Meeting w/teacher - how to approach her (long)

[missym]

I could use some advice before we meet with Becca's Kindergarten teacher next week. We've known this teacher was not a good fit from day 1, but we felt it was best to stick it out because Becca likes her and we didn't want to make waves until we felt there was no choice. The teacher isn't warm & fuzzy at all, she's kind of a yeller, and is very procedure-oriented. Becca OTOH is quite stubborn and doesn't believe in rules (unless you can get her to "buy in" to them), doesn't recognize authority well, and can honestly be quite a handful. Punishment doesn't work with her. She just doesn't care. The more you escalate, the more she digs her heels in. She can be motivated with rewards or praise, but threats don't work.

Becca has just been diagnosed with ADHD with strong emphasis on the hyperactivity. The doc recommends no medication due to her age/weight/etc. She also tested as advanced in the cognitive areas, and the psychologist feels she is acting out mostly out of boredom. School, as you've probably guessed, is a hot mess. The teacher and Becca butt heads constantly. Becca still loves her - I think it would break her heart to switch classes.

Below was yesterday's email as an example of what we're dealing with. To me, it says they just keep piling on the consequences for the same misdeed. We haven't met with the teacher yet about the diagnosis, but the psychologist's recommendations are mostly things we've been trying to tell her all along - positive reinforcement, give her a chance to move around more - plus give her more challenging work because she's bored to death. Any advice on how to approach this in a way that she will *hear* us?


I'm afraid Rebecca ended the day on red, and yesterday was on blue. We've seen a consistent pattern the last few weeks of poor choices. I changed the people at her table and it hasn't made a significant difference although there is less opportunity for her to avoid work. Today, she just wouldn't sit down to work. She was up more than down and avoiding work as a result. I repeatedly asked her to get started, and she was too busy getting up and walking around ... first card pulled. Then, with the walking around behavior continuing, she wasn't getting her math done and instead of completing the work, she just stuck it in her drawer ... second card pulled. At recess I told her to walk the whole time because of a consistent pattern of poor choices and she only walked part of the time. The teacher outside at recess had her sit out the rest of recess and said she could sit out tomorrow's recess as well ... last card pulled.

[brittone2]

Does she have an IEP or 504 in place?

[SnuggleBuggles]

Does she have an IEP or 504 in place?
:yeahthat:

It might make sense to meet with the teacher + special ed. director vs just the teacher. I'd make sure you have one in place. And have added in there that missing the physical activity of recess doesn't help matters...yeesh. If there are accommodations for something like sensory time, that'd be great too. My ds1 spends the first 30 minutes of the day running around and doing other things that are supposed to work out some of his energy. They were also willing to let him have priveleges like delivering messages to the office and such- things that would keep him moving during the day, if needed. As he has gotten older, these accommodations aren't necessary anymore (he never had the H of ADD) but he enjoys them.

[missym]

Does she have an IEP or 504 in place?

Not yet - this will be the school's first official notice of the ADHD diagnosis. The school psych did an evaluation in Nov. (I forget which test) which showed it was very likely, and supposedly they've been operating under that assumption. Things did get better for a while, but we've started getting more emails and red cards sent home again.

ETA: My understanding of our state law (based on having gone through this process with DD1) is that she won't qualify for an IEP but should for a 504 if we need to push for that. With DD1, the school worked with us on an informal plan and we didn't do a 504.

[lil_acorn]

Another recommendation for a 504 and to sit down with the your experts, the school psychologist, special ed coordinator and teacher to determine the best path to get her back on track.

What does your psychologist recommend? What are the tactics that you use at home that have been successful. Is there a reward tied to her behavior at school (that she gets to enjoy at home) and is it a reward she cares about?

GL!

[missym]

Another recommendation for a 504 and to sit down with the your experts, the school psychologist, special ed coordinator and teacher to determine the best path to get her back on track.

What does your psychologist recommend? What are the tactics that you use at home that have been successful. Is there a reward tied to her behavior at school (that she gets to enjoy at home) and is it a reward she cares about?

GL!

The psychologist recommends more positive rewards, both at school and at home, more chances for her to move around during the day, and more challenging work at school. Interestingly, the teacher was marking her as behind in her reading level until they did some big reading evaluation test recently, and suddenly she jumped to mid-1st grade level. She dreaded reading the books she brought home from school, and they were awful. We knew from the books she was pulling off our bookshelf at home that she was reading way beyond that. Math is the same way - the worksheets she brings home are so below what she understands, it's no wonder she hides them in her desk rather than doing them!

We do have rewards tied to school behavior, though not consequences (which is what the teacher wants). She earns a sticker for each day she finishes on green, and she can cash those in for a goal she's working toward (like a toy). We need to be better about emphasizing it every.single.day. It would be nice if the teacher could get on board with it and remind her during the day that she's working toward a sticker.

[MamaMolly]

Mama, the H part of the situation is so important for the teacher to know about. I think you can approach the teacher this way, by telling her that learning of the diagnosis was an Ah-ha moment for YOU. (technically even if it wasn't ;))

On the positive side, she seems to be consistent and is in contact with you. That is a start in the right direction. It sounds to me like she wants to work with you, but she doesn't know what she is dealing with right now.

I must also agree that you need to bring in the Sp. Ed coordinator and school psych. There are accommodations that can be made that will help your DD. She could have an uneven chair to rock in, weighted blankets or a vest to help her feel better sitting down, manipulatives to fiddle with, all kinds of things.

Can I sare a kind of BTDT? I had a first grade student who would NOT stop making noises. Grunting and clicking his throat all.freaking.day.long. It seemed to get worse and worse and worse and NOTHING I tried (positive or negative reinforcement) did anything to stop it. It was loud enough to disturb other kids in the class. One afternoon I got a call from mom, they'd just been to the doctor and the child was diagnosed with Tourettes. Can you imagine how bad I felt, having punished this kid for something he honestly could not control? I apologized to mom. She felt the exact same way. Then I spoke to my student and told him I was sorry, that I had misunderstood, and we were going to work on it.

Another one was when I was teaching summer school. I had a student who simply could not do his work if there were visual distractions around him. Yeah. In an elementary school. He'd get up and adjust posters, line up books, and do all kinds of things that to me seemed like farting around. But one day when we were doing a creative writing exercise he sat under my desk to write and the boy could FOCUS. So guess where he spent the rest of summer school doing work? ;)

As for being bored to death, why not phrase it a little differently. More flies with honey, you know?

[AngB]

The psychologist recommends more positive rewards, both at school and at home, more chances for her to move around during the day, and more challenging work at school. Interestingly, the teacher was marking her as behind in her reading level until they did some big reading evaluation test recently, and suddenly she jumped to mid-1st grade level. She dreaded reading the books she brought home from school, and they were awful. We knew from the books she was pulling off our bookshelf at home that she was reading way beyond that. Math is the same way - the worksheets she brings home are so below what she understands, it's no wonder she hides them in her desk rather than doing them!

We do have rewards tied to school behavior, though not consequences (which is what the teacher wants). She earns a sticker for each day she finishes on green, and she can cash those in for a goal she's working toward (like a toy). We need to be better about emphasizing it every.single.day. It would be nice if the teacher could get on board with it and remind her during the day that she's working toward a sticker.

I also wonder if maybe a more immediate short-term reward would help too (unless the sticker is considered the short term reward, which I know for some kids it would be).

In my special learners class in college, the teacher mentioned that caffeine often calms adhd kids down,(she used to give a student a mountain dew every day-a high schooler with parent permission- and it really helped) not sure how much caffeine it would take but maybe chocolate rewards would help. I suppose it could backfire though too.

[missym]

As for being bored to death, why not phrase it a little differently. More flies with honey, you know?

I know, I know! How do I diplomatically say, you're boring my child, or even, you're wrong about her abilities? My understanding is, our district doesn't exactly have a gifted program - they do advanced enrichment in the classroom, and the teacher has to identify the kids for inclusion in it. So she's been saying all along Becca was behind in her reading, for example, when we *knew* she wasn't. How could we argue with her without looking like *those* parents? And maybe Becca wasn't reading for her. Maybe she was being stubborn, or not paying attention, or whatever. But the child can read. Math is the same way. We're supposed to practice these math sheets 5 times a week and they're so boring for Becca. I finally just stopped doing it. She corrects her 3rd grade sister, for pity's sake.

[maestramommy]

:hug5: The fact that Beeca loves this teacher should make it easier. Focusing on the H part, is there any way to ask if the teacher could make her a helper, to give her ops to move around the class but keeping her busy?

Since you now have a diagnosis, I'd ask for some official plan in place with the necessary accommodations. Maybe go in with a list from the psychologist and see what the teacher is able to work with?

[brittone2]

I know, I know! How do I diplomatically say, you're boring my child, or even, you're wrong about her abilities? My understanding is, our district doesn't exactly have a gifted program - they do advanced enrichment in the classroom, and the teacher has to identify the kids for inclusion in it. So she's been saying all along Becca was behind in her reading, for example, when we *knew* she wasn't. How could we argue with her without looking like *those* parents? And maybe Becca wasn't reading for her. Maybe she was being stubborn, or not paying attention, or whatever. But the child can read. Math is the same way. We're supposed to practice these math sheets 5 times a week and they're so boring for Becca. I finally just stopped doing it. She corrects her 3rd grade sister, for pity's sake.
Blame it on the evaluator. You have findings indicating she can read at a first grade level, etc. Use the results of your independent evaluation and tell them one suggestion was that she may be more attentive if she had access to appropriately challenging material.

[Green_Tea]

I know, I know! How do I diplomatically say, you're boring my child, or even, you're wrong about her abilities? My understanding is, our district doesn't exactly have a gifted program - they do advanced enrichment in the classroom, and the teacher has to identify the kids for inclusion in it. So she's been saying all along Becca was behind in her reading, for example, when we *knew* she wasn't. How could we argue with her without looking like *those* parents? And maybe Becca wasn't reading for her. Maybe she was being stubborn, or not paying attention, or whatever. But the child can read. Math is the same way. We're supposed to practice these math sheets 5 times a week and they're so boring for Becca. I finally just stopped doing it. She corrects her 3rd grade sister, for pity's sake.

How frustrating, for you and for the teacher!

Teachers are in a tough spot when it comes to assessing a child's reading, because they can't simply go off what a parent tells them. Being able to read 2nd or 3rd or 4th grade level text doesn't necessarily mean that that's you're reading level, it simply means that you can decode at that level. Math presents similar challenges - some kids have an innate understanding of certain advanced math concepts, but it's important that their teacher knows if they understand all the foundational concepts that support higher level learning down the road.

It certainly sounds like Becca does need to be challenged at a higher level than she is currently, and that she is, indeed, disengaged (which might be a less inflammatory way to says she's bored.) Can you ask the teacher what assessment tools they are using to measure her levels for math and reading, and see if they'd be willing to try some other forms of assessment to see if they garner different results?

You will likely need to meet in the middle in terms of what you think she can do, and what they think based on assessments. Teachers can't take the liberty of simply meeting kids where they think they are, they need data to support their instructional choices, especially when those choices are differentiated. This can work against a kid, but it can also work FOR them. When my own oldest DD was in K, I requested that she was assessed by a member of the 1st grade team after I repeatedly told her teacher I thought she needed a greater challenge - and I was right! Of course, the child also needs to demonstrate their ability, and that might be something that doesn't start happening until some of the behavioral stuff is addressed in a new way.

I hope the meeting goes well. Hopefully with the introduction of her diagnosis, her teacher will gain access to resources through the school and you can develop a formal plan for dealing with these challenges. Try to stay upbeat and optimistic with the teacher, and remember that she's working hard to meet all of her students' needs. Every teacher I know wants all their students to succeed, and wants their parents to assume that about them.

My fingers and toes are crossed that you make some headway!
:hug5:

[lil_acorn]

I wonder if a more short term rewards system would do better than working towards a toy as that can take a long time. Maybe that becomes a milestone reward. For my ds, he loves his electronics time so a good day at school - 30 minutes electronics time to be used in the evenings. You would need to figure out what Becca's key careabout is.

[swissair81]

I'm sure it's going to be hard to find a diplomatic way to tell the teacher that she needs to change tactics. Maybe it would be helpful to emphasize how much Becca likes her. Flattery is often helpful.

[missym]

I wonder if a more short term rewards system would do better than working towards a toy as that can take a long time. Maybe that becomes a milestone reward. For my ds, he loves his electronics time so a good day at school - 30 minutes electronics time to be used in the evenings. You would need to figure out what Becca's key careabout is.

This is a good suggestion. We have a tendency to avoid electronics because they wind her older sister up, but that may be unfair to Becca - I'm not certain they have the same effect on her. We'll give it a try to see what happens. Finding her currency can be a challenge because she's pretty good at entertaining herself regardless of the circumstances (including during time-out). She values *stuff* - she's a big collector of you-name-it - but there's only so much junky little stuff I can stand to hand out! That's one reason we have her saving for larger items, but I can see the need for a more immediate reward.

[sste]

Can your psychologist phone the teacher at some point or meet with her? Our former parent coach (behavioral psychologist) did this all.the.time for her patients - - in fact it was a major part of her job. I think most of the kids she did this for had a 504/IEP but some did not and were just having short-term problems or were in process for an IEP/504.

In any meeting, I try to acknowledge the other person's interests and define our common ground. "I know you are over-busy with X number of little people, all with their own personalities and needs. We know DD's issues are taking alot of your time right now. It is a frustrating situation for everyone, including DD. If we can work together to improve DD's behavior it will be a better situation DD AND for the class as a whole and for you, so you can concentrate more on teaching rather than discipline."

Maybe you could then set the stage with the teacher by asking, "We are still learning how things work at this school. Are you open to trying some other behavior change methods in addition to what you are using?" Most people at this stage will say yes or risk looking like an uncooperative jack*ss. THAT is your opening to say we are working with a psychologist who has some specific suggestions for a behavior change plan. We would like to put you two in touch."

The psychologist - - or even the school guidance counselor - - is a neutral and professional third party who should be able to facilitate things and avoid a deadlock with the teacher saying "this is the way we do it" and the parent saying, "but you just don't understand DD" and the teaching thinking, "If I had a nickel for every parent that said that to me, etc." The psychologist/guidance counselor, just by virtue of her involvement, reframes the problem from what the teacher may be viewing as naughty kid/demanding parents to "here is a child with documented needs." Again, I bet 504 is best but in the meantime I think you may still be able to involve a psychologist.

[SummerBaby]

Oh boy can I relate to this post. You've basically described my older DD (also ADHD). She made it through K more or less ok, but 1st and 2nd grade have been pretty bad. She is also immune to consequences. Thankfully her teacher this year is really flexible and has come up with some creative strategies to help her. Some of the things she's done include allowing DD to stand up to do her work, allowing her to sit in a rocking chair instead of the floor, allowing her to use a stress ball ( which worked until DD decided to play "golf" with it and it sailed across the room). Basically anything that allows DD to get up, this teacher allows. After DD glued herself to her desk (!!) during math instruction last fall, we decided to move her supplies from her desk to the windowsill. This removed the distraction of playing with the supplies, and also allows her to get up when she needs something. We are still struggling with finding more helpful accommodations and working on a 504 plan, but this has been helpful. I honestly think the best strategy, while not technically an accommodation, has been having a really understanding, flexible teacher. Last year , her first grade teacher was similar to what you describe about your dd's teacher- negative reinforcement, and inability to see DD's strengths and cognitive ability. Last year I was told DD had little to no reading comprehension, which I knew was not true- she could read the newspaper. I think she was just totally bored with the readers they used, and also was intimidated by the teacher asking her about what she read in front of the class. Her teacher this year, on the other hand, gives the kids much more leeway in what they read. Basically, if you can, request that next year your DD be given a teacher who is flexible and is willing to be creative to accommodate an ADHD kid. Good luck- I know how it feels!!!

[kijip]

I would push to have a meeting with the person who evaluated her and the teacher and you. Then it shifts the dynamics from mom says the child need x to mom is trying to work with the teacher to find a plan that accommodates the findings of the professional who did the evaluation. Teachers often assume that when a parent says that a student is reading above level that they are decoding above level. It was not until the school saw the actual report that said reading at a 5th grade level with the details to back up the comphension that they "got" that we were not prone to exaggeration. By the time we took that step, it was the end of the year and we moved to a different school for 1st. It is great that you have the report in hand about her needs and capacities while there is still some year left :thumbsup:

[Robyn0204]

I admit that I haven't read the rest of the responses but really???? They had a child that is having a hard time sitting in class SIT at recess???? Maybe encouraging her to run during recess would've helped her better???

Ugh! I am sorry you are dealing with this. My friend's daughter had this happen to her in Kindergarten. I don't believe her DD has an official diagnosis but sounds a lot like your description of your DD. It makes my blood boil when someone takes recess time away from children. They barely have enough time to exercise their bodies with the limited recess time as it is!

[Fairy]

I don't have anything to add that you haven't already gotten here in this thread. I just wanted to send hugs and mojo for the talk with the teacher.

[spunkybaby]

Sending you a hug. :grouphug:

Unfortunately, I have no helpful advice to offer, but I just wanted to send my sympathies and good wishes for your conversation with Becca's teacher. I'm also struggling with parent-teacher-school interactions. Who knew that it would be so difficult to know what to say and how to say it? The ramifications of our conversations can seem so huge, yet it's hard to predict how people will react and how our kids will be affected.

I'm glad that others have been able to provide you with some words to use and thoughts on how to proceed. I hope that the teacher will receive your input well and will work with you to help your daughter succeed in the classroom.

[Uno-Mom]

Can I sare a kind of BTDT? I had a first grade student who would NOT stop making noises. Grunting and clicking his throat all.freaking.day.long. It seemed to get worse and worse and worse and NOTHING I tried (positive or negative reinforcement) did anything to stop it. It was loud enough to disturb other kids in the class. One afternoon I got a call from mom, they'd just been to the doctor and the child was diagnosed with Tourettes. Can you imagine how bad I felt, having punished this kid for something he honestly could not control? I apologized to mom. She felt the exact same way. Then I spoke to my student and told him I was sorry, that I had misunderstood, and we were going to work on it.

I couldn't read and not respond to this post. On behalf of the special-needs kids I represent...you're response was amazing! I understand how awful it feels when you find out a diagnosis was beneath problem behavior. However, that child will forEVER remember that a respected adult teacher came to him and apologized for not understanding. That's amazing and I'm sure he learned so much from your response!

To Missy: why the freakin, freakin %*#$#@&@#$ do they punish these kids by removing recess???? I mean, seriously. Seriously, people! I have heard that in so many IEP meetings and it makes me want to tear out my hair.

Sorry, that probably isn't real helpful but I had to get it off my chest. I hope you have a productive talk with the teacher!

[JustMe]

Hugs!

I agree with the others who suggest involving professionals directly in the meeting with the teacher. It has been my sad but true experience that what professionals say hold a lot more weight than what a parent has to say. Sometimes I am in a meeting as a professional and sometimes a a parent..wow, what a difference. Pretty ironic that its a lot easier to advocate for someone else's kid than for mine, but that's another story.

The positive thing is that it seems that you do have professionals who "get" what is going on with B.and you're on the same page as them? Use that to B's advantage!

[Cam&Clay]

I'm in a hurry and didn't read above but I have to say one thing about her saying that Becca made "poor choices." She has been diagnosed with ADHD. Children with ADHD do not make poor choices. They cannot help themselves. Any teacher with any knowledge of ADHD should realize that. Her job (and yours) is to help guide her throughout the day using various coping strategies. She should not be blamed for "poor choices."