Competitive Schools: Yay or Nay?

[stinkyfeet]

We just sold our house :cheerleader1: and are ready to look for another house in a better school district.

We live in the DC area and have access to some of the best public school systems in the country (Montgomery and Fairfax County). We are able to afford a home (although it would be a newer townhome or older SFH) in the top school pyramids in these counties.

The problem is that I have been contemplating what "best" means. I have been reading our local forums and reading the book "The Overachievers" (a journalist follows several high school students from the top performing high school in MD). It seems like people are so concerned with their kids getting into the magnet programs, ivies, etc. I am beginning to see what they mean by how some schools are "pressure cookers".

It even seems as though there is a lot of pressure at the elementary level. DH was talking to a parent who said that her daughter had thought-provoking and challenging homework at the kindergarten level! :dizzy: I have read that in the local elementary schools, most of the academics focus on english and math (for standardized tests) at the expense of science, history, music, gym, etc.

My kids aren't in school yet, but I am just comparing what I read to my own experience where kindergarten and elementary school overall was fun and not hyper-focused on standardized test scores, performance, etc.

As a result, I have been considering "bedroom communities" further out where the schools are still considered "good" and where they may have a happier less stressful childhood.

For those parents who have school-aged children, were you happy or regret with your decision of putting your kids in a competitive school system?

(BTW, home schooling and private schools are not an option for our family)

[crl]

We are deliberately avoiding high pressure schools for ds. He is in second grade and struggling with reading. The last thing I think he needs is to be put in a school where academic success and testing well are very highly valued with little to no emphasis on success in other areas.

Catherine

[carolinamama]

As a child who moved out of a high-pressure, best school district into one that was good, DH and I are going for good. The pressure was huge and unless you were one of the super stars or needing special ed, I think it felt somewhat lonely. And I was a pretty good student but not the absolute best. The pressure also extends beyond academics into sports and extracurriculars. I'm sure lots of kids do fine in these programs, and in reality I was doing okay too. But it was definitely a more pleasant experience for me after we moved (between freshman and sophomore year in hs).

[egoldber]

We are in Fairfax County and older DD is a 5th grader. She attends a fulltime AAP center program at a school not our base school. She did grades 1-3 at our base school and 4-5 in the center. We plan to have her there for 6th as well. Our current pyramid is considered one of the "worst" in the county and we are looking to move into a better, although not considered the "best", in the county.

Honestly, I have not seen the pressure. If anything, I think they could push the kids a little more sometimes. I also have to say that I have been extremely happy in the later years with the amount (not so much) of homework in 4th and 5th grades. I think it was worse in the younger grades, although in retrospect I think *I* was a little over the top with it.

The teachers at the school come right out and say that most work is done in the classroom so that they can be hands on with the kids and so that parents don't help too much. The kids IME seem to be busy, but not overly so. I think my DD is among the least busy of some of her peers because 1) we try not to schedule classes/lessons on the weekends and 2) she does most of her activities at after care.

There are very competitive parents. I think it can be really easy to fall into a trap of keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to activities for kids, etc. But I think that most parents are not like this.

[wellyes]

There are a few local towns we've crossed off our list due to their reputations for pressured, overscheduled childhoods (and helicopter parents). I vote for good-not-best for a balanced life.

But I realize that it is a hell of a privilege to think that way.

Also want to emphasize that "competitive" does not = "best". Not all top-tier schools are pressure cookers necessarily. There are *lots* of top 20 schools in my state -- Massachusetts, which has GREAT schools -- that I'd be thrilled to move to. You have to go by reputation and talking to people who live there.

[mommylamb]

Congrats on selling your home. We're in Fairfax County in a good school district, but not one of the top pyramids, and I'm totally fine with that. I'm not sure I would want one of the high pressure systems.

[lowrioh]

We are in the DC area and live in PG right now. We will be sending DDs to the public Elementary school but will probably move once they go into HS. We are planning on moving to Ann Arundel county in MD rather than Montgomery or Fairfax. The schools are very good but from what I have heard they are not as competitive as the schools in Mont or Fairfax. Property values are also significantly lower. Depending on where you work , Crofton, Odenton etc may be too long of a commute though(there are MARC stations in Odenton though). I work on the North East quadrant of the Beltway so it wouldn't be bad.

[HIU8]

I'm in Montgomery County. The public ES for my neighborhood is ok (not great--there are many better). Our school is not high pressure. The middle school is more so, but the high school is not one of the several considered a pressure cooker. Having said that, we are actually looking to move to a school pyramid that is better than where we are, but not a pressure cooker. FWIW, I have one child in private who will be there for the forseeable future. DH and I would like to see him go to public high school so we want someplace that will challenge him without the pressure. Our DD will enter the neighborhood public next year and I'm really not crazy about this.

[Kindra178]

We specifically avoided the "best" non selective enrollment high school in the state because we didn't want our boys to deal with that kind of pressure. Other friends of ours specifically chose it, totally baffled by our decision, because why wouldn't you want your kid at the "best" school? Similarly, ds1's elementary school is pretty laid back as compared to another in district school. We value diversity, including economic and race, as well as strong academics. Strong academics doesn't necessarily mean the best test scores.

My position stems from my experience working in the real world. You need to be able to get along with all kinds of people, from all walks of life. Why not see that at a young age?

[theriviera]

We will likely move to an area with the top public schools in our region (although I'm sure there not as good as schools outside of our state). I have mixed feelings about this. Like other moms, I value diversity - both socioeconomic and racial and I worry that we won't get that there. However, my DH went to a very average/below average high school. He is one of his only friends to go to college. He knew no one that went to a 4 year school off the bat. If they went, they went to CC (as did DH). Of course, there is nothing wrong with this. But for DH, he saw that most of these people did not continue/finish CC. For him, he feels it's important for our kids to be surrounded by kids that are thinking about college.

I went to an okay high school but I grew up in a small town so it wasn't like there were a ton of choices. We had socioeconomic diversity if not racial diversity. However, all of my friends were thinking about college. No one went out of state or Ivy (i'm not even sure anyone applied) but they went to good state schools.

DH feels very strongly about this and it's not a place where I think it's worth arguing about, because I think we can help our kids get more diverse experiences outside of school.

[ha98ed14]

Other friends of ours specifically chose it, totally baffled by our decision, because why wouldn't you want your kid at the "best" school? Similarly, ds1's elementary school is pretty laid back as compared to another in district school. We value diversity, including economic and race, as well as strong academics. Strong academics doesn't necessarily mean the best test scores.

My position stems from my experience working in the real world. You need to be able to get along with all kinds of people, from all walks of life. Why not see that at a young age?

I really struggled with this because my values very much align with these. Our closest neighborhood school has a lot of racial, linguistic and economic diversity. Half the students come in with little English. They are not fully fluent or literate in their own languages and then are going to be taught in a 2nd language that they are even less fluent in! I am CONVINCED that this drags down their test scores. I am also convinced that much of the time time and energy of the teachers is spent on bringing kids up to speed because they are going to be tested in English. Because my child is a native English speaker, we chose to send her to the school with a less diverse population. There is still a lot of racial diversity, but the kids are 2nd or 3rd generation and speak English at home. I don't know if it's a pressure cooker or not. It's only K, and DD eats up school, so I am not that worried about it. Interestingly, both of these schools feed to the same middle and high school.

IIWY, I would side with your friends and buy in the best district I could afford with the best schools and make accommodation if DD did not thrive in that environment.

[AnnieW625]

I voted "I want pumpkin pie," but if I was only given the option of yes or no I would have voted no. Last year I ended up applying to 9 other elementary schools in our district for DD1, however only one would have been one that I considered a pressure cooker by some but it was a small school so that was a plus. DD1 got into one other elementary school outside of our home school area, but the daycare costs ended up being too much and we didn't love the school enough to spend more on before/afterschool care than we would pay for Catholic school tuition ($750 a month vs. $525 for tuition and afterschool care). There were 3 public schools I would have paid more for before/after school care for the kindergarten year because they are really good schools and not pressure cookers. I did not apply to the two main pressure cooker schools because they were just too far from us and I didn't want all of that pressure for my kids.

The size of the school was also very important to us because I am from a smaller area and I went to smaller schools. Elementary schools have 700-1000 students (1000 students if a k-8), the middle schools have about 1300 to 1500, and the high schools are all 4000 students or more. That number just scared me so for at least elementary school I wanted something homey feeling. There are 300 kids in DD1's school k-8. We decided we will deal with high school when we get there, but seriously 4000 students (and limited accelerated programs with smaller student interaction groups) is a lot and that scares me. We have a couple of reasonably priced Catholic options near us with much smaller student populations.


I really struggled with this because my values very much align with these. Our closest neighborhood school has a lot of racial, linguistic and economic diversity. Half the students come in with little English. They are not fully fluent or literate in their own languages and then are going to be taught in a 2nd language that they are even less fluent in! I am CONVINCED that this drags down their test scores. I am also convinced that much of the time time and energy of the teachers is spent on bringing kids up to speed because they are going to be tested in English. Because my child is a native English speaker, we chose to send her to the school with a less diverse population. There is still a lot of racial diversity, but the kids are 2nd or 3rd generation and speak English at home. I don't know if it's a pressure cooker or not. It's only K, and DD eats up school, so I am not that worried about it. Interestingly, both of these schools feed to the same middle and high school.
:yeahthat: The details of the school that Ha98ed14 posted about are very similar to our home school, which is 500 ft. from my house. We live about 20 miles from Ha's area and I think the demographics of our region are very similar. The kids who go to my neighborhood school come from up to 10 miles away from us too from the overcrowded parts of our district because our school is underenrolled in area kids (most of the kids in my hood are now in high school and college, and the older elementary and middle school aged kids all transferred out about 8-10 yrs. ago due to some administration issues), and neither DH or saw that as a positive in choosing a school. We weren't just worried about what went on in the class room education wise but participation from other parents because the kids come from poorer areas where the parents work a couple of jobs to make ends meet.


IIWY, I would side with your friends and buy in the best district I could afford with the best schools and make accommodation if DD did not thrive in that environment.

this is very important too. We live in a suburb with pretty middle to upper class economics and could have bought the same style and same age home on the other side of town for the same price, but that area was in a different school district so even though DH knew we wouldn't send our future kids to public school (he really had to convince me to do Catholic) he still wanted to make sure that we were in our current school district because it is very well regarded, even though there are issues with the bussing of overcrowded students all over the city.

[maestramommy]

We live in one of the top districts in our area. I have not heard that the elementary or middle schools are particularly competitive. There is an enrichment program, but not an official GATE program. However, our sitter and her older sister (now in college) has told Dh that the HS is pretty rigorous and "competitive". She didn't say that the students are competitive with each other, but that as a body, they're pretty driven about getting not just into college, but good colleges. The HS has IB, which did attract our notice when we were looking, though it wasn't a requirement. But we feel this level of rigor is appropriate for HS. We haven't heard anything about pressure cooker or helicopter parenting, though we had two incidents last year with a parent trying to get a book banned (same parent). For the most part it sounds like the kids work hard, and that is the kind of environment we want for our kids at that age.

[123LuckyMom]

I think if your alternative to the pressure cooker is, in fact, a good school, I would avoid the pressure cooker! I was educated in pressure cooker schools. I got an extraordinary education, but I was miserable-- popular and high achieving, but miserable. I vowed I wouldn't do that to my kids. The truth of the matter is that peer group matters. It's important for your child to be educated where people are planning on going to college and value education. Good schools can do that. In pressure cooker schools, everyone is aiming at the same 20 colleges. In good schools, if your kid shines, s/he is actually more likely to get into a top school. Childhood is brief. Education is very important, but it doesn't take place only in a classroom! I would choose a good school where you and your family can have a balanced life. That being said, my DS isn't in the public school system yet. I might change my mind as he gets older.

[TwinFoxes]

I'm in FFX too, and our pyramid is considered one of the best. And obviously I have no first hand experience but all my neighborhood friends have older kids ranging from college age to 2nd grade. From what I've observed there seems to be a lot of opportunity and great programs. But I haven't seen a lot of keep up with the Joneses type succeed or nothing type attitude. The schools are large enough that if you're a good, not genius, student you'll have plenty of non-geniuses to hang out with! I do agree with PP that being in a learning atmosphere with an expectation you'll go to college is important. We didn't pick our area because of the HS, but I'm not sorry we are here. I think the real pressure cooker in FFX is Thomas Jefferson which you have to test into.

ETA: to stick up a bit for FCPS, to me they seem like regular high schools, not schools with one type of students all headed to the Ivies and UVA. But remember, Fairfax has I think the highest percentage of residents with college degrees in the country, and it has one of the highest median incomes. So statistically there are bound to be a lot of high achieving kids. I'm not sure it's pressure, so much as being products of their upbringing, if that makes sense.

[citymama]

A highly ranked school doesn't have to be high pressure. I have plenty of friends in MoCo whose kids seem happy abs challenged in their schools. Would I send my kid to a Challenger type highly academic program? No way. But I wouldn't shy away from a great public school for fear that it would be too high pressure. And it's a lifestyle choice too. I would always choose to live closer to the city (in MoCo, probably) than in a bedroom community, but someone else may actually prefer being in a more suburban setting.

I voted Nay because the notion of "Competitive" does not appeal to me, but qualify that vote with what I wrote above!

[smilequeen]

My kids don't go to public, but honestly I don't think that the best districts have that utter competitiveness here. I think it's a function of the area. But I could be wrong about our public schools.

I would not want my kids in a competitive elementary school. At this age, they need to be learning to enjoy school and enjoy learning, competing only with themselves. At the high school level, I'd be OK with things getting a bit more competitive. My DH wants the kids in the most competitive private middle/high school in town though, and I have other ideas...we'll see how that plays out.

[ett]

There are a few local towns we've crossed off our list due to their reputations for pressured, overscheduled childhoods (and helicopter parents). I vote for good-not-best for a balanced life.

But I realize that it is a hell of a privilege to think that way.

Also want to emphasize that "competitive" does not = "best". Not all top-tier schools are pressure cookers necessarily. There are *lots* of top 20 schools in my state -- Massachusetts, which has GREAT schools -- that I'd be thrilled to move to. You have to go by reputation and talking to people who live there.

:yeahthat: We're in MA too. We are in a town with a very good school system, but it is certainly not the best. We can't afford to live in those towns anyway and even if we could, we wouldn't want to based on the pressure cooker reputations they have. I have friends that live in those towns and I hear about it.

[wolverine2]

I work in one of the top school districts in the state, and could send my kids here if I wanted. We actually chose to send them to a large urban public school district, which as a whole would not even be considered "good." However, I think the education he's getting at his particular school is excellent, and we wanted more diversity and community where we live. The stuff I hear about the pressure at the high school level here makes me not want it. (And when I have 2nd graders telling me they are saving papers for their college portfolio so they can get into a "good" school, I think it's a bit much...)

ETA: I do have friends who moved from where we live to where we work, and they think I must be certifiable to not send my kids here. The only reason they moved here is because the high school is ranked #1 in the state, and they want only the best. They fit in well here.

[lmh2402]

not in DC, but we did move to a town almost exclusively "b/c of the schools."

we made this choice when DS was young and moved when he was just about 18 months of age

and i really regret it. granted, i will admit to struggling out here for many levels, but one of my major regrets and now worries is that our by-the-books looking at numbers and rankings, etc...never even took pressure and stress into account

i realize that sounds probably really stupid, but as FTP, the fact that the school district was #4 in the state to us was exclusively a GOOD thing. we never stopped to think about the possibilities of how or why. we did consider and weigh the cons (there were no pros) of lack of diversity - it's a very homogenous, trendy toward wealthier town. but we decided that for a "first rate education," we would find ways to incorporate diversity into our lives.

fast-forward to a few months ago and i had a few conversations with different moms of school-aged kids, and started observing some of my neighbor's children...and i had the unfortunate realization that i think there is a lot of pressure on the kids in this town to perform.

and wouldn't you know it, but my kid is turning out to be a kid that i don't think is going to respond well to pressure. he's highly anxious and sensitive and reactionary as it is... so the thought of putting him into a school system where i've now met kindergarteners who are crying their eyes out on sunday nights b/c they are "scared" of school the next day...gives me massive stomach pains

so we'll have to see how it goes. we're not really in a position to move right now b/c we would lose money on the house, we have no other ideas of where to go, and my DH really wants to give things a shot and see how it goes

but if there are any signs of serious mental/physical/emotional toll on DS, once he actually enters school, we're going to have to reevaluate ASAP.

i really, really wish we had been more thoughtful (like you are being) about the decision. if i had to do it over again, i would look for good, but specifically NOT the best.

[Tondi G]

I think it really depends on the child. You might have one who is an accelerated learner and enjoys the fast pace and "pressure". If you have a child who is average it might be too stressful.

[sste]

I think the decision is best made with inside information if you can get it. It would be a bummer to end up in school that was competive AND not comparably great academically, for example.

I have been all over the map with this. We were in a low-income, highly diverse preschool that was great . . . until it lost its funding. It was just too "on the edge" financially. We then considered moving to a top school district in the country that is nationally infamous - - I actually studied it in a class in college. The elementary schools were incredible and not high-pressure but the high school is insanely high-pressure (I actually know some guidance counselors as some of our former sitters went that route - - guidance counselor friends can give you a whole new perspective on area schools!).

Anyway, I am pretty sure we are going to stay in our current "good" but not "top", diverse but not on the edge financially, district. In addition to talking to the guidance counselor friends and our former parent coach who placed kids in the particular school we are districted for, a few of my colleagues have kids in the school. My colleagues are VERY similar to me and have extremely high standards for education, their kids are very similar to my kids, etc.. I was able to get the full story on whether their kids were bored, the best teachers in the school, additional services and how to get them, and also the kinds of camp/lessons/enrichment in our community to supplement with privately. And they were able to tell me that this school had been a warm and nurturing place for their kids which was a big deal to me . . .

[MissyAg94]

I think you are very smart to consider what "best" means to your family. We live in Fairfax County also but we decided not use the public schools. We home school and I can't count the number of HS families that we know who have pulled their kids out of "some of the best schools in the country." (How do they get that name? Test scores?) A child with involved parents will very likely be successful whether they are in the "best" schools or the "good" schools or even "poor" schools. They don't have to be in a competitive school to succeed. They just need a good solid education.

P.S. We HS Kindergarten and I also spend WAY more time on reading and math than on history or science but not for testing purposes. I just feel that she needs a good foundation in those areas before moving on to more diverse curricula next year. (You can read non fiction books on science and history at home to make up for any perceived gaps). I wouldn't hold it against the school though I know teaching for the test is done in the PS here.

[Kindra178]

We then considered moving to a top school district in the country that is nationally infamous - - I actually studied it in a class in college. .

Funny. That's the school district I was referring to upthread.

[sste]

Ah, Kindra we could have been neighbors and swapped SAT-prep books . . . :)

[wellyes]

I think it really depends on the child. You might have one who is an accelerated learner and enjoys the fast pace and "pressure". If you have a child who is average it might be too stressful.
I wonder how common those kids are: kids also have to excel at a sport, student government, the play, the robotics team, do some travel abroad, navigate the social scene, all on top of the academic intensity. Being able to do that is a race to the best college, which is a race to the best job offer, which is a race to.... I don't know what. It's a totally legit choice for a family, but I can think of a whole lot of reasons someone other than "average" would reject it.

[stinkyfeet]

I wonder how common those kids are: kids also have to excel at a sport, student government, the play, the robotics team, do some travel abroad, navigate the social scene, all on top of the academic intensity. Being able to do that is a race to the best college, which is a race to the best job offer, which is a race to.... I don't know what. It's a totally legit choice for a family, but I can think of a whole lot of reasons someone other than "average" would reject it.

Thanks for all of the responses. Yes, this above quote is what the book The Overachievers is about at these high-achieving school pyramids. I went to a very typical high school and was probably considered an overachiever there (was one of the 30 "smart" kids in the class, but I wonder if my confidence would have been low if I went to a high achieving school system since everyone around me would have been top-notch at everything.

I guess I want my kids to be challenged at school while at the same time enjoy their childhood.

[crl]

I wonder how common those kids are: kids also have to excel at a sport, student government, the play, the robotics team, do some travel abroad, navigate the social scene, all on top of the academic intensity. Being able to do that is a race to the best college, which is a race to the best job offer, which is a race to.... I don't know what. It's a totally legit choice for a family, but I can think of a whole lot of reasons someone other than "average" would reject it.

The robotics team. :hysterical: Yes, we are trying to avoid the Palo Alto schools. :hysterical: I went to the only public high school in a big town in the mid-west so all of this seems so extreme to me. The idea that there is a robotics team in Palo Alto, yet not enough money in San Francisco for my second grader to get pull out help in reading. Sigh. (Yes, I know the parents/donations are probably paying for the robotics team.) Sorry to go off topic.

Catherine

[lablover]

Can someone tell me what the very best pyramids/top high schools are in Fairfax County these days? I'm assuming Falls Church City is one of them. I'm just curious since I grew up going to Fairfax County schools so it would be interesting to hear if things have changed. We are in Loudoun now so I don't really pay attention.

[TwinFoxes]

OP, I would encourage you to talk to more parents of kids in FFx. The (admittedly few) HS kids I know are just regular kids who have fun, go to football games, hang out with friends etc. they don't seem to be running in a hamster wheel. I agree with Citymama, that high achieving doesn't have to mean high pressure.

Can I ask what your alternate school district would be?

[TwinFoxes]

Can someone tell me what the very best pyramids/top high schools are in Fairfax County these days? I'm assuming Falls Church City is one of them. I'm just curious since I grew up going to Fairfax County schools so it would be interesting to hear if things have changed. We are in Loudoun now so I don't really pay attention.

To put it delicately, I think things have changed. But like I say, the schools people complain about in FFx would have people lined up outside them in LA.

[Globetrotter]

i really, really wish we had been more thoughtful (like you are being) about the decision. if i had to do it over again, i would look for good, but specifically NOT the best.


OMG, lmh2402, I could have written your post!

We chose our neighborhood for the top ranking schools and have since swtiched to a different school that is less competitive but where I feel the quality of instruction is better. I guess competitive means different things to different people.
Our local school is infamous for being a pressure cooker, which results in cheating and excessive stress for the kids. Personally, we have very high standards and want our kids to be challenged. I think it's important to be surrounded by kids who plan to go to college. However, I don't think that putting a child in a high pressure environment is the way to go.

Don't define schools only by test scores. The test scores are meaningless when a majority of the students go for tutoring after school (to get ahead) and study for gifted entrance tests. Also keep in mind that the parents in these places tend to be well educated and have the ability to help their kids.
You should see Race to Nowhere! Also check out this website:
http://www.challengesuccess.org/ (one of their targets was Palo Alto :))

[elektra]

This has been a hard question to answer for myself. Maybe it's somewhat irrelevant for me anyway because I live in CA where supposedly the schools are horrible in comparison, but despite the articles about overall success being defined as more than test scores, I am getting some "Tiger Mom" tendencies starting to creep up!
I do find value in high expectations, being well rounded, and I am getting worried my DC will miss the boat if we don't "stay in the race".
So in theory I do believe that less competitive is better for the overall emotional well being of my kids. But like I said, I am sort of torn because I was that student who was in AP, did sports, had a full social calendar in HS, traveled abroad, (no robotics club though!)..... I definitely felt the pressure. But at least for me- that led to being a responsible and high achieving student and athlete. I was less tempted to veer off my path to success.
I'm sure many of us BBB'ers were actually, based on our education levels at least- do you wish things would have been different for you?

And it's hard to know at this point, with my DD not starting school yet, what kind of learner she will really be and in what environment she would really thrive.
When we bought our house part of the reason was because of the "great school" across the street too and we didn't really know many details. But even if we had known, I am not sure if we would have been able to even realize the concern at that point- that it might not be the best fit as far as the competitive (or lack thereof) nature of the school environment.

[sste]

Elektra, you are a competitor and it is a wonderful trait properly channeled - - you can't change that about yourself and shouldn't. How many athletes aren't competitive?

For kids, I think it is very important that competition be channeled to a worthy goal of the individual's own choosing. And that it not get so out of hand that the child is afraid to fail, then afraid to even try.

I also think it can very hard in some ways if you had a privileged childhood in terms of parent involvement, resources, enrichment, schooling, whatever. Because I think alot of people look at that and say geez, look at all the resources I rec'd and some days I feel like I am barely afloat, what does this mean for my kids! I think that is the source of alot of parental anxiety.

IMO, good habits of the mind, a healthy psyche and positive attitude, an eye for opportunity (often outside of the competitive mainstream), some passion for what you do, and close social ties are going to be much bigger predictors of life outcomes than things like workbooks or redshirting or gifted classes or test scores or whatnot.

So, I am not saying don't compete . . . I am saying choose your targets carefully and let your DC choose their targets too. :)

[kijip]

I am all for challenging materials and deep, critical thinking. I don't think that programs that are rigorous need to necessarily foster competitiveness or pressure.

But I am the mom of a kid who would consider that robotics team to be pretty much the coolest thing ever, so my thoughts are geared to his needs. My younger son will perhaps need something wholly different. I really do think the type of child and their personality is a high factor but since most parents have more than 1 kid, we are all going to be looking to make something work for our kid even if it is not ideal at some point.

[AnnieW625]

To put it delicately, I think things have changed. But like I say, the schools people complain about in FFx would have people lined up outside them in LA.

That is how people here in Long Beach feel they b!tch about LB schools not having anything, but would rather live here than deal with LA Unified. When we moved here DH said we could not live anywhere in the LAUSD.

[bisous]

To put it delicately, I think things have changed. But like I say, the schools people complain about in FFx would have people lined up outside them in LA.

My sister teachers ESOL in a Fairfax County high school. She says she cannot even begin to compare the education we had in CA to what she has access to where you live! It's like another universe. :) And we're not in LAUSD, but in a much smaller "higher" district.

[bisous]

IMO, good habits of the mind, a healthy psyche and positive attitude, an eye for opportunity (often outside of the competitive mainstream), some passion for what you do, and close social ties are going to be much bigger predictors of life outcomes than things like workbooks or redshirting or gifted classes or test scores or whatnot.

:)

I love this. I grew up in a pretty non-competitive high school. It was very low-ranked for the area and I grew up in CA. BUT, I had lots of free time and good friends and I felt really healthy mentally, not tired or stressed but content and positive. I was well prepared for and accepted into my first choice college. I look back on my high school years with fondness. We only knew a handful of people accepted into the top schools out of my high school (but there were a few--my sis was waitlisted at Harvard) but I achieved my goals just fine regardless. Could I have attended a *better* school had I attended another high school? Probably not but maybe I'd feel worse about it, lol. To put it into perspective I was a National Merit Finalist.

[dcmom2b3]

I also think it can very hard in some ways if you had a privileged childhood in terms of parent involvement, resources, enrichment, schooling, whatever. Because I think alot of people look at that and say geez, look at all the resources I rec'd and some days I feel like I am barely afloat, what does this mean for my kids! I think that is the source of alot of parental anxiety.

IMO, good habits of the mind, a healthy psyche and positive attitude, an eye for opportunity (often outside of the competitive mainstream), some passion for what you do, and close social ties are going to be much bigger predictors of life outcomes than things like workbooks or redshirting or gifted classes or test scores or whatnot.

So, I am not saying don't compete . . . I am saying choose your targets carefully and let your DC choose their targets too. :)

sste, thank you for this. You just single-handedly gave me huge insight into my own anxiety. Do you accept insurance? Do you have a couch that I could lie on? :D My parents were lower middle-class, but gave me so much that I may not be able to replicate with DD -- and it's making me a little nuts.

I think that all children deserve an academically rigorous education, but because of social and economic influences, I think that academic rigor frequently ends up correlating (perhaps falsely, perhaps not)with competitive academic environments.

That said, in choosing schools to apply to for next year, I did not even consider those that have a reputation of being pressure cookers [warning: shameless mommy-brag follows] though Bunny's test scores certainly indicate that she would likely be just fine academically at any of them, and people think I'm a little nuts for not "aiming for the best." Meh. Whatevs. Right now, she's a flaky-bakey little girl with an artist's spirit who just happens to test well. If it turns out that she does crave a competitive environment, we can always change schools later. But I want her to love school ALWAYS. I've come to realize that trying to map out a 13-year master plan for my 5 y.o.'s education really isn't a fruitful use of my energy, because I can't predict who she'll be 5, 10 years from now.

[Globetrotter]

But I am the mom of a kid who would consider that robotics team to be pretty much the coolest thing ever, so my thoughts are geared to his needs.

:yeahthat: My kids are into that sort of thing. The nice thing is, in our new school, they have the time to pursue challenging extracurriculars because they aren't staying up until midnight doing worksheets ;) They have time to do a really good job on their projects, whereas in the old school they had to rush through since the workload was so high (for elem.). I would actually say that ds is MORE challenged in the new school because the teacher takes the time to understand his interests and needs.

[sste]

Ladies, I hate to tell you all but I am a professor in a business field. My insights of late are born of . . . procrastination on a publication deadline!

However, if I had a couch any BBer would be welcome. :)

[TwinFoxes]

I've come to realize that trying to map out a 13-year master plan for my 5 y.o.'s education really isn't a fruitful use of my energy, because I can't predict who she'll be 5, 10 years from now.

You should be the one who's charging for advice! This is so very true.

[kijip]

I voted for pumpkin pie because let's face it, pumpkin pie makes all decisions easier to swallow.

[codex57]

If you really know what you're doing in terms of education, etc and are totally confident in your child never hanging with the wrong crowd, then sure.

Too many variables to me.

DW went to a nationally famous high school in the Bay Area. US Supreme Court justices went there.

I went to the top academic school in the state. We had a book written about us, cept the asswipe "writer" had an agenda and really didn't represent the school properly. So, don't always believe what you read (or watch).

In any case, there are very good reasons for sending your kid to a top and competitive school.

He'll be surrounded by ambitious and/or high achieving kids. I ran with the wrong crowd for a while. Luckily for me, they were older so when they graduated, I then hung out with friends from my own class, and because of their influence, I learned better study habits, tips on getting into college, improving my resume in a meaningful way, etc. If I had gone to a "regular" school, it's almost assured that I wouldn't be as successful as I am now. I thought college was a cakewalk after my high school. Grad school was fun and comforting because even tho I was surrounded by brilliant people, that's what I was used to from high school. I was never scared or intimidated like some people were who didn't come from competitive schools.

My mom was great. She was a very conscientious parent in terms of trying to get me a good education and other experiences. But she only knew so much. Was relatively clueless in terms of how to get into a good college. This is where going to a top school was great. We didn't need our counselor. The kids all knew far more than any high school counselor I've ever talked to. My sister went to the regular school (also top ranked, but not like mine). It was necessary for her (she was an athlete and my school was completely unable to deal with nationally ranked individual sport athletes), but it highlighted the advantages of going to a top competitive school.

DW had a similar experience. Her family was on welfare. They believed in education, but that vague "belief" was as far as it went. She had no family support. Couldn't ask for help on homework, etc. Was barely able to find time and space to even do homework. No way she would have known anything but to go to the local CC had she gone to her regular school (which wasn't great). However, because she went to that top magnet school, her surrounding peers (some of whom naturally became her friends) broadened her horizon as to what colleges (and how to get in them) were available as well as what jobs to strive for. She went from thinking $40,000 would be a great job and life to realizing she could make six figures and more. Quite a jump in life outlook for a kid on welfare.

F*** diversity in high school. You can get that at a good college on your way to a great career.

[TwinFoxes]

Wait, whoa, where the heck did YOU come from Codex? Welcome back. (I haven't read your post...)

[smiles33]

OT: Codex is back! You've been missed!

Ok, back to your regular programming....

[egoldber]

I think there all kinds of wrong crowds though. One of the "dangers" in sending a kid to a "top" high high school is that often correlates with wealth and skewed perceptions of reality. I think it can be just as dangerous in some ways for a child to go to a school where everyone drives a fancy car, takes fancy vacations, etc. as it can be to go to a school where college is not an expectation. (FWIW, I went to the latter type of school, where even safety in the halls was not always a guarantee, so I know well what that type of thinking does to expectations.)

A friend of mine lives in one of the wealthiest areas in FCPS and the amount of keeping up that she feels she has to do with her kids astounds me. It is not my reality at all in a much less wealthy part of the county.

[Cam&Clay]

Congrats on selling your home. We're in Fairfax County in a good school district, but not one of the top pyramids, and I'm totally fine with that. I'm not sure I would want one of the high pressure systems.

:yeahthat: Same here. We are on the west side of Fairfax County. Some would say our pyramid isn't as desirable, but we love it. It's very diverse. We think the schools are excellent.

[KpbS]

I think there all kinds of wrong crowds though. One of the "dangers" in sending a kid to a "top" high high school is that often correlates with wealth and skewed perceptions of reality. I think it can be just as dangerous in some ways for a child to go to a school where everyone drives a fancy car, takes fancy vacations, etc. as it can be to go to a school where college is not an expectation. (FWIW, I went to the latter type of school, where even safety in the halls was not always a guarantee, so I know well what that type of thinking does to expectations.)

A friend of mine lives in one of the wealthiest areas in FCPS and the amount of keeping up that she feels she has to do with her kids astounds me. It is not my reality at all in a much less wealthy part of the county.

:yeahthat:
This is why I will not send my kids to the "top" private schools in our area. I have know kids who are very well off and they have spoken about how they always feel inadequate and "poor." Friends who have taught in these types schools have complained about kids with $200/weekend spending money and the rampant drug and alcohol use. There is such a thing as too much pressure academically and socially.

[fivi2]

Well, it seems that there are schools that are competitive in academics and schools that are competitive in *everything* (typically the wealthy schools).

I don't have a problem with schools with rigorous academics (assuming my child can handle it). I wasn't pushed enough at my private school and I definitely think it was a problem.

But I am not interested in the wealthy suburban schools that are higher rated than our current school - too much pressure on keeping up with the joneses in all aspects - sports, vacations, cars, electronics/toys, etc.

I don't really want a school where my child can coast and never feel that she has to work hard for something. I want things to be hard, and I want them to have to try.

I also agree with pps that in some schools (because of tests or whatever) the teachers spend so much time with the students who aren't achieving that the students who are get very little attention. So, some of the more competitive schools have fewer outliers and everyone gets more attention.

I guess I think there are too many variables!

[crl]

OT. Hi Codex!

Catherine

[codex57]

Well, it seems that there are schools that are competitive in academics and schools that are competitive in *everything* (typically the wealthy schools).

I don't have a problem with schools with rigorous academics (assuming my child can handle it). I wasn't pushed enough at my private school and I definitely think it was a problem.

DW's school and mine were both public. We had some wealthy kids, but also not so wealthy. Definitely didn't have a "keep up with the Jones'" attitude at either school. DW's was in a major city, and there was a private down the street where the "wealthy" sent their kids. My school was in a small suburb where we just didn't have that kind of wealth (or if it existed, it sure wasn't flaunted). Our schools were pretty diverse socioeconomically (likely cuz they were public). Racially not as diverse, but we certainly got that at our colleges. Comparing the experiences, diversity, especially racial, can be postponed and that exposure can be had later IMO.