Bothering vs Bullying

[mom2one]

Hi everyone. I need some help. My DS (age 8 and 2nd grade) has been
accused of bullying another child.

1- please tell me the difference between bullying and bothering
2- when does bothering cross the line to bullying
3- I feel like need to read up on bullying. Please recommend books to me.

Thanks any any help. I am so upset!
Susan

[infomama]

Good info here....http://www.stopbullying.gov/topics/what_is_bullying/index.html

[sste]

Can you tell us the specifics of what happened? I am finding it hard to comment in the abstract . . .

I tend to think that if your child has been accused of bullying there is some sort of social skills issue - - likely involving "bully" and "victim" - - that the adults need to work with all the kids involved on and help guide them. Whether or not your son is actually a "bully" as we might think of it my guess is that this process will only help him develop better social perception, empathy, etc.

[lizzywednesday]

Can you tell us the specifics of what happened? I am finding it hard to comment in the abstract . . .

I tend to think that if your child has been accused of bullying there is some sort of social skills issue - - likely involving "bully" and "victim" - - that the adults need to work with all the kids involved on and help guide them. Whether or not your son is actually a "bully" as we might think of it my guess is that this process will only help him develop better social perception, empathy, etc.

:yeahthat:

I'd written a post and I really felt uncomfortable commenting in the ether, as I was afraid I'd come off as judgy when I didn't want to be.

[mom2one]

I don't think my DS has been bullying. He and his best friend have had a falling out. Things have gone from bad to worse it seems. The other child has been physical to another friend in class. The other child hasbeen to the dean
of students and lost eating lunch with his class one day. I just read the link posted on stopbullying. I don't see my child as a bully or bullying
This other child. I see what he did as normal boy stuff. Now my DS is not 100% innocent, but I feel like some things are being blown out of proportion.
Kids can be mean and bratty, that does not make them a bully.

[Green_Tea]

This is such a hard question to answer, but I think it depends on the intent of the person who is the "perp".

I am not trying to dismiss or underestimate true bullying, because it definitely happens, but it seems like pretty much any conflict between students in which one student is the "perpetrator" and the other student is the "victim" gets labeled as bullying these days, and that doesn't really benefit either student. I think that you need to determine if the intent is truly to antagonize and intimidate (bullying), or that the "bully" is really just struggling with social skills and the "right" way to make friends, deal with conflict and navigate the social landscape. These are very different things, but can make the victim feel the same way. That's why it's important to consider both the victim's feelings AND the perpetrator's intent and point of view.

[sste]

Mom2One -- I think bully is kind of an unfortunate word. I mean, I understand that language being what it is we need some sort of way to describe these conflicts and some heading for the policies we need to develop. But bully I think labels the child rather than the behavior and also sends the parents involved into orbit because the word is so powerful and entirely negative!!

Was your son accused of name-calling? Teasing? Excluding? Hitting or pushing? I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable and want to be respectful of your privacy but normal boy stuff is vague.

This is the thing. In life, we OFTEN confront people who react more or less sensitively, whose perception of our behavior isn't the majority view or may not even be accurate. But we still have to deal with those people and often our job, grade, whatever depends on dealing with those people. That is why I think it is not so much about who is right or wrong but about helping your son develop the skills to figure out if someone is very sensitive or taking his actions the wrong way and to act in a way that avoids those conflicts. If it is the case that the other child is manipulating/fabricating because he is troubled ALSO a useful skill for your son to learn to steer clear of that kind of situation.

Just my two cents. I would be super-upset too.

[elektra]

I agree that it is hard to tell by the limited amount of info here but IMO bullying is about picking on someone who is weaker in some sense, and who is not able to stand up for themselves for whatever reason. I think all of us can smell fear and/or weakness and some people choose to take advantage of that. I think there are truly "bad" kids (not always popular opinion I know) but I think there are also good kids that get caught up in doing bad things but have the capacity to right themselves with a little education on empathy and understanding.
Regardless of whether this is bullying or not, I would talk to my DS and have him stay as far away as possible from the other boy in question.
Are you friends with the other boy's mom? (You mentioned that they used to be best friends.)
I know I got into a fight with my best friend when I was about 10. She had been picking on me and sort of rallying others to get into her camp about how lame/dumb/awful/ugly I was. It really hurt and it culminated in a fist fight between us. Our parents were friends and a few days after they sat us down and we had to apologize to each other and then it was sort of over at that point.

[mom2one]

Thank you for all the advice posted so far. Lots to think about and talk over with my son. SSTE - I would say out Of all the questions you asked. He has been excluding the other child a times, they also have been mad at each other, so it kindly makes sense. I have told him to leave the child alOne all week, but he has not.

I agree with the other poster that bullying is a very negative word and to have my child accused of that is upsetting.
I think there friendship is damaged, I think instead of fixing it there are now hurt feelings. My DS does not want to be his friend anymore, so icant even get him to try and work On this.

The parent accusing my child, is also saying there are two otherboys involved. She is saying it is 3 to 1. I think all 4boys have done something wrong, there are hurt feelings. I do think the other child is lying about some things because he has been denying that he has done anything wrong,but then finally admitted to doing several physical acts over the last few weeks.

It is a big complicated mess.

I am having my ds sit inside at recess and then I am having lunch at school today to monitor things.

I truly just want things fixed.

[sste]

I am reading a book this week about resiliency in children and it has a big focus on modeling behavior and also on teaching kids to view mistakes are opportunities for learning. I think if you can, it would be great to give yourself a day or two to calm down and have a lovely glass of wine and remind yourself that this whole "bully accusation" is an opportunity for learning for your son.

It sounds like it is a "mistake" for your son to keep on seeking out this boy when relations between them are negative. Why don't you ask him what he thinks the best way of handling it is? What are his ideas for reminding himself to "give X his space" for a while until things are better? Emphasize to him that we all have these conflicts and things happen and it is how we learn to get along with people. Once you have your son's ideas, maybe you can approach his teachers and the other parents and jointly try to come up with a plan. I also like the idea of the adults sitting down with the boys - - that is what is so powerful about Elektra's example. The parents involved didn't go the route of accusations and conflict between the parents - - they got everyone together and SHOWED the kids how to work things out and kind of led them through it. In the case of elementary school friendships, it is all fairly fickle so I might have the boys focus on apologizing for hurt feelings and agreeing to to a short-term strategy of steering clear that the teachers will help implement and enforce. Who knows in six months they may be friends again . . .

[Green_Tea]

It sounds like it is a "mistake" for your son to keep on seeking out this boy when relations between them are negative. Why don't you ask him what he thinks the best way of handling it is? What are his ideas for reminding himself to "give X his space" for a while until things are better?

Is he seeking the other child out, though, or is the accuser approaching him? I think that sometimes (and I have no idea of this is the case here, it's just what I have observed in my own DD's classroom) kids DO try to steer clear of someone they conflict with, but that the other child will approach the kid who is keeping their distance and ask to play or join the group. This sort of forces the hand of the kid who is trying to steer clear, and puts them in the position of saying, "No, I don't want to play with you." If there's more than one kid there, it makes it look like a 3 or 4 against one situation, and then the other kid - the one your kid is trying to steer clear of - is suddenly "the victim."

Again, I have no idea if this is how things are playing out. But I have seen it happen a bunch of times in MY DD's social group, and I really feel bad for the kid who is trying to do the right thing by avoiding someone they might conflict with, but ends up looking like the bad guy (at least to the adults involved.)

[daphne]

sste Can you share the name of the book you are reading? My DS struggles with resiliency & I would love to learn more about how to help him.
Thank you!
Sorry to hijack!

[sste]

Daphne, I must credit egoldberg who rec'd this to me. :) It is a good read. Like every paernting book I have ever read it could be condensed to 10% of its length and get its main points across - -there is a nice summary at the front that does that and then you can read the chapters for more detail.

Here is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Resilient-Children-Fostering-Strength/dp/0809297655

Here is the authors' web site:
http://www.raisingresilientkids.com/

HTH. :)

[sste]

Also, greentea, I do agree that from what I have read about this (no actual elementary experience here I probably should disclose!!) . . . a MAJOR issue for the "victim" is that they lack the social skills to avoid kids that don't like them and in fact often persistently seek them out. That def. needs to be addressed as well in a plan for managing the kids' interaction.

I should be clear that I would personally freak out, be crying to all of you, and speed dialing psychologists if my child was either the bully or the bullied. But, eventually I would have to pull up my yoga pants and go to the school and say, "I care about BOTH of these kids. I want my son to have a good experience at school and I want [the "victim"] to have a a good experience at school. They are still learning about social interactions and clearly they need our help here. What kind of plan can we come up with that will stop the immediate problem and also help both kids learn about respecting space and getting along?" I mean, I think you have be the person you want your kid to be, kwim?

[bisous]

You've gotten some good advice. I love what sste said about wanting BOTH children to have a good experience at school. I love that mindset and hope that all parents would care so much about children.

I have to say I'm not a fan of the wide use of the term "bullying". I'm sure there are lots of mean kids out there that intend to harm other children physically or otherwise. But there are lots of interactions between children that are done through lack of proper relationship skills rather than malicious intent to cause harm. Should they be called bullies? I don't really think so. I think it would take an exceptionally mean child to be a bully at age 8 although I don't doubt that they exist. I pretty much think younger than 5 can NEVER be a bully. They're just too little to know better.

[Pennylane]

Never mind.....

Ann

[mom2one]

I thank you all for the wonderful advice. I had my son sit in at first recess and read so there would be no interaction of any kind and he could no be blamed for anything.

I brought him lunch today and had lunch with him. The "other child" left at lunch to go away for the weekend. So at least I don't have to worry about what might happen for the rest of the day.

On another note, we are leaving tomorrow and my DS will miss school next week. I am hoping that some time away will be what everyone involved needs. I will certainly be reading up on things and having important talks with my ds over the next week. (this trip was planned since october)

Hope everyone has a great weekend. Susan

[niccig]

What is the school doing about it? It's happening at school, the teachers need to be doing something to help them deal with this when they're at school.