New question in post 8 Stupid BIL

[SnuggleBuggles]

My sister's husband really ticked off this mamma bear, on Mother's Day no less. BIL and sis have no children and that's a good thing. She is a great aunt. BIL has moments of being a good uncle but they are totally undone by his lack of ability to see the world with shades of gray- everything is clearly right or wrong and you stand no chance of changing his mind.

So, today we were at brunch with them and ds1 made a bad choice. A catastrophic, sociopathic choice? No. Did BIL act like ds1 did? Yes.

Brunch was over, check was paid, we were just about done talking. Ds1 had been sucking up ice cubes with his straw, like using the straw as a suction cup by sucking in his air. He got an ice cube picked up and released it into BIL's empty cup. Not a good, mannerly thing to do- that's a given. But BIL went off on ds1. "what the he$$?! Why would you do that???" then more lecturing. A WTF and move on would have been understandable but ds1 wasn't doing it to be a jerk and he got it. The irrate lecture was over the top. Ds1 loves this uncle and was really upset.

Know what I did? Kissed my mom goodbye, thanked my sis and scooped up the kids and left. If I stayed, I wouldn't have said anything good. Really, I get it, ds1 made a dumb choice. But, dude, your cup was empty and we were leaving! He didn't spit into your drink, like you said he did. Have some perspective - and tone down the dramatics. You made my kid cry and made my day far less good.

Eta- he's 43 so not some kid that might have a slightly more valid lack of kid skill set.

[TwinFoxes]

What a jerk. That wouldn't have been acceptable even if he had still been drinking out of it. Honestly I don't think it was worth him saying anything at all for an empty glass! I think standing up and leaving was the best way to not have your mother's day effected any more by that jerk.

[belovedgandp]

I think you handled it very well. They are kids and get bored and make poor choices in group eating situations. It happens. I remember making plenty of my own when out with my parents.

[elbenn]

That was really rude of your BIL. Your DS is a kid, and even if it wasn't great manners, since the cup was empty and you were leaving the restaurant, I don't even think it was that bad. A simple "don't do that again" would have sufficed.

[Still-in-Shock]

I feel so bad for your son. Kids love their uncles, and this probably shocked your son to the core. You can't fix your BIL, but you can prepare your son for the next time you all go out.

As an aside, this behavior has nothing to do with them not having children. We don't have children yet, and my husband is THE favorite uncle. When we show up, the kids are jumping all over him. If a kid misbehaves, he either laughs it off, or tells them not to do it again. That's typically what I see from uncles, married and single, with and without kids. Your BIL is a case unto himself!

[Ceepa]

You showed restraint in a way that I can't say I would have.

If your BIL was having a bad day he didn't need to attend lunch, taking it out on a child is terrible.

[Tondi G]

Wow... your BIL needs to lighten up. He is lucky he isn't my BIL cause he would've gotten an earful from me!

((HUGS)) and Happy Mothers Day.... forget him!

[SnuggleBuggles]

A question re. how to deal with this.

My sister called and apologized for her dh. My parents thought his behavior was appalling. So, everyone present is in agreement. My sister says she would understand if I kept him off the guest list for family events. Sister told me though that her dh truly believes he is right; if he'd seen ds cry he would have said, "too bad, he deserves it.". That wasn't confirmed, just her hunch based on his reaction to it all.

I really want to insist on an apology. I have a pretty tactful email written to him explaining that as the grown up sometimes you need to remember that kids make mistakes but they count on those they care about to still care about them regardless. Even if you feel like you are 100% right, an apology is a good course of action. Played the "ds thinks you're great and really would like to continue having a good relationship with you " card.

Do you think there is any reason not to send my request? I wrote it a day ago and haven't sent it b/c part of me thinks it just isn't worth it. I don't know what response I will get- I have no idea at all, really! It would simplify things for me that if he is a jerk then out he goes but is that really fair to the kids? Ds1 doesn't carry grudges like I do. :)

WWYD?

[niccig]

I wouldn't send it. BIL sound like a d$ck and everyone else, even your sister, is in agreement. D$cks like that won't come around and apologize as they're always 100% right, so it won't be much of an apology, it might actually make things worse with your DS.

I feel for your sister to have him as a DH.

[TwinFoxes]

I wouldn't send it. BIL sound like a d$ck and everyone else, even your sister, is in agreement. D$cks like that won't come around and apologize as they're always 100% right, so it won't be much of an apology, it might actually make things worse with your DS.

I feel for your sister to have him as a DH.

:yeahthat: 100%

[hillview]

I don't know. What does your sister think? It sounds like it might not help much and just be more annoying to you. Kudos to your sis for calling!

[SnuggleBuggles]

Good points. you are right that it could just piss me off mOte!How should I move past this for me and ds1? Avoid? Get over it? Something else?

[edurnemk]

I wouldn't send it. BIL sound like a d$ck and everyone else, even your sister, is in agreement. D$cks like that won't come around and apologize as they're always 100% right, so it won't be much of an apology, it might actually make things worse with your DS.

I feel for your sister to have him as a DH.

:yeahthat:

[TwinFoxes]

Good points. you are right that it could just piss me off mOte!How should I move past this for me and ds1? Avoid? Get over it? Something else?

I have to be honest, I would have a hard time getting over it, especially since this isn't a one off, it's a character flaw. I wouldn't be making much effort to include him in my DCs' life. But maybe that's a character flaw of mine. :)

[DrSally]

I think you're right that it's a good thing they don't have kids. How over the top ridiculous. It was empty and the meal was done. I prob wouldn't send the note, as it doesn't sound like he's going to change his mind.

[DrSally]

Oh, andndid he actually swear at your DS in his fit of anger? That is far worse,
IMO than anything DS did.

[rin]

Wow, I feel like we have the same family member! Your BIL sounds just like my uncle (my mother's sister's husband), who very unfortunately DOES have kids. IME, there's absolutely nothing that can be done about someone like that; as a PP said, it's a fundamental character trait, not something that he's going to be able to work on and change. Honestly, if he really is anything like my uncle, there may well be a streak of mental illness as well; my uncle has bipolar disorder and struggles with depression. He's also just a Grade A a$$hole. Honestly, I wouldn't waste any of your energy trying to repair/foster a relationship with your BIL; I would take your sister at her word when she says she'd understand if you don't include him in family events, and I'd protect your kids from his toxic outbursts. Having grown up with an extended family member who sounds just like your BIL, I can say that as a child I always experienced huge amounts of anxiety about being around him because of the chance that he'd flip out over some totally inconsequential thing that I or one of my siblings/cousins had done. I would move past this whole incident by telling myself that now I don't have to put up with him any more, and then just avoid him wherever possible.

[hillview]

Well my style is to coexist as required (eg at events etc) but to basically otherwise pretend he does not exist and focus on my relationship with my sister. You cannot change people you can only change their impact on you.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Well my style is to coexist as required (eg at events etc) but to basically otherwise pretend he does not exist and focus on my relationship with my sister. You cannot change people you can only change their impact on you.

If it were just me, I'd do it that way. But, it's ds1 (and could easily be ds2).

BIL's never been my favorite person but his behavior has been fine 9 times out of 10. That 10th is a doozy. (He called ds1 the "most ill behaved child he'd ever met" back when ds1 was 4yo. I b*tched about it here. :) I didn't invite BIL to any family events I was hosting for a good year. I decided to just get over it, even though I didn't want to.)

[ellies mom]

I might send a carefully worded e-mail mentioning the following:

"...explaining that as the grown up sometimes you need to remember that kids make mistakes but they count on those they care about to still care about them regardless" and "...ds thinks you're great and really would like to continue having a good relationship with you", maybe work hurt feelings in there somewhere.

But I would stop short of demanding or even asking for an apology. He isn't sorry, so what is the point? I would simply make a statement of fact. "he is a kid, kids do things they shouldn't, they need to know that they are still loved/cared about, his feelings are really hurt", and leave it at that.

FWIW, I could see my husband getting all pissy over something like that also and my husband hardly ever admits to being wrong in situations like that. Getting him to admit it or apologize just makes it worse. It is better to state your views on the topic and move on. Give him time and space to process it. He may not but he may. Who knows.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I might send a carefully worded e-mail mentioning the following:

"...explaining that as the grown up sometimes you need to remember that kids make mistakes but they count on those they care about to still care about them regardless" and "...ds thinks you're great and really would like to continue having a good relationship with you", maybe work hurt feelings in there somewhere.

But I would stop short of demanding or even asking for an apology. He isn't sorry, so what is the point? I would simply make a statement of fact. "he is a kid, kids do things they shouldn't, they need to know that they are still loved/cared about, his feelings are really hurt", and leave it at that.

FWIW, I could see my husband getting all pissy over something like that also and my husband hardly ever admits to being wrong in situations like that. Getting him to admit it or apologize just makes it worse. It is better to state your views on the topic and move on. Give him time and space to process it. He may not but he may. Who knows.

Ooh, I like that!!

[MamaMolly]

Dear BIL,
My son is a child and is still learning appropriate behavior. What is YOUR excuse?
Regards,
SIL

[SnuggleBuggles]

Dear BIL,
My son is a child and is still learning appropriate behavior. What is YOUR excuse?
Regards,
SIL

:ROTFLMAO: I don't think I have the guts to do that. Wish I did!!

[mikala]

I wouldn't send it. BIL sound like a d$ck and everyone else, even your sister, is in agreement. D$cks like that won't come around and apologize as they're always 100% right, so it won't be much of an apology, it might actually make things worse with your DS.

I feel for your sister to have him as a DH.

:yeahthat: I'd skip the note because I don't think it will do anything positive because he doesn't think he did anything wrong.

I'd ignore him as much as possible and focus on your son's relationships with other relatives.

[Toba]

In my own experience, it doesn't sound like your BIL is the "changing" type.

I grew up with physically and emotionally abusive parents. I still deal with the trauma of my childhood on a daily basis (I have severe panic disorder). My dad uses the "shock and awe" style of parenting. DS still adores him, but a couple of years ago DS was exposed to my dad's style of parenting. I had just put a hot tray on the table and told DS to not touch it because it was hot (DS was sitting on my dad's lap). Well, he reached out and touched it. He was 5. The touch was a fraction of a nanosecond and he didn't get burned. My dad flipped out on him and reduced him to tears. I had to go in my room (DH took DS away) and have a panic attack because it was so ... I don't know, disturbing? Mortifying? I literally jumped when he started yelling and I wasn't even in the same room. It just brought back so many strong, raw emotions from my childhood. I will NEVER subject to DS to that again. I beat myself up about the incident for a long time (why didn't I SAY or DO something?!?). As my dad has gotten older, he certainly has mellowed but that one single incident reminded me that the "shock and awe" is still ingrained deeply inside him. I never leave DS with them and I KNOW they know why.

So, I definitely see that kind of behavior pattern in just your short story. And it would concern me even more that your sister obviously sees it too, since she's willing to disclude him from other family events. My gut reaction says take her up on that (but obviously my reaction is from a biased side).

[Still-in-Shock]

While sending a note is the adult thing to do, you are not dealing with a normal adult. Before sending or even writing one, why not ask your sister what her thoughts on that are. After all, you don't want to make things worse for her.

I'm glad your parents are on board with you about this, because your son will need some fun relatives to counterbalance his uncle!

You did say that you would be happy to have BIL stay home for family events except for your son. In that case, you would have to prepare DS for those events. "Now remember, son, if you sit near Uncle Brainless, you have to be on your best behavior, because he has forgotten what being a kid is like. He gets upset when you don't use good table manners/ when you horseplay in the house/ fill in the blank, and we don't want him upset!"

[tabegle]

Uncle Brainless

Love that! :)

Hugs! I have a hard time with the way I was raised versus how I'm raising my kids. My parents have a very difficult time seeing someone else's perspective. (Even their own from 30 years ago when their kids were small.)

[elephantmeg]

I would be somewhere between ellies mom's note and something that said "we will handle our children's discipline. if you have an issue with something one of them says/does please tell us and we will address it, you may not yell at our children that way". And I would have this discussion in person if possible. But I honestly think that you are not going to get an appology