daycare across the street from my house!

[knaidel]

There is a large house directly across the street from me. It was sold about 6 weeks ago and has remained vacant. I saw a lady outside this morning, and being nosey, I went over and introduced myself to the new neighbor. She is NOT the neighbor, she told me.....she is the ARCHITECT! The new owner is planning on turning the house into a daycare center.

So I looked up the zoning for my block, and it's allowed by "special exception"-- meaning, there will be a hearing, but it can be allowed-- up to 40 children.

I have no problem with these people opening a daycare on my block-- I think it would be a big help to the neighborhoood. However, I have some concerns (especially since it's directly across the street from me). I called my councilwoman, and the person I spoke to there suggested I get together with the neighbors and make a list of our concerns and present them to the owner before the hearing.

Here are my concerns, and please, let me know if there is anything else that I should add to my list:

1) garbage: amount and removal--- what if day care is closed on days prior to neighborhood pick up? who will put out garbage? how much garbage will be generated?

2) snow removal: how will snow be shoveled when day care is closed? who will shovel the sidewalk outside?

3) Pick up and drop off..... this is a big one. i don't want people blocking my driveway when I'm in a rush to get out at 8:10. I don't want cars double parked on my street when I need to get through.

what else do I want to mention? can you smart ladies think of anything?

[indigo99]

We don't have much snow around here, but is a property owner responsible for shoveling the sidewalk anyway? That one seemed strange to me, but maybe I misunderstood.

Traffic seems like a HUGE problem. Is it on-street parking there or are they required to have spaces available? If there isn't room for cars to pull out of the way then they would definitely need a good solution for that.

Don't businesses usually have a different garbage service than houses? Seems like they would need regular pick-up from someone who comes onto the property and empties one of those larger metal cans. You don't want a big can of dirty diapers sitting on a neighbor's property for a week .. seems like a rodent/bug issue.

[wellyes]

The only thing I'd be concerned about it traffic, parking and signage. I was just dropping my DD off preschool this morning thinking "I wonder if this people knew they were signing up to have their block packed full of idling cars every morning and afternoon".

We've been to a few different places over the years, and I've never known there to be problems with driveways getting blocked. But I have ALWAYS seen cars next to all the adjoining properties. So, if you are someone who does not like to have a car next to their house (which can mean on the grass if you have no sidewalk), that is something to think about.

[WatchingThemGrow]

Is this a residential area? I would want to make sure that all the big plastic Little Tikes stuff is out of sight and that it still looks residential enough that you don't cringe every time you look outside.

[TwinFoxes]

Can't you look at the plans they submitted for approval? It seems it would help you figure out what issues there might be. If you go in with a whole list of already addressed concerns, your valid concerns might not get as much attention, you know?

[cvanbrunt]

Forty kids? That seems like an awfully big special exception for a neighborhood daycare. Totally "not in my backyard" on my part but I would fight it. I'd worry about delivery trucks. What time will deliveries occur? Also, with a daycare that big, I might investigate having the area zoned for residential parking only and force the issue on the owner to have enough pick up and drop off space. I'd also worry about signage. A big ugly sign in the front yard would bother me.

[Smillow]

There is a daycare down the hill on the next street on the corner (one block in from a commercial street). I am one house from the corner on one block and they are on the corner on the next block, one street over... They do have lots of garbage on the one day a week we have pickup, but I don't notice the traffic (would be different if they were right on our street, however - almost everyone parks on the street as the neighborhood is quite old). Because our streets are tiered (the next street is significantly lower (downhill) than our street) we do hear the noise of the kids playing outside, but this doesn't bother me in the least (now the dogs on our street - don't get me started).

[wellyes]

Is this a residential area? I would want to make sure that all the big plastic Little Tikes stuff is out of sight and that it still looks residential enough that you don't cringe every time you look outside.
I think you would not want to be my neighbor! I have that stuff out.

[LBW]

My youngest attends a preschool that is set in a residential neighborhood. It's been there for decades and the current owner does a lot to keep the neighbors happy. Still, I know there are issues that do crop up.

The biggest issues, by far, have to do with drop off/pick up traffic and parking. I think she's done an excellent job scheduling classes so that there isn't a mass rush in or out at one time. Also, the school has a staff parking lot on one side of the property and a circular driveway on the other. 90% of parents use the circular driveway for p/u and drop off. This keeps the traffic moving and keeps most of the cars off the street. If, for some reason, we anticipate needing to spend some extra time at p/u or drop off, we are supposed to park on the curb in front of the school only. However, I cringe nearly every day when I see parents parked in front of other homes.

So, if I were you, I'd be primarily concerned about the traffic control plan and the parking plan (for staff and students). Hopefully the town will expect the owner to plan for all parking on her property. And hopefully the owner will put rules in place that encourage considerate behavior on the part of her parents.

Since the daycare would be new, and there will be lots of kinks to work out, I'd ask that the town station an officer on the street to help control traffic/enforce rules at the beginning in order to get parents used to doing things correctly.

You might want to also ask about hours. Is she expecting a lot of traffic at 6am? How late? What about special events? Will she have things going on at the weekend, holidays, evenings? Will it be a 12-month daycare, or a school-year preschool? Will she be feeding the children? If so, will there be commercial food deliveries? Can the hours for those be limited?

If I think of anything else, I'll add.

[KrisM]

We don't have much snow around here, but is a property owner responsible for shoveling the sidewalk anyway? That one seemed strange to me, but maybe I misunderstood.


Yes a property owner is responsible for shoveling the sidwalk. My current neighborhood doesn't have them, but in the past I have. It was my job to keep the walks clear of snow.

[mikala]

I agree with the others to focus on traffic and signage. I'd want to know the specific daycare hours and if they will have staggered dropoff times. They should have a parking plan where they account for the number of spaces needed for staff members and the max number of parents expected at any given time.

You may also want to ask about lighting plans if it's a residential area that is normally fairly dark at night. Sometimes commercial properties put up spotlights and other things that can be disruptive.

[infocrazy]

You might want to check if the hearing has already taken place... If I were the new owner, I would want to get everything approved before I purchased the house/hired the architect etc... I'm not sure if it is possible to do that prior to the purchase, and maybe that is why the lag of 6 weeks, but it is certainly something I'd want to know before I determined how to proceed. I'd also try and get an idea of how big it is going to be as well ie are you talking a small daycare center, or an in-home daycare? That would also change how I would proceed. You said it CAN be allowed up to 40 children, but will it actually be that big? or is that just how big it CAN be?

Other concerns I didn't see listed:
1. Fire lane established if you can park on both sides of the street
2. Are they going to bus to the schools? Where will the bus park?

[niccig]

DS's school is off a busy road in a commercial area -so neighbours are other business. At pick-up, the cars can be backed up around the corner onto the busy street. Because of parked cars, and then the carpool line, you have to drive on the other side of the road to get past the car pool line to get to a business further down the street.

It's not always an issue, but occasionally someone is in the carpool line, doesn't know it's carpool, and beeps their horn as can't work out why cars are stopped. Teachers who do drop off will walk back to the person, inform them there is a school there and if no one is coming the other way, they can go around them.

We're told to not double park, to not do a u-turn in someone's driveway - but everyone does as there's a parking spot on the other side of the street - we don't have a school parking lot, so if you want to walk in, you have to do street parking. People normally park 1-2 blocks away and walk in.

On the street that we live, there is a school 1.5 miles down the road from us. Similar kind of issue at drop off and pick up - there is designated pull in area, but it can back up onto the driving lane. It's never been a huge issue for us, but we know at certain times, it'll take a couple more minutes to get past the school traffic. I do think the people that live right opposite would have more issues in pulling out of their driveway. There is a crossing guard and teachers doing drop off and they regulate it pretty well. There's another nearby school where people double park in the line of traffic, open door and yell for kids to run out into the street. I avoid that street as it's a madhouse.

Some days DS's school and the local school have no issues with drop offs/pick ups. Other days, it's more messed up.

If the daycare drop-off and pick up times are more staggered, it wouldn't be so bad. DS's preschool was in a church and we used the church parking lot. There was never a big rush, as some kids were there earlier, and some came in later. Same with pick-up. So, it might not be such an issue.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Do they operate any other sites? If so, you can scope out what they are like.

[chozen]

we had a daycare next door to a house we owned at one time, at first i really did not think it was a big deal we'll i soon changed my mind. there were cars dropping off and picking up all day from 6:00am-6:00pm, we lived on a dead end street and because of all the traffic it made it hard for other kids to play. she would set up cones outside so that her daycare kids could use the street to play with there cars etc. constant noise and traffic. :irked:

[jawilli4]

I'd also be worried about house values depreciating in the neighborhood because of the daycare. Sorry you have to deal with this.

[knaidel]

I'd also be worried about house values depreciating in the neighborhood because of the daycare. Sorry you have to deal with this.


I think that's a BIG fear of everyone on the block. Not neccessarily me, because I plan on being in this house for a long time, but there are a few older people on the block who are looking at selling within the next few years and moving to Florida/Arizona, etc...

They don't operate any other sites.

UGH!

The hearing hasn't taken place. When I spoke to my councilwoman's office, I was told that there will be a sign outside the house before the hearing.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the owner would think that the neighbors are going to just let this happen without giving him any trouble...It would make sense to get it taken care of before hand, but I think for logistical reasons, it can't...could be that you can't apply for a zoning variation on a house that you don't own yet in our county. As much as I would love a daycare across the street, come to think if it, this immediate neighborhood has very few young families, not too many people with day care age kids......as my husband said, "what do most people get out of it, except for a big headache?" Meaning, it seems from the talk on the street is simply that this is a nuisance and won't really be beneficial to the neighborhood, so why should we be inconvienced for it? And I don't want 30+ families a day making a u-turn in my driveway!!!

Thank you for mentioning commercial lighting....this wasn't something I thought of earlier. Nor was delivery trucks.

[mom2binsd]

I can't imagine what they are thinking, I'm not sure what type of neighborhood you live in, is it all single family homes? How far are you from other businesses?

I can't really think how any type of business, much less a daycare with cars needing to come and go throughout the day (and the staff members cars needing a place to park) would operate on a street with only residential houses.

I would be shocked if this goes through so please keep us updated.

I think like others said, parking/signage/asethetics (will it look like a house or a business?).

[niccig]

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the owner would think that the neighbors are going to just let this happen without giving him any trouble.

If you don't want this to go ahead, then you and your neighbours need to mobilize. You need to get together and make your attack plan. Figure out all your concerns, talk to owner and see what they say, then you need to come up with your list of issues and how to present them to the hearing. Then you need to stack that hearing with every single neighbor showing the council that you do not agree with this.

It's been on the books for some time to extend our street to connect it to next city (we're on the border). Our neighborhood has a very active volunteer association. Every time it comes up, or option to develop land in the hills, the city chamber is filled with residents voicing their disapproval, write in campaigns etc.

If you have any lawyers in the neighborhood, get them to involved to help with wording etc.

[MontrealMum]

I can't imagine what they are thinking, I'm not sure what type of neighborhood you live in, is it all single family homes? How far are you from other businesses?

I can't really think how any type of business, much less a daycare with cars needing to come and go throughout the day (and the staff members cars needing a place to park) would operate on a street with only residential houses.


This is actually quite common here in Montreal. The exception would be daycares that are downtown or in the city's scattered business districts.

DS' daycare is in a residential neighborhood which zoned for this sort of thing. There are 2 elementary schools, a rest home/hospital and 3 churches w/in a 4 block radius in addition to the daycare. That said, while I love our facility and am very grateful for it, I wouldn't want to be living on that street.

The capacity is 80 children. Some of the students are siblings, but most aren't. At best, that's 40 parents coming and going, but I'd guess it's more like 60. It's open from 7am to 6pm. Drop off is usually 7-9ish, and pick up ranges from 4-6, but theoretically people could trickle in and out all day long. As with the entire neighborhood, most of the parking is street parking. Sure, the bulk of the cars park in front of the daycare and the schoolyard that abuts it, but at times (due to street cleaning and parking regulations) they have to park further along that side of the street or across the street in front of houses. Trucks make deliveries. I don't know if these are done on specific days, or all week long. Snow is removed by the city, as it is everywhere here in Montreal. Trash and recycle are taken care of on the regular neighborhood schedule, 1x a week, by the city, not by a special contractor. There are 2 playgrounds and the kids play outdoors. I'd imagine it can be loud.

With the winter and the narrowing of an already narrow street it is often necessary to turn around in someone's driveway. I'm not aware of too many people that park across people's driveways, but I'm sure it does happen. Although many of the staff take the bus, a handful of them drive and park on the street. Which, I have to point out, is a public street. So, while annoying, it is perfectly legal. And I say this as someone who has had a yoga studio open up around the corner...and is contending with those clients taking up much of the parking. The province has recently enacted anti-idling legislation so there are now signs up indicating that if you're parked, your motor should be turned off.

I don't know what the negotiations are between the daycare and the city, but I will say that if your neighborhood is zoned for it, there may be very little that you can do about it. That said, where I live it's required to post a notice publicly with plans for changes to dwellings, major building changes, and zoning modifications, prior to any town council meeting. I think that's pretty standard. Here, that notice goes in our village paper. If you're in a larger city it might not be published, but still it would be on record at the city clerk's office. If I were you I'd find out where that happens for your city and see if I could read up on it before attending the meeting.

[fivi2]

My neighborhood (mostly single family homes) has several day cares in it in converted houses. We attended one for 2 weeks that happens to be across the street from a friend. Traffic is definitely an issue at pick up and drop off. There are a ton of cars parked on the streets (usually not blocking driveways). This is a big day care - infant through afterschool and I know the pre-k class had 20+ kids in it. Other than that she hasn't mentioned any problems. It is quiet on the weekends and evenings (better than my neighbors who are definitely not quiet!).

[dogmom]

When I lived in Boston they opened up a preschool through K program across the street from where we lived. The owner had an open house ahead of time to give out information about the school. It was very helpful for everyone. It answered many questions people had, such as enrollment, anticipated traffic. It also brought up ones that were new to the owner and pointed out shared ones, such as people not keeping to the posted traffic speed. I think it was a very good idea of the owner. I'm sure it was stressful for her, but it pretty much meant she listened to all the fears and complaints, people felt she listened, and when problems cropped up in the future they were more likely to go to her than the authorities. I would suggest that you contact the owner about just such an open house.

[cvanbrunt]

Do you know any realtors? It would be a lot of legwork but you might see the difference between sale prices of homes on a street with a daycare and those a few blocks away. You really do need to show up as a unified front from the neighborhood if you want to fight this. In my experience, this has a big impact on the committees/commissions. Twice I've seen businesses denied permits in response to mobilized neighbors. The area might be zoned for it but it isn't a done deal. The businesses owners decided it wasn't worth the legal battle to overturn the committee. Last year, in my very civic-minded neighborhood we got major concessions from a business. A gas station/convenience store was going in at the end of the block. After meeting with the neighborhood association the owner agreed not to sell beer or cigarettes. While we were at it, we changed the zoning rules to make the area more family friendly. It is a lot of work but totally worth it in the end. Someone has to take the lead though and really keep up on all the public documents.