance and phone bills. But do not give them money. Help them learn to grocery shop and watch ads and not go out to eat. Given the 3 cars alone i bet they could find 10k pretty fast. And tell them that you don't want them to spend money on you guys. That it would make you happier for them to spend time with the kids at the park or doing crafts than $$ presents that they can't afford. Make memories and save $$.

sorry so long. I have so much to say on this and should probably stop talking. Don't do it.

[Melaine]

The only money that I would put out would be to sign your ILs up for a local Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University Course. It's the ages old "If you give them fish...., but if you teach them to fish..." If you give them money I have a feeling they will be in the same position in a few months from now and you will be without your hard earned money. Also, sometimes Dave Ramsey even recommends letting the house go, move into an apartment and start over. It's just a house. Dave Ramsey is a wonderful resource. Perhaps have them start with his basic book "The Total Money Makeover." It's so difficult to be in your position and it seems someone has to be the parent. Do it with kindness but stay strong.

http://www.daveramsey.com/store/prod326.html

http://www.daveramsey.com/fpu

Yes! This!!

[swissair81]

As someone who recently needed my emergency fund (to pay for our flood expenses- insurance still hasn't reimbursed us almost at all.), I would be very reluctant to tell anyone to give up their savings for anything less than an emergency. There is a reason we should be putting money away. I now know why.

[Jo..]

My Mom asked me for money for a new car 12+ years ago When I was in my 20s and doing well in NYC.

I told her I would LOAN her the money, with legal docs and demand to be paid back. It was a MESSY situation, but ultimately she backed down.

She wanted a hand-out and not a loan.

Knowing what I do now, I would never lend or give a relative money unless it was truly an emergency and I had no expectation of being paid back, ever.

[rachelh]

BTDT!!!! Don't do it!! My IL's owe us over $20,000 that we are not getting back. It has wreaked havoc on our marriage as DH has the utmost respect for his father and thinks he can do no wrong.

Every time we HAVE to visit the IL's (they live internationally) I have anxiety for months leading up to the visit and I am far from comfortable around them. They have come to expect hand-outs - they never ask DH for money anymore because of the "spoiled American DIL" that I am, but they ask DH's brothers for money who in turn come to us. I have made it very clear that I will no longer be giving them any of my hard-earned money.

Please don't do it! Especially since they seem like they are just asking for money rather than attempting to change their current situation. (ie. look for new jobs, get rid of the cars, etc.)

[xmasbabycomin]

First, THANK YOU so much for all the thoughtful replies. Sometime it takes someone not directly involved with the situation to help get perspective.

To add a couple of things in response to some of your comments, in a way it would be helpful to involve DHs sibling in this. His sister lives in the same town as them and has always had a closer relationship to them. (DH has always been a bit of a black sheep due to, frankly, being very smart, and later, his opposite political views.) Recently, though, his sister's relationship with them has been strained. (she seems to think its because they're resentful she bought an investment rental property, but also they think she's taking sides on a non financial disagreement between them and FILs sister). She has said she will let them live with her temporarily or help set them up on her husband's family's land in a trailer. I'm sincerely glad she's put some thought into it.

We have decided to definitely not give them the full amount. As some of you have said, we dont want to lend money if we're going to be resentful if we dont get it back, and with that much money, I know I will. I would like to perhaps help them w/a smaller amount with some conditions, minimally that weplay the bills directly/don't make checks out to them and that they see a financial planner (on our dime is fine). However, I think there is a line that DH is very afraid to cross by getting directly involved. He is afraid all the pain and resentment he has towards them re. money wll resurface if he gets caught up, and he thinks giving them, say, 2k, no strings attached, is less risky for his mental health than doing it my way. We are already in a difficult place in our marriage, and he doesn't need that baggage resurfacing, making things worse. The comment about, "Sorry, kids, can't put money into your 529 b/c of granny..." , and putting our kids' futures at risk really made me think about preventing what happened to DH from happening again with DC.

I think our compromise might be for us to tell them we will make out up to three checks for essential bills for them, up to $2k, no strings attached. They cannot approach us for money again unless they have a comprehensive, long-term plan approVed by a financial planner (paid for by us). Maybe we could add in we want a written explanation of what they have done to start enacting that plan (sold a car, part-time job, etc). I would write out the checks and send them, minimizing DHs involvement. What do you guys think of that?

I think I will go email my Dad/step mom and thank them for being so on top of their situation. They recently sent us something to sign, as beneficiaries, since they were switching all their accounts away from sketchy BofA. I have models of what to avoid and strive towards, I suppose.

[xmasbabycomin]

I agree with the PP. Don't do it. The figure of of $10k just seems so nebulous. It is not an amount that someone would come up with after looking through all of their finances, determining what needs to be paid, and how they will live. How about an amount like $9,625 is needed to pay off these certain bills? Instead, to me it sounds like they just picked that amount out of thin air - it's not too much and not too little.

Forgot I wanted to respond to this, too. Before their lunch meeting, FIL called DH to give him the heads up that MIL would be asking him for money (apparently she does most of the finances, so he's absolved?). DH asked how much and FIL said something like I think we need 7k so she's going to ask you for $10k. So apparently our $3k is just padding or gravy to them. It's like they're planning ahead on things getting worse, but still not really doing anything to prevent it, putting off Plan B. Enter Einstein's definition of insanity.

[MamaMolly]

Forgot I wanted to respond to this, too. Before their lunch meeting, FIL called DH to give him the heads up that MIL would be asking him for money (apparently she does most of the finances, so he's absolved?). DH asked how much and FIL said something like I think we need 7k so she's going to ask you for $10k. So apparently our $3k is just padding or gravy to them. It's like they're planning ahead on things getting worse, but still not really doing anything to prevent it, putting off Plan B. Enter Einstein's definition of insanity.

Oh honey. This just stinks. REALLY stinks. I totally understand your DH's stance that his peace of mind is worth $2K and to be done with giving them more. Sigh.

So FIL 'thinks' they need $7K so MIL will ask for $10K? Wow. Greedy much? I hope your DH can stick to his guns. Hugs for both of you.

[xmasbabycomin]

DH just had a stiff drink and called his parents. He offered to pay $2K of their bills and they basically responded with how they forgot to tell him they needed money to renew their licenses ($2400 total, not a surprise-comes every year). He said one minute his mom was saying how she's afraid they're going to end up on the street, but the next minute how she's really hopeful that they're going to be able to turn things around/make more money, their cars will be paid off in 2 years,etc. (how is this lady not seeing how those these things do not compute?). DH asked if they thought about his suggestion to see a financial planner and they didn't really respond. DH asked about the third car and they said it doesn't really run well and needs repairs. (Um, so...?) When he brought up the $2K again they said they didn't really want to take it if they weren't sure if it would help. (Huh? You want a medal for cutting out cable but $2K is not worth your time?) Then they said maybe $3K. (is this a negotiation?)

Here's what really got me: they said THEY would do anything for HIM (DH).

Now I'm thinking they're just going to use that money for their licenses. I'm almost sorry we even offered the $2K because I don't think I want to endorse them continuing the jobs they still have-especially both of them. To me, the nature of high expenses and unsteady income is a big part of the problem-a problem the words tonight are showing me they alternate in rationalizing, denying and ignoring.

Time for my stiff drink. Thanks for listening

[kijip]

Here's what really got me: they said THEY would do anything for HIM (DH).



This is emotional blackmail. And they clearly won't do what it takes to not be a drain financially on their children. So it's not even true.

It's your money but honestly, I think giving them $2000 will just drag out their issues longer. If they can't downgrade their cars or reduce their monthly nut by a lot, they are NOT taking things seriously.

[jenfromnj]

This is emotional blackmail. And they clearly won't do what it takes to not be a drain financially on their children. So it's not even true.

It's your money but honestly, I think giving them $2000 will just drag out their issues longer. If they can't downgrade their cars or reduce their monthly nut by a lot, they are NOT taking things seriously.

:yeahthat:, and especially the bolded part. My mom is a big fan of that kind of BS, and it's a good portion of the reason I don't have a relationship with her.

They clearly are not seeing their situation realistically, and don't seem to want to have to make any sacrifices to better their financial picture, but apparently feel entitled to continued help to maintain their chosen lifestyle. IMO, if you give them $ now, they will likely come back to the well in a few months, and the situation will start all over again.

It really is a no-win situation for you, and I'm sorry they put you in that position. Hope you and your DH can find a resolution that you're both OK with, even if ILs don't like it.

[Uno-Mom]

DH just had a stiff drink and called his parents. He offered to pay $2K of their bills and they basically responded with how they forgot to tell him they needed money to renew their licenses ($2400 total, not a surprise-comes every year). He said one minute his mom was saying how she's afraid they're going to end up on the street, but the next minute how she's really hopeful that they're going to be able to turn things around/make more money, their cars will be paid off in 2 years,etc. (how is this lady not seeing how those these things do not compute?). DH asked if they thought about his suggestion to see a financial planner and they didn't really respond. DH asked about the third car and they said it doesn't really run well and needs repairs. (Um, so...?) When he brought up the $2K again they said they didn't really want to take it if they weren't sure if it would help. (Huh? You want a medal for cutting out cable but $2K is not worth your time?) Then they said maybe $3K. (is this a negotiation?)

Here's what really got me: they said THEY would do anything for HIM (DH).

Now I'm thinking they're just going to use that money for their licenses. I'm almost sorry we even offered the $2K because I don't think I want to endorse them continuing the jobs they still have-especially both of them. To me, the nature of high expenses and unsteady income is a big part of the problem-a problem the words tonight are showing me they alternate in rationalizing, denying and ignoring.

Time for my stiff drink. Thanks for listening Wait, I'm not sure I understand. So, did they accept the 2k? Please tell us your dh didn't get negotiated up!

I'm so sorry.

[xmasbabycomin]

Wait, I'm not sure I understand. So, did they accept the 2k? Please tell us your dh didn't get negotiated up!

I'm so sorry.

No, DH didn't tell them he'd give them 3k. They basically said they'd think about our offer and get back to us. After the emotional blackmail, as pp put it etc., I think $0 is more appropriate than $3k.

He said he felt he was as firm as he felt he could be without making them angry re. the changes he thinks they should make. If he did push it further, I'm not sure if they would actually listen & change or just act betrayed.

[niccig]

He said he felt he was as firm as he felt he could be without making them angry re. the changes he thinks they should make. If he did push it further, I'm not sure if they would actually listen & change or just act betrayed.

I think you need to accept that they will act betrayed. You're not doing what they want, which is bailing them out of their mess. They're going to angry/upset/hurt etc. I think you both need to prepare for that, so you don't let that change your mind. It's also part of the emotional blackmail. "See how upset I am. You could fix that if you gave us what we want" kind of attitude.

I think trying to get an extra 1K from you is enough to say "you know what, I don't think we can help you out of this mess. You need more than a one-off loan, as the housing market is not in good shape. You need to go see a Financial Planner and we'll pay for the visit."

Let a 3rd party by the tough guy to say "you need to get rid of your cars, get a different job, sell the house" etc. That way you and your DH and not dragged into their mess.

ETA. And the didn't do anything to help DH - did they help when he was in HS working to help pay the rent, or when he was in college and they didn't pay when they said they would. That's not helping DH. My BIL nearly failed his last year in HS as he had to run the family farm, but his Dad had a heart attack, so it was an emergency/one-off situation. There were consequence, BIL didn't get into college, but he did an apprenticeship, worked, and is now back in college. He doesn't have resentment, as knows it was just life. It sounds like your DH's family create their problems, and want others to solve them.

[randomkid]

No, DH didn't tell them he'd give them 3k. They basically said they'd think about our offer and get back to us. After the emotional blackmail, as pp put it etc., I think $0 is more appropriate than $3k.

He said he felt he was as firm as he felt he could be without making them angry re. the changes he thinks they should make. If he did push it further, I'm not sure if they would actually listen & change or just act betrayed.

Really? They'll THINK about it? That pretty much shows how ignorant they are. Take the money! If someone offered me $2K, I'd be all over it. At this point, why does your DH care so much if he makes them angry? They are making both of you angry and they don't seem to care. And no, they are not going to listen and they are not going to change. That is obvious in their lack of interest in going to a financial planner. They know if they do that, they will be told to do things they don't want to do. I wouldn't expect much and if you "loan" them money, I wouldn't expect to get it back. Tell your DH to not let them guilt him into anything. They obviously are not going to end up on the street if your DH's sister has offered 2 options for housing for them.

[MamaMolly]

This is said with love and compassion, but have you shown this thread to your DH? Assure him that it is anonamous, that we don't know your identity, and let him read our collective responses.

I don't want your DH to feel piled up on, I want him to see that he has a TON of support from neutral, third party sources. Some of us have walked a very similar path. But all of us (IIRC) believe it is wrong to give his parents the sum they want.

I'm so sorry that you guys are having to be the only grownups in this situation.

[hellokitty]

Wow, they are pretty entitled, huh? I would be upset too. Time to walk away from the situation and time for your DH to give them a lecture to grow up and take some responsibility for themselves. I'm sorry that you and your DH have been put in this sort of situation, it just sucks, esp when they act like such turds about it.

[khalloc]

I am confused about why it costs so much to renew their licenses.

[Seitvonzu]

:( i'm really sad for you, but i think everyone's right-- BACK AWAY NOW. this is very common blackmail-- "i'd do anything for you" stuff. we have a saying in our household "sayin' ain't doin'"-- there actions have proved time and again that they won't do "anything" for your husband.

offer the financial planner, and that's it :(

[roseyloxs]

I am confused about why it costs so much to renew their licenses.

:yeahthat:

[wellyes]

They'll THINK about it? What a pair.


When they call back with their inevitable counter-proposal, your DH should say something like "I'm sorry, but we are a one income household, and any money we loan to you will be at risk to our family's financial security. I'm sure you wouldn't want to do that to your grandchildren. Perhaps after my wife gets a job, we'll be more secure and can talk about it then".

And then never get a damn job.

[wellyes]

:yeahthat: I am pretty sure it costs me about $25 to renew my license.
I think they're talking about the business licenses.

[roseyloxs]

I think they're talking about the business licenses.

Oh! :6: Thanks.

I still think you guys are perfectly justified in offering no money at all. Its pretty clear that they are not going to be grateful anyway.

[veronica]

It's time to walk away.

DH can tell them that if they would do ANYTHING for him, then they will stop living irresponsibly and guilting their children into paying for it. Then tell them that since they care so much about DH, that he has decided to put the 2K in THEIR GRANDCHILDREN'S college fund. the end.

[daisysmom]

Like everyone else, I advise you to sit down and talk rationally to your DH and agree to call them back (or email them if they have email) and say that you have rethought the situation and you don't think a loan is in the best interests of your children right now, and you need to put them first.

My FIL is an emotional manipulator (or probably, a narcassist). What your parents said (espectially the suggestion of $3K) is textbook! They need to end the leases on their cars (at least one of them), and get paying hourly jobs. There is no reason for them not to do that. Do they have health insurance? That will be the next shoe to drop, a serious medical problem that will prevent them from working. While they can, they need to get a job. You need that money for your own children.

[randomkid]

It's time to walk away.

DH can tell them that if they would do ANYTHING for him, then they will stop living irresponsibly and guilting their children into paying for it. Then tell them that since they care so much about DH, that he has decided to put the 2K in THEIR GRANDCHILDREN'S college fund. the end.

:yeahthat: Well said.

[mctlaw]

Just wanted to add for the chorus of support that your DH's parents are wacked to think they are entitled to your money. I would be in favor of just giving my parents money if they needed it, but although they are extremely frugal people, they have done many things for me, including in my young adulthood, to show they would (and will, if we needed it!) do anything for me. To give these people your emergency fund when they have shown no willingness to take steps to change the lifestyle that got them in this predicament in the first place, no way.

[ast96]

Please reconsider giving them any money.

Your in-laws are like addicts -- they just need a "fix" to get them through to the next time they need a fix. They aren't looking to change. They are looking to continue their lifestyle.

Giving them money doesn't give you dominion over how they spend it or what they do. It's a losing gesture. It's like burning it in the fireplace. You'll get temporary warmth from it, but you'll be cold again when the fire goes out and you'll be out the money too.

If you pay their bills directly, you make a paper trail and set a precedent for being financially responsible for those bills. I would not pay anyone for them. You don't want to be held financially responsible for them.

There are systems in place -- of which they have availed themselves before, apparently -- for this predicament. This didn't happen overnight. Now they need to face the consequences.

You and your husband need to take care of yourselves and your children. Your in-laws will suck you down the drain with them and they won't feel an ounce of guilt about it. Don't do it.

It sucks to realize your parents are irresponsible and, to some extent, toxic. But sometimes, it is what it is.

[California]

My gosh, they've got big cajones to say something like that!

Totally agree with other PPs that you may want to rethink giving them any money.

Your DH may think in order to keep a good relationship with his parents, he needs to give them money. Is that his motivation? The opposite is actually true. Write it all out with him-- the possible outcomes, the advantages and disadvantages. Maybe when he sees it on paper he'll get it. The stress of loaning them money and seeing them continue to make poor life style choices will be a huge emotional strain on his relationship with them. Plus, it will hurt your ILs relationship with you, and your relationship with your DH. Already just the fact that they asked is hurting your DH-- imagine if you say yes, and they ask again and again in the future. At this point I think since they've put it out there that they'd do anything for him, he can replay back, "Then don't ask me for money. It is too stressful on me and my wife." And say it as many times as he needs too.

It sounds like they are trying to put off the pain of having to change their lifestyles. But they are going to have to deal with it at some point. Better to deal with it now, then after they've wasted your cash. At that point it won't matter to you or your DH if its $2000 or $3000 or $5000. Any dollar amount will have become a symbol to you of how they took advantage of you and wasted your gift. You will be more stressed, upset, and disappointed with them. Or at least, that is the impression I get from how your DH feels right now, from what you've written. Poor guy sounds miserable!

If at some point it comes down to them living with the other relative (sister in law?) and you have a good relationship with her, maybe you could offer to her at that point to put $100 a month under the table (out of ILs awareness) towards HER increased bills since she's housing them. Then you aren't giving any money directly towards the ILs.

[swissair81]

Oh! :6: Thanks.

I still think you guys are perfectly justified in offering no money at all. Its pretty clear that they are not going to be grateful anyway.

I'm still confused. I have a professional license. It costs me $48 every 2 years. I realize some states have double or triple that, but still it shouldn't be $2400.

[sntm]

It does depend on the license. My medical license is $600 to renew.

I agree with all of the above. If the financial situation was an unexpected emergency that few people would have been prepared for, that would be a very different situation. I did borrow money from my parents for my divorce, though they offered rather than my asking. But, I also made a lot of changes (allowed my much younger brother to move in with me as a payback to my dad, etc.) Unless they make the hard changes NOW, that money won't go far. And personally, I come from a background that says you do ANYTHING to make money to support your family. I was really ticked at my XH who claimed he couldn't find a job here and therefore needed the full child-support, when I was sending him links to jobs. They weren't glamorous (checkout at Whole Foods) but I was one who worked odd jobs even during medical school.

[vludmilla]

I would absolutely rescind the offer of any money at this point. I am so sorry that you have to deal with this.

[khm]

Here's what really got me: they said THEY would do anything for HIM (DH).


Tell them the "anything" is asking of them is for them see a financial planner and face the hard facts.

Or, does their "anything" involve a fictional alternate universe where they HAVE money and would loan it out if asked. Yeah, never, ever going to happen.

He needs to tell them he cannot risk his own family's security when it is completely plain as day that they do not intend to make changes that will either increase their income or reduce their expenses.

[kellij]

No, DH didn't tell them he'd give them 3k. They basically said they'd think about our offer and get back to us. After the emotional blackmail, as pp put it etc., I think $0 is more appropriate than $3k.

He said he felt he was as firm as he felt he could be without making them angry re. the changes he thinks they should make. If he did push it further, I'm not sure if they would actually listen & change or just act betrayed.

WTH?!! THEY WILL THINK ABOUT WHETHER THEY WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY OR NOT?!!!! This may be the offensive thing I've read yet; that they've said. They are looney toons. If it were me, I wouldn't even feel bad about not giving them money now. Wow. I would have to call their associations to see how much the renewal fees are. I definitely call BS on the 2400 too. I think I'd have to do it just to let my DH know exactly how much it really is. Crazy!

[kijip]

Please reconsider giving them any money.

Your in-laws are like addicts -- they just need a "fix" to get them through to the next time they need a fix. They aren't looking to change. They are looking to continue their lifestyle.


This is a very excellent way to look at it. They are addicted to being financially reckless. They will not stop till they run out of options, if even then. Do not enable them. 1/5 of your emergency fund is not up for grabs to their irresponsibility. Just say no.

[twowhat?]

Wow. Just wow. I would be very tempted to tell them "We thought about it too and decided that we cannot loan you any money after all."

[dcmom2b3]

Honestly, I think they're beyond the point where a financial planner would be of use, and I wouldn't offer to pay for one. "Financial planning" is prospective, but their future is eclipsed (eliminated?) by their past choices. The only real solution that negates the effect of their past choices is declaring bankruptcy. If they'd do "anything" for DH then they need to agree to see a bankruptcy lawyer, and the only money that I'd be willing to give them, at this point, would be the initial consultation fee with the lawyer.

Have you ever had the experience of having a panhandler reject your offer to buy them food, insisting on cash instead? What the ILs are doing is little better. They're playing you. More to the point, they're playing on your DH, and the sensitivities about his parents' finances that were created BY THEM during his childhood.

The only reason you're giving these folks the time of day is because they have a family relationship that they're happily exploiting. They shouldn't get to do that, IMHO. Offering to pay a lawyer's consultation fee is a solution that makes them still ultimately responsible for the choices they've made.

This may sound harsh, and I apologize for that. Pls understand that I say all of this as someone who's had her share of financial ups and downs, has asked for and accepted help. But I've never played a family member (or anyone) to get help. What you've shared in your updates . . . the dishonesty, emotional blackmail and manipulation? Ugh.

[xmasbabycomin]

I don't know where to start (or continue, more accurately). Yes, the $2K+ for licenses is apparently for business licenses and possibly association fees. My stepdad is a Home Inspector and my mom has complained to me about the high cost of maintaining licensure and insurance, so maybe that's something. I don't know how much of that is mandatory or what. Daisysmom mentioned health insurance, which they do fortunately have. FIL had a heart attack a few years back so they have mentioned something about him not being up to working some jobs, how he can set his own hours by owning his own business, blablablah. I don't think owning a housing-related business-especially after the first one you owned went bankrupt-in this economy is stress-free, just as this situation can't be for him. The weird thing is, DH said the only other job they ever mentioned for him is a school bus driver. Not sure how well they thought that one through.

I've received advice from here and elsewhere suggesting a bankruptcy attorney, a financial planner, a debt consolidation expert and probably some others. I'm not sure how much it matters which one is best for them to see if they won't go, but it might make us feel more in control to give them thoughtful suggestions. Ast96 warned of leaving a paper trail with our names by paying their bills, which I don't completely understand, but it concerns me. A friend of a friend also warned that she made a $2K mortgage payment for her brother and apparently he lost the house anyway, and she feels the money was not only wasted, but also is delaying the foreclosure process. That concerns me, too, but I don't think DH wants to rescind. Personally, as some of you suggested, I'd like to turn their manipulative line re. doing anything for us back around on them: go to a professional (who will give you the hard truths, so we don't have to & so maybe you'll listen). I think they'll have to choose between their house, their current job or bankruptcy. And not choosing is a choice. It's hard to find a good time to talk to DH about it. We are in marriage counseling, and we'll be using some of that next hour on this.

Again, thank you ALL for your thoughtful, honest comments, experiences and advice.

ETA: btw, I think it's been at least 3 days now that they've been considering our offer.

[Twoboos]

You've gotten lots of good advice, obviously.

I'm late to the game but we were in a similar situation. Someone needed $4k and DH thought they should have it but I didn't. We gave it as a gift, and don't expect to get it back. I completely don't think about it anymore (but remembered when this thread came up, LOL!) because there's no point. It was a one-time thing and it will NOT be happening again, no matter now desperate this person's situation gets. In our case, the money did help them, this was probably about 2 years ago and things have turned around for them. But from your situation it doesn't sound like the IL's will be making any major changes.

If you go forward, make it one-time (and mare sure that's clear between you and your DH, and the IL's), make it a gift, and don't think about it again.

It's a tough situation, DH and I were really at odds over it. GL!!

[artvandalay]

Wow. I am really sorry. I have not responded because others here have already responded very eloquently what I am feeling.

But I did want to add this: If they are worried about their license fees, then why not sell the car that needs repairs? Perhaps they can sell two cars and carpool and go down to one car?

This would only help them temporarily, but it's something. I'm in the camp of not giving them any money. I'm sorry.. It would be so hard to do this, but they do not seem responsible and do not learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps time for them to file bankruptcy (again).