Difficult subject matter: Do your kids know about the Holocaust?

[Fairy]

I know this is very difficult subject-matter, and I appreciate any discussion here. DS is 7, he'll be 8 (OMG) in September. We are not highly observant Jews. But he went to Jewish daycare and dayschool and is in a Jewish summer camp. He does not do Hebrew School and is not likely to have a Bar Mitzvah (jury's still out). DH is Catholic, so we do everything full tilt. Passover and Easter are equally celebrated. Christmukkah is big. Plus he knows all the lesser known Jewish holidays, like Sukkot and Tu B'Shevat. He knows that some people don't like Jewish people (and that others don't like gay people or black people, etc.), but he doesn't know aobut the Holocaust.

I've been leery to discuss it with him and teach him about it. I learned about it when I was 8 or 9. He is very very very sensitive. He cannot take it when someone or something dies. We saw the King and I on Saturday at the middle school, and when the King dies at the end (I'd totally forgotten this), he went ape sh*t, he was so upset. That's one fictional king. Not six million real people, including his own family. Yet, I feel a pull to start carefully teaching him.

How are you broaching this subject with your children, Jewish or not, and how old were your kids when you did?

[rlu]

We're not Jewish and to my knowledge we didn't have any family that were victims of the Holocaust, so to DS it is historical rather than personal. DH and DS enjoy watching the History and Military channels and with DS showing an interest in WWII DH carefully selects the shows they watch. DS knows about the Holocaust but hasn't seen pictures or footage of the camps.

I don't think he understands the scope, just like he doesn't understand the scope of 9/11 although we did tell him about it and he saw pictures of the towers coming down last September.

DS was 7 when we first discussed the Holocaust. I am sure we will discuss it again and again as he ages and his comprehension of the events and the capacity for evil that exists in man becomes clear to him.

eta: although not about the Holocaust directly, I recently read The Cats of Krasinski Square to DS (about the Warsaw ghetto loosely based on a real event). http://www.amazon.com/Cats-Krasinski-Square-Karen-Hesse/dp/0439435404/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336422866&sr=1-1

[mom2binsd]

Dd learned about it this year (she's almost 9 at the end of 3rd grade)...not sure where she saw the info, probably the history channel when my XH had fallen asleep and didn't monitor what was on tv...so we talked about it, she is also very aware of Bin Laden and what he did on 9/11.

[HIU8]

My DS will be 8 in November. We have not talked about it with him yet. DH and I have talked about starting to explain things to him close to Yom Hashoah 2013 (so DS will be about 8 1/2). After seeing how DS is dealing with his grandfather's recent sudden death we are going very slowly. I do remember learning about the Holocaust as early as age 6 (first grade), but I was in a Jewish Day School. I know they didn't cover it in DS's Hebrew School this year.

[JustMe]

Another no. Dd is 9 (and ds is 6). They do go to Hebrew School (on Sundays ohly) and I was very surprised this was not taught yet for dd; although I actually have her in a 2nd grade classroom there which is another story.

I have the same issue in that dd is very sensitive and anxious. I am not sure how to communicate to her how many Jews were killed and why without totally freaking her out and making her fear for her life (and I am not being dramatic). I look forward to hearing other responses.

[secchick]

DD is in K and we have not discussed it, and it seems way too soon for her to learn that it is possible for evil like that to exist in the world. That said, we lived in Germany when I was in first grade and I saw the Ann Frank house and visited Dachau and learned about Hitler to no ill effects. I would discuss it if it came up or she heard something or asked, but I wouldn't brigh it up myself.

[Tondi G]

yes both of my children know about the Holocaust. They are 7 and 10. My DH is Jewish by birth but non practicing but we have been to Passover seders with family, and we light Hanukkah candles etc. They know about concentration camps and know that their great Grandfather (my grandpa) was actually an american army soldier who helped to liberate a concentration camp (and came home with my Grandma from Germany). Our families from both sides, have ties to the Holocaust.

My DS1 initially learned about the Holocaust from our next door neighbors son. He is a full year older and I guess had learned a bit about WWII and Hitler and shared info ... so we did some talking about it so he could understand more what the whole situation was about.... not just what he heard from another child.

My DH and the boys love watching the History Channel.

[lizzywednesday]

My DD is 2; I'm not talking about it with her yet, though I think that it's important she learn about it. It's one of the periods of history that I've tried to be very knowledgeable about, as it is not one I would wish to repeat.

For the record, I am not Jewish; I grew up Catholic. I don't remember it being addressed very thoroughly or satisfactorily in our history/social studies lessons.

To the point where I knew the Holocaust had happened, but I didn't grasp the real scope until high school. And even then, it was difficult to figure it out. I don't think I will ever "figure it out" in the way I want to.

It took a trip to the Holocaust Museum in DC ("Daniel's Story", which is the shorter, "children's" exhibition that takes you through the early ghettoization and transport of European Jews under the Nazis from a child's perspective) and a lead role in the stage version of I Never Saw Another Butterfly, which was inspired by survivors' stories and children's artwork that came out of the Terezienstadt concentration camp/detention center.

Many of my college friends are grandchildren of Holocaust survivors; one of the guys I took Yiddish with is related to or friends with the family whose story is told in the "David's Story" exhibition. It was amazing to meet someone associated with something I'd seen as a 16-year-old high school kid that confirmed that these people were real people and all the emotions I'd experienced in that exhibit were for real people. Who'd been fortunate enough to survive, thrive and, finally, share their story with hundreds of thousands of other people.

It's a tough concept to get across and a tougher one to figure out how to approach sensitively.

I am 34 years old and it still bothers me a great deal the brutality and inhumanity that was shown by human beings to other human beings. The last time I visited the Holocaust Museum, I followed the full exhibit. It was well worth the re-visit.

I bought a copy of the book-version of I Never Saw Another Butterfly... then. It's on my bookshelf. The poems are heartbreakingly innocent, wise and sad all at the same time. DD may find it one day, because I don't see the point in hiding it from her. I'll explain my best then.

[sophiesmom03]

I have talked with DD1 about it. First time when she was about 6. This book is beautifully written and made it easier for me to find words.

http://books.google.com/books/about/One_Candle.html?id=XODO_XWIHOYC

I don't think that 6 million is a number that a child can really comprehend; I just tried to focus on an awareness.

[mariza]

This came up for us recently as well.My 5 yo DS had a playdate with a girl who began talking about the bombs she saw in a Hiroshima documentary. DS didn't ask too many questions fortunately. I am not against it when it is right for your family, I just don't think my 5 & 7 yo are ready for it. On the other hand I don't remember when I first learned, it's been part of my family history as long as I can remember. My Grandmother always told me stories of how the Nazi's invaded her village in Poland. Her boyfriend joined the uprising and was captured. She broke him out of jail and when caught they shot her BF on the spot and sent her to a German work camp. She was then transferred to a concentration camp where by some miracle, a soldier took pity on her and allowed her to escape. She ran for her life and found Allied troops and told them the location of the camp.
IMO, my grandmother is a hero and I want to share her story with my kids but maybe not until they are about 3rd grade. When that time comes I will share my photos that I took when I visited the Polish Auschwitz camp. They are heartbreaking and I just don't think my kids can process that kind of info yet.

[daisymommy]

My 9 year old DS is like your son. Very emotional, cannot handle devastating things like this. No way is he, or my 5 year old DD ready to hear about something so horribly awful, so sickening that people did to one another.

He only this year learned about slavery, and even then, he had a hard time handling it. I think it will be several more years till he and DD are emotionally mature enough to hear about the Holocaust.

[crl]

I haven't even thought about broaching this with ds, who will be nine this summer. He has learned about Martin Luther King Jr, which has some elements of similarity--racism and death. But the scale of the holocaust. I don't know when I would feel like it is appropriate to bring it up.

Catherine

[elektra]

This came up for us recently as well.My 5 yo DS had a playdate with a girl who began talking about the bombs she saw in a Hiroshima documentary. DS didn't ask too many questions fortunately. I am not against it when it is right for your family, I just don't think my 5 & 7 yo are ready for it. On the other hand I don't remember when I first learned, it's been part of my family history as long as I can remember. My Grandmother always told me stories of how the Nazi's invaded her village in Poland. Her boyfriend joined the uprising and was captured. She broke him out of jail and when caught they shot her BF on the spot and sent her to a German work camp. She was then transferred to a concentration camp where by some miracle, a soldier took pity on her and allowed her to escape. She ran for her life and found Allied troops and told them the location of the camp.
IMO, my grandmother is a hero and I want to share her story with my kids but maybe not until they are about 3rd grade. When that time comes I will share my photos that I took when I visited the Polish Auschwitz camp. They are heartbreaking and I just don't think my kids can process that kind of info yet.

What an incredible story.
I haven't responded because I think the answer of when to discuss with your kids may have a big dependency on whether or not you are Jewish. I can see that I might want to bring it up sooner if I, my kids or any close family member was Jewish. But since I am not Jewish, I just really can't say what the best age is. But I could not read this above post and not comment!

[swissair81]

I'm Orthodox, and we have not started discussing the Holocaust as a subject with DD1 (9). I did have relatives who were in concentration camps, but DD1 didn't know them, so we don't have to broach that now. I might start around Bas Mitzvah age. She will start learning Jewish history as a subject in 7th grade, and our history is not exactly full of happy go lucky events. By the time she is in 12th grade, she will have an actual class in history of the holocaust. She's definitely going to learn about it, but I may just wait for a little bit.

ETA- My high school graduation trip was to Washington D.C. One of our stops was to the Holocaust Museum there. We were high school graduates who had learned about the Holocaust in detail, including videos, and even so- I was sure that several of my friends were going to faint. This is really intense stuff. If you aren't entirely sure your DS is ready for it, then wait.

[maestramommy]

I am not any of your qualifiers, but when I was around 10 a TV movie about the Holocaust came out. I saw parts of it, didn't really understand much, but the grim sense of fear gripped me for days. In 8th grade I read the Diary of Anne Frank, and my history teacher talked about it, recommended a book called Treblinka, about the death camp of that name. I didn't read this book until I was in college, but I did read another book about a young girl and her experience in Auschwitz, then later different camps in 8th grade. It was really rather gruesome and at this point I can't imagine talking to my kids about such things until they are at least that age. I don't even know when I will be able to explain 9/11 to Dora.

As another data point, the school where I used to work was taking their 8th graders to DC at one point, and they would visit the Museum of Tolerance. It had a huge impact on the students. I can't imagine they would be ready for it before that year.

[khalloc]

My family and I are not Jewish. I was raised Catholic. Since we arent Jewish, I dont know that I would bring up the Holocost with my kids unless they asked. I dont remember when I learned about it. But I assume it was probably in History class sometime in grade school. I find the Holocost horrifying, I dont think I'd want my kids worrying about it at a young age. I can see if you are Jewish wanting to educate your kids about it more. But I still think I'd wait until they brought it up when they learn about it at school.

[cilantromapuche]

My grandparents were Holocaust survivors, so yes, we have always talked aboutit. From age 3, maybe, but I would not bring it up if my DC were so sensitive. We are not Jewish (my mother converted to a different faith as a teenager) but we also talk about genocide.
My reasoning is that we are aware of the world around us. My kids read the NYT and pick an article to discuss.

[Melaine]

Not yet, and I don't look forward to sharing it either. We haven't discussed 9-11 either. I don't think they are ready.

[dogmom]

It's not the Holocaust, but the whole it would have been illegal for my DH's Mother to marry his Father in many states because she is African American has come up. Along with the whole concept of owning another human being. We have used certain opportunities, like when he came home with all this Martin Luther King stuff for the holiday in January in first grade, but no real idea what it meant. Teachers tend to dance around the overly concrete bad stuff. I feel like I try to give age appropriate stuff in stages. Mostly we use the opportunities that come up to start a conversation.

One of the things I would think you have to ask yourself is how do you want to frame the discussion. Is the Holocaust a uniquely Jewish event or part of a bigger concept, or something in between. I personally don't think any one approach has moral superiority, I think you have to figure out what it means for your family and start from there.

Yes, my 9 yo son knows the basics of the Holocaust, just like he knows about slavery and that we used the atomic bomb. It's rather nerdy, but by husband has used the game Civilization to introduce a lot of the concepts to my DS. He is trying to connect my son's actions and motivations to other people's and their results.

[TwinFoxes]

I don't have any BTDT, but I do have a friend who distinctly remembers being mortified in about 4th-5th grade asking "who's Hitler" in the middle of a conversation other kids were having, and all the other kids burst into laughter, and proceeded to give her a crash course. She's around 40 now, so it's a pretty vivid memory (she's told me about it more than once). She says she just wished her parents had told her about the Holocaust/Hitler (she's not Jewish BTW, but went to school in an area with a large Jewish population). I don't know where I'm going with this, other than I think it's better for you to say something at your own pace, than to have it suddenly sprung on him by kids. It's bound to come up. I think that's true about most things. I wonder if the abstract of millions might in a way be easier than the "reality" of one person on screen. It's like the Holocaust is almost too big to grasp in a way.

So hard. I don't look forward to these sorts of conversations...

[brittone2]

He is aware in the most general sense, but has no idea on specifics. He's 8.

We HS, and do a chronological study of history, using Story of the World and other resources. We are currently in the Middle Ages, so we won't get to modern history for quite some time.

DS1 is rather sensitive, so I am not ready to go into great detail. He knows a bit about WW2, the atomic bomb, and we've discussed religious persecution of various groups more broadly. But the specifics of the Holocaust? Not yet.

I read the Diary of Anne Frank on my own in 4th grade, and I remember it really being a tremendously powerful experience.

[fedoragirl]

In case you don't want to broach it, the Holocaust is taught in middle school in many states. I don't know how thoroughly it is taught but I definitely taught it very, very thoroughly in my English class in conjunction with the Holocaust literature. My students have always told me that this was one unit they have never forgotten since 8th grade. Hopefully, your DC will get the same exposure and hopefully, it will be a memorable one.

[sarahsthreads]

I have a rather sensitive DD1, so I have not broached this sort of difficult subject yet. We are not Jewish, but that doesn't change the fact that someday my children do need to know about the Holocaust.

DD1 did surprise me with an interest in the Titanic, after a Scholastic News article they read in school. (I realize these are nowhere near on the same scale, but bear with me.) Interestingly, although she is aware that people died when the Titanic sank, she almost approached it from an engineering perspective - "Mom, do you think if they'd made it so 6 of the watertight chambers could fill instead of only 2, the boat wouldn't have sunk before rescuers could come?" Whereas I think about the people who died, the families who were torn apart or completely ceased to exist. I expected she'd think of it from the same perspective, but...she doesn't.

I do think she could probably handle more than I think she could, but I am still haunted by learning about the Holocaust, and I am not ready for her to learn about it. I think if we had family ties to the Holocaust it might change how & when I broached the subject, but for now I'm waiting until the school introduces difficult subjects, then expanding on it and answering questions outside of school as she asks them.

Sarah

[swissair81]

DD1 did surprise me with an interest in the Titanic, after a Scholastic News article they read in school. (I realize these are nowhere near on the same scale, but bear with me.) Interestingly, although she is aware that people died when the Titanic sank, she almost approached it from an engineering perspective - "Mom, do you think if they'd made it so 6 of the watertight chambers could fill instead of only 2, the boat wouldn't have sunk before rescuers could come?" Whereas I think about the people who died, the families who were torn apart or completely ceased to exist. I expected she'd think of it from the same perspective, but...she doesn't.

I shudder to think how I would have to answer a similar question about the holocaust. How would you answer, "Mom, do you think if people didn't hate other people for no reason, millions of people would have been able to die of (more) natural causes?" That's heavy stuff. If you take into account all the Jews, Catholics, Romany (Gypsies), people who were harboring fugitives, random bystanders, civilians, soldiers, etc. The number of people who died because some people couldn't help but believe that only people like them were valuable is just mind boggling.

[sarahsthreads]

I shudder to think how I would have to answer a similar question about the holocaust. How would you answer, "Mom, do you think if people didn't hate other people for no reason, millions of people would have been able to die of (more) natural causes?" That's heavy stuff. If you take into account all the Jews, Catholics, Romany (Gypsies), people who were harboring fugitives, random bystanders, civilians, soldiers, etc. The number of people who died because some people couldn't help but believe that only people like them were valuable is just mind boggling.

Oh, I agree. And it's why I'm pretty much happy to wait until the school introduces the subject. I'm just not ready to - and don't know if I'll ever be able to - adequately answer a question like that!

[Fairy]

Thank you for all the responses, I'm reading all of them. The fact that we are Jewish makes this subject more important for me to teach DS sooner rather than later. And on re-reading that sentence, I do *not* think that means non-Jews don't need to know as soon. I mean because it's part of my family's recent history. I don't want an experience like a PP mentioned "Who's Hitler?" DS is so far ahead of so many kids in many ways, but in almost as many ways he's so much more naive. He's not in sports, he doesn't have alot of playdates. He is, however, very social and outgoing and involved in other things with his peers. He's going to a Jewish camp. And he's inquisitive and already asking certain things. Not pointedly about this, but I can jump six steps ahead and know where it's going.

I remembrer learning about it and not being devastated or traumatized, but being quite shocked. So, it wasn't a trauma, but it was more of an innocence shattered kind of thing. Like learning about Santa, for lack of a better example. If that were all it would be for him, I think I could age-appropriately get the subject started soon. But his sensitivity is profound. And slavery is a good example of what makes me leery, we were talking about a girl at school he likes that I've never met, apparently she's black, which I only just recently learned, and I guess someone called her a name. It was not a racial name, it was like "dummy" or something, but he asked me if it might have been because her skin is brown. I said, well I don't know why the namecaller didn't like her, etc. etc., but it kind of led to slavery as a very surface kind of thing, and he just started to cry. He knew that some people were taken from Africa and forced to be slaves but that we don't do that in America anymore -- this from a long time ago -- but he hung on to it, and cut to that covnersation, and he just couldn't process well.

So, all that to say, i want to help him understand this so that "who's Hitler" doesn't happen, and just because I think it's important to know about it, it's a huge part of my family's identity. But I don't think he's ready for much, so I'm torn on how to do it right.

[Nechums]

My friend's 6 year old learned about it in school, but it was just briefly touched upon. The girl commented to my friend and said something like "that happened so long ago, so I don't care about it". That prompted a whole conversation which basically left my friend's daughter with her mouth wide open. I don't think my friend was prepared to discuss it with her at that point, but felt she needed to once her daughter made that comment.

[mariza]

What an incredible story.
I haven't responded because I think the answer of when to discuss with your kids may have a big dependency on whether or not you are Jewish. I can see that I might want to bring it up sooner if I, my kids or any close family member was Jewish. But since I am not Jewish, I just really can't say what the best age is. But I could not read this above post and not comment!

Thanks Elektra, I am very proud of my Grandmothers story but it's different for everyone. My Grandmother (a Polish Catholic BTW) was very open with her story unlike my Grandfather who not only did not like to talk about it, he did not allow her to talk about it in his presence (I got the sense that my GM never stopped mourning her BF and my GF was jealous) my paternal grandparents never discussed it either. Even to this day when I ask my paternal GM our family history she is very suspicious about why I want to know. I'm not Jewish but I mourn just the same for all people that experienced the horrors of WWII. I hope to I find a way to educate my children in a manner that honors all the lives that were lost as well as my own family history. As I said before, for my children I don't see this happening anytime soon but mine might be too immature to handle the gravity of it all where others may have been exposed at a young age. This is how I learned, it was just always part of who my grandmother was. She was my favorite person ever and I lost her 3 years ago, as I type this I can see that my heartbreak over her death is also influencing my decision to hold off on talking to my children about this period in history. I'm crying just typing this, I don't think I can talk to them without tears. Not yet anyway.

[sntm]

I cant imagine how it would be to have a personal connection to it, but we've mentioned it to DS before in a very general sense. He knows that a man named Hitler was responsible for killing a lot of people, mostly Jewish people, out of prejudice. That's about it, though.

[mommylamb]

I'm Jewish and my paternal grandparents are Holocaust survivors. My father was actually born in a displaced persons camp in Germany in 1948. My grandmother was German and my grandfather was Polish, but spent much of the war in a slave camp in Siberia after he escaped Poland. So the Holocaust has loomed large in my life. I really don't remember when I learned about it. I think I always knew about it. My grandparents' friends were all also survivors and I spent a lot of time with them as a young child.

We have not talked to DS1 about it yet. He'll be 5 in June. But, I do have The Terrible Things book http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Things-Allegory-Holocaust-Classic/dp/0827603258/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336438177&sr=8-1 which I think is a really good introduction to the Holocaust for younger children. At some point I'll read it to DS1 and we'll talk about how important it is to stand up for other people as a starting point.

[dcmom2b3]

Although we're not Jewish, her father's family was affected by WWII in that they lived in (and in some instances fled from) occupied France, and suffered losses as a result. On my side, my dad helped liberate Buchenwald, and saw things that profoundly affected him, even 50 years later. And, despite three tries, I've never been able to make it through the Holocaust Museum, so taking her there prolly isn't the best way to spark any kind of dialog that doesn't end with Mommy rushing out teary-eyed halfway through.

She's learned bout slavery this year, both at school and at home while working on the family tree. She's not been overtly traumatized, but then she's not sensitive in the keenly empathetic way that your DS is. I think that the Holocaust and WW II will be discussed within the next year or so, if only as a way of broadening the message from our discussions about slavery, and to start making the point that good people should work to end injustice, even when it's not directed towards them.

To that end, last year I found a wonderful children's book: The Grand Mosque of Paris: a Story of how Muslims Rescued Jews during WWII. It's beautifully illustrated, and, while the authors admit that the story is apochryphal, it is a beautiful tale of how Muslims in the Grand Mosque in occupied Paris served as an "Undergound Railroad" sort of way station for fleeing Jews, downed Allied airmen, and Resistance forces. It doesn't focus on the camps, and I kinda like that as an entree to that part of history. I haven't read it to the Bunny yet, it's more appropriate for her in the next year or so, but I think its going to be a great way to open the topic for discussion between us.

[dogmom]

DD1 did surprise me with an interest in the Titanic, after a Scholastic News article they read in school. (I realize these are nowhere near on the same scale, but bear with me.) Interestingly, although she is aware that people died when the Titanic sank, she almost approached it from an engineering perspective - "Mom, do you think if they'd made it so 6 of the watertight chambers could fill instead of only 2, the boat wouldn't have sunk before rescuers could come?" Whereas I think about the people who died, the families who were torn apart or completely ceased to exist. I expected she'd think of it from the same perspective, but...she doesn't.


I was at the Scholastic Book Fair at my school and they had a Titanic ABC book. Seriously? Yes "I" was for Iceberg. "S", however, was not for the screams of the dying in the icy water. But then I never got why God's wrath at destroying humanity in a flood is children's fodder and nursery decorations because it has two of every animal.

[dogmom]

You might be interested in these:

http://www.holocaust-trc.org/chldbook.htm

http://www.eve-tal.com/homework/holocaust_bibliography.html

There is also the graphic novel Maus.

[lizzywednesday]

....
ETA- My high school graduation trip was to Washington D.C. One of our stops was to the Holocaust Museum there. We were high school graduates who had learned about the Holocaust in detail, including videos, and even so- I was sure that several of my friends were going to faint. This is really intense stuff. If you aren't entirely sure your DS is ready for it, then wait.

I totally agree.

I went as a 16 year old student and again as an adult.

And, honestly, I had the same types of trouble with it emotionally as an adult that I did as a teenager.

It's OK to wait, but I think it also should be said that it's hard to say whether or not anyone would ever be "ready" to learn about it. "Ready" just makes it easier, but this isn't like potty training or learning to put your face in the water when you swim.

This is learning about real inhumanity towards human beings ... I don't know that there's a "ready" or "appropriate" age for it, but I do feel that it is necessary.

[Fairy]

I do think she could probably handle more than I think she could ...

This is also a huge struggle for me. Am I visiting some of my own neuroses upon my child, or am I observing what I really think I'm observing? Example, I hate yellow. For a specific reason, but i don't have yellow in my home, and DS has nearly no yellow. That's MY baggage. How much of what I think he can't handle can he truly not handle? Sometimes we have to go thru bad things and come out on the other side so that we can just go on. I know he has to know about this, and I'm terribly drawn to start telling him, but I'm just terrified at the constitution of his sensitivity at age 7 (or 8).


But, I do have The Terrible Things book http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Things-Allegory-Holocaust-Classic/dp/0827603258/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336438177&sr=8-1 which I think is a really good introduction to the Holocaust for younger children.

I'm considering this one for later down the road. All book recommendations are very very helpful.


And, despite three tries, I've never been able to make it through the Holocaust Museum, so taking her there prolly isn't the best way to spark any kind of dialog that doesn't end with Mommy rushing out teary-eyed halfway through.

The Grand Mosque of Paris: a Story of how Muslims Rescued Jews during WWII.

I've been to the Holocaust Museum, and it is ... not an easy place to be. It's not supposed to be, and I couldn't go to certain exhibits. There is a boxcar, for instance. A real one. It takes the wind out of you. You leave with a weird mix of intense depression and intense hope. The place is very effective, and it does not sugar coat anything. We keep trying to go to DC, and it keeps not happening <grumble, grumble>, and we're truly on the fence if we go here again (this time with DS). I just can't imagine he'd get thru it. I get anxiety just thinking about it. I kind of feel like a bad Jew for feeling this kind of anxiety about this very important thing that DS has to know about and should see but I just get so close to the edge and turn back around. I wonder if my intense fear of making this decision to include the museum or not is secretly sabotaging my efforts to go to DC at all ...

That book looks amazing. I will preview it the very next time I'm at BN if it's there. This might be the way.


You might be interested in these:

http://www.holocaust-trc.org/chldbook.htm

http://www.eve-tal.com/homework/holocaust_bibliography.html

There is also the graphic novel Maus.

Thank you for the links, very helpful! I'll be perusing these quite a bit.

Also, Mariza, your grandmother's story (it won't quote, I quoted too many so it dropped the first ones!) is amazing. WWII is full of these, and it's just unbelievably amazing. I'm not surprised that there was a gag order on this family story, there's alot of that, even amongst themselves that went thru it. If there was ever a generation that needed PTSD therapy that never got it, this was it. I read that post three times. Thank you for sharing it.

You all are so helpful, thank you!
-- Fairy

[lizzywednesday]

...
There is also the graphic novel Maus.

I'm kind of wiffly-waffly about Maus being OK for a sensitive 8 y/o.

On the one hand, it's a graphic novel with mice as the main characters, not humans.

On the other hand ... it's a graphic novel that explores the Holocaust from one family's perspective, including the horrors they saw, but it just so happens to use mice and not humans.

It's a great tool, but I don't know that I'd use it for that young a kid. 10 or 11 maybe, 13 for sure, but I don't think I'd let an 8 y/o near it.

That said, maybe I should read the whole thing - I've only read bits & pieces. It's pretty dense reading, IMO, when you compare it to some other books.

[AngB]

It's OK to wait, but I think it also should be said that it's hard to say whether or not anyone would ever be "ready" to learn about it. "Ready" just makes it easier, but this isn't like potty training or learning to put your face in the water when you swim.

This is learning about real inhumanity towards human beings ... I don't know that there's a "ready" or "appropriate" age for it, but I do feel that it is necessary.

I agree with this thought, especially. I am sure the kids who were *in* the Holocaust weren't "ready" for it either. I don't think it's a big deal to wait, though.

I would just think about how you want to learn about it and who you want to learn about it from. He will most certainly start learning about it in middle school at the latest, but there's always the chance they could turn on the history channel, or talk to a friend, etc. If you want him to learn about it first from you, I would think about talking about it sooner than later, the longer you wait, the more likely he is to learn about it somewhere else first.

[gatorsmom]

This is an interesting question for me because I was recently trying to remember the nameof a fictional book I read in 3rd grade about 2 Jewish girls who were in Bergen Belsen. I remember it being a sad book but not horrifying. It seemed to be at the time, a good way to learn about that sad period of time without being left with torturing nightmares about what went on there. Since Gator is now nearly 9yo, I thought it might be a book I could get for him.

Afaik, his school has not taught anything about that period of time yet. And I have not yet talked about the Holocaust with them.

ETA: Since my boys and DH are interested in wars in a general sense, I have shared some stories about soldiers I knew while living in France as an au pair. I lived in Alsace which was annexed early in the war by Germany because most Alsatians speak a dialect very similar to German. My french boyfriends' grandfather was forced to fight as a Nazi against his fellow french soldiers which was difficult for him since he was trained as a French soldier in the years leading up to the war. He still had his Nazi party card and other war paraphernalia which he showed me. I was honored that he showed me and my boyfriend was astonished that his grandfather dug them out because it was not something he usually talked about. The Nazi occupation was a difficult subject for their family. I visited Natzweiler-Struthof while I lived in Alsace. It was not a death camp, more of a labor camp. It was a very sobering experience.

[gatorsmom]

[QUOTE=dogmom;3502253. But then I never got why God's wrath at destroying humanity in a flood is children's fodder and nursery decorations because it has two of every animal.[/QUOTE]

Not to go off on a tangent but :yeahthat:!!!! How about the Pied Piper which was a story about a true event where the children of an entire village were stolen and led into slavery somewhere (cant remember the details of the story)! So many nursery rhymes and childrens' tales are aweful! Humpty dumpty, Peter Peter pumpkin eater, Three blind mice, etc. Seriously, why do we continue to teach these to our kids?

[Fairy]

Actually, most nursery rhymes and fairy tales are god-awful in their natural and original form. They've been sugar coated and Disney'd to the hilt, so we love them. But I've had a hard time finding an original with a happy ending.

[lizzywednesday]

Not to go off on a tangent but :yeahthat:!!!! How about the Pied Piper which was a story about a true event where the children of an entire village were stolen and led into slavery somewhere (cant remember the details of the story)! So many nursery rhymes and childrens' tales are aweful! Humpty dumpty, Peter Peter pumpkin eater, Three blind mice, etc. Seriously, why do we continue to teach these to our kids?

I took a college course on folk tales that included fairy tales, ballads and folklore and we did explore that question quite a bit. (And, you might be surprised to note, it's not terribly off-tangent as the Grimms' fairy tales, among other German folk tales including the 'Ring Cycle' operas by Wagner, were co-opted by the Nazis in their efforts towards nationalism.)

The take-aways I had from that was folktales can do the following:
(1) reinforce the status quo by modeling desired behavior (i.e. - "good" girls, like Cinderella, who follow their parents' guidance will be rewarded)
(2) allow fears to be put to rest - it's just a story, there's no wolf in the woods
(3) depict our innermost fears about society - the "other," whether witch or dragon or whatever, is to be feared & persecuted, etc.

Maybe I missed the point, but many of our hero themes recur from mythology through fairy tales into the modern era, whether in comics or novels, and they're a part of our cultural literacy.

Whether or not they're pleasant is another issue and that's really a tangent for another day/thread.

[kep]

I can't imagine deciding when and how to teach my children about the Holocaust would really change depending on rather or not we were Jewish. It is a hugely important part of our history, for all of humanity. I really think the major deciding factor would probably be the maturity of the child in question, and the readiness of them to hear and understand. And I know that it has been pointed out, but while of course the majority of people affected by the Holocaust were Jews, there were many, many other groups affected as well. We are Roman Catholic, and had family overseas who were also affected by the Nazi's. I don't think any of our own relatives were actually in any of the concentration camps, but it is a part of our family history as well.

I am big on trying to break things down and presenting them in ways that are very age appropriate. My nine year old knows all about 9/11, and we are very open about things like that. We live outside of DC, and the affects of it are still very prevalent out here. It would have been hard not to have told him, especially with him being in school. The 10th anniversary of 9/11 actually gave us a good opportunity to explain things further, as there was more discussion of it at school and general talk about it in the community. DS obviously does not grasp the enormity of it, but as he gets older and more mature, he understands more and more of it.

Living near DC, DH and I have been to the Holocaust Museum, but the kids have not. The children's section of it is excellent though, and in another year or two we might take him to see it. But, I would do a lot of prep-work and reading with him beforehand. We would defiantly discuss things at length before we went.

I guess the whole point to this rambling post is that while of course the Holocaust is a huge, huge part of the Jewish faith, I think that all children need to know about it. If we forget the past we are destined to repeat it. I also think that if your kids are in a Jewish school where they are going to be talking about it at a certain grade point, I would want to talk with my kids about it beforehand if possible.

[swissair81]

All children do need to know about it, but there are levels. There's an entire gamut of information from talking about it or using allegorical books to going to a concentration camp and watching where the Nazis gassed and burned a good portion of Europe (I don't recommend it unless you really think you can handle it though. It's heavy stuff.). I've done all of the above. I've been to several Holocaust museums- stood in boxcars and looked at piles of confiscated items. I've been to Theresienstadt and stood next to gas showers, ovens, and mass graves. I've learned about it in school. You have to know what your child can handle, and go with that.

[maestramommy]

There's a wonderful movie called, "Paperclips" about one school in TN who learned about the Holocaust. I think they were 6th graders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_Clips_Project

Includes testimony by survivors. It was very moving. No graphic images. But still more appropriate for slightly older children, since there is a lot of talking about deep subject matter.

[Fairy]

There's a wonderful movie called, "Paperclips" about one school in TN who learned about the Holocaust. I think they were 6th graders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_Clips_Project

Includes testimony by survivors. It was very moving. No graphic images. But still more appropriate for slightly older children, since there is a lot of talking about deep subject matter.

I do remember hearing about this! Must go seek this out.

[lizzywednesday]

All children do need to know about it, but there are levels. There's an entire gamut of information from talking about it or using allegorical books to going to a concentration camp and watching where the Nazis gassed and burned a good portion of Europe (I don't recommend it unless you really think you can handle it though. It's heavy stuff.). I've done all of the above. I've been to several Holocaust museums- stood in boxcars and looked at piles of confiscated items. I've been to Theresienstadt and stood next to gas showers, ovens, and mass graves. I've learned about it in school. You have to know what your child can handle, and go with that.

I agree with the bolded part especially. I am an adult and if, say, the camp-liberation episode of 'Band of Brothers' is on TV and it takes me off guard, I get very upset for the rest of the day. The scene in the book is sad enough sometimes.

FWIW, I still remember the SMELL of the boxcar at the Museum in DC and it's 10 years later. And the shoes - there was a poem in Yiddish & English over hundreds of shoes. If I recall correctly, you could transliterate the title as "Der Shoen" (someone who speaks/knows Yiddish better than I do may correct me if I am wrong, as I am likely to be) ... I think I am one of a handful of gentiles who could read the Yiddish. (Albeit haltingly because I've forgotten quite a lot more than I remember, but I still recognize the letters.)


There's a wonderful movie called, "Paperclips" about one school in TN who learned about the Holocaust. I think they were 6th graders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_Clips_Project

Includes testimony by survivors. It was very moving. No graphic images. But still more appropriate for slightly older children, since there is a lot of talking about deep subject matter.

I caught this on TV once and it is wonderful. I was in tears, but it was really well done. The class did the project to get a handle on how huge a number 6 million actually is ... and it is impressive.

It's worth checking into, Fairy, and may not be for your DS yet but it might be a good resource for him in a year or two.

[mikeys_mom]

This is a topic that is very close to my heart. My maternal grandparents are survivors and I grew up always knowing about the holocaust and their stories. I never felt scarred by it, just that it is a very sad part of my history. In particular my grandmother, who is now 86, and may she live to 120, has been very vocal about educating people about her story and making sure future generations never forget.

My grandfather was on a train to a concentration camp. He and a friend jumped off and joined the partisans. When he told us his story, he made it seem like an adventure - they were living in the forest, had to stay away from the Germans and make sure the dogs didn't pick up their scents. They would jump in lakes/rivers/streams to lose the dogs whenever they could. It was only after he passed away, when I was in my 20's, did I find out what it really meant to be a partisan.

My grandmother on the other hand would always tell us full details of her story of survival. All my friends growing up knew her story as well. She was a teenager when she was sent to Auschwitz. We heard about the living conditions in the barracks and the "food" they were given. She is an artist and would make sketches for the guards to get extra food. After a month in Auschwitz she got to go work in a munitions factory, which is where she was when she was liberated by the Russians. She reports that they would sabotage the munitions and put things together improperly. She lost her parents and lots of family in the war but her and her 3 siblings managed to survive. She eventually met my grandfather, got married and left Hungary a few years after the war. In order to leave the country they had to renounce all rights to their property. She always says that her 2 children, 4 grandchildren and 11 great-grandchildren (and counting...) are proof that Hitler failed.

She has been a huge advocate for holocaust education and has told her story countless times. She is particularly proud of her presentations at non-Jewish highschools and colleges because she meets students who really have never heard about the holocaust, let alone met a survivor. The Shoah Foundation (Steven Spielberg's project) came to record her story and she spoke to them for 6 hours!!! The woman interviewing her told my mother that my grandmother is a pretty amazing woman. She went as a chaperone on the March of the Living (a trip that takes Jewish high school students back to Poland) and told her story there as well. Her main message is always "Never forget".

So, with my grandmother's advocacy constantly on my mind, there was no question to me that I would tell my kids about it. They know that Granny was in the war and that she was taken to the prison camps, then worked as a slave in a gun factory. I always try to focus on her survival and what we can do to make sure these types of things don't happen again to Jews or any other race, religion or group.

Yes, DS has asked me - Why did this happen? This is much harder to answer than telling him that his great-grandmother lived in terrible, unhumane conditions. I tell him that there are bad people in this world who hate others because they are different. We then talk about what he can do to make sure kids today don't hate each other so that this type of event doesn't happen again. Like PP's have said, I think kids can handle more than we give them credit for if it is presented in an age-appropriate manner. My kids are in a Jewish day school so they learn about it a bit on Yom Hashoah (holocaust remembrance day) but it is very basic and they really don't seem scarred by it.

I was telling DH recently that it's scary how soon there won't be any living survivors and the holocaust will be something that happened a long time ago to our children and grandchildren. For me, it's always been very personal because of my grandparents. In contrast, events like the Spanish Inquisition and Pogroms, while terrible events in Jewish history, do not feel as personal to me. It's hard to explain. Not sure if it makes sense. Growing up, holocaust stories were such a big part of my life, so it seems strange that my kids won't have that.

[newnana]

I don't know where to begin on this one.

My mother is Jewish. DH and I don't practice any religion. From a cultural perspective, DD thinks of herself as Jewish because of the bloodline.

I grew up with a family of survivors. I distinctly remember being very young and asking my great aunt when I would get my numbers so that I would match the rest of the family. I clearly did not understand. Thankfully she was the one that I asked as she wore them like she did her wrinkles and scars, just another part of her and open for discussion. Other family members would not have taken my inquiry in such stride. None of that part of my family is left for DD to be exposed to.

DH's grandparents here in the States were Nazi supporters. Raising money and having meetings to send to the Fatherland and the cause. And they knew what they were supporting. I have no delusions that it was blind national pride. One of his grandparents is still alive and lives in our same town, and opinions have not changed with greater exposure to the atrocities or information regarding what occured. If anything, it has solidified in their opinion that they did the right thing.

I don't know where to begin. We have discussed that there is a lot of unjust hate in the world and that ignorance causes people to hate and do terrible things. Just not on this subject. I feel a bit paralyzed about it and don't know what the right thing is to do. So I haven't. Definitely not my best mothering topic. Give me a birthday party to plan any day. Or a sex talk. Or anything. Everything else is easy in comparison. Just not this. Especially because my DD is extremely sensitive, too. Kiddo has never made it through a Disney movie because they upset her too much. How do you start to tell that kid that her own great grandparents (that she knows and loves because we throw away the hate mail and have stopped seeing them) would have had her tortured and killed along with her mom and a ton of other people she loves just becuase of the blood in her veins?

[swissair81]

I agree with the bolded part especially. I am an adult and if, say, the camp-liberation episode of 'Band of Brothers' is on TV and it takes me off guard, I get very upset for the rest of the day. The scene in the book is sad enough sometimes.

FWIW, I still remember the SMELL of the boxcar at the Museum in DC and it's 10 years later. And the shoes - there was a poem in Yiddish & English over hundreds of shoes. If I recall correctly, you could transliterate the title as "Der Shoen" (someone who speaks/knows Yiddish better than I do may correct me if I am wrong, as I am likely to be) ... I think I am one of a handful of gentiles who could read the Yiddish. (Albeit haltingly because I've forgotten quite a lot more than I remember, but I still recognize the letters.)


I'm pretty sure that shoes in Yiddish is Sheech (ch pronounced the Hebrew/Yiddish way). The word Schon means beautiful or pretty- so I'm sure that's not it.

[mikeys_mom]

FWIW, I still remember the SMELL of the boxcar at the Museum in DC and it's 10 years later.

When I was 16 years old I went on the March of the Living (a 2 week trip to Poland and then Israel for Jewish high school students). To this day, I still remember the burning smell of the camps that we visited and the smell inside the gas chambers.

[lizzywednesday]

I'm pretty sure that shoes in Yiddish is Sheech (ch pronounced the Hebrew/Yiddish way). The word Schon means beautiful or pretty- so I'm sure that's not it.

That's why I thought I was wrong as "beautiful/pretty" is a similar word in German, which I know a little better from years as a chorister; thank you for the correction.

[swissair81]

That's why I thought I was wrong as "beautiful/pretty" is a similar word in German, which I know a little better from years as a chorister; thank you for the correction.

My DH is OOT now, but he speaks Yiddish and another 2 dialects of German as native languages (Hoch Deutsch and Schweizer Deutsch). He's a pretty good teacher, so I'm fairly sure that I'm right :)

[niccig]

How do you start to tell that kid that her own great grandparents (that she knows and loves because we throw away the hate mail and have stopped seeing them) would have had her tortured and killed along with her mom and a ton of other people she loves just becuase of the blood in her veins?

I have no idea. I think you keep your DH's grandparents beliefs out of the conversation until she is much older. At some point she'll need to know, particularly if you think she'll over hear it from someone else.

[lmwbasye]

Not yet but just because it hasn't come up. They're still pretty little. They'll learn about it one day. When it does come up, we'll discuss it.

That being said, DH has been in Iraq for most of their lives so they could tell you A LOT about that country and it's former leader.

My point is...we don't hide the hard truths because they need to know about the past but I'm okay with waiting until it comes up or it is actively taught to them in their history curriculum.

[swissair81]

How do you start to tell that kid that her own great grandparents (that she knows and loves because we throw away the hate mail and have stopped seeing them) would have had her tortured and killed along with her mom and a ton of other people she loves just becuase of the blood in her veins?

That is very hard. I wouldn't even know how to start approaching that. Ouch.

[Kindra178]

I'm kind of wiffly-waffly about Maus being OK for a sensitive 8 y/o.

On the one hand, it's a graphic novel with mice as the main characters, not humans.

On the other hand ... it's a graphic novel that explores the Holocaust from one family's perspective, including the horrors they saw, but it just so happens to use mice and not humans.

It's a great tool, but I don't know that I'd use it for that young a kid. 10 or 11 maybe, 13 for sure, but I don't think I'd let an 8 y/o near it.

That said, maybe I should read the whole thing - I've only read bits & pieces. It's pretty dense reading, IMO, when you compare it to some other books.

I read Maus in college, as assigned reading in a German 1930-1945 history class. Even though it's in a cartoon format, I don't think it's appropriate for tweens.

Something that you all should keep in mind. Studies strongly support that kids who learn about the struggles of their near ancestors are more resilient in times of hardship, as they realize that people before them were presented with and dealt with extremely hard challenges. Although the Holocaust isn't a little bit of money hardship of your grandma when she was little, I think it's important to share such stories.

[AngB]

Not to go off on a tangent but :yeahthat:!!!! How about the Pied Piper which was a story about a true event where the children of an entire village were stolen and led into slavery somewhere (cant remember the details of the story)! So many nursery rhymes and childrens' tales are aweful! Humpty dumpty, Peter Peter pumpkin eater, Three blind mice, etc. Seriously, why do we continue to teach these to our kids?

Ring around the rosie is about the Bubonic Plague aka "black death". Ick. I've never thought of that rhyme the same.

[maestramommy]

What's timely about this thread is today I was listening to 4 different interviews with Maurice Sendak, and I learned about his book Brundibar. I didn't know that his father's entire family was wiped out during the Holocaust, and that he was the lone survivor because of a lark. I'm curious if anyone has read it?

[nfowife]

We are Jewish and I haven't even pondered explaining this to my children yet. At some point, yes. Now, no.

[hellokitty]

We aren't jewish. I don't remember when I first learned about the Holocaust in elementary school. However, I remember learning about it in jr high. However, I don't remember it being extremely in depth. However, in high school, esp AP History (European history), we covered it in depth. We also covered it in American History too. It made an impact on me. I don't know if my classmates felt as sensitive to it, as I did. However, in high school we went to Wash DC for an orchestra trip, and I believe that the Holocaust museum was pretty new, so we went there and I remember how solemn the experience was.

My oldest child is 8 and I know that he wouldn't be able to really understand the Holocaust if I tried to explain it to him. If I were to talk to him about it, it would be in a very simplified version. I think he would take it as information. However, DS2, who is 6 is my thinker and I know he will continue to keep asking me more questions about it. In college, DH bought a graphic novel series called, "Maus," it is about the Holocaust. I still remember that book and even though DH wanted to get rid of the books a few yrs ago when we were de-cluttering, I kept them, since I think that someday my kids should read them, to help them understand the history of the Holocaust.

[dcmom2b3]

How do you start to tell that kid that her own great grandparents (that she knows and loves because we throw away the hate mail and have stopped seeing them) would have had her tortured and killed along with her mom and a ton of other people she loves just becuase of the blood in her veins?

:hug::hug::hug::hug: I have no wisdom to share, only love and empathy. :hug::hug::hug:

[lizzywednesday]

What's timely about this thread is today I was listening to 4 different interviews with Maurice Sendak, and I learned about his book Brundibar. I didn't know that his father's entire family was wiped out during the Holocaust, and that he was the lone survivor because of a lark. I'm curious if anyone has read it?

I'm familiar with it only in passing, as I performed in the stage version of I Never Saw Another Butterfly when I was in high school. (I played the teacher, who was based on Friedl Dicker-Brandeis, a Bauhaus-trained artist who gave "art lessons" to the children at Terezin. These "lessons" were effectively art therapy; many of the pictures and poems are displayed in various Holocaust museums around the world.)

Brundibar was a Czech opera and is mentioned in the story of the stage play as one of the "annual" productions among the children who were transported to Terezeinstadt, which served as the Nazis' "model ghetto" early in the war so they could present a pretty picture to the Red Cross examiners about what they were doing so they wouldn't investigate further.

It's on my list of books to look at and eventually purchase. It may take me a while, but, much like the collection of poetry & artwork that is I Never Saw Another Butterfly, it seems to belong on my bookshelf.

[lizzywednesday]

Ring around the rosie is about the Bubonic Plague aka "black death". Ick. I've never thought of that rhyme the same.

Apparently, that's an urban legend.

Both Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_a_Ring_o%27_Roses) and Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.asp) have lengthy explications as to why it isn't.

[maestramommy]

Brundibar was a Czech opera and is mentioned in the story of the stage play as one of the "annual" productions among the children who were transported to Terezeinstadt, which served as the Nazis' "model ghetto" early in the war so they could present a pretty picture to the Red Cross examiners about what they were doing so they wouldn't investigate further.


I heard Sendak describing what it was, what is was for, and putting himself in the shoes of the children who were performing it for visiting diplomats. I can hardly bear to think on it. Just horrible.