friend's DS out of control?

[nfowife]

I have a friend A. She has 3 kids, an almost 6 YO girl, 4 YO boy and a boy the same age as my youngest DD. Her kids are all a bit "wild" in terms of behavior, but the 4 YO boy is just extremely hard to keep in line. She is very much into "natural parenting", attachment parenting, labels herself as a hippie (and is always working that into the convo wherever it will fit in). Our husbands work together- my husband is in a supervisory role though not her DH's direct supervisor. That's how I know her.
Anyhow, recently we worked together on a project and it came to light even more than I have gotten via facebook and our occasional meetups that her DS is really hard to manage. He does things that IMO are way out of line with typical 4 YO boy behavior. She pulled him out of 2 different preschool programs because of things they did she didn't agree with (well known and like preschools). She has said she'd be shocked if he wasn't eventually dxed with ADHD when he's a bit older. I don't want to share too many specific details but the bottom line is, I think she needs professional help for him. Her "gentle" parenting methods are clearly not working. He has no regard for her authority or any other adult's. He is very destructive at home. She baked a cake this morning and put it up on the fridge to cool off and while she went up to change the baby he got out a stepstool from the garage, climbed it and destroyed the cake (after being told not to touch). She was doing a project with balloons and left the room (after telling him not to touch it) and he popped them all. He took an important envelope, dumped it in the trash and before she could get to it to fish it out he dumped a bowl of soup on it. And this is just the past 2 days of stuff.
Is there anything I can say? I don't think she's a bad parent, AT ALL, I just think that maybe she needs some outside help to set some boundaries for this little guy that he seems to desperately need. I avoid socializing with her honestly, because her kids are crazy and destructive. Anyone been in this situation and said something? She's a really lovely person, well educated and fun to talk with, but I'm not quite sure what to do about her kids, specifically her DS.

[hillview]

well as a mom with a destructive 4 year old who has very rigid limits it is HARD. DS2 threw a heavy bank at my stomach today because I wouldn't take him to the grocery store with me. He has seen a therapist who says he is likely ADHD / more impulse control and a little hyper. Right now DS2 is doing very well in school and so the therapist suggested that we reevaluate in 2 years or sooner if it becomes an issue at school.

So for me I'd offer a sympathetic ear and perhaps mention that you have a "friend" who has similar issues and has tried things if you have specific idea. It is hard to watch the struggle I am sure.

[o_mom]

As the parent of a child like that (those kind of things are a daily occurance here with my 5yo)...I would be very careful of how you say anything. If her child is like mine, it may not be a "parenting failure" (though it is possible, I don't think anyone can judge this from the outside ). Gentle parenting does not equal permissive. Anyway, you can do everything right and still have behavior problems. Also, she may already be getting help and just doesn't share that with everyone.

Bottom line, though...she knows her DS has issues and unless she is living under a rock, she knows there are professionals available if she wants their help.

[mackmama]

Personally I'd stay out of it. If it was a super close friend, I'd maybe broach it in an empathetic way, but in this situation I think I wouldn't say anything.

[Green_Tea]

well as a mom with a destructive 4 year old who has very rigid limits it is HARD.


As the parent of a child like that (those kind of things are a daily occurance here with my 5yo)...I would be very careful of how you say anything. If her child is like mine, it may not be a "parenting failure" (though it is possible, I don't think anyone can judge this from the outside ). Gentle parenting does not equal permissive.


Personally I'd stay out of it.

:yeahthat: to all of the above. I have a son like the child you describe, and I am NOT a permissive parent AT ALL.

[nfowife]

Thanks, guys. I will stay out of it. I don't think she is a bad parent AT ALL. It just seems like she has this idea of who she "wants to be", this crunchy hippie-like image of herself that she is always trying to portray, and it just doesn't seem to be working very well for her. She is very frustrated and stressed and constantly posts things on facebook like "tell me this is normal" "tell me he will grow out of this" etc. And I want to say "it's not normal", kwim? I don't know what I would do in her situation. I just hate to see her struggle is all. But you're right, I don't think she'd take kindly to me giving her the advice to get some pro help either.

[misshollygolightly]

I agree with a PP...I think I'd probably stay out of it unless/until she actually asked you for help or input (or if you were in a situation where her DS's behavior was actually harming you or your kids). Has she asked you for help or suggestions? *If* she has, maybe you could recommend a counselor or therapist (if, in fact, you have someone you've worked with and would recommend), or maybe help her connect with some other mommy friends who have been through the ADHD diagnosis process. But if she hasn't specifically asked for your advice, I'd just be a sympathetic listener and leave it at that. Maybe offer some encouragement (note a few things you really admire about how parenting skills), while also acknowledging that she has a lot to deal with just now. She may also really appreciate hearing you say some sincere, nice things about her son...I'd imagine she's well aware of (and totally sick of) all the judgmental, disapproving looks her DS gets. You could be a good friend just be showing her that you see her son as a real person and not just a kid with a "troublemaker" label. At least, that's what I'd want if I were in her position.

[misshollygolightly]

Based on your update, I also wanted to note that facebook isn't necessarily the whole story. A lot of facebook postings are designed for humor/drama/maximum impact. Not saying she's making stuff up or even exaggerating, but I wouldn't necessarily take her facebook postings as a reflection of how she's really, truly feeling. If these are things she's confiding to you one-on-one, face-to-face that's one thing and it might warrant a more personal response...but facebook updates are another thing all together.

[ha98ed14]

I could have written your post about the child(ren) of friends of ours. They subscribe to the same parenting and discipline philosophy and applying it to their extraordinarily willful children does not appear (to us) to be working. The crappy part for us is that dad in this family is DH's closest friend. They've been friends before wives 'n kids, so there was no way to know that they would come down on pretty opposite sides of these issues. We went over to their house or got together at least once a month when DD and their kids were babies/toddlers. This year, however, we stopped going because the last three times we went DD was jumped on, bitten twice, had sand thrown in her eyes, kicked in the head, and stabbed with a fork. FWIW, these children also do these things to their siblings, but when I write that all out it makes me realize that we needed to stop going after the first head-kicking, biting, sand-throwing visit. The last straw was the fork incident. We ended the visit that moment, gathered our things and went home.

Over all I think we've handled it pretty well. The guys are still friends and go out every Sunday night. I'm friendly with the mom and text her when I find a bargain or if I'm picking up something and she needs it, I will get it for her too. We really like them as people and as adults, we can be friends. We just don't let DD play with (or really interact at all) with their kids. It's not personal; we feel like DD's physical safety is threatened. We wouldn't be doing our job as parents to compromise her safety. After the fork incident, I emailed the mom and dad and copied DH and said pretty much what I said above: Not personal, concern for safety, job as parents, still like you guys, want to stay friends, blah, blah, blah. They said they understood and we've carried on as adult friends but we keep DD away from their kids.

FWIW, I agree with PPs, there is no way you can say anything *about their parenting/child's temperament* that is going to go over well. What you can talk about is your home, your property, your own child's safety. If those things are being threatened, then draw a line and don't feel bad. That's what we did (finally!) and we stand beside it. Our friends *know* their children are difficult because they beat on their siblings. This isn't news to your friend. Your only recourse is to make decisions about your own limits and hold to them. If her 4 y.o. turns out to be a bank robber or the next Dalai Lama, it won't be because of anything you did or did not say, so best just to leave it alone. Our friends were happy to carry on as adult friends and leave the kids out of it. Hopefully yours will be too.

[o_mom]

She is very frustrated and stressed and constantly posts things on facebook like "tell me this is normal" "tell me he will grow out of this" etc. And I want to say "it's not normal", kwim? I don't know what I would do in her situation. I just hate to see her struggle is all. But you're right, I don't think she'd take kindly to me giving her the advice to get some pro help either.

If she does really ask - you could maybe say "Well, those behaviors do seem to be a bit extreme for his age, but I don't know if it is abnormal. Maybe you should talk to your pediatrician and see what he/she thinks."

I would avoid saying that it's not normal, though, because you really do not know. There is a huge range of 'normal' in 3-5 yos and kids at the extreme end of normal can seem abnormal if you have only had experience with middle-of-the-road, relatively compliant children. That is the big reason that most doctors will not diagnose ADHD until age 6+ because so much of the impulsiveness is still within the range of normal.

[Green_Tea]

I would avoid saying that it's not normal, though, because you really do not know. There is a huge range of 'normal' in 3-5 yos and kids at the extreme end of normal can seem abnormal if you have only had experience with middle-of-the-road, relatively compliant children.

A huge :yeahthat:. The people I know who find my son's behavior completely shocking have children who fall at the extremely compliant and laid back end of normal. It's very easy to think that because someone's kids act very differently than your own, they are not normal. When it comes to preschooler behavior, the range of typical behaviors is very wide.

[gatorsmom]

:yeahthat: to all of the above. I have a son like the child you describe, and I am NOT a permissive parent AT ALL.

:yeahthat: some might even say I'm too strict. Three of my children are very well behaved and then there is Greenbean. There are times he appears completely out of control. He has mild SPD.

I'd stay out of it. You may embarrass your friend.

[jellibeans]

I'd stay out of it. Don't you think she knows she has a problem?