I have to stop this torture, right? Sleep training - UPDATE IN OP

[Kira's Mommy]

Well, it started as a CIO for baby and it ended as a CIO for mommy. I feel so stupid and guilty, I cry myself to sleep every day now.

So we gave up. Neither of us was ready. What I've seen with my DS was passing out exhausted from crying, not self-soothing. No sings of improvement.

I dont know if I'll ever try this again with this kid. It just means my older DD will get to watch A LOT of cartoons while I'm bouncing DS to sleep. When DD naps in the afternoon, I will lie down with DS too. Hopefully, he'll nap for more than 30min.

Thank you very much for all your help and support ladies. You're awesome.

He slept in my bed last night. Best. feeling. ever.

__________________________________________________ _______________

I have to stop this torture, right?

DS is 4.5 months old.

This is how it went so far. After bedtime routine we get him drowsy, put him in a crib, we sit in a chair next to his crib, talk to him, touch him and comfort him. If he is too histerical, we pick him up to comfort him. When he calms down, we place him back in the crib.

Day 1 - Night - cried for 50 minutes before falling asleep. Woke up twice to feed. Fell asleep right away after the feeding.

Day 2 - Naps - cried for 30-40 minutes before each nap. Slept for 30-40 minutes each time.

Day 2 - Night - cried for 35 minutes. Woke up twice to feed. Fall asleep right away after the feeding.

Day 3 - Naps - cried for 30-40 minutes before each nap. Slept for 40 minutes each time.

Day 3 - Night - cried for 45 minutes before I had to stop this madness.

He's not ready, right? I have to stop?


DS was a colicky baby who'd only fall asleep after me jumping on the exercise ball/nursing him to sleep (most of the time combination of both, even at night after a feeding). He'd ONLY sleep in my arms for 3.5 month. After 3.5 months I can put him down for naps but he sleeps for 30-40 minutes max. Unless I rock him and then lie down with him. Then he'd sleep for 3.5 hours. At night, he'd wake up every hour or two, then at around 1 or 2 or 3 am I'd become too exhausted and take him to my bed. Getting him to sleep often takes 60 min + and he'd cry a lot.

My DD was a bad sleeper too. I never CIO with her and, unlike what most sleep experts say, she eventually outgrew all her sleep issues with gentle encouragement.

With DS, I got too much pressure to sleep train from everyone - DH, my ped, friends. More than anything, I was scared for DD's safety as she'd often alone watching cartoons while I'm rocking DS to sleep. Also, unlike my DD, DS didn't seem well rested. Something had to change.

[Philly Mom]

Don't sleep train nights and naps. My DD could not nap in her crib until close to 6 months. Every three weeks I would try and eventually it worked when she was ready. She was night trained much earlier. I think you are probably doing too much. Give it some time off and then do nights first. Once you get nights then try for naps.

[maylips]

4.5 months is pretty early to CIO - I think you'll find most people on here will say the very earliest to try would be 6 months.

I know you're frustrated and it's hard for you in the middle of this right now, Mama. My DD was one that slept through the night by 8 weeks and I thought I was the Sleep Whisperer. Then DS came along and didn't really sleep through the night consistently until he was 7 months old. I swear boys need to eat more - DS was just a hungrier kid (or DD was much more efficient at it, which I'm now starting to think might be more the case as they get older and he's still a distracted eater!)

I'm not anti-CIO, but I would hold off until he's older. Ignore all the pressure and do what your instincts tell you. And I agree with the PP in that you should start with nights only once he's a little older.

:hug: I know how hard it is when EVERYONE knows how to raise a baby better than the mama.

[nfowife]

I agree with PP. Focus on nights first. Naps usually follow along a bit later and are much easier with a baby who is getting enough rest at night. They are not categorized the same in the brain and it doesn't transfer between in terms of training.
So far for nights it sounds like par for the course. There is usually a drop, then a rise, and it should drop down again. Focus on nights only, and give it a good 5-7 more nights.
During the day, carefully watch sleep times- do not let him get overtired. Here is a wake times chart. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X99fZTnH2Dy4gjkqjpaU_BFmwVFXMh4I3sw2Az5NyaI/edit?hl=en&authkey=CMf7gtwH&pli=1#
At 4.5 months he should be on 3 naps most likely. Max wake time is 2 hours and that INCLUDES nursing to sleep time. It's not long! You want him back to sleep by the 2 hour mark if you can, by whatever means necessary...in a carrier, swaddled in a swing, bouncy chair, etc. If you are catching him before he is overtired (which is when the tired signs start! It's hard to catch) he will be easier to get down to nap. But while you are ST you need to do whatever you can to get adequate daytime sleep so he isn't overtired at bedtime. That will hamper things. Sleep begets sleep!

[Kira's Mommy]

Don't sleep train nights and naps. My DD could not nap in her crib until close to 6 months. Every three weeks I would try and eventually it worked when she was ready. She was night trained much earlier. I think you are probably doing too much. Give it some time off and then do nights first. Once you get nights then try for naps.

ITA. Thanks

[AJP]

I agree with PP. Focus on nights first. Naps usually follow along a bit later and are much easier with a baby who is getting enough rest at night. They are not categorized the same in the brain and it doesn't transfer between in terms of training.
So far for nights it sounds like par for the course. There is usually a drop, then a rise, and it should drop down again. Focus on nights only, and give it a good 5-7 more nights.
During the day, carefully watch sleep times- do not let him get overtired. Here is a wake times chart. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X99fZTnH2Dy4gjkqjpaU_BFmwVFXMh4I3sw2Az5NyaI/edit?hl=en&authkey=CMf7gtwH&pli=1#
At 4.5 months he should be on 3 naps most likely. Max wake time is 2 hours and that INCLUDES nursing to sleep time. It's not long! You want him back to sleep by the 2 hour mark if you can, by whatever means necessary...in a carrier, swaddled in a swing, bouncy chair, etc. If you are catching him before he is overtired (which is when the tired signs start! It's hard to catch) he will be easier to get down to nap. But while you are ST you need to do whatever you can to get adequate daytime sleep so he isn't overtired at bedtime. That will hamper things. Sleep begets sleep!

We had great results following all of this! We got nights settled first and then the naps followed. And I second (or third) sleep begets sleep! Get them going down at the right time before they're over tired! It was so important for me to get my twins to fall asleep on their own and learn to soothe themselves, but I put the same amount of time/effort/structure into my DS because I saw how incredibly important it was to form these good habits early. Maybe we were lucky, but all of these things helped (saved us) and I have 3 great sleepers today! Good luck. It sounds like you're on the right track and have great advice from PP's!!

[Kira's Mommy]

4.5 months is pretty early to CIO - I think you'll find most people on here will say the very earliest to try would be 6 months.

I know you're frustrated and it's hard for you in the middle of this right now, Mama. My DD was one that slept through the night by 8 weeks and I thought I was the Sleep Whisperer. Then DS came along and didn't really sleep through the night consistently until he was 7 months old. I swear boys need to eat more - DS was just a hungrier kid (or DD was much more efficient at it, which I'm now starting to think might be more the case as they get older and he's still a distracted eater!)

I'm not anti-CIO, but I would hold off until he's older. Ignore all the pressure and do what your instincts tell you. And I agree with the PP in that you should start with nights only once he's a little older.

:hug: I know how hard it is when EVERYONE knows how to raise a baby better than the mama.

Thanks. This is the very first time EVER I went against my instincts as a parent and here's the result. It was my ped who said this was the time to start or else it'll be a lot harder as he "gets smarter". My poor DS.

I don't mind waking up at night to feed. I don't mind co-sleeping. My DD didn't STTN until 12 mo. What I'm worried about is a over-tired baby, which my DS was/is. He wouldn't sleep even in my bed with my boob in his mouth. Ugh.

[Kira's Mommy]

I agree with PP. Focus on nights first. Naps usually follow along a bit later and are much easier with a baby who is getting enough rest at night. They are not categorized the same in the brain and it doesn't transfer between in terms of training.
So far for nights it sounds like par for the course. There is usually a drop, then a rise, and it should drop down again. Focus on nights only, and give it a good 5-7 more nights.
During the day, carefully watch sleep times- do not let him get overtired. Here is a wake times chart. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X99fZTnH2Dy4gjkqjpaU_BFmwVFXMh4I3sw2Az5NyaI/edit?hl=en&authkey=CMf7gtwH&pli=1#
At 4.5 months he should be on 3 naps most likely. Max wake time is 2 hours and that INCLUDES nursing to sleep time. It's not long! You want him back to sleep by the 2 hour mark if you can, by whatever means necessary...in a carrier, swaddled in a swing, bouncy chair, etc. If you are catching him before he is overtired (which is when the tired signs start! It's hard to catch) he will be easier to get down to nap. But while you are ST you need to do whatever you can to get adequate daytime sleep so he isn't overtired at bedtime. That will hamper things. Sleep begets sleep!

Thanks so much for replying. I read a few sleep training books, including the Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child. So I've been pretty good with the sleep window strategy. With DD I'd even say I got it to perfection.

What I don't remember ever reading that I should do nights first. Damn you post-partum brain.

ETA: I followed Sleep Sense by Dana Obleman recommended by three of my IRL friends. The book actually says to do nights and naps at the same time, which I now know is not a good idea.

[Philly Mom]

I don't mind waking up at night to feed. I don't mind co-sleeping. My DD didn't STTN until 12 mo. What I'm worried about is a over-tired baby, which my DS was/is. He wouldn't sleep even in my bed with my boob in his mouth. Ugh.

Are you saying that pre-sleep training he was not sleeping well next to you? If yes, perhaps he is like my DD who truly likes to sleep on her own. After 8 weeks, she would not sleep on me unless so exhausted and then only milk drunk. She slept in the car during the day, the swing during the day (until 5 months when she thought it was for fun and not sleep), and her crib at night.

You need to do what makes you comfortable. If you are not committed to doing it, wait. My ped also scared me into doing it earlier than I wanted and I had a couple nights like you are talking about but within a week crying never lasted more than 5-10 mins and soon thereafter crying lasted less than a minute. And soon after that she became a great nighttime sleeper, still bad during the day but a good night sleeper. She was 6 months before she napped well in her crib. At 10 months she cries for 5 secs tops until I close the door and she is almost always asleep by the time I walk down the stairs.

[Kira's Mommy]

Are you saying that pre-sleep training he was not sleeping well next to you? If yes, perhaps he is like my DD who truly likes to sleep on her own. After 8 weeks, she would not sleep on me unless so exhausted and then only milk drunk. She slept in the car during the day, the swing during the day (until 5 months when she thought it was for fun and not sleep), and her crib at night.

You need to do what makes you comfortable. If you are not committed to doing it, wait. My ped also scared me into doing it earlier than I wanted and I had a couple nights like you are talking about but within a week crying never lasted more than 5-10 mins and soon thereafter crying lasted less than a minute. And soon after that she became a great nighttime sleeper, still bad during the day but a good night sleeper. She was 6 months before she napped well in her crib. At 10 months she cries for 5 secs tops until I close the door and she is almost always asleep by the time I walk down the stairs.

Sometimes he would sleep next to me, sometimes he wouldn't. Sometimes he'd take 3.5 hour naps if I lie next to him. Sometimes I cant get him to fall asleep in the middle of the night after a feeding in my bed. I have to rock him to sleep on the exercise ball for 30 min + in the middle of the night and then put him next to me. If I put him in his crib at night, he wakes up.

Ugh. I hate this. I hate this so much. I don't think either of us was/is ready. Thank you ladies for all your support.

[nfowife]

Also want to add, it is on the early side for ST. Recommended age is 4-6 months, easier babies closer to 4, more "difficult" temperments might need to wait until 6. But since you started you might as well give it a few more nights and see. It won't harm him to give it the old college try. If it doesn't start to improve you might take a step back, focus on sticking to the wake times and try again closer to 6 months. Do you have a swing? Do you swaddle? The only way my younger 2 kids would nap until around 7-8 months was swaddled, then nursed to sleep/sleepy, then put in a *moving* swing while I started swaying to the motion so there was no stop in movement. Hey, whatever works. All mine sleep great, alone, all night long and have since before they turned 1. Do what you gotta do!!

[Green_Tea]

I will be the outlier who says START with naps, and here's why - an overtired baby is difficult to get to sleep. If your DS is not a great napper, he'll ALWAYS be overtired at night, and it will be harder to get him to fall asleep solo. If you start with naps, you have the advantage of them not starting out at their wits end. DD1 was my toughest sleeper - I started sleep training at 3 months (because it was 9 years ago and I didn't know any better.) When she had been awake for 90 or 100 minutes after waking up for the day, I'd change her dipe, nurse her, sing her a song, lower her shades and put her down (awake). The routine took 20-25 minutes. Usually she went down about 5 minutes shy of 2 hours from when she woke, and would be asleep within 5-10 minutes. It was all about hitting that window. She couldn't already be showing signs of being tired - if she was, it was too late. And the PP was right - sleep begets sleep. DD was a completely different baby once she started getting enough sleep.

Once we nailed the nap routine, nights were a piece of cake. But if she missed a nap during the day, nights were really hard. Putting an overtired baby to bed is an exercise in frustration.

The other advantage to starting with naps is that *you're* not so exhausted and emotional. I found it really hard to deal with sleep issues when I already felt completely spent.

Just my .02 - every baby is different, of course, so take my free advice for what it's worth ;).

[edurnemk]

It was my ped who said this was the time to start or else it'll be a lot harder as he "gets smarter". My poor DS.


I have to disagree with your Ped, we sleep trained DS at 13 months and it worked in 3 nights.

I also think 4.5 months is a little young for sleep training. And also I see you said in your first post that when he's too upset you pick him up from his crib. I think you should try to comfort him without picking him up: bend down close to him, rub his back, etc.

We sort of merged No-cry sleep solution with the Ferber approach, to first wean him off the habit of me rocking him to sleep and then did the Ferber with the coming in every X minutes to soothe him without picking him up.

DS was a terrible napper the first few months, and I resorted to "whatever works", I sort of followed the 90 minute sleep-to-wake cycle to know when he'd be ready to nap, and for his midday nap I'd take him for a walk in the stroller, he'd doze off and then I'd push the stroller into his room and let him nap there. Other times I put him in the sling, or the swing.

[Kira's Mommy]

Also want to add, it is on the early side for ST. Recommended age is 4-6 months, easier babies closer to 4, more "difficult" temperments might need to wait until 6. But since you started you might as well give it a few more nights and see. It won't harm him to give it the old college try. If it doesn't start to improve you might take a step back, focus on sticking to the wake times and try again closer to 6 months. Do you have a swing? Do you swaddle? The only way my younger 2 kids would nap until around 7-8 months was swaddled, then nursed to sleep/sleepy, then put in a *moving* swing while I started swaying to the motion so there was no stop in movement. Hey, whatever works. All mine sleep great, alone, all night long and have since before they turned 1. Do what you gotta do!!


ITA with the early side comment. I don't know what I was thinking listening to my ped. I feel so guilty right now, it makes me sick to my stomach.

DS hates swings with passion. He also hates strollers. And car rides. He would only sleep in his Miracle Blanket for a while. He wouldn't sleep for long, but he'd sleep! Then he got too big for it (he is 17 lb). At this point, he escapes all swaddling blankets.

[Philly Mom]

Don't feel guilty. Sleep is important to both of you and you are trying to figure out what will work. Do what makes you comfortable but don't feel guilty. All choices are out of love and what works for one may not work for another.

[mikala]

The other thing to consider is that he could be at that icky sleep regression stage/age where his sleep can't really be "fixed" with any method. More on sleep regressions here:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006/02/qa_what_are_sle.html

My DS was a similarly cruddy sleeper. I remember feeling like I was about to lose my mind at that stage because the mama sleep deprivation had just compounded since infancy and everything that seemed to kinda work one week totally flew out the window the next. I read the books, I followed the good sleep habit suggestions....but my DS seemed to be reading an entirely different set of sleep books written in some other language.

The concept of regressions was kind of amusing because it was hard to regress from itty-bitty intervals of sleep in the first place. But in retrospect it does make sense that things got intermittently harder and slightly easier. I read the above post after we finally had some blissful stretches of sleep and so many things finally made sense.

You're not alone and it does get better. :hug:

ETA: you mentioned in an above post that your DS was colicky. Any chance of a dairy intolerance or reflux? Both of those can contribute to cruddy sleep and a continually tired baby.

[waver]

Don't feel guilty side about ST early.

We read somewhere that extra colicky babies could try to ST earlier.

We started on DS's 4 month birthday. On the dot. B/c he was a terrible sleeper: sleep 1-2 hours then wake crying, all night long. Waking up 4-6 times a night, we were exhausted.

Perhaps it takes longer, when they are young. It was extremely difficult the 1st week, like you described (longer than the sleep books say). It was probably one of the hardest things we have ever done.

2nd week, got much better, down to few seconds or less of crying. He would wake twice and then once a night. By 5 months, sleeping through the night 12-13 hours.

DS is now 7 and still a fantastic sleeper. After training, as an older baby and toddler and now kid, he would cry for us maybe once or twice a year! Completely changed our lives.

That's our experience, but we definitely understand wanting to wait until the baby is bigger.

[TxCat]

ITA with the early side comment. I don't know what I was thinking listening to my ped. I feel so guilty right now, it makes me sick to my stomach.


Our original pedi put pressure on us to sleep train around 3-4 months too. We tried around 4 months, and it didn't work at all. Tried again around 6 months and success. I say end it now and try again later.

[hoodlims]

It may be too early. Our kiddos are similar in age. My DD was very bright even from a young age. We sleep trained her at 3m. Super early, but she got it, and has been a great sleeper ever since. DS we started around 4, 4-5m. He just didn't seem to get it. After 2-3 nights of no improvement on the crying/staying asleep front, I gave up. Attempted it again in another 2 weeks. And repeat. Now he is almost 6 months, in his own crib in his own room, and while he is still not sleeping through the night, he isn't picked up and fed if it has only been 2-3hrs after his last feeding. Generally he will last anywhere from 6-8hours without a feeding at night. Small baby steps. It is ok to back off and try again.

[daisysmom]

I agree, it is probably too early. But DO NOT FEEL GUILTY. The little ones are great at forgiving and forgettig!! Start today with your new routine :)

My DD was rocked to sleep always for bedtime, it took awhile (and we didn't have another baby) but she needed it. How about a mobile or crib toy for naps? Those worked for us. Some kids just aren't great nappers -- mine wasn't. She would get the minimum that worked for her, and sometimes for longer stretches, but never great. I sleep trained/CIO'd several different times for periods and I believe it works for a kid that doesn't know how to fall asleep on his or her own. But it doesn't work for a kid that just needs some more mommy or daddy time, and it is very hard to know which way a child is. Good luck though. Trust your gut now and just don't look back.

[flashy09]

My DS was a similarly cruddy sleeper. I remember feeling like I was about to lose my mind at that stage because the mama sleep deprivation had just compounded since infancy and everything that seemed to kinda work one week totally flew out the window the next. I read the books, I followed the good sleep habit suggestions....but my DS seemed to be reading an entirely different set of sleep books written in some other language.


I am following this thread with interest. This is right where I am. I would give anything for her newborn days when I got 2-3 hrs in a row. I remember her going from 6 pm- 2 am for weeks and thinking "won't it be nice when she drops the 2 am feed soon!" Ha, right, try adding 8 more wake ups instead when she turned four months! I get about 2 hrs a night, all broken up, and am leaving on an overseas trip tomorrow. Crying it out doesn't work...nursing her/co sleeping does, but I read too many pamphlets saying not to do it - I do believe it's safe and I do it safely - but I can't tell my brain that and sleep terribly and every time I wake up I frantically make sure she ok.

Sorry to hijack this thread - just commiserating and feeling sorry for myself after a terrible night!

[sntm]

So glad you are feeling better - Remember, even the most needy sleepers get better with time