WWYD - Saying grace

[BabyBearsMom]

DD1 is in private pre-school and they say a non-denominational grace at lunch (God is good, God is great etc.). I am an atheist and DH is agnostic, but we knew about the grace coming into the school and decided it wasn't a big enough deal to offset all of the great things about the school. DD1 likes the prayer and runs around saying it a lot and I treat it as though she is singing any other song. The other night at dinner, she wanted to say grace before she ate. Our treatment of this is that DD1 is welcome to do this and DH and I just don't join in. DD1 started insisting that I repeat after her. I politely said "no thank you" but she kept asking. I calmly told her that some people like to say grace and some do not and we should respect everyone's wishes, but I think that went a bit over her 2 year old head. Anyway, we ended up with her in full out tantrum because I wouldn't do the prayer with her.

So what should I have done? Should I just do the prayer to satisfy her even though I don't believe in it? I don't want to tell her not to do it because if my children decide that they want religion in their lives, I am okay with that and will help them do it. But at the same time, I don't want say something that I don't believe.

[janine]

I have no real grounds for my answer, but I probably would have said it along with her. She's 2 so it's n ot going to mislead her and for me, if I don't beieve in God, I'm not really caring if I say the word or not. It's not like she's forcing you to believe.

I do think it's funny though, how little kids are so perceptive, even unknowingly so..it's almost like they sense something we are reluctant about and then hone in on that.

[almostmom]

I understand your dilemma, though I haven't experienced that exactly myself.

I am an atheist as well, but I do say a grace before dinner. I'm just not thanking god, but the earth, the meal, etc. So if I were you, I might try and develop a grace that does work for your family. I find it nice to have a moment of thanks once a day (not that we do it every day, but DH and I do it almost daily). Thanks for the earth, thanks for the plants and animals, thanks for the sea, thanks for this time to share a meal together, and then we let the kids say thanks for anything they want from their day. It may feel too spiritual for you, but I find the ritual meaningful, and not religious at all for me. We have friends who are also not religious, but had a nice rhyming diddy that they said before dinner. I don't remember it, but you could probably find something online that would satisfy the fun song of the one at school, and satisfy you not wanting to be saying a prayer.

Just a thought!

[ChristinaLucia]

I was thinking a nice non-God grace too! Or if she wants to do her one from school maybe you could tell her you will both hold her hands while she says it.

My DD 6, asks so many questions about God and gets a ton of information from our Catholic neighbors and follows up with us. We don't attend church and I find it difficult sometimes to explain.

[twowhat?]

I like PPs solution and that's the first thing I thought of too - come up with a grace that you can say with her and just tell her for now that this is the version you use at home - it may help to make it as similar to the one she says at school as possible. 2 years is probably too young to get into any explanation that's more complicated:)

At our girls' school they say "Thank you for the food we eat, thank you for the birds that sing. Thank you God for everything" or something like that...it would be easy to substitute "Earth" for "God".

[Pear]

We made sure to choose a school without any religion for this reason. At DD's school they won't stop a kid who independently wants to pray, but teachers are expressly forbidden from encouraging religion in any way. Kids that age just don't have the critical thinking skills to understand exactly what it is they are parroting. Personally I would not participate even if there are tantrums. While I want my daughter to make up her own mind when she is old enough, I also want to model what I believe is correct.

[BabyBearsMom]

While I want my daughter to make up her own mind when she is old enough, I also want to model what I believe is correct.

This is definitely how I feel. Not only do I not want to model behavior that I don't believe for DD1, but I also just don't want to do something that I don't believe in for myself. It took a lot of soul searching to come to my religious choices and faking it doesn't feel good to me.

[speo]

In the moment, I would have said what you said and not done the grace even with a tantrum. If you ride the tantrums out, she won't keep doing them over and over. That is her way of learning what happens in your family.

Now I wouldn't have thought of doing a grace that you approve of as a family. I think that is a great idea. However, if you start you may have to really like it because it could become tradition.

[janine]

This is definitely how I feel. Not only do I not want to model behavior that I don't believe for DD1, but I also just don't want to do something that I don't believe in for myself. It took a lot of soul searching to come to my religious choices and faking it doesn't feel good to me.

Makes sense. I guess I had looked at this as a one-off thing and that you actually were trying to not influence her. I just imagined that by having her attend a school where grace is said, that you would have determined you were ok with that exposure (and what ensued), even though you yourself do not believe.

Let us know what you decide, it's a tough one.

[crl]

I would do exactly what you did. Just because she wants it doesn't mean she gets it, just like with a lot of other things I am sure you say no to her about (eating chocolate coverd caramels at bedtime, running into the street, etc). If she's like my kids,standing your ground a few times will do the trick and she will stop trying to force you to do something you don't want to do. For me, this would be something I would put up with the tantrum over for sure. (Although if you can come up with a distraction that works, I'd go with that of course.)

Catherine

[HannaAddict]

I wouldn't go to the mat with a two year old about saying grace - at six maybe a but two, no way. Especially since you have put her in a school where that is a major (meaning every day) feature. It is not like she heard it once and wanted to do it, she is being exposed to saying grace daily by her teachers (adults, authority figures) and is young and impressionable and too little to debate or understand religious or lack of religious beliefs. I would keep letting her know it isn't what you believe but think of an alternative besides totally refusing since she's two and this stuff is complicated. And you knew going in she would be indoctrinated to some degree.


saying it with my grandparents and would say it at home

[urbanmommy]

I wouldn't go to the mat with a two year old about saying grace - at six maybe a but two, no way. Especially since you have put her in a school where that is a major (meaning every day) feature. It is not like she heard it once and wanted to do it, she is being exposed to saying grace daily by her teachers (adults, authority figures) and is young and impressionable and too little to debate or understand religious or lack of religious beliefs. I would keep letting her know it isn't what you believe but think of an alternative besides totally refusing since she's two and this stuff is complicated. And you knew going in she would be indoctrinated to some degree.


saying it with my grandparents and would say it at home

I agree. She likes the ritual of it and she's too little to know what it means. I like the idea of coming up with your own non-theist grace for your family.

[randomkid]

I would do exactly what you did. Just because she wants it doesn't mean she gets it, just like with a lot of other things I am sure you say no to her about (eating chocolate coverd caramels at bedtime, running into the street, etc). If she's like my kids,standing your ground a few times will do the trick and she will stop trying to force you to do something you don't want to do. For me, this would be something I would put up with the tantrum over for sure. (Although if you can come up with a distraction that works, I'd go with that of course.)

I don't think this is really fair to a 2 year old, though. It's not the same as asking for candy. If you choose to knowingly send your child to a preschool where they have prayer, then you are essentially telling your child that you approve of it. I'm not sure how I would handle the situation either, but I don't think not allowing the child to say a simple prayer at home when you send them to a school that allows it is the solution. It's very confusing to a young child.

OP, if I were you, I'd look into what other religious type activities the school may have/teach. If you are not comfortable with a simple grace before dinner, then bigger things that come up may be even more difficult for you. I think it is great that you will allow your children to make their own choices, but they will need to be much older to understand this on any level. Sending your child to a school where they say grace, then telling her she can't do it at home just doesn't seem fair to me. I know you told her she could do it herself, but it was obviously important to her to have you included. Do they pray before other events or have a Christmas program where they sing songs about Jesus? I know you likely looked into it before signing her up, but the fact that they say grace and they are private leads me to think there may be more to come.

Personally, I would not be comfortable exposing my child to things I don't believe in. I will also support DD in whatever choices she makes in life, but for now, I have to do what I feel comfortable with. I am Christian and DD attends a private Christian school, but I don't think I could be Ok sending her to a Jewish Community Center no matter how great their program might be. This was an option for us when DD was in daycare/preschool and I was told that children of all backgrounds, not just Jewish, attended. Supposedly, they didn't have a lot of religion in their teachings, but I couldn't see how that would be possible. People told me how great the school was, but I wasn't comfortable with sending DD to a school with beliefs that are so different from my own. DD, DSDs, DH and I all have friends of varying religious beliefs, so I have no issue with people having different beliefs. DH and I just have to do what we are comfortable with for our family, so I understand your need to do that for yours as well. But, if something your DD is being exposed to makes you uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to reevaluate your choice of school.

[mackmama]

I wouldn't go to the mat with a two year old about saying grace - at six maybe a but two, no way. Especially since you have put her in a school where that is a major (meaning every day) feature. It is not like she heard it once and wanted to do it, she is being exposed to saying grace daily by her teachers (adults, authority figures) and is young and impressionable and too little to debate or understand religious or lack of religious beliefs. I would keep letting her know it isn't what you believe but think of an alternative besides totally refusing since she's two and this stuff is complicated. And you knew going in she would be indoctrinated to some degree.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat:

I also like the idea of finding a grace that works for everyone. (You'll still then have the issue of having to explain why you aren't saying the same grace she's learning in school.)

[Pennylane]

I don't think this is really fair to a 2 year old, though. It's not the same as asking for candy. If you choose to knowingly send your child to a preschool where they have prayer, then you are essentially telling your child that you approve of it. I'm not sure how I would handle the situation either, but I don't think not allowing the child to say a simple prayer at home when you send them to a school that allows it is the solution. It's very confusing to a young child.

OP, if I were you, I'd look into what other religious type activities the school may have/teach. If you are not comfortable with a simple grace before dinner, then bigger things that come up may be even more difficult for you. I think it is great that you will allow your children to make their own choices, but they will need to be much older to understand this on any level. Sending your child to a school where they say grace, then telling her she can't do it at home just doesn't seem fair to me. I know you told her she could do it herself, but it was obviously important to her to have you included. Do they pray before other events or have a Christmas program where they sing songs about Jesus? I know you likely looked into it before signing her up, but the fact that they say grace and they are private leads me to think there may be more to come.

Personally, I would not be comfortable exposing my child to things I don't believe in. I will also support DD in whatever choices she makes in life, but for now, I have to do what I feel comfortable with. I am Christian and DD attends a private Christian school, but I don't think I could be Ok sending her to a Jewish Community Center no matter how great their program might be. This was an option for us when DD was in daycare/preschool and I was told that children of all backgrounds, not just Jewish, attended. Supposedly, they didn't have a lot of religion in their teachings, but I couldn't see how that would be possible. People told me how great the school was, but I wasn't comfortable with sending DD to a school with beliefs that are so different from my own. DD, DSDs, DH and I all have friends of varying religious beliefs, so I have no issue with people having different beliefs. DH and I just have to do what we are comfortable with for our family, so I understand your need to do that for yours as well. But, if something your DD is being exposed to makes you uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to reevaluate your choice of school.

My thoughts exactly!

Ann

[megs4413]

I would have just said it. Honestly, I don't think it's that big of a deal. My kids loved to say it at that age (maybe because it's a rhyme?) and that phase passed. Now it's a chore to get them to stop giggling long enough to say grace.

Alternatively, you could come up with something you could say in your family that would appease her, but not impinge on your religious beliefs. Like, Today was great, today was good, now let's eat some yummy food! Maybe?

[TwinFoxes]

I would do exactly what you did. Just because she wants it doesn't mean she gets it, just like with a lot of other things I am sure you say no to her about (eating chocolate coverd caramels at bedtime, running into the street, etc). If she's like my kids,standing your ground a few times will do the trick and she will stop trying to force you to do something you don't want to do. For me, this would be something I would put up with the tantrum over for sure. (Although if you can come up with a distraction that works, I'd go with that of course.)

Catherine

:yeahthat: I think you did the right thing, and should continue to do it. You respected her choice, she should respect yours, even at two. :)

[elektra]

My DD went to a Christian preschool and they do a grace there that never even mentioned God!
Thanks for hands, hands, hands (they would hold hands), thanks for food, food, food, thanks for friends, friends, friends. Amen (or "Old Men" as DD would say it- LOL!)

The school was the best pick for us- the religious aspect was neither a plus or minus for us. My second pick was a Jewish school and I was open to sending DD there, even though she would have learned some religious stories and songs too. (I was raised in a non-religious household, Christian influenced household. And I myself do not identify as a Christian.)

I might just tell your DD that she is welcome to do the grace but you don't believe in God and so it feels wrong to you to say it if you didn't really mean it. But that many people do believe in God.
That is how I frame things to DD (she did go through a phase where she was really into Jesus stories. Honestly I think it was like any other character that kids latch onto) - I just tell her what I believe but also tell her that there are a lot of people who believe otherwise. I tell her that the concepts of love and forgiveness are great and I think that is why a lot of people like those stories. They are nice stories and she is free to have them read to her(My ILs are very Catholic and so we have a lot of kids religious books around.)

I do think the concept of gratitude is also good so maybe a more general "declaration of gratitude" is the way to go. I do like that idea personally. But I also think it's fine if you decide to just tell her that in your house you don't do a "grace" as it is not your custom, even though she does it as school.

Overall, for me, it's not that big of a deal. Maybe I just know it's not something I can control as I sent DD to that school knowing it has some religious exposure, and so I just roll with it.

[TwinFoxes]

I'm not sure how I would handle the situation either, but I don't think not allowing the child to say a simple prayer at home when you send them to a school that allows it is the solution. It's very confusing to a young child.


But OP does let her say the prayer, she doesn't join in. I think it's a good way to show that different people have different beliefs, and they should be respected.

[gatorsmom]

I wouldn't go to the mat with a two year old about saying grace - at six maybe a but two, no way. Especially since you have put her in a school where that is a major (meaning every day) feature. It is not like she heard it once and wanted to do it, she is being exposed to saying grace daily by her teachers (adults, authority figures) and is young and impressionable and too little to debate or understand religious or lack of religious beliefs. I would keep letting her know it isn't what you believe but think of an alternative besides totally refusing since she's two and this stuff is complicated. And you knew going in she would be indoctrinated to some degree.




:yeahthat: It's not like she is saying she believes in God and wants you to as well. At this point it's no different for her than singing any little song. They do it at school, teach it at school and she wants Mommy and Daddy to join in. She's not trying to evangelize you. And if you did give in, you aren't establishing a pattern of giving in to her tantrums. She wont remember this event as she is too young. And giving in to her little song doesn't make a statement about your religious beliefs. At this age, she doesnt' even know what religion means. At this point in her life, it's all about play. Nothing more serious than that.

[AnnieW625]

I wouldn't go to the mat with a two year old about saying grace - at six maybe a but two, no way. Especially since you have put her in a school where that is a major (meaning every day) feature. It is not like she heard it once and wanted to do it, she is being exposed to saying grace daily by her teachers (adults, authority figures) and is young and impressionable and too little to debate or understand religious or lack of religious beliefs. I would keep letting her know it isn't what you believe but think of an alternative besides totally refusing since she's two and this stuff is complicated. And you knew going in she would be indoctrinated to some degree. ....

My thoughts exactly. I don't really have any other advice to give you in regards to that though. Good luck.

[janine]

:yeahthat: It's not like she is saying she believes in God and wants you to as well. At this point it's no different for her than singing any little song. They do it at school, teach it at school and she wants Mommy and Daddy to join in. She's not trying to evangelize you. And if you did give in, you aren't establishing a pattern of giving in to her tantrums. She wont remember this event as she is too young. And giving in to her little song doesn't make a statement about your religious beliefs. At this age, she doesnt' even know what religion means. At this point in her life, it's all about play. Nothing more serious than that.

I kinda agree- I guess there are 2 camps of thought on this.

I dont see it as giving into something that you don't believe in - I see it as giving in to singing a song with her! Because I'm not religious, I just don't find it that big a deal to me either way. I also find 2 too young to explain how I don't believe,etc. I would think a 2 yr old just knows it as a song/poem that is said at school, and mommy won't say it with me b/c of something she doesn't believe,..could be a bit early for that heavy lesson. And then there is also the point that you indirectly agreed to the exposure by enrolling her in the school, so in a way decision was made back then?

Just my 2cents for now :).

[pinkmomagain]

We made sure to choose a school without any religion for this reason. At DD's school they won't stop a kid who independently wants to pray, but teachers are expressly forbidden from encouraging religion in any way. Kids that age just don't have the critical thinking skills to understand exactly what it is they are parroting. Personally I would not participate even if there are tantrums. While I want my daughter to make up her own mind when she is old enough, I also want to model what I believe is correct.

This is how I feel. I am an atheist. My kids can believe in whatever they want but I'm not going to do something that doesn't sit well with me and feel inauthentic. While 2 is young to explain all this, given that you are in the position you are in (due to the preschool), I would still stick to my guns. Maybe you can clap along while she says it or something or say "I like hearing you say it"...

[California]

If she's only two, instead of fighting her on this your best bet is to come up with an alternative (as PP's have suggested) that you both are OK with.

Two year olds love songs. That may be an easy way to sway her over to something different.

My family is a mix of beliefs. My kids also came home wanting to say grace. We have a moment of thanks, similar to what a PP mentioned. So sweet to hear what my three year old is thinking: She folds her hands like she does at school and says, "I love my family. I love my friends. I love that we spend time together. I love that we have dinner together." It's my daily reminder to simplify as a parent. All she needs are these basics to be happy!

With our mix of beliefs, and frequent meals with extended family and friends, it was important to me to come up with something inclusive and comfortable. Sharing a moment of gratitude meets these goals. Our atheists friends say something they are thankful for. Our Christian friends say something about God. Usually it's a very warm and loving way to start a meal.

[Philly Mom]

I went to sleep away camp for 8 weeks every summer. Most of the campers were Jewish (including me) and most of the staff was not. We sang Grace before every meal including the one you mentioned. Even though most of the campers were Jewish, and it was not the type of songs that Jews would sing, we all sang along with gusto. It signaled the beginning of a meal, not something religious. They truly were just songs to the campers who loved to sing.

[roseyloxs]

No, I don't think you should say it if you don't believe in it. I think its a great lesson to learn. We are Catholic so we do say grace at the table but I don't make my children do it. DS at first would make it known that he had no interest in saying Grace with us and I told him that's completely fine. No one should ever make someone else pray or make someone feel bad for choosing not to.

I think you are modeling excellent behavior for her and how to treat others when they believe in something different.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

:yeahthat: It's not like she is saying she believes in God and wants you to as well. At this point it's no different for her than singing any little song. They do it at school, teach it at school and she wants Mommy and Daddy to join in. She's not trying to evangelize you. And if you did give in, you aren't establishing a pattern of giving in to her tantrums. She wont remember this event as she is too young. And giving in to her little song doesn't make a statement about your religious beliefs. At this age, she doesnt' even know what religion means. At this point in her life, it's all about play. Nothing more serious than that.

:yeahthat: i'd have to agree with this. it'd be one thing if it was something she happened to hear by a playmate or something and you did not want to introduce the concept of saying grace, but you are sending her to a religious school (where this is said all the time), so i think trying to explain why you won't sing it is just too confusing at that age, IMO.

at 2.5yo my DS asks me all.the.time to sing songs to him. random old-school Thomas songs that talk about how one train is so vain or rude or something or another. of course i don't really see the point of some songs and but i sing them bc he loves Thomas and just likes to be sung to. same thing with books. i freaking hate reading Dr. Seuss sometimes, and i'm get bothered with the silliness and gibberish in the books and often wonder if some things said will confuse him....but i just read them bc that's what he wants to hear. I think it's the same kind of thing, at least in this point in a 2yo's mind. of course i don't give in to whatever he wants and i do tell him mommy's tired, or it's time for bed when i dont' feel like singing/reading to him anymore.

[buddyleebaby]

I would probably say something like "Mommy doesn't say grace before meals, but I like that you learned something at school and I'd like to hear you say it" and leave it at that.
And I would sit quietly while she recited and smile when she was done.


It may just be abother little rhyme to her...but honestly if my son demanded I sing the eensy weensy spider with him before we eat, I'd say no to that, too.

[VClute]

I just want to point out that the reason religious preschools exist is to proselytize. If you like all the "academic" aspects of the school, just keep in mind that those are only offered in the greater mission of saving souls.

I like the PPs suggestion of coming up with a way to "bless" the meal without praising/thanking a god.

[BabyBearsMom]

I just want to point out that the reason religious preschools exist is to proselytize. If you like all the "academic" aspects of the school, just keep in mind that those are only offered in the greater mission of saving souls.

I like the PPs suggestion of coming up with a way to "bless" the meal without praising/thanking a god.

It's not actually a religious preschool. They aren't affiliated with a church or a religion. They just say grace. I asked the director about it when I signed up and she assured me that it is the only religious activity they do. She just thinks of it as manners, the same way that they insist that the children drink out of cups and use forks and knives. It isn't what I consider manners but so be it. I really do not care at all that my DD is doing it. I think it is harmless. I just don't want to say something that I don't believe. I actually think it is disrespectful for me to say it because I wouldn't mean it and it is important/meaningful to so many other people.

[PunkyBoo]

When Punkin was a baby someone gave me a book called "Saying Grace: Blessings for theFamily Table." We thought it was a nice tradition to read a different blessing each night before dinner. Some are religious some are not. Some are pretty some are poetic and some are very funny. But I think it gives our kids a nice impression that it doesn't matter how you say it as long as you are thankful for the life you have. Maybe you could try that.

[bisous]

What a variety of opinions! I stand with crl and twinfoxes. I like buddyleebaby's response as well.

For me, I think it comes down to how strongly you feel about religion. I know many people mentioned that she's only two so it is not "that big of a deal" but to me religion IS a big deal (I am religious) and because of that, prayer is precious and important to me and hence, worth enforcing even in a very small child.

OP, I say examine how you feel about it and stay true to yourself. I think some kindness, creativity and patience and your DD will be fine with whatever you decide!

ETA: "Enforcing" as listed above means more keeping consistent with your convictions.

[crl]

To be clear, I would not stop my child from saying grace in these circumstances. To me that is quite different from allowing my child to dictate what I say. I often refuse to say things my two year old wants me to say--for example when I refuse to play peek a boo for the twentieth time in a row. Since this involves religious beliefs I would be even more adamant in my refusal to allow my two year old to coerce me into saying grace. I think it's very developmentally appropriate for two year olds to try to control their environment, including the people around them. I also think it is appropriate as a parent to set limits on how much I allow my two year to control me. And this is an instance where I would stand my ground.

Finding a distraction or an alternative saying seem like good ideas to me. I would probably try them out. But if they didn't work, I would not give in to avoid a tantrum.

Catherine

[JustMe]

I agree that you don't have to say it if you don't feel comfortable, and you have gotten some good ideas about how to handle that.

I would only add that there are a lot of things that will be different btwn home and school. I have found that kids can learn You do X at school, we do Y at home; they are initially confused at such a young age, but they do get it and usually adapt quite well.

[Green_Tea]

Just wanted to add that my kids attended a non-reliogiously affiliated preschool and they said grace, so thats not unusual. Lots of preschools use "grace" as a way to cue a transition to eating and paying attention to their food.

I like the idea of a "blessing" that doesn't mention God. We have said this in the past:

We are thankful for the food we eat,
We are thankful for the friends we meet.
We are thankful for the birds that sing,
We are thankful for everything.

(Sometimes we add "Rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub! Yay mom/dad (whoever cooked the meal)!"

Otherwise I'd hold my ground and encourage DD to say what she wants but don't join in.

:hug:

[Corie]

I wouldn't go to the mat with a two year old about saying grace - at six maybe a but two, no way. Especially since you have put her in a school where that is a major (meaning every day) feature. It is not like she heard it once and wanted to do it, she is being exposed to saying grace daily by her teachers (adults, authority figures) and is young and impressionable and too little to debate or understand religious or lack of religious beliefs. I would keep letting her know it isn't what you believe but think of an alternative besides totally refusing since she's two and this stuff is complicated. And you knew going in she would be indoctrinated to some degree.



Yes, I totally agree with you!!