Final update in #83: Big or small deal about race? Opinions please

[spunkybaby]

DD1 is in 2nd grade. Today she told me that when her class learned about Martin Luther King, Jr. a few weeks ago (to honor MLK Jr. day), her teacher divided the students into two groups based on their skin color. (We are Asian Americans.)

Apparently, she called out one set of children by name and had them stand up at the front of the room. Then she had them sit down. Next, she called out the "darker skin" (DD1's words) children by name and had them stand up at the front of the room. Then she asked each child in the 2nd group to talk about how they felt being called out and separated like this.

DD1 said that her group had to stand in front of the class much longer than the first group because the first group didn't have to say anything. She also told me that she didn't like being separated like that.

DD1's account bothered me on many levels, but I'm not sure if I'm overreacting, so I thought I would ask the wise women (and men!) of the BBB for their opinion--is this something I should bring up to the teacher?

*It bothers me that the children were separated by skin color. I think there are other ways to educate children about discrimination, race, etc. If the teacher wanted to separate the children and teach a lesson about discrimination, she could have chosen something non-race-based a la Dr. Seuss's star-bellied Sneetches or blue eyes/brown eyes.

*It bothers me that the children in the 2nd group were put on the spot to describe their feelings about this exercise while the rest of the class gaped at them. It feels as though they were made to be monkeys on display for the benefit of the other students' "education."

*And oddly, it bothers me that the skin color separation seemed rather arbitrary. DD1 explained that all the children with "darker" skin were put in the 2nd group. She said that she was one of 2 girls in the 2nd group (the other girl is SE Asian). However, I know that at least one other girl in the class is half-Asian. This suggests to me that the teacher did not base this exercise on the students' ethnic heritage but rather on skin color alone.

What do you think? Am I overreacting? Is this worth contacting the teacher to ask about the activity? (I acknowledge that DD1 is not the most reliable reporter and that the teacher may have put this activity in a better context than the one that DD1 is describing.) FWIW, most of the children in DD1's class are Caucasian. The second group was at most 7 or 8 kids out of a class of 26.

And if I do decide to contact the teacher, do you have any suggestions about how to bring it up? The teacher is Caucasian, and we have a decent relationship--not super close but friendly. I doubt that there was any malice intended in this classroom exercise, but I'd like to persuade her that it's not an appropriate classroom activity so that she doesn't repeat it in the future. (She is a very experienced teacher, and I'm worried that she will become defensive if I question this activity.)

[sariana]

That's a tough one. I think you can simply say your daughter was uncomfortable about something that happened at school and ask for clarification as to what the activity entailed.

I don't think you're overreacting for one simple reason: It upset your daughter. Whatever happened, whether justified or not, your daughter was bothered by it; so you deserve some sort of explanation about it.

[mjs64]

Based on your daughter's reporting, I'd feel uncomfortable too. The fact that your daughter said she was uncomfortable would be enough for me to pursue something, even if that something is only finding out more about what happened, and telling the teacher how your daughter felt.

I really don't like how the "minority" students were, quite literally, marginalized in the classroom and that they were the only ones asked to (forced to?) speak. They were put in a pretty vulnerable position. I'm all for teaching kids about discrimination but I don't see why it has to be reenacted in the classroom, especially when one is discriminating according to such a charged and historically hateful and violent determinant. It's not like discrimination, racism, and their attendant violences and material effects are a thing of the past.

Perhaps the reason she divided the kids by skin color rather than by ethnicity is because of the phenomenon of "passing" (appearing white, or not, and thus being subject, or not, to a variety of racist practices) in US history? (I'm probably giving her too much credit). Or maybe she thought the difference in skin color would be more apparent to her 2nd grade audience? Honestly, I'm not comfortable with either division (ethnicity or skin color).

Can you simply ask the teacher to describe the activity and its purpose, telling her that you want to understand it better? Can you tell her that your daughter felt uncomfortable and so you were concerned? I'd start there.

It might be helpful for the teacher to hear how the lesson was "understood" by the "minority" group. Give your daughter a voice here--the teacher perhaps thought she did, but that was a kind of forced speech, not a true opportunity because of the difference in her and your daughter's respective positions of power.

ETA: I would also talk to your daughter and let her know your stance on the activity. I'm sorry that happened.

[american_mama]

I'd be over the top livid for all the reasons you said. My children are mixed race and don't need to defend, explain, discuss, display, represent or choose a racial identity for a teacher's poorly thought out classroom experiment. Elementary school children can form group allegiances based on nothing - one experiment related to racial stereotyping had children randomly assigned to a red Tshirt or blue T shirt group, and children in each group believed that their group was better for WEEKS after the experiment ended. This teacher easily could have set up far more problems with insiders/outsiders than she think she solved.

Reallly, this teacher needs to hear some strong words about how children feel being singled out and put on display about their racial identity - an inherently personal and loaded subject. She needs to hear someone say how her little experiement only reinforced the arbitrariness and divisiveness of racial categories. That the lesson ultimate lesson was lost on the children.

You have a day to think of what to say and I'm sure many posters will have suggestions of how to approach it mildly. But I'd be prepared to burn a bridge about this. Maybe nice wouldn't make the same impression as outrage.

Gotta go - vomiting preschooler in the house.

[mjs64]

I'd be over the top livid for all the reasons you said. My children are mixed race and don't need to defend, explain, discuss, display, represent or choose a racial identity for a teacher's poorly thought out classroom experiment. Elementary school children can form group allegiances based on nothing - one experiment related to racial stereotyping had children randomly assigned to a red Tshirt or blue T shirt group, and children in each group believed that their group was better for WEEKS after the experiment ended. This teacher easily could have set up far more problems with insiders/outsiders than she think she solved.

Reallly, this teacher needs to hear some strong words about how children feel being singled out and put on display about their racial identity - an inherently personal and loaded subject. She needs to hear someone say how her little experiement only reinforced the arbitrariness and divisiveness of racial categories. That the lesson ultimate lesson was lost on the children.

You have a day to think of what to say and I'm sure many posters will have suggestions of how to approach it mildly. But I'd be prepared to burn a bridge about this. Maybe nice wouldn't make the same impression as outrage.

Gotta go - vomiting preschooler in the house.

My kid is mixed, too. We just haven't gotten to elementary school yet. My post came from my own graduate work on race rather than how I've seen it affect my kid's life. But what american_mama has said about the longterm effects of an activity like this makes a lot of sense. I vaguely remember the study (isn't there a documentary?) about this red shirt/blue shirt idea or the like.

I'm worried and mad for my kid, and for yours, spunkybaby, and yours, american_mama.

[citymama]

That is crazy. I can't understand what the teacher was thinking. Talk about it, read about it, but don't make second graders have to go through it. What, the white kids should feel like oppressors? and the darker skinned kids should feel what exactly? So ridiculous and insensitive. I would talk to a few other parents and raise it with her as a group.

[TwinFoxes]

I'd be over the top livid for all the reasons you said. My children are mixed race and don't need to defend, explain, discuss, display, represent or choose a racial identity for a teacher's poorly thought out classroom experiment. Elementary school children can form group allegiances based on nothing - one experiment related to racial stereotyping had children randomly assigned to a red Tshirt or blue T shirt group, and children in each group believed that their group was better for WEEKS after the experiment ended. This teacher easily could have set up far more problems with insiders/outsiders than she think she solved.

Reallly, this teacher needs to hear some strong words about how children feel being singled out and put on display about their racial identity - an inherently personal and loaded subject. She needs to hear someone say how her little experiement only reinforced the arbitrariness and divisiveness of racial categories. That the lesson ultimate lesson was lost on the children.

You have a day to think of what to say and I'm sure many posters will have suggestions of how to approach it mildly. But I'd be prepared to burn a bridge about this. Maybe nice wouldn't make the same impression as outrage.


I agree with this. I'd be seriously p.o.'d. She basically presented them with ready made cliques. (I'm assuming it all happened as described). Her experience makes no sense. The kids who may have already have experience being treated differently (or heard about it from relatives) were the ones who got separated, I think that is just mean. And like PP said, the white kids were supposed to feel like oppressors?

[Melaine]

That's nuts. Maybe for highschool, a similar exercise would have been a decent idea but for SECOND grade? NO way.

[snowbunnies300]

Oprah did something like this years ago on her show. I can't remember all of it but she did it more than once when discussing the differences between races. Perhapse the teacher saw it then or heard about it and decided to try it herself. Only way to know is to call the teacher.

[wellyes]

*And oddly, it bothers me that the skin color separation seemed rather arbitrary. DD1 explained that all the children with "darker" skin were put in the 2nd group. She said that she was one of 2 girls in the 2nd group (the other girl is Indian American). However, I know that at least one other girl in the class is half-Asian (her mother is Chinese, so the girl's last name is not Chinese but rather a typical Caucasian last name). This suggests to me that the teacher did not base this exercise on the students' ethnic heritage but rather on skin color alone

I think it'd be much worse if it had been based on race. I think it's an exercise meant to illustrate how arbitrary racism is. I think it was well-intentioned. But. I know there is some nasty history of dividing by skin tone within the black community, historically ("paper bag test"). It is extremely icky to think of an exercise that puts Octavia Spencer on one side of the room, talking about her feelings about skin color, while Halle Berry is on the other watching. Plus, there is a rather icky tendancy among white people to talk about how ideal and beautiful mixed-race children are. Kids seeing some of those kids on one side and some on the other is just really troublesome.

So, yeah, I don't think it was a good idea.
I'm gonna guess this teacher is white.

[MamaInMarch]

http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Race-on-The-Oprah-Show-A-25-Year-Look-Back/4

Here is the Oprah thing.


I think I would be angry. There are lots and lots of ways to teach children about racism but that is not one of them, IMO.

[alexsmommy]

I am African-American. I would not be angry per se, but I'd definitely give the teacher some constructive feedback about better ways to go about this. Our country stinks at discussing race so I would assume her intentions were positive but she needs some guidance on how to approach it in a better way in the future. I would not come out guns blazing because that might cause her to stop trying to address the issue in the future. As a country we need to raise children who are comfortable discussing and celebrating racial differences, but there is little guidance in many communities as to how to go about this. I see it as a teachable moment for the teacher.

Now if this happened to my DS1 he would have been uncomfortable/upset too, and I would have needed to use is as a teachable moment for him about both race and about people having good intentions but not understanding how to go about things in the best way possible. I try to admit my parenting mistakes to my kids and point out when other adults make mistakes as well in a constructive manner (on my good parenting days that is lol)

[123LuckyMom]

I think this is terrible, and I would definitely take it up with the school so it never happens again! I would not have felt as strongly had the experiment been a red/blue tee shirt thing, though that teacher obviously handled that lesson poorly as well. Your DCs teacher basically subjected those children to racism and then asked them to describe how it felt. That's not an appropriate educational technique. In my mind it's akin to-- and I know this is a drastic example-- taking girls to the front of the classroom, subjecting them to some form of sexual harassment, and then asking them to discuss how it feels. This teacher needs some additional training. I'm sure her intentions were good, but her methodology basically perpetrated racism on the students of her class. NOT OKAY!!! For older children, arbitrary role playing and discussion can be helpful, but this was waaaay out of line and educationally unsound.

[ha98ed14]

Plus, there is a rather icky tendancy among white people to talk about how ideal and beautiful mixed-race children are. Kids seeing some of those kids on one side and some on the other is just really troublesome.


Guilty of this. BFF is white (eastern european Jewish to be specific) and her DH is Jamaican of African decent. She and I have had conversations about how beautiful mixed race children can be, and specifically how hers will be. Is the problem that we think this? Or only if we say it to a mixed race child?

FWIW, my own child, who is completely Caucasian and has the classic blonde-blue coloring, knows that people think she is beautiful because people stop us all the time and tell her. She's old enough to know what they are talking about. I think the possible problem of kids thinking themselves better than others because they are more beautiful extends to all races. It's not ideal by any means, but it exists just as it does with being skinny/ fat and bald/ full head of hair in adult men and women.

[Jai]

I am Black/African American as well, I agree with wellyes and alexsmommy.

I believe that the teacher's intentions were in the right place, but the exercise was executed poorly. I like the idea of the red/blue shirt idea better. That way when the children take the shirts off, the experiment is clearly over.

[spunkybaby]

I think it'd be much worse if it had been based on race. I think it's an exercise meant to illustrate how arbitrary racism is. I think it was well-intentioned. But. I know there is some nasty history of dividing by skin tone within the black community, historically ("paper bag test"). It is extremely icky to think of an exercise that puts Octavia Spencer on one side of the room, talking about her feelings about skin color, while Halle Berry is on the other watching. Plus, there is a rather icky tendancy among white people to talk about how ideal and beautiful mixed-race children are. Kids seeing some of those kids on one side and some on the other is just really troublesome.

So, yeah, I don't think it was a good idea.
I'm gonna guess this teacher is white.

Yes, the teacher is Caucasian.

I feel mixed about separating by skin color/race. The whole exercise bothers me (and I'm glad that just about everyone else agrees that it was a poorly devised exercise), but I feel like having the mixed-race children sit with the white children is somehow "favoring" their white ancestry. It's complicated, but I think this exercise might be damaging to the mixed-race children's racial identity in subtly encouraging them to identify as white and downplay their other ethnic heritage.

I'm probably not expressing this well...It's not that I wanted the mixed-race children to also feel isolated...basically, everything about this exercise bothers me!

[spunkybaby]

Guilty of this. BFF is white (eastern european Jewish to be specific) and her DH is Jamaican of African decent. She and I have had conversations about how beautiful mixed race children can be, and specifically how hers will be. Is the problem that we think this? Or only if we say it to a mixed race child?

FWIW, my own child, who is completely Caucasian and has the classic blonde-blue coloring, knows that people think she is beautiful because people stop us all the time and tell her. She's old enough to know what they are talking about. I think the possible problem of kids thinking themselves better than others because they are more beautiful extends to all races. It's not ideal by any means, but it exists just as it does with being skinny/ fat and bald/ full head of hair in adult men and women.

Of course society has beauty conceptions that are not fair to everyone.

But it's one thing to acknowledge these societal constructions/influences and another thing to perpetuate them in the classroom. Would you feel differently if I had said that the teacher divided the children into skinny/chubby kids and asked the chubby kids how they felt about standing up in front of the class while the skinny kids sat down?

Also, the problem with idealizing the beauty of mixed-race children is that it sometimes implies (subtly) that other children are not beautiful--in essence that it's better to mix in the Caucasian and lighten minorities up so that they look better.

[wellyes]

Guilty of this. BFF is white (eastern european Jewish to be specific) and her DH is Jamaican of African decent. She and I have had conversations about how beautiful mixed race children can be, and specifically how hers will be. Is the problem that we think this? Or only if we say it to a mixed race child?Oh, absolutely not a problem! Of course not! Not that I'm the arbiter of what's OK.....I was more referring to the weird fetishization of biracial kids as the 'most beautiful'. No one ever says white kids are the best looking, or dark-skinned kids, because that is racist and offensive. But saying, as a whole, mixed kids are the ideal is OK somehow. Really I think it's a (wholly unintentional) kick to dark skinned children, based on the history.

[spunkybaby]

I would talk to a few other parents and raise it with her as a group.

Hmm...I'm not sure exactly how I would approach this. I think the teacher is more likely to feel defensive if I come with a group of other parents. I don't know how much the other students told their parents (I only found out yesterday, and the activity happened almost a month ago; DD1 does not tell me much about what happens at school).

I wish someone had told me earlier what had happened, but I don't know if other parents would feel the same way. I would feel funny mass-emailing a group or subgroup of the parents, and it's hard to catch parents to talk with them in person at school since some work, carpool, etc.

[Uno-Mom]

I haven't read all the responses so I'm sorry if I'm just repeating.

I've heard of similar things being done, with more thoughtful engineering, with highschoolers. The whole point of the exercise with teens is to cause uneasiness and change their thjnking patterns, open up a different perspective to them. I bet you anything that this teacher either read about or experienced one of those lessons for teens, was inspired and wanted to reproduce it for her audience of kids. Problem is...2nd graders are WAY to young for this kind of approach!

[spunkybaby]

I haven't read all the responses so I'm sorry if I'm just repeating.

I've heard of similar things being done, with more thoughtful engineering, with highschoolers. The whole point of the exercise with teens is to cause uneasiness and change their thjnking patterns, open up a different perspective to them. I bet you anything that this teacher either read about or experienced one of those lessons for teens, was inspired and wanted to reproduce it for her audience of kids. Problem is...2nd graders are WAY to young for this kind of approach!

Yes, I've read about these studies as well. But I think typically the lesson uses an arbitrary split that is not based on race or skin color...such as the different colored t-shirts mentioned by some PPs.

And I agree that it seems more appropriate for high school. I was just a bit flabbergasted and sad that DD1 had to experience this in 2nd grade and that it was not well thought-out.

[AngB]

In my child psychology class, we watched a documentary on a teacher who did a similar experiment with kids (a group of mostly white kids from what I remember). I don't have a problem with the age group (teacher in the video did it with 3rd graders, by eye color, she did it for an entire day, the first day the blue eye kids were superior and the second day the brown eye kids were superior, or something like that), I do have a problem with how she went about dividing them and it doesn't sound like there was much point to it. I think it's an okay experiment but poorly thought out from what you have described.

Here is the documentary we watched, which I found pretty fascinating when i saw it several years ago:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

[spunkybaby]

In my child psychology class, we watched a documentary on a teacher who did a similar experiment with kids (a group of mostly white kids from what I remember). I don't have a problem with the age group (teacher in the video did it with 3rd graders, by eye color, she did it for an entire day, the first day the blue eye kids were superior and the second day the brown eye kids were superior, or something like that), I do have a problem with how she went about dividing them and it doesn't sound like there was much point to it. I think it's an okay experiment but poorly thought out from what you have described.

Here is the documentary we watched, which I found pretty fascinating when i saw it several years ago:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

Yes, I'm aware of the blue eyes/brown eyes classroom experiment, but I have mixed feelings about the long-term effects on the children involved (see the last part of the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott).)

I think these types of "lessons" need to be very carefully thought out and designed because of the potential for unintended repercussions.

I'm a little surprised that no one thinks I'm overreacting, but I wonder if people who do think I'm overreacting are afraid to post with that sentiment since it's a "race" issue. Maybe I should have posted a poll so people could vote anonymously.

[Globetrotter]

Yes, I've read about these studies as well. But I think typically the lesson uses an arbitrary split that is not based on race or skin color...such as the different colored t-shirts mentioned by some PPs.

And I agree that it seems more appropriate for high school. I was just a bit flabbergasted and sad that DD1 had to experience this in 2nd grade and that it was not well thought-out.

:yeahthat: I think it's more appropriate for older kids or adults to discuss the subtleties of race relations and where mixed race kids fit in, etc… In second grade, she should have divided them by shirt color. Even eye color would have been ok, IMO.

[spunkybaby]

I am African-American. I would not be angry per se, but I'd definitely give the teacher some constructive feedback about better ways to go about this. Our country sticks at discussing race so I would assume her intentions were positive but she needs some guidance on how to approach it in a better way in the future. I would not come out guns blazing because that might cause her to stop trying to address the issue in the future. As a country we need to raise children who are comfortable discussing and celebrating racial differences, but there is little guidance in many communities as to how to go about this. I see it as a teachable moment for the teacher.

Do you have any suggestions on what I should recommend to the teacher in place of this exercise? Honestly, I'm not sure what to say.

[sntm]

I don't know if there is a great alternative - but you could simply say that DD mentioned this to you and how it upset her, that you understand that the exercise was a well-intentioned activity to emphasize the problems with judging people based on race but that you are concerned that the kids may have been too young to appreciate her point and by using a real difference between them instead of an arbitrary one, you may have inadvertantly encouraged the problem you were trying to teach them to avoid.

[daisymommy]

I would be over the top livid. I would never find this kind of exercise okay to do in class...unless they were much older such as in highschool. No way in 2nd grade!

Many children, including my own at this age, aren't even aware of race issues, feeling badly about your skin color, discrimination, etc. and I would not want a teacher to be bringing it all up for the first time with them in such a fashion.

I would complain to the principle. Not acceptable IMO.

Edited to add: I think a much better thing to do would be to read a beautiful book celebrating diversity, rather than drawing attention to differences with any negativity associated with it (hope that made sense).
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0688170625/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

[Uno-Mom]

Yes, I'm aware of the blue eyes/brown eyes classroom experiment, but I have mixed feelings about the long-term effects on the children involved (see the last part of the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott).)

I think these types of "lessons" need to be very carefully thought out and designed because of the potential for unintended repercussions.

I'm a little surprised that no one thinks I'm overreacting, but I wonder if people who do think I'm overreacting are afraid to post with that sentiment since it's a "race" issue. Maybe I should have posted a poll so people could vote anonymously. I'd think you were over-reacting if you were now writing the teacher off as a hate-monger and trying to get her fired! But you're not. You have a very valid concern and you're trying to follow up on it. I totally agree with you!

I hope the teacher can accept your constructive feedback.

Setting aside the whole question of whether they should be discussing racial tension at all in 2nd grade (and that's a BIG question!) one thing I dislike about her approach is how it put young children on the spot. It's that singling out aspect, having the up there and demanding that they come up with something to say. That isn't something a 2nd grader should have to handle.

On the other hand...if a 2nd grade teacher invited a particularly confident, well-spoken child to prepare AHEAD of time and share some feelings about having a different skin color than most of their friends... I'd be more supportive. IF there was that particular child who WANTED to do that! (For example, I could see my god daughter doing that - she was adopted from India.)

This isn't about race but I remember being in 2nd grade with a boy who had a life-threatening heart condition. (He died when we were in 3rd grade.) He was a remarkably confident child and I still remember when he was invited to share his feelings of being different and singled out. It isn't at all the same as discussing race, so I hesitate to draw the comparison, but I remember that there was a child who did share his experiences in an amazing way. It made a huge impression on me and my friends!

[maestramommy]

In my child psychology class, we watched a documentary on a teacher who did a similar experiment with kids (a group of mostly white kids from what I remember). I don't have a problem with the age group (teacher in the video did it with 3rd graders, by eye color, she did it for an entire day, the first day the blue eye kids were superior and the second day the brown eye kids were superior, or something like that), I do have a problem with how she went about dividing them and it doesn't sound like there was much point to it. I think it's an okay experiment but poorly thought out from what you have described.

Here is the documentary we watched, which I found pretty fascinating when i saw it several years ago:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

I was going to reference this documentary. I saw it in a college psych class. I just couldn't remember how old the kids were. Actually wondering if the teacher saw this film, since it's old and well known. Agree that it was probably poorly executed, though the kids in this film were pretty upset by the experiment as well! I do think the parents were informed beforehand though.

I honestly don't know how I would react if this were done with one of my kids in 2nd grade. Because even though they are purely Taiwanese, one is white, one is tan (that's what we call it), and one is dark. No other way to describe it to them right now, and they ask, "What color am I? my sister? my other sister?" all the time. I have no idea what their thoughts are on the subject because we only talk about things when they ask, and they haven't asked.

[hellokitty]

Spunkybaby, I am asian american too and since my DH is too, my kids are full asian. We live in an area that is NOT diverse, there are less than 1% asians. I grew up in an area where I was always the only non-white kid in my class. In 7th grade, my social studies teacher made me stand up and have the entire class look at me, pointing out that my eyes and skin looked different from everyone else (who were white). I was mortified, but too scared to stand up to the teacher. We were studying asian at that time (how crazy is it that in one yr, african, asian and ohio history were crammed into one f'ing yr???), and I guess she thought it would be really educational to make me feel like crap in from to of my fellow classmates. She had also made disparaging remarks about how, "we" (the US) helped the japanese, only for the japanese to end up being economically successful. She said this in a very hateful tone and looked straight at me. I'm not even japanese, I'm taiwanese.

So, I can TOTALLY imagine how uncomfortable your dd felt! Esp for a child who is very aware and more sensitive to things like this (and in 2nd grade, I moved to a new school and my teacher had me teach the entire class how to use chopsticks and I felt awful about it, even though I knew the teacher didn't mean to be racist, it felt racist to me for her to make me do that). I would be livid if I were in your shoes. I don't believe the teacher did it to be mean or racist, BUT I think that she is clueless, b/c her exercise was frankly DUMB and over-the-heads of 2nd graders. My oldest son is in 2nd grade and we have talked a little bit about race and while he understands there is a difference, he still gets confused about it. I think that kids realize that there are differences, but if that teacher thinks that she is going to do some exercise about race that will stick with these kids for their entire lives, she's delusional. Not only was it done incorrectly, but IF a teacher were to do an exercise like this, it would be better suited for teenagers, NOT 2nd graders!

So, no, you are NOT overreacting. I would be mad! I would however, approach the teacher in a calm manner and explain to her what is bothering you. I bet she is TOTALLY clueless and didn't even realize how uncomfortable (or dumb) the race exercise was. I wouldn't get in her face about it and try to make her feel bad about it, but I really think that she most likely did not realize how poorly executed her exercise was and how age inappropriate it was, esp from the POV of the children who were not in the majority.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I grew up in an area where I was always the only non-white kid in my class. In 7th grade, my social studies teacher made me stand up and have the entire class look at me, pointing out that my eyes and skin looked different from everyone else (who were white). I was mortified, but too scared to stand up to the teacher.

OMG, and i thought i was the only one who had something like this happen to them! i am not asian, but am hispanic and I too grew up in a very white, not racially diverse area (Ohio), plus my parents were immigrants whose first language was not English. I do remember once a teacher (3rd grade) asking me to read a book to the class in in Spanish (back then, Spanish was really a foreign language and I'm guessing they had never heard it before) and I did, and then she (the teacher) and other kids started LAUGHING at me as I was reading!! :( Horrible. And yeah, i do recall other instances where teachers would use me as an "example" to teach about discrimination. Even though they were trying to teach that discrimination was wrong and all that, I still h.a.t.e.d how i was always the one singled out. It did indeed make me feel like crap. Heck, even in high school in CA (still 99% white), we were coming back from a class trip to Mexico (building houses) and when the border guard didn't check our van, a classmate sitting near me commented "Wow, I can't believe they didn't even check our car. I mean, we could have snuck her (pointing to me) in." I wanted to snap back that she was probably more Mexican than I was (i am from South America). I'm sure she didn't purposely be mean about it, but really, some people are just SO clueless.

Anyway, as PP said, i'd approach it calmly, and explain how it made your DD feel bad and uncomfortable. I'm sure she had no malicious intent, and was trying to make a point, but yeah, I'd be soo upset too, and I think she needs to know that this is not ok :hug: I get that such an experiment may be useful for much older kids or adults, but not for 2nd graders.

[Jo..]

I will never forget a lesson in Grade School about Hitler and his Master race.

First, the entire class stood. Then, the teacher asked anyone with darker skin to sit down. That was one or two kids. Then she asked anyone who didn't have an "A" average to sit down. That was 90% of the class. Then she asked anyone who was not tall (she said over a certain height) to sit. I was left with two or three tall light skinned "A" classmates, and I was so happy.

Then she asked everyone who did not have blonde hair or blue eyes to sit. Man that crushed me. I was out of the running.

At the end of the lesson, there was one tall, smart, blonde boy standing. And he was told she would have been all that was left if Hitler had succeeded. The rest of us would be executed.

That lesson stuck with me, and after 30++ years still resonates. I can see how such lessons are offensive. But....wow, they stick with you. If you are trying to prove a point about racism, etc...They just stick.

But I admiit that if I was a darker-skinned girl stuck in front of the class for a lecture, I'd be super upset.

Dunno if the teacher is a moron or a genius. Either way, good or bad, this lesson will stick with her, and you need to talk, talk, talk about it.

[mousemom]

In my child psychology class, we watched a documentary on a teacher who did a similar experiment with kids (a group of mostly white kids from what I remember). I don't have a problem with the age group (teacher in the video did it with 3rd graders, by eye color, she did it for an entire day, the first day the blue eye kids were superior and the second day the brown eye kids were superior, or something like that), I do have a problem with how she went about dividing them and it doesn't sound like there was much point to it. I think it's an okay experiment but poorly thought out from what you have described.

Here is the documentary we watched, which I found pretty fascinating when i saw it several years ago:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html
When I was in first grade, my teacher did an activity like this when we were discussing Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and racism. I don't remember many of the activities we did in 1st grade, but this one made an impression that stuck with me for a long time. We were divided by eye color and one group was made to wait longer for certain things (I don't remember exactly, but it was like one group got to line up first or the teacher called on one group first. Don't remember if we switched half way through.) Afterwards, we discussed how it made us feel. I don't remember being upset per se but it definitely opened my eyes to what it would feel like to be treated differently based on how one looked. To me, this was a valuable activity. But I think using eye color or hair color is different than dividing based on skin color. In this case, it sounds like it needed better planning and follow-up.

[hellokitty]

OMG, and i thought i was the only one who had something like this happen to them! i am not asian, but am hispanic and I too grew up in a very white, not racially diverse area (Ohio), plus my parents were immigrants whose first language was not English. I do remember once a teacher (3rd grade) asking me to read a book to the class in in Spanish (back then, Spanish was really a foreign language and I'm guessing they had never heard it before) and I did, and then she (the teacher) and other kids started LAUGHING at me as I was reading!! :( Horrible. And yeah, i do recall other instances where teachers would use me as an "example" to teach about discrimination. Even though they were trying to teach that discrimination was wrong and all that, I still h.a.t.e.d how i was always the one singled out. It did indeed make me feel like crap. Heck, even in high school in CA (still 99% white), we were coming back from a class trip to Mexico (building houses) and when the border guard didn't check our van, a classmate sitting near me commented "Wow, I can't believe they didn't even check our car. I mean, we could have snuck her (pointing to me) in." I wanted to snap back that she was probably more Mexican than I was (i am from South America). I'm sure she didn't purposely be mean about it, but really, some people are just SO clueless


I'm sorry you had to deal with this sort of crap too, esp the entire class and teacher laughing at you, when it wasn't even your idea to read that book in spanish! I always HATED being singled out by any of my teachers b/c of my race. I do remember also being asked many times for my mom to bring in chinese food for the class, b/c the teacher thought it would be a nice idea for, "cultural" reasons . My mom being an immigrant and being completely oblivious to the importance of fitting in and not being singled out, always thought that these situations were awesome, ugh, and she would just feed into these expectations of stereotypes with a lot of eagerness, even when I begged her to just leave it alone.

[DrSally]

It sounds like a very crude and ill-thought out attempt to teach something. I wouldn't be happy.

[MontrealMum]

I agree with PP and think it's a big deal for many of the reasons that have already been articulated. I think that this is a case of someone that had good intentions, but poor follow through. One of the (many) things that bothers me about it is this:



Many children, including my own at this age, aren't even aware of race issues, feeling badly about your skin color, discrimination, etc. and I would not want a teacher to be bringing it all up for the first time with them in such a fashion.




...along with the singling out and age-inappropriateness, as well as the fact that your DD is upset. I wouldn't be overly confrontational about it, but I would try and suss the teacher out as to what happened, and inform her about what your DD's reactions were.

[wellyes]

I am astonished that teachers single out kids to talk about race. That's awful!! Did they also ask Caucasian kids to talk about their feelings of experiencing white privlege? I'm sure that wouldn't go over well, but it's no more ridiculously offensive.

[spunkybaby]

Thanks, everyone, for all your support and for your helpful advice on how to broach this topic with DD1's teacher.

I am sorry for all the PPs who experienced the pain and embarrassment of being separated and singled out for race/ethnicity/skin color. Ms.pacman--your story of your teacher and classmates laughing at you horrifies me--as does hellokitty's story of her teacher pointing out her Asian features! I am so sorry for the insensitivity and downright cruelty that you both experienced! And msj4 I share your worry and anger on behalf of all of our kids :(

I agree with daisymommy's statement that younger children may not be aware of race issues yet, and bringing them up in such a fashion is not helpful at all...and possibly damaging. I think DD1 has been slowly becoming aware of her ethnic identity over the last year, but it had not yet occurred to her that she might be discriminated against or singled out because of her ethnic heritage/skin color. I do not appreciate her teacher bringing that awareness to her in this way. :(

Honestly, I can't get over the feeling that DD1 and the other "darker-skinned" children were made to be examples for the rest of the class's benefit. It just feels wrong to make some children feel bad so that they can describe their feelings to the rest.

As a minority person, I sometimes get tired of having to "educate" others about issues of race. My Caucasian friends often tell me that they don't see people in terms of color, and I sometimes tell them (depends if I am in the mood or not...sometimes I just let it go) that the ability to be "color-blind" is a mark of privilege because they are white. I do not have the option not to see in terms of race/ethnicity/color/etc. because that is always how I am seen and perceived.

But so it goes. I will talk to DD1's teacher and update here after the conversation. Thanks again to all of you for helping me process this and for reinforcing my conviction that this definitely needs addressing.

[hellokitty]

I agree with daisymommy's statement that younger children may not be aware of race issues yet, and bringing them up in such a fashion is not helpful at all...and possibly damaging. I think DD1 has been slowly becoming aware of her ethnic identity over the last year, but it had not yet occurred to her that she might be discriminated against or singled out because of her ethnic heritage/skin color. I do not appreciate her teacher bringing that awareness to her in this way. :(

Honestly, I can't get over the feeling that DD1 and the other "darker-skinned" children were made to be examples for the rest of the class's benefit. It just feels wrong to make some children feel bad so that they can describe their feelings to the rest.

As a minority person, I sometimes get tired of having to "educate" others about issues of race. My Caucasian friends often tell me that they don't see people in terms of color, and I sometimes tell them (depends if I am in the mood or not...sometimes I just let it go) that the ability to be "color-blind" is a mark of privilege because they are white. I do not have the option not to see in terms of race/ethnicity/color/etc. because that is always how I am seen and perceived.

But so it goes. I will talk to DD1's teacher when I volunteer in the class on Wednesday and ask to speak to her either during the kids' morning recess time or after school. I will update here after the conversation. Thanks again to all of you for helping me process this and for reinforcing my conviction that this definitely needs addressing.

I identify with your post quite a bit. My kids are still trying to figure things out (DS1 just turned 8, DS2 is 6.5 yrs old). One thing we have always taught them since they were in preschool (b/c DS1 had an incident in preschool where ppl kept asking him where he was adopted from... there are more asian adoptees in our area than asian kids with asian parents, so a lot of ppl think that asian kids who speak english w/o an accent are adopted) is that no matter what, they are American and nobody should tell them otherwise. I had a chuckle a few wks ago when a boy at an after school activity came up to ask one of my older boys, "where" he was from. DS2 very quickly said, "I'm american, just like you." He said it with confidence and I loved it. I did not have to step in, and the other boy did not try to tell him otherwise, you could tell that he was surprised by the answer, but accepted it.

As for being the cultural ambassador, yeah I feel the same.exact.way. If it is a friend who asks me about it, I am more than willing to talk to them about it. However, it drives me BONKERS (to the point where I probably act hostile), when total strangers that I have never met before, feel the need to immediately hone in on the fact that I am asian and start asking me stupid questions and comments. "Where are you from?" When I respond back with what state or city I am from, they get irritated and say, "No, you KNOW what I mean, where are you REALLY from?" Yes, the audacity, some ppl need a smack in the head! "Wow, your english is really GOOD!" "What's your REAL name?" "I LOVE thai food!" This comment after they find out I'm taiwanese and then I get to make them feel stupid and point out that taiwan and thailand are NOT the same thing. Usually I am met with a blank look, b/c they still don't, "get" it. "Are you Korean? I know someone who is Korean." Or some idiot that just randomly tries to talk to you in an asian language w/o any idea if you even KNOW that language or are of that ethnicity and when you just stare back at them, they don't seem to understand that they are the ones being rude and worse yet, seem so surprised that you aren't whatever they thought you would be to fulfill their lame expectations.

I am very guarded about it, b/c I've had many soured experiences where I thought that I fit in, and then some unenlightened person decides to march up to me and basically demands very personal information about me (that they would normally NEVER ask anyone who they did not perceive as being foreign), w/o knowing me at all. I've actually gotten rude back a few times, asking the other person what country they are from in return. When they get huffy and say, "I'm american, of course," I sometimes give them a lecture that unless they are native american, nobody is truly american, they have roots from elsewhere. Then these same type of ppl have the nerve to get irritated with me, since I did not give them answer that they wanted, and b/c I gave them a taste of their own medicine back. I think your talk to those who claim that they don't see color is AWESOME!

Anyway, I really hope your talk with the teacher goes well. I have a feeling you will be nervous, I would too. However, if the teacher is a good one, she will take in your comments and suggestions and realize that she made a bad move and not do the same exercise again.

[spunkybaby]

"I LOVE thai food!" This comment after they find out I'm taiwanese and then I get to make them feel stupid and point out that taiwan and thailand are NOT the same thing. Usually I am met with a blank look, b/c they still don't, "get" it.

We are Taiwanese American too, so I totally get it. Have you seen this video (http://taiwaneseamerican.org/census2010/) that was circulating before the 2010 census? It mentions that Taiwanese does NOT equal Thai and is pretty fun to watch.


Anyway, I really hope your talk with the teacher goes well. I have a feeling you will be nervous, I would too. However, if the teacher is a good one, she will take in your comments and suggestions and realize that she made a bad move and not do the same exercise again.

Thanks for your support! :heartbeat:

[AnnieW625]

I honestly don't know what I would have said as I was never part of an exercise in a class like that. I would really have to evaluate the situation if it were to happen with kids, however I think 2nd grade is a bit too young. There is no easy way to teach children about race. I hate to say it but being blunt and just stating the facts than trying to do some fancy exercise to show how one race is different from the other. I think the teacher probably did the exercise she did because she was too afraid of offending anyone because you just never know esp. if the class was mix raced or had African American students in it how they might react to being taught about the Civil Rights movement.

My girls are 1/4 Hispanic, and 3/4s white. DD1 looks quite Hispsnic compared to DD2.

[sweetsue98]

I think there are other ways of educating children on race then what the teacher did.

[smiles33]

I've been following along this thread and just haven't quite known what to say that might be helpful. I can see how the teacher might have been well-intentioned, but I know my Mama Bear protective instincts would be flaring up if my DD1 came home with this same story. I'm glad you have had some time to think about this, as I bet I would have gone out with guns blazing if I had a meeting or happened to see the teacher on the same day. Nevertheless, even with the passage of some time, I can't help but think it will be a sensitive discussion because it involves race.

People (especially well-intentioned ones) hate it when others "accuse" them of being racist even if you are very careful to never use the "racism" word and just explain that it was hurtful for your DD to be put on the spot because of her racial identity. I also find that some people who become defensive will then discount your legitimate concerns and chalk it up to "the PC police being sensitive."

In any event, not sure if my ramblings are helpful at all but wanted to just echo what others have said--the situation was ill-conceived and I hope you are able to find a good resolution so it doesn't happen to future students of color.

Good luck with the Wed. meeting.

[BabyMine]

Kids are aware of different races from a very young age.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html

I knew I was different because children would make fun of my weight. This happened way before 2nd grade. I would have loved to had a teacher explain in that way then have them do a worksheet. I don't mind if M or TT are uncomfortable when learning certain topics.

Last year M wanted to know why we were so light skinned and how he could get darker. I explained that we are all different shades and if everyone were the same the world would be boring. We are very lucky to live in a very diverse area so he is immersed and learns different cultures, religions, races, ethnicity....ect.

As for MLK we teach that his meaning transcends race. It applies to all areas in life and he spoke up for what he thought was right. He was a unighter not a divider.

*Before I started this forum race was a very sensitive subject. I was accused of being racist when I was 16 yo and worked in a pharmacy. A lady called me racist because her insurance wasn't accepted at our pharmacy, which I nicely explained, and I gave her options in the area where it would be accepted. That has haunted me ever since.

[hellokitty]

We are Taiwanese American too, so I totally get it. Have you seen this video (http://taiwaneseamerican.org/census2010/) that was circulating before the 2010 census? It mentions that Taiwanese does NOT equal Thai and is pretty fun to watch.



Thanks for your support! :heartbeat:

Lol, I almost forgot about that video! Oh and it's funny, DH is korean, and my kids get REALLY confused when ppl ask them, "what" they are. They say, "I'm half of a korean and half of a taiwanese." I am sure that ppl probably are like, "huh?" I can't wait to send my kids to TAF (Taiwanese American Foundation). It's a week long summer camp for taiwanese american (and canadian) kids, it's hosted in the midwest, but open to ppl all over the country. I went for yrs and yrs and it was seriously the only reason I did't become a complete banana and learned to have pride in my roots. I also made some wonderful friends, I think it helps a lot, esp if you grow up in an area without very many asians. My boys are technically old enough this summer to go, but I'm not sure I am ready for them to go to a wk long camp (at a campus) w/o me. Too bad parents can't go to camp for a wk with them, lol. www.tafworld.org

[Jo..]

Kids are aware of different races from a very young age.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html

I agree with this. Both of my kids notice different skin colors, and we talk about it when it comes up.

Adam has asked me several times why he can't be "brown" like his friend Maya, because her skin is so pretty.

The thing that strikes me the most when re-reading this thread is the different experiences of people made to stand in front of the class to illustrate a lesson. In my case, I was proud to be one of the few people standing, and crushed when I had to sit. In other cases, the children left standing felt awkward and uncomfortable.

I'm not sure where the teacher was going with this lesson, but it seems like she could have made the "darker skinned" children who remained standing PROUD to be there, and instead they felt ashamed. I would want to know why.

[smiles33]

*Before I started this forum race was a very sensitive subject. I was accused of being racist when I was 16 yo and worked in a pharmacy. A lady called me racist because her insurance wasn't accepted at our pharmacy, which I nicely explained, and I gave her options in the area where it would be accepted. That has haunted me ever since.

I am so sorry that the lady was so hurtful to you and that it left such a lasting and painful impression. Obviously, when one leverages a claim that race is improperly being considered, people sit up and listen. It can be scary to be accused of such a serious charge. And sometimes, folks misuse the power of a claim of racism because they are angry and want to lash out. Clearly, that lady was frustrated and looking for a reason why you were declining her insurance other than the fact that it was pharmacy policy.

In response to your earlier portion of that same post, I have to say that asking overweight kids to talk about how they feel because they're overweight and being singled out in front of all their "average" weight friends who are sitting at their desks would STILL upset me. That is more than just being asked to have an uncomfortable discussion. That is fodder for lifelong trauma, just as your incident at the pharmacy was highly troubling. Imagine that same scenario at the pharmacy played out in front of all your classmates that you go to school with for the next 10+ years.

[BabyMine]

I am so sorry that the lady was so hurtful to you and that it left such a lasting and painful impression. Obviously, when one leverages a claim that race is improperly being considered, people sit up and listen. It can be scary to be accused of such a serious charge. And sometimes, folks misuse the power of a claim of racism because they are angry and want to lash out. Clearly, that lady was frustrated and looking for a reason why you were declining her insurance other than the fact that it was pharmacy policy.

In response to your earlier portion of that same post, I have to say that asking overweight kids to talk about how they feel because they're overweight and being singled out in front of all their "average" weight friends who are sitting at their desks would STILL upset me. That is more than just being asked to have an uncomfortable discussion. That is fodder for lifelong trauma, just as your incident at the pharmacy was highly troubling. Imagine that same scenario at the pharmacy played out in front of all your classmates that you go to school with for the next 10+ years.

I wouldn't mind being asked how I felt in the classroom because it would have opened up a dialogue instead of just being teased. The pharmacy was a one sided cruel way to enforce her anger on to me in a way she figured was easy. It also only happened once so I couldn't really work through it. The teasing did go on for years but it didn't cause a lifelong trauma. It actually helped me become a more compassionate person due to first hand knowledge of how cruel people can be. It also helped me form a wicked sarcastic personality.

[lovin2shop]

FWIW, my elementary did the eye color experiment in 4th grade each year. It is one of my strongest memories of grade school and I felt that it was very effective in its teaching. The experiment lasted for an entire week, and each day the classes were divided by eye color. And then on random days, the different eye colors were treated to either special perks or not, such as going first or last in line to lunch. These classifications lasted all day for the entire week, so the message really got through. On Friday, there was big assembly presentation where diversity and sensitivity were discussed. I would love for my kids to go through such a program. I remember being very sad at the end of the day that I was "discriminated" against, even though I logically knew that it was it was just a random experiment.

Having said that, I think it worked well because the eye color separation hit home the idea that people are judged by looks, but yet it was set up so that no one eye color group had more privileges than any other over the entire course of the week. The idea of dividing the class up by ethnicity or skin tone would definitely bother me. I would definitely discuss it with the teacher, but would try to be sensitive to the fact that she probably did not intend for the lesson to be hurtful in any way.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

Kids are aware of different races from a very young age.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html


This article doesn't really address mixed race children/families at all.

My kids can't seem to tell the racial difference between DH & I. I also don't know how they are supposed to fit into all these racial discussions.

[TwinFoxes]

I knew I was different because children would make fun of my weight. This happened way before 2nd grade. I would have loved to had a teacher explain in that way then have them do a worksheet. I don't mind if M or TT are uncomfortable when learning certain topics.


But would you have loved it if the teacher brought all the overweight kids up to the front of the room and had them explain how it felt to be overweight? While all of the skinny kids got to sit there and stare at you? That's the part of this exercise that makes no sense!

[Globetrotter]

We are Taiwanese American too, so I totally get it. Have you seen this video that was circulating before the 2010 census? It mentions that Taiwanese does NOT equal Thai and is pretty fun to watch.

Nice one!

WOW, I'm shocked Taiwanese didn't get it's own "box"! Perhaps I feel that way since I live in a heavily Asian area.

[american_mama]

I am surprised at the number of people suggesting eye color as a good proxy for this kind of project. Most people of any race other than white have brown eyes. So, a brown eyed group is going to include almost all the brown skinned students as well; in some places, that means the brown eyed group would effectively be the brown skinned group as well.

This might not be obvious in a school with a small non-white population and that, I suspect, is part of the problem. I suspect many white teachers and white schools look for these artificial ways to discuss race and discrimination, consciously or unconsciously leading to situations where the non-white students feel pushed into acting as "spokesperson for their race." Sometimes kids just want to blend in, or at least not have their differences highlighted. Sometimes kids' feelings are too private or the environment not comfortable enough that they can share their feelings or experiences. A teacher has to begin with an understanding of those dynamics or any exercise in discussing race is going to hurt more than it helps.

I would suggest the class first talk about these topics in less personal ways - talk about characters or events in something the class read or watched, talk about a current news story. Have kids write an individual response connecting what they read to something in their own life - a way to make the discussion more personal, but still private. Tell them they have the option of sharing what they wrote with the whole class. In case the perspectives shared are somewhat homogeneous, either due to class composition or who is willing to voluntarily share, the teacher should be prepared to offer different perspectives herself rather than put anyone on the spot.

That's just a quick idea. Race (and many other -isms) are sensitive subjects and therefore need to be approached with some sensitivity - not silence, not PC-ness, but an extra effort to be respectful. Putting students on display (unequally, no less) in the expectation that they will bubble forth with insightful commentary about race and discrimination - interested though the teacher may have been in those responses - is unfair.

[lovin2shop]

I am surprised at the number of people suggesting eye color as a good proxy for this kind of project. Most people of any race other than white have brown eyes. So, a brown eyed group is going to include almost all the brown skinned students as well; in some places, that means the brown eyed group would effectively be the brown skinned group as well.
.

I think eye color can be a fine way of doing it, as long as all eye colors are treated equally in the experiment. In our case, I think the brown eyed group (which I was in) was given all the privileges on the first day, and then medium on the second, none on the third, and medium again on the fourth. Other eye colors got the same experience on different days. I think it had more impact than just specifying a shirt color, or different made up group, as historically discrimination is often about appearance and bodily features. It was a long time ago for me to remember, but I'm going to guess that they were careful not to attribute any meaning to the actual color of ones eyes, it was just used as a physical characteristic for sorting purposes.

[maestramommy]

Lol, I almost forgot about that video! Oh and it's funny, DH is korean, and my kids get REALLY confused when ppl ask them, "what" they are. They say, "I'm half of a korean and half of a taiwanese." I am sure that ppl probably are like, "huh?" I can't wait to send my kids to TAF (Taiwanese American Foundation). It's a week long summer camp for taiwanese american (and canadian) kids, it's hosted in the midwest, but open to ppl all over the country. I went for yrs and yrs and it was seriously the only reason I did't become a complete banana and learned to have pride in my roots. I also made some wonderful friends, I think it helps a lot, esp if you grow up in an area without very many asians. My boys are technically old enough this summer to go, but I'm not sure I am ready for them to go to a wk long camp (at a campus) w/o me. Too bad parents can't go to camp for a wk with them, lol. www.tafworld.org (http://www.tafworld.org)


LOL, I went to TAF when I was a kid too! 2 years in HS and one year in jr high. Actually after the 2nd year I was a little jaded because it felt a lot more cliquish. I don't know what it's like now, but my much younger cousins are still going and they love it.

spunkybaby I didn't know you are Taiwanese American too! :jammin: At school kids have asked Dora if she's Chinese, if she spoke Chinese, and she didn't know what to say. Dh and I tell you, "you are Taiwanese and if anyone asks you if you are Chinese that is what you tell them. Amah and Akong came from Taiwan not China, so you are not Chinese." I think the schools here are a tad behind because they still celebrate Chinese New Year, instead of Lunar New Year, which I had gotten used to while living in SoCal.

I should watch the video!

[maestramommy]

Nice one!

WOW, I'm shocked Taiwanese didn't get it's own "box"! Perhaps I feel that way since I live in a heavily Asian area.


I think for the last census there was a message circulating on FB for all Taiwanese to check "other" and write in Taiwanese.

[maestramommy]

Kids are aware of different races from a very young age.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html


that was a very powerful article, thanks for sharing! It sure knocked over one assumption I had, and that is that my kids probably don't notice race. Maybe they're just quiet:p The thing is, our area is so white, we don't often run in circles where there are many people of color. In fact, I think Dora' class has one biracial child, and that's it. Arwyn has a Chinese classmate, and that's also it. My local MOMS club finally had 2 Asian women join in the last year, but only one of them is SAHM so I haven't met the other woman's DC. The thing is, I always notice when we meet other Asian kids they stare and stare at my DDs, but when I look at my kids it's like they don't notice or something! I mean, they acknowledge the other kid, then they've moved on. I really don't know what's going on in their heads.

Still, the article did give me incentive for talking to the kids about race, and skin color. The trouble is, I really don't know what to say. Like, REALLY don't. How do you even bring it up? We've just gotten to the point of telling Dora she is Taiwanese, but that isn't related so much to skin color, and I can't even say, "Well you know how some friends at school are this color or this color?" cause there aren't any.

[Naranjadia]

that was a very powerful article, thanks for sharing! It sure knocked over one assumption I had, and that is that my kids probably don't notice race. Maybe they're just quiet:p The thing is, our area is so white, we don't often run in circles where there are many people of color.

...
Still, the article did give me incentive for talking to the kids about race, and skin color. The trouble is, I really don't know what to say.

I read that article a bit ago and it was really interesting that the white parents were so resistant to talking about race - but after trying myself, it isn't easy, like you say. Especially since I didn't grow up talking about race either - or at least not until I was in my teens.

We live in a very white area, too, though we and the kids have many friends who are black, Chinese- and Korean-American thanks to being part of the university community. I try read the kids books that reflect diversity, etc.

And still my children have said things that show that they have already internalized stereotypes about who they can trust based on skin color. It's hard not react strongly - which only confuses them more.

[spunkybaby]

I am surprised at the number of people suggesting eye color as a good proxy for this kind of project. Most people of any race other than white have brown eyes. So, a brown eyed group is going to include almost all the brown skinned students as well; in some places, that means the brown eyed group would effectively be the brown skinned group as well.

Yes, even though I initially suggested blue eyes/brown eyes as an alternative in my OP, as I think about it more, I am not comfortable with that either. i think the original blue eyes/brown eyes classroom exercise occurred in Iowa in a classroom composed entirely of Caucasian children. So in that scenario, dividing the children by eye color does not mean that all the minority children (or most) are in the brown-eyed group. However, once you have a more diverse population, the blue-eyed group will be pretty much Caucasian and everyone else (including some Caucasians) will be in the brown-eyed group.

While I understand that these exercises may be powerful learning tools for some of the participants, I would guess that students who experience the greatest "eye-opening" are Caucasians. And I still don't like the fact that my child (and others) were involuntarily made uncomfortable for someone else's learning experience.


This might not be obvious in a school with a small non-white population and that, I suspect, is part of the problem. I suspect many white teachers and white schools look for these artificial ways to discuss race and discrimination, consciously or unconsciously leading to situations where the non-white students feel pushed into acting as "spokesperson for their race." Sometimes kids just want to blend in, or at least not have their differences highlighted. Sometimes kids' feelings are too private or the environment not comfortable enough that they can share their feelings or experiences. A teacher has to begin with an understanding of those dynamics or any exercise in discussing race is going to hurt more than it helps.

:yeahthat: Exactly. It's one thing when you choose to be a spokesperson but to have it forced upon you is just not right.



I would suggest the class first talk about these topics in less personal ways - talk about characters or events in something the class read or watched, talk about a current news story. Have kids write an individual response connecting what they read to something in their own life - a way to make the discussion more personal, but still private. Tell them they have the option of sharing what they wrote with the whole class. In case the perspectives shared are somewhat homogeneous, either due to class composition or who is willing to voluntarily share, the teacher should be prepared to offer different perspectives herself rather than put anyone on the spot.

That's just a quick idea. Race (and many other -isms) are sensitive subjects and therefore need to be approached with some sensitivity - not silence, not PC-ness, but an extra effort to be respectful. Putting students on display (unequally, no less) in the expectation that they will bubble forth with insightful commentary about race and discrimination - interested though the teacher may have been in those responses - is unfair.

Thanks for these suggestions, american_mama. I have always appreciated your thoughtful discussions/posts on race and other related issues. :signthankspin:

[spunkybaby]

Lol, I almost forgot about that video! Oh and it's funny, DH is korean, and my kids get REALLY confused when ppl ask them, "what" they are. They say, "I'm half of a korean and half of a taiwanese." I am sure that ppl probably are like, "huh?" I can't wait to send my kids to TAF (Taiwanese American Foundation). It's a week long summer camp for taiwanese american (and canadian) kids, it's hosted in the midwest, but open to ppl all over the country. I went for yrs and yrs and it was seriously the only reason I did't become a complete banana and learned to have pride in my roots. I also made some wonderful friends, I think it helps a lot, esp if you grow up in an area without very many asians. My boys are technically old enough this summer to go, but I'm not sure I am ready for them to go to a wk long camp (at a campus) w/o me. Too bad parents can't go to camp for a wk with them, lol. www.tafworld.org

I liked how the video showed people of mixed races with Taiwanese heritage too. I bet we have IRL friends in common. I met a bunch of people in college who grew up in the Midwest and went to TAF.

[spunkybaby]

The thing that strikes me the most when re-reading this thread is the different experiences of people made to stand in front of the class to illustrate a lesson. In my case, I was proud to be one of the few people standing, and crushed when I had to sit. In other cases, the children left standing felt awkward and uncomfortable.

I'm not sure where the teacher was going with this lesson, but it seems like she could have made the "darker skinned" children who remained standing PROUD to be there, and instead they felt ashamed. I would want to know why.

Well, in the situation you described, the people left standing were the ones who were chosen to survive and were deemed superior. So that might explain why anyone left standing felt rather pleased. However, in DD1's situation, the darker-skinned children were put on display as examples of those who suffered discrimination in MLK's day (not to mention the present day). So I don't think DD1 and the other children felt too wonderful about their group membership.

[essnce629]

I'm mixed (1/2 black, 1/2 Mexican) and DBF is white so my kids are 1/2 white, 1/4 black, and 1/4 Mexican.

This type of classroom experiment would make me angry and I would definately talk to the teacher if my child felt uncomfortable.

DS1 looks just like DBF and has straight hair and in this type of experiment he would most likely be assigned to the light skinned group. DS2 looks like me and has darker skin and curly mixed hair and would most likely be in the dark skinned group. DS1 is in 3rd grade and I don't know if this type of experiment would make him uncomfortable but that's just because nothing seems to phase him!

Growing up I hated dealing with race stuff since I was proud of being mixed, but always had to check one box on forms and stuff. There's never really a "mixed race" box and that bugs the crap out of me. I refuse to choose when I'm 1/2 and 1/2 and even though I look 100% black, I pretty much grew up in all white neighborhoods and schools and identify with my black side the least since my parents were divorced early on and I was raised be my Mexican mother and her side of the family. Also, my whole life I've always been asked "why don't you like black guys?" since every guy I've ever been with has been white. But to me it makes perfect sense-- if I spent my whole childhood and high school days surround by only white guys, wouldn't it make sense that I would be attracted to them? Why would I only be attracted to black guys when I was never around them? There was one other black guy in my high school class of 365 kids and everyone thought we should be dating! Should I only like guys that have the same color skin as me? So annoying!!!

I just hate dealing with race stuff since being biracial and having multiracial kids doesn't allow us to fit in any boxes so I just don't think about it really. All of our neighbor kids are all mixed too (4 different families) so it doesn't really come up since no one around us fits into any specific race boxes. I just don't see things like my dad does who mentions race in every situation he brings up-- "I work with this white guy, I met this Asian woman, etc."

[Globetrotter]

i think the original blue eyes/brown eyes classroom exercise occurred in Iowa in a classroom composed entirely of Caucasian children. So in that scenario, dividing the children by eye color does not mean that all the minority children (or most) are in the brown-eyed group.

good point

[hellokitty]

I liked how the video showed people of mixed races with Taiwanese heritage too. I bet we have IRL friends in common. I met a bunch of people in college who grew up in the Midwest and went to TAF.

I liked that too! Outwardly, ppl would assume my kids were just one ethnicity. DS1 looks very taiwanese, DS2 and DS3 look korean. It's nice to see that the video was inclusive of all different taiwanese. What's funny is that we know a ton of couples IRL who are the taiwanese and korean combo. My father always accuses me (yes, like he points his finger and shakes it at me when he says this every time) of starting the trend among their taiwanese friends. About 1/3 of their taiwanese friends' adult children have married korean, lol. I was the first one who married a korean. And yes, I bet we do know some of the same ppl!

Oh and I've observed a trend with this thread. The majority (not all) of posters who don't want any sort of racial exercise, in which children's physical differences are pointed out to the rest of the class are those whose kids are not 100% caucasian. The ones who seem to be more ok with these exercises (eye color) are probably ones whose kids identify as caucasian and wouldn't be singled out for racial differences. I think that everyone's perception of how offensive this is has a lot to do with where their kids would fit in with this sort of exercise IRL. I wonder if ppl's opinion of how acceptable this would be, if their kids were not white. Would that change their perception? Those of us whose kids are not white and who probably went through racial situations ourselves are naturally going to be much more sensitive to situations such as this.

[wellyes]

Growing up I hated dealing with race stuff since I was proud of being mixed, but always had to check one box on forms and stuff. There's never really a "mixed race" box and that bugs the crap out of me. I refuse to choose when I'm 1/2 and 1/2 and even though I look 100% black, I pretty much grew up in all white neighborhoods and schools and identify with my black side the least since my parents were divorced early on and I was raised be my Mexican mother and her side of the family. Also, my whole life I've always been asked "why don't you like black guys?" since every guy I've ever been with has been white. But to me it makes perfect sense-- if I spent my whole childhood and high school days surround by only white guys, wouldn't it make sense that I would be attracted to them? Why would I only be attracted to black guys when I was never around them? There was one other black guy in my high school class of 365 kids and everyone thought we should be dating! Should I only like guys that have the same color skin as me? So annoying!!!That's interesting - and irritating. Man.
This reminds me of people who say "How come Pres Obama considers himself black" (as opposed to identifying as biracial, I guess) and I think the honest answer is that he never really had a choice, anyway.


I think that everyone's perception of how offensive this is has a lot to do with where their kids would fit in with this sort of exercise IRL. I wonder if ppl's opinion of how acceptable this would be, if their kids were not white.

Or if the exercise was based on class instead of race.

[lovin2shop]

On the eye color issue, I'm actually biracial, Hispanic and Caucasian, and the overwhelming 99% majority of the kids that I did the experiment with were Caucasian. I'm sure there are other ways to do this experiment, and I can't speak for my entire grade that participated, but to me separating by eye color was a non-issue since everyone was treated the same throughout the experiment. We all have eyes with a color right? Like I said, I'm not vested in the project being done this way, I just wanted to share that it was a really positive experience for me as a child. I think this it is a dicey subject to handle, on one hand you have to be extremely sensitive, but on the other, if you water it down to an almost silly level, it loses its impact.

[hellokitty]

Or if the exercise was based on class instead of race.

Yeah, but I don't even think I was aware of differences in class until I was in high school. It would be something completely over the heads of elementary aged kids.

[creativelightbulb]

I quickly scanned through the other responses...so pardon if this is a repeat...

Generally speaking, I think I am in the minority amongst the posters when I say that you and several others are overreacting, IMO.

I know it is natural to want to protect your children from harm (on in this case - discomfort) but the truth is LIFE can be uncomfortable...while it might be her first experience (which in itself is doubtful) in feeling this way it darn sure won't be her last. As parents it should be our goal to equip our children with the "tools" to effectively navigate life's moments...the good, bad and the ugly.

Second graders are well aware of differences. If I were the OP I'd use this opportunity to open the door to dialogue with my DD about the many differences in people...about tolerance...about recognizing right and wrong...etc. etc. Heck you can have a conversation with your child about other ways the teacher could have made her point...therefore further emphasizing the "lesson".

Sure you can have a conversation with the teacher to find out what her intention was and relay to her how your child felt and discuss if the lesson could be revised... I don't see a problem with that. But totally focusing on the teacher in this scenario to me is overreacting.

It would be more troubling for me as a parent that I don't know more about what goes on with my child at school on a daily basis (as the OP stated).

[wellyes]

Yeah, but I don't even think I was aware of differences in class until I was in high school. It would be something completely over the heads of elementary aged kids.
Probably depends on how homogenous the town is. And how poor. I grew up in a town where most kids shopped at KMart and owned maybe 1.5 weeks of outfits. They were extremely aware of their more middle class peers - the ones who lived more like you see on TV.

[american_mama]

>> It would be more troubling for me as a parent that I don't know more about what goes on with my child at school on a daily basis

Do you *have* a school-aged child? I don't think it's possible to know every lesson they do in school every day.

[spunkybaby]

Short update for anyone interested...

I spoke to DD's teacher and asked about the MLK exercise, explaining that DD1 had been upset by the separation of the children into white and darker-skinned groups.

The teacher said that's not what happened. She said she divided the children by blonde hair/blue eyes and brown hair/brown eyes, not by skin color. She also said both groups were given opportunities to talk. She said she was sorry DD1 was upset and that she would check in with DD1.

Honestly, I didn't know how to respond, so we just left it at that. I now wish I had gone a little deeper and mentioned that I don't think it's a good idea to separate the children based on a physical characteristic. I think the teacher believes DD1 was oversensitive and misunderstood the exercise. I doubt the teacher will make any changes in her curriculum plans and will most likely go on giving this same classroom exercise in the future, which makes me sad and upset for the future kids.

The teacher said that other girls were in DD1's group in addition to DD1 and the SE Asian girl. However, when I asked DD1 again, she is quite sure that there were only two girls in her group. She said that the teacher didn't know what to do with the two other brown-haired girls since they didn't have dark skin. DD1 thinks the teacher may not have called them to be in either group (she's not sure about this part, but she is certain that the girls were not in her group).

I am going to talk to a few other parents in the class. Initially, I did not want to include too many people in this discussion before talking to the teacher. But now I am not sure whose description of the class exercise is more accurate--the teacher's version or DD1's version.

I think gathering more information will help me figure out if I want to pursue this further in discussion with the teacher or just drop it altogether. Ugh. These are not easy conversations to have. I definitely feel a little powerless in the teacher-parent relationship. :(

[hellokitty]

Wow, that is really weird that the teacher's version and your dd's version are so different. I do not think your dd would just make something up like that. The teacher MAY have originally wanted to do the exercise, in the way that she explained it to you. However, I have a feeling that it did not go as planned. I hope you get some info from the other parents. It is difficult in this situation. While you aren't happy and need to let her know that the exercise wasn't appropriate and how your dd perceived it, you still have to tread carefully not to bristle the teacher. I'm always afraid that if my kid gets on the teacher's bad side, that my child will end up being treated poorly by the teacher. I hope you can find out more info to get the whole picture. It seems like there is a gap missing in the teacher's version of what happened.

[cvanbrunt]

Sounds like she was attempting to do a very famous exercise.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

[essnce629]

The teacher said that's not what happened. She said that she divided the children by blonde hair/blue eyes and brown hair/brown eyes, not by skin color.

Then what about kids with blond hair and brown eyes or brown hair and blue/green eyes? Where do they fit in? Were they just not put in any group? This seems odd to me. Are all the kids in the entire class either blond with blue eyes or brown with brown eyes?

[truly scrumptious]

I haven't read all the responses but I did see your update. I also don't have school age kids, so you can take my POV for what it's worth.

In my mind it wouldn't matter how exactly the teacher ran it or how famous the exercise is, or even that the teacher and your DD saw the exercise differently - the point is that your DD has a strong negative memory of the incident. So as a teacher, it would concern me that my "intentions" didn't get across and instead I ended up teaching a lesson the negative way. Yes, your DD got the point that exclusion based on external appearance hurts - but in the way she might have learned the lesson by having kids exclude her on a playground - in a negative and hurtful way.
And as a teacher I would also wonder how many OTHER kids processed the incident negatively. How many of the blond/blue-eyed kids who have never thought about it before, are now thinking - "Thank goodness I'm blond/blue eyed so I don't get called out like that. Poor SusieQ that she has brown hair/eyes." It seems like she was enabling the very separation she was trying to portray as bad...
I think she was trying an exercise meant for an older group with an audience much too young to pick up the nuance, and this might have been the first intro any of them had to race issues, and now it is a negative one. Regardless of whether your DD's memory is accurate, THAT is the memory she will have whenever she thinks about race issues.

In short, I don't think dismissing your DD as oversensitive is the answer - the teacher needs to seriously examine her lesson plan because her message failed to get across as intended. You will probably find quite a few other kids mis-read the lesson when you talk with their parents.
That is an issue that definitely needs to be addressed - and it can be done in a kind way - "I know you didn't intend for it to come across like that, but here is how it seemed to the kids. I know you don't want that, so can we maybe discuss a more positive way to frame the message?"

Just my 2 cents.

[liamsmom]

I'm sorry, OP. It all sounds so incredibly frustrating. Despite the teacher's version of the incident, it sounds like your daughter was used as a prop in the lesson, based on her physical characteristics, of which she has no control. I don't think that's a good idea for kids at that age anyway. Some children look different from the rest of their families too. They can be pretty sensitive about their hair or eye color.

It seems that no matter her intention, the teacher perpetuated the myth of one race (or appearance) being the norm and everything else is "other."

[123LuckyMom]

I completely agree with truly scrumptious. The lesson failed spectacularly in your DD's case. I posted before that I think this was a poor choice of educational exercise for this age group and was executed poorly by a teacher not adequately trained to use it. If I were you, I would continue to pursue this. Your DD's teacher had good intentions, but she should be aware that her lesson not only failed to get across the point she had hoped to make, but also had unintended negative consequences. She really should not use this lesson again! At least not without further training and appropriate adaptations. I would tread lightly and emphasize that you admire the teacher's desire to try something inventive, but that you hope she'll reconsider using this lesson again. If it were me, and I still got the feeling that the teacher had rejected my concerns, I would make an appointment with the teacher and the principal, not to scold the teacher, but to encourage that the lesson be adapted or discarded. There have been lots of really good suggestions above for adaptations. Honestly, though, I think 2nd grade is too young for this kind of exclusion lesson, even when it's adapted to avoid physical characteristics, and even when both sides get to experience the prejudice and favoritism. This is just not a good age for this lesson!!!

[spunkybaby]

Wow, that is really weird that the teacher's version and your dd's version are so different. I do not think your dd would just make something up like that. The teacher MAY have originally wanted to do the exercise, in the way that she explained it to you. However, I have a feeling that it did not go as planned. I hope you get some info from the other parents.

Thanks, hellokitty--I feel exactly the same way, but I guess I will know better if DD1 was mistaken after the other parents talk to their daughters.


It is difficult in this situation. While you aren't happy and need to let her know that the exercise wasn't appropriate and how your dd perceived it, you still have to tread carefully not to bristle the teacher. I'm always afraid that if my kid gets on the teacher's bad side, that my child will end up being treated poorly by the teacher. I hope you can find out more info to get the whole picture. It seems like there is a gap missing in the teacher's version of what happened.

Yup, again, I feel the same way! Thanks for your support. :love2:

[spunkybaby]

Sounds like she was attempting to do a very famous exercise.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Yes, I'm aware of the blue eyes/brown eyes experiment, but I think it was originally done in a different environment (all Caucasian children with little exposure to other races/ethnicities), and I don't think DD1's teacher's adaptation was helpful or effective.

[spunkybaby]

Then what about kids with blond hair and brown eyes or brown hair and blue/green eyes? Where do they fit in? Were they just not put in any group? This seems odd to me. Are all the kids in the entire class either blond with blue eyes or brown with brown eyes?

Yup--I have the same questions. I honestly have not checked all the blonde children's eye colors, but I suspect that not all have blue eyes. I think the teacher doesn't really remember how the children were actually separated--it has been over a month--so she was telling me her intentions or at least how she thinks it should have been. I think I caught her off-guard with my question.

[spunkybaby]

Thank you, truly_scrumptious, liamsmom, 123LuckyMom, and all the other PPs who have been so supportive and helpful.

I appreciate all of your responses and will take better notes about suggested ways to bring up this topic again with the teacher after I talk to a few other parents.

[Gracemom]

This "social experiment" was done on me in a social work class in graduate school. It was extremely upsetting to me and I was 24 years old! The teacher had no right to do this with such young children. Social psychology experiments need to pass an ethics review, and this one would fail! I know it's not a full experiment, but it was manipulating young children. Not okay and the principal should not allow it.

[spunkybaby]

Final update--for anyone who's interested...

I talked to one of the other moms and confirmed some details of DD's report (that DD was one of two girls in the "brown" group).

I tried asking my DD more about what happened, but she no longer wants to talk about it and asked me not talk to her teacher again. Somehow, she feels like she got in trouble with the teacher for telling me about the classroom exercise, which I find disturbing. :(

I ended up meeting with the principal today and made three general points:
*The classroom exercise and how it upset my DD
*My conversation with the teacher and how I felt that she dismissed my concerns rather than reflecting on the unintended consequences of her exercise and considering changes
*The effect of the teacher's response on DD--that DD no longer wants to tell me about what happens at school because she thinks she will get into trouble with her teacher (I think this is a dangerous precedent that undermines open communication with our DD)

I was extremely apprehensive about my meeting with the principal, but it turned out well. The principal listened, understood my concerns, and is going to address the issue with the teacher and the entire staff as part of ongoing sensitivity training and will do his best to ensure that there are no negative repercussions. I explained my concerns regarding this type of classroom exercise and how it promotes in-groups/out-groups (even when based on non-physical characteristics) and the lasting effects (thank you, american_mama!), and again, he totally got it.

I am so thankful that the principal was receptive to my concerns, and I'm hopeful that it will eventually result in greater sensitivity and understanding about race/ethnicity/diversity matters at the school.

Thanks to all the PPs for providing feedback and support. :grouphug:

[spunkybaby]

sorry--double post

[mjs64]

I think that's a great outcome. Kudos to you for pursuing the matter. Sounds like a number of people may benefit from your concern and determination. A small step, maybe, but a good one--this is how institutions change (IMO).

[maestramommy]

Glad the meeting went well. Hopefully this will only improve curriculum as the staff moves forward.

:hug5:to your DD.

[american_mama]

sounds like a good meeting and you stated your concerns well. I hope change comes of it. I have had similar issues with probing DD1 for info. about something that a bus driver was doing wrong, and her clamping down on the info. with me, plus her somewhat innocently trying to handle the situation with the driver herself and ending up in the middle, so I feel your pain about that.