Is it fair for your spouse to tell you not to be friends with someone?

[BeachBum]

My husband is not comfortable with me having a male friend that I do stuff with one on one and he gave me an ultimatum about ending the friendship.

I did it.
But I feel really angry with my husband.

Just looking for thoughts on the subject.

[boogiemomz]

I guess I would need more information. Would he have a problem with any male friend? Or is there something particularly about this friendship that makes him uncomfortable? FWIW, I can see my DH having a problem with me having a male friend that I do things 1:1 with, unless the friend somehow clearly had no potential for romantic interest (ex. gay). Maybe there's some insecurity there, but I would still want to respect his wishes in that case, as I would hope he would for me.

[BabyBearsMom]

I think it is fair for him to tell you he is uncomfortable with the friendship but not fair for him to give you an ultimatum about it.

It's funny because if my DH told me he was uncomfortable with one of my friendships but didn't give me an ultimatum, I would end the friendship immediately and not resent him at all. But if he gave me an ultimatum I would be upset. I guess I would just want it to be my decision.

[BillK]

That's tough. For me - I wouldn't like it if my wife were hanging out with a guy that wasn't me (the exceptions being my 3 best buddies - all whom are married and all who's wives are also friends of ours). Not sure what I'd do so I'm sorry I'm not much help but just giving my thoughts as a husband. My gut reaction would to be ask her not to.

[boogiemomz]

I think it is fair for him to tell you he is uncomfortable with the friendship but not fair for him to give you an ultimatum about it.

It's funny because if my DH told me he was uncomfortable with one of my friendships but didn't give me an ultimatum, I would end the friendship immediately and not resent him at all. But if he gave me an ultimatum I would be upset. I guess I would just want it to be my decision.

:yeahthat: Well put.

[Giantbear]

It really depends on the circumstances of the friendship. My wife has several male friends from before she met me, and i have no problem when she talks to them or does activities with them, but it is in part because she new them prior to me and in part that she does not speak with them frequently or see them alone more than once or twice a year. I think if it were more of a close relationship, it would bother me.

It may not be fair, but having a close intimate (not sexually) relationship with a member of the opposite sex is seen as a threat and some would say it is emotional cheating. Have that same exact relationship with a member of the same sex, and it is considered ok.

I don't like ultimatums unless they deal with real life altering subjects, but if he views this friendship as a threat to the marriage, and he feels you were ignoring or belittling his concerns, then maybe he viewed this as a real life altering subject.

Were the situations reversed and he had the exact relationship with a female, how would you feel?

[crl]

Absent more information, I am sure my dh would not ask me to end a friendship just because my friend was a guy. I think it is a bit odd (for lack of a better word) to say you need to end the friendship--is there some reason he couldn't ask instead that you not do things one on one if that makes him uncomfortable? I guess I just can't see any reason all three of you couldn't hang out? Or that you couldn't see your friend in group settings? That just seems more reasonable to me.

Catherine

[hillview]

I think more info is necessary. It would depend on the situation. Random you cannot have a male friend where boundaries are in tact etc, not reasonable. Guy who doesn't seem to have boundaries, seems more reasonable. Guy you find attractive, also might be more ok. What kind of stuff do you do together?

[megs4413]

yes, I think it's perfectly fair.

[brittone2]

Does he have issues when you are in contact with male coworkers, etc....any jealousy that has cropped up about things like that?

Does he have an issue with this friend in particular, or do you think he dislikes any and all friendships with men?

I can see scenarios where I think it would be appropriate to tell your spouse that you are uncomfortable with the friendship, and I think there are other scenarios where I'd feel like my spouse was overstepping if he gave me an ultimatum to end the friendship.

There are scenarios where I'd feel concerned if my DH was regularly hanging out one on one with a woman. I'd like to say it wouldn't bother me, but I think there are times it definitely would, if I'm being honest. I think it would be okay to express that, and I think it would be okay for DH to do the same. (eta: neither of us has a pattern of jealous type behavior, so if he felt concerned, I guess I'd feel like I should honor that and at least figure out if there was a way I could continue the relationship without causing DH undue concern.

[TwinFoxes]

I think it is fair for him to tell you he is uncomfortable with the friendship but not fair for him to give you an ultimatum about it.

It's funny because if my DH told me he was uncomfortable with one of my friendships but didn't give me an ultimatum, I would end the friendship immediately and not resent him at all. But if he gave me an ultimatum I would be upset. I guess I would just want it to be my decision.


Absent more information, I am sure my dh would not ask me to end a friendship just because my friend was a guy. I think it is a bit odd (for lack of a better word) to say you need to end the friendship--is there some reason he couldn't ask instead that you not do things one on one if that makes him uncomfortable? I guess I just can't see any reason all three of you couldn't hang out? Or that you couldn't see your friend in group settings? That just seems more reasonable to me.

Catherine

Yeah that to both. End it or else seems so extreme. Did he ask you before and you refused? Is it just this guy, or all guys? Does he have reason to be concerned? (Not saying you're doing anything, but through his eyes can you see why he's concerned?)

So many questions, not the least of which is what was the ultimatum. Literally end it or we're through? I'd be beyond shocked if my DH ever said that.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

My husband is not comfortable with me having a male friend that I do stuff with one on one and he gave me an ultimatum about ending the friendship.


Why do you need to end the friendship? Was it not possible to all be friends together? I actually quite a few male friends (happens when you are an electrical engineer ;)), but I always include my husband when we have get togethers on the weekend and we've all become friends.

I do go to lunch with my friends, but honestly, I am more comfortable if I lunch with more than 1 male friend. Also, my DH is always welcome to join us if he'd like.

[wellyes]

No, I would not be OK with that, I would take it as a sign of mistrust.

[Moneypenny]

I think it is fair for him to tell you he is uncomfortable with the friendship but not fair for him to give you an ultimatum about it.

That's where I land on this one. I can't imagine one grown adult telling another grown adult who they can be friends with. If, for example, DH had a friend he always got drunk with and did stupid things with, I'd tell DH that I didn't care for his behavior when with that friend, but I wouldn't forbid the friendship. I would certainly hope DH would work to find a way to reconcile his behavior with the feelings I've expressed about it.

[buddyleebaby]

Ideally, my husband should be able to tell me if he is uncomfortable with something.

He is not the jealous type. He does not have trust issues. For him to tell me he wanted me to end a friendship, something would have to be seriously bothering him, and whether his concern/discomfort was warranted or not, the fact that he chose to express those feelings to me would be enough to make me take notice.

Whether or not that's "fair", I don't know. But he's the love of my life and the father of my children and working out any issues between us (real or imagined) would be a hundred times more important than a casual friendship with another person.

[maestramommy]

Ideally, my husband should be able to tell me if he is uncomfortable with something.

He is not the jealous type. He does not have trust issues. For him to tell me he wanted me to end a friendship, something would have to be seriously bothering him, and whether his concern/discomfort was warranted or not, the fact that he chose to express those feelings to me would be enough to make me take notice.

Whether or not that's "fair", I don't know. But he's the love of my life and the father of my children and working out any issues between us (real or imagined) would be a hundred times more important than a casual friendship with another person.

Wow, Alicia said it so well. The only thing I'll add is that I'm having a hard time imagining a male friend that I would do one to one stuff with on a regular basis. It was one thing when I was single, but nowadays if I had time for that I'd want to spend it with Dh. Okay, maybe that's not fair because it's just my preference. But it's where I'm coming from.

[crl]

Wow, Alicia said it so well. The only thing I'll add is that I'm having a hard time imagining a male friend that I would do one to one stuff with on a regular basis. It was one thing when I was single, but nowadays if I had time for that I'd want to spend it with Dh. Okay, maybe that's not fair because it's just my preference. But it's where I'm coming from.

Oh I can totally picture this. I don't have any male friends except for friends' husbands and I don't see any of them one on one except by accident (I go over to see if their three year old wants to play with my two year old and wife is out, but husband is home and we go ahead and have the kids play). But if one of the dads on the street was the stay at home parent? I'm sure we'd be walking the kids to the park together and so one, just like I do with the moms. Or conversely if dh had a female friend who was into fly fishing or bike riding. Well, I am not into those things. I will do them, but they aren't my interests. So I could totally see him going fishing or on rides with a female friend.

Catherine

[codex57]

My husband is not comfortable with me having a male friend that I do stuff with one on one and he gave me an ultimatum about ending the friendship.

I did it.
But I feel really angry with my husband.

Just looking for thoughts on the subject.

I guess it's happened to me, so it's the flip side.

I am friends with one of my ex's. Not close. Particularly now, cuz she was a high school g/f. But, DW felt uncomfortable with me still talking to her (even tho we're both married now, etc). So, she asked me to end the friendship. Obviously, it annoyed me a little that she didn't trust me so to speak, but whatever. As my wife, ultimately, hers is the relationship I should weigh the most. Granted, I dunno how close the OP is with this friend, but I wasn't super close with the ex. I'd say we were just on friendly terms and might speak once every few years.

[Snow mom]

In the situation you describe it's hard for me to assess, but yes, I do think it's okay to dictate to a certain extent who a spouse can be friends with. DH has friends from before we were together who could never be even close to civil to me. It's a complete mystery to me as I never really spent any time with them but they hated me from the get go. I made it clear early on that if they couldn't be civil he couldn't both be friends with them and in a relationship with me. He chose me. I don't feel the least bit bad about ending those friendships and shudder to think of having to have dealt with them throughout our relationship.

[wellyes]

In the situation you describe it's hard for me to assess, but yes, I do think it's okay to dictate to a certain extent who a spouse can be friends with. DH has friends from before we were together who could never be even close to civil to me. It's a complete mystery to me as I never really spent any time with them but they hated me from the get go. I made it clear early on that if they couldn't be civil he couldn't both be friends with them and in a relationship with me. He chose me. I don't feel the least bit bad about ending those friendships and shudder to think of having to have dealt with them throughout our relationship.
Oh, I think that is different. Setting terms and boundaries early on is entirely appropriate. And no one should want to be friends with someone who is openly rude to his girlfriend/spouse.


He is not the jealous type. He does not have trust issues. For him to tell me he wanted me to end a friendship, something would have to be seriously bothering him, and whether his concern/discomfort was warranted or not, the fact that he chose to express those feelings to me would be enough to make me take notice.I think everyone would agree with that. Every spouse has a right to have, and voice, an opinion about the other one's friends. It's more the ultimatum that would bother me. BUT if my DH said "I wish you weren't friends with that person" I would take that very, very seriously, and respectfully.

[ABO Mama]

Were the situations reversed and he had the exact relationship with a female, how would you feel?

:yeahthat:

[elliput]

I've always been very open minded with regards to mixed gender friendships- I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that my mom's BFF is a guy who has been a family friend for 35 or so years.

I do think it is unfair of your DH to demand that you end the friendship, especially if he has not presented you with any explanation as to why. He needs to be honest and open with you if he believes your friendship with another man is in any way interfering with your marriage relationship, and "because he is a guy" doesn't count as a legitimate reason.

[California]

I do think spouses should be able to say that they are not comfortable with a friendship. If his spidey signal is going off, then maybe he's noticing something you are not. What is this friendship like?

[bisous]

You know, this is so tough to answer for a lot of reasons.

I hate ultimatums and don't respond well to someone saying, "You HAVE to do x, y, z"

But at the same time, I cannot imagine doing activities one on one with another guy. I would feel really uncomfortable so I can't truly put myself in your shoes--I wouldn't be there.

If DH ever had any request about another friend of mine, male or female I can easily say I would drop that friend like a ton of bricks. Despite our difficulties (and we've had them in the past couple of years for sure) I prefer his company to anyone I know.

It wouldn't even be a sacrifice for me. I hope you and DH can work it out.

[ahisma]

I don't like ultimatums at all.

That aside, I think it's reasonable for him to ask you to end the contact IF his reason for asking you to end the contact is reasonable.

My DH and I just chatted about this - we were both on the same page. Nothing wrong with friendships w/ opposite sex and doing things together, but if it crossed the line of okay (i.e. if there was flirtation, ulterior motives, etc.) then it should end.

[dec756]

yes, if there is a valid reason and he is looking out for your best interest.

[KLD313]

No, not if he's asking based on his own insecurities or being jealous.

[lalasmama]

Ideally, my husband should be able to tell me if he is uncomfortable with something.

He is not the jealous type. He does not have trust issues. For him to tell me he wanted me to end a friendship, something would have to be seriously bothering him, and whether his concern/discomfort was warranted or not, the fact that he chose to express those feelings to me would be enough to make me take notice.

Whether or not that's "fair", I don't know. But he's the love of my life and the father of my children and working out any issues between us (real or imagined) would be a hundred times more important than a casual friendship with another person.

:yeahthat:

Early on with SO, he stayed friends with the ex immediately before me. He told me that part of his reason for the break-up was because she refused to be affectionate at all, and that she was, overall, more of an "activity partner" than a future partner. I let it go, as best as I could... until we broke up and that's who he started dating immediately. 14 months later, they broke up again (over the same issues), and when he expected to be able to be coming around here again, he and I had a lengthy and very uncomfortable talk about limits.... He understands and respects my feelings on the matter, and hasn't talked to her since I made my feelings clear.

Like Alicia said, if he's the love of my life (and vice versa), we should put their concerns (real or imagined!) above those of a casual friendship.

However, I'm not fond at all of ultimatums.

[dogmom]

Apparently I am the only one whose answer is, No, it is not OK.

That is unless you are currently having, or in danger of having, an affair with this person.

[elliput]

Apparently I am the only one whose answer is, No, it is not OK.

That is unless you are currently having, or in danger of having, an affair with this person.

Not the only one, I just did not phrase it so plainly.

[kijip]

I would take my husband's advice if he felt like there was something odd about a new male in my life. In fact, in a more professional relationship that was developing into a friendship my husband did say hold up. He did not give me an ultimatum, he just shared that he thought this man was interested in me sexually and he was right. I immediately shut down our contact to the bare minimum required by work.

However, if he gave me an ultimatum to stop seeing my best friend (male) or old male friends, none of whom I have ever dated, I would say hells to the no and our butts would be in counseling. I would be very offended, especially because the idea of being involved sexually with my best friend is as gross to me as being involved with my brothers. The way I see it, if something were going to have happened there, it would have sometime before I even met my husband and it definitely did not. We have been friends for almost 20 years, I would be very lost without that connection. Besides if my husband was threatened by cross gender friendships we never would have gotten married in the first place.

[cntrymoon2]

yes, I think it's perfectly fair.

:yeahthat: I agree. And I would also think its fair for you to ask him to end a relationship with a female friend that he was doing one on one activities with and that you perhaps feel got a little too close.

I agree with other PPs that ultimatums are difficult to deal with but I think your husband has to be your first priority. He is the one you chose to build a life and family with, and his needs and feelings need to be more important than any casual acquaintance. I also agree that perhaps he is seeing something you're not seeing.

[LexyLou]

I think you really need to ask yourself honestly, Is there a valid reason for your DH to feel he way he feels?

Sometimes we can get caught up in a feeling someone other than our spouse gives us. It doesn't mean we crossed "the" line, but we do get something from this person that we aren't getting from our spouse.

Maybe you need to take a step back and really look at your friendship and your relationship and re-evaluate.

If this guys truly is just a friend, then you really need to sit down with your DH and talk about why he feels so threatened and why he shouldn't be.

DH and I both have friends of the opposite sex, but we see them occasionally and we all know each other and feel comfortable with each other. He goes to lunch with some ex-coworkers but he'll see them once every 6 months and a lot is to network. If he met the same woman every day for lunch then red flags would go up for me, personally.

It may not be the fact that you have a male friend, but the fact that you spend so much time with him that is upsetting your DH.

[mommylamb]

Apparently I am the only one whose answer is, No, it is not OK.

That is unless you are currently having, or in danger of having, an affair with this person.

:yeahthat: Honestly, it would really bother me if DH told me not to be friends with a male friend. and if he said he was uncomfortable with a friendship I had, I would want to really explore with him why that was before doing anything. Obviously, if there are legitimate reasons for the uncomfortable feeling (you are attracted to the guy and flirt with him, or he always hits on you, or speaks badly to you about your DH), that's one thing, and in that case I'd want to end the friendship. But since none of those things are part of my friendships with men, I would feel the need to really work with my DH on trust issues if he had those sorts of feelings. FTR, neither of us is jealous. We both have friends of the opposite sex. Neither of us has ever even considered ending those friendships.

[Raidra]

There's a really interesting book that talks about the slippery slope with opposite-sex friendships. It's called Not 'Just' Friends, by Shirley Glass (Ira's mother!). It does talk a lot about affairs, obviously, but the information it gives on how women are having way more affairs than they used to because women are out of the house, working with men, or 'allowed' to have friendships with men nowadays - well, it's really interesting.

A lot of the time, people with friends of the opposite sex are getting validation and attention that they should be and possibly aren't getting from their spouse. It doesn't *have* to be sexual, but if they're not getting that attention and validation in their marriage, but feel especially valued by their friend (yes, even if it's platonic) - then there's a problem.

And when we're receiving validation and attention of any sort, we're less likely to notice anything remotely inappropriate. It often takes someone outside of the friendship to say, "Hey, wait a sec" - and it can be difficult to accept that there's something inappropriate about the friendship.

But honestly, if you value your marriage, you *have* to put your spouse's concerns first in this situation, whether they're founded or not. Nobody likes ultimatums, but refusing to end a friendship that concerns your spouse is bad for both of you. Yes, it's important to have a long, honest talk about what's going on, what your satisfaction levels are within your marriage, what you're getting out of the friendship and why it's valuable to you, etc. But you really have to respect your spouse's wishes on this one.

It's different in a same-sex friendship, but even there, I think your spouse has some rights to request backing off if the friend isn't a 'friend of the marriage'. Some people are easily influenced, and if a friend is causing you to alter your values and your behavior, then a talk needs to happen then, too.

It's all about priorities.

[wellyes]

There's a really interesting book that talks about the slippery slope with opposite-sex friendships. It's called Not 'Just' Friends, by Shirley Glass (Ira's mother!). It does talk a lot about affairs, obviously, but the information it gives on how women are having way more affairs than they used to because women are out of the house, working with men, or 'allowed' to have friendships with men nowadays - well, it's really interesting.

A lot of the time, people with friends of the opposite sex are getting validation and attention that they should be and possibly aren't getting from their spouse. It doesn't *have* to be sexual, but if they're not getting that attention and validation in their marriage, but feel especially valued by their friend (yes, even if it's platonic) - then there's a problem.

And when we're receiving validation and attention of any sort, we're less likely to notice anything remotely inappropriate. It often takes someone outside of the friendship to say, "Hey, wait a sec" - and it can be difficult to accept that there's something inappropriate about the friendship.

But honestly, if you value your marriage, you *have* to put your spouse's concerns first in this situation, whether they're founded or not. Nobody likes ultimatums, but refusing to end a friendship that concerns your spouse is bad for both of you. Yes, it's important to have a long, honest talk about what's going on, what your satisfaction levels are within your marriage, what you're getting out of the friendship and why it's valuable to you, etc. But you really have to respect your spouse's wishes on this one.

It's different in a same-sex friendship, but even there, I think your spouse has some rights to request backing off if the friend isn't a 'friend of the marriage'. Some people are easily influenced, and if a friend is causing you to alter your values and your behavior, then a talk needs to happen then, too.

It's all about priorities.

My response to that is, if there is a problem with your marriage and you respond to it by cheating? You are an awful person, or at least a person who made a terrible mistake.

I am fully prepared to own problems in my marriage, the things I do that are less than ideal can have consequences. But if those consequences = cheating, hell with that. I absolve myself. There are so many options an unhappy spouse has instead of cheating. Try to fix it, try to fix yourself, take steps towards leaving. Cheating is unacceptable full stop. Also, if you are influenced by outside forces to alter your behavoir to the degree of committing infidelity - that is a sign of a much deeper problem. Not in the marriage, but in yourself (generic "you").

Having said that, of course you have to respect your spouse's wishes. I think everyone would agree on that. But setting ultimatums and forbidding outside relationships is a hallmark of a controlling spouse, to me. It would be a red flag of a problem more so than an outside friendship.

[crl]

One of the things I think is interesting about this discussion is the underlying assumption that all parties are straight. I think many people are bi. Does that mean they don't get to have any friends?

Catherine

[mommylamb]

There's a really interesting book that talks about the slippery slope with opposite-sex friendships. It's called Not 'Just' Friends, by Shirley Glass (Ira's mother!). It does talk a lot about affairs, obviously, but the information it gives on how women are having way more affairs than they used to because women are out of the house, working with men, or 'allowed' to have friendships with men nowadays - well, it's really interesting.

A lot of the time, people with friends of the opposite sex are getting validation and attention that they should be and possibly aren't getting from their spouse. It doesn't *have* to be sexual, but if they're not getting that attention and validation in their marriage, but feel especially valued by their friend (yes, even if it's platonic) - then there's a problem.

And when we're receiving validation and attention of any sort, we're less likely to notice anything remotely inappropriate. It often takes someone outside of the friendship to say, "Hey, wait a sec" - and it can be difficult to accept that there's something inappropriate about the friendship.

But honestly, if you value your marriage, you *have* to put your spouse's concerns first in this situation, whether they're founded or not. Nobody likes ultimatums, but refusing to end a friendship that concerns your spouse is bad for both of you. Yes, it's important to have a long, honest talk about what's going on, what your satisfaction levels are within your marriage, what you're getting out of the friendship and why it's valuable to you, etc. But you really have to respect your spouse's wishes on this one.

It's different in a same-sex friendship, but even there, I think your spouse has some rights to request backing off if the friend isn't a 'friend of the marriage'. Some people are easily influenced, and if a friend is causing you to alter your values and your behavior, then a talk needs to happen then, too.

It's all about priorities.

I'm sorry, but this sounds like a handbook for spousal abuse-- how to totally isolate one's spouse so they are entirely dependent on an abuser.

I also just don't think you should expect that ever facet of your existence should be satisfied by your spouse. I love DH to death, would never cheat on him, and I think we have an extremely healthy marriage, but there are other people in my life. I'm not sure what you mean about "bringing validation or attention" but, sure, why not have that??

[TwinFoxes]

I'm not sure what you mean about "bringing validation or attention" but, sure, why not have that??

That one lost me a bit too. Don't all friends validate you in some way and give you attention?

[katydid1971]

I'm sorry, but this sounds like a handbook for spousal abuse-- how to totally isolate one's spouse so they are entirely dependent on an abuser.

I also just don't think you should expect that ever facet of your existence should be satisfied by your spouse. I love DH to death, would never cheat on him, and I think we have an extremely healthy marriage, but there are other people in my life. I'm not sure what you mean about "bringing validation or attention" but, sure, why not have that??

I totally disagree, she didn't say lose all friendships just those that are toxic to the marriage. I had a friend who was going through a divorce and whenever I got together with her she needed to tell my everything that was wrong with my DH. Misery loves company and I truly felt like she was looking to hurt my marriage (I don't think all people going through divorce are like this, just her). I ended the relationship, I am not isolated from other friends. I don't think that DH would ever cheat on me but I would have trouble if DH had a female friend he did stuff with one on one.

[dcmom2b3]

I'm sorry, but this sounds like a handbook for spousal abuse-- how to totally isolate one's spouse so they are entirely dependent on an abuser.

I have to agree. In my experience -- that of someone who was isolated and abused by a mentally ill husband -- this was my first red flag. It started with my "objectionable" friendships with gay men I'd known for years. While I might have been a hottie back then, I certainly wasn't converting gay men to straight! I've been on the other side of the equation, too. Recently found out that a college boyfriend had a child with his "just a friend" female friend while we were dating. Never occurred to me to issue an utltimatum, I trusted him. (Needless to say, I'm a bad picker!)

That's not to say that all concerns about opposite-sex friendships are indicative of a problem on the part of the concerned party. But, with apologies for being blunt, ultimately, to me, it says that something's amiss in the relationship and/or its participants. The degree of the problem may vary from small to life-threatening, but there's a problem nonetheless.

[mmommy]

In my relationship an ultimatum would not be ok. I would expect DH to tell me if he had an objection to one of my friends, but I would expect a conversation, not an ultimatum. I am his spouse, not his child.

I don't care for one of DH's female friends, A. I told DH why I don't like A because I wanted him to stop asking me to spend my precious social time with her. He heard me out and remained friends with A himself. A few weeks later his friend, B, told him she was surprised I let him spend time with A. He told B, and later me, that he really heard my objections to A and that since that conversation he has noticed more of A's annoying behaviors and is less interested in spending time with her...in the end perhaps the friendship will fizzle out, and if it does he won't blame me for it. And if it doesn't I'm ok with that too as long as I don't have to spend time with her. :ROTFLMAO:

[KpbS]

:yeahthat: I agree. And I would also think its fair for you to ask him to end a relationship with a female friend that he was doing one on one activities with and that you perhaps feel got a little too close.

I agree with other PPs that ultimatums are difficult to deal with but I think your husband has to be your first priority. He is the one you chose to build a life and family with, and his needs and feelings need to be more important than any casual acquaintance. I also agree that perhaps he is seeing something you're not seeing.

:yeahthat:
Ultimatums are hard to dealt with but without knowing anything about your marriage, perhaps your marriage has some preexisting difficutlies and if there are other problem areas, I think you especially need to end this relationship and focus on your marriage and friendship with DH, in and outside of counseling.

[ZeeBaby]

I am waiting for OP to come with more information. I don't like the sounds of the ultimatum, but before I weigh in, I really need to understand her DH's basis for why this friend is objectionable.

[hillview]

I am waiting for OP to come with more information. I don't like the sounds of the ultimatum, but before I weigh in, I really need to understand her DH's basis for why this friend is objectionable.

:yeahthat:
I weighed in but :yeahthat:

[niccig]

I agree that it depends on the situation. Is there a reason to object to the friendship or not. DH asked me to back off a friendship with another mother. She is very high drama and needs and it was bleeding into our lives too much. I did distance myself (I was really busy) and with that distance I could see that the friendship wasn't healthy for me and I put boundaries on it.

So w/o knowing why the DH objects or the nature of the friendship, I can't say if it is fair or not.

[larig]

I don't think it's okay to give an ultimatum.

[queenmama]

It really depends on the circumstances. We need background info.

My DH is totally not the jealous, insecure type, so if he were to give me an ultimatum it wouldn't be without a valid reason. So it is unfair for some of you to claim that this is controlling or borderline abusive (and this is coming from an EXTREMELY rebellious and defiant girl! I loathe being told what/what not to do).

Maybe she spends too much time with friend, maybe there's a history of infidelity, maybe the friend is in the "friend zone," etc. We can't assume anything.

[Corie]

It really depends on the circumstances. We need background info.

My DH is totally not the jealous, insecure type, so if he were to give me an ultimatum it wouldn't be without a valid reason. So it is unfair for some of you to claim that this is controlling or borderline abusive (and this is coming from an EXTREMELY rebellious and defiant girl! I loathe being told what/what not to do).

Maybe she spends too much time with friend, maybe there's a history of infidelity, maybe the friend is in the "friend zone," etc. We can't assume anything.

I completely agree with you!! Especially the part that I bolded!

[Giantbear]

Ok, here is a follow up question. Many have stated that they would want to hear their spouses objection to the relationship and, if it was legitimate, would then end the friendship. My question is, what is your definition of legitimate??

[SnuggleBuggles]

Ok, here is a follow up question. Many have stated that they would want to hear their spouses objection to the relationship and, if it was legitimate, would then end the friendship. My question is, what is your definition of legitimate??

Back in college, I could totally tell that a girl had the hots for my now dh. I voiced my concerns and he thought I was being jealous and overreacting. Yea rs later he confessed that she made a play for him not that long after I told him that. Sometimes you just know when something is off from the outsider.

[kijip]

Ok, here is a follow up question. Many have stated that they would want to hear their spouses objection to the relationship and, if it was legitimate, would then end the friendship. My question is, what is your definition of legitimate??

Well, I am a bit of a prude. I also am used to having male friends. I am not necessarily quick to realize when someone is seeing me in a sexual light. Ie, I thought there was this really helpful dude at the print shop who did a ton of extra work for me and gave me discounts and squeezed my jobs in on rush because he was just really nice. Then the guy asked me for dinner. Not a big deal, because you don't really get intimate in that setting- I declined and it was fine, he understood I was married, and I kept using that print shop without any hard feelings. Just an example of cluelessness (he didn't realize I was married, I didn't clue into him crushing on me.)

So as a "please be careful and don't see this person when you don't need to" example: my husband noticed way before I did that a male colleague was attracted to me and that there was a definite possibility of a reciprocal spark there. When he framed it like that, I realized I needed to throw up big boundaries with this colleague and I could not treat him the same way as my platonic male friends or see him socially like I would have a friend.

[TwinFoxes]

Ok, here is a follow up question. Many have stated that they would want to hear their spouses objection to the relationship and, if it was legitimate, would then end the friendship. My question is, what is your definition of legitimate??

For me, it is the fact that my DH isn't the jealous type. If he told me there was something off about one guy, I'd tend to listen to him. I had many colleagues who were friends who I traveled with in very close situations for long stretches of time. He never had issues with them. So if he told me "that dude's not right" I'd listen, because there's a chance I wouldn't see it. But he wouldn't just randomly issue an ultimatum. If it was just "no guy friends for you" that's not legit. Of course we wouldn't be married...

[Raidra]

One of the things I'm having a hard time with here, with the people who are saying that asking your wife not to hang out with a guy friend is wrong.. is this: doesn't the husband have a right to feel that way? Doesn't he have the right to say, "Look, our marriage is really important to me, and I don't feel comfortable with what you're doing. I need this, and if you can't put this need of mine above your friendship, then I really question how much of a priority I am in your life."

I mean.. my personal issues aside, if I had a need that was extremely important to me, enough that I would make an ultimatum.. and my husband says, "Nah, I don't want you to control me." Wow. That would be a huge problem.

And to clarify the attention/validation thing.. yes, all friends validate us and give us attention. But if an opposite-sex friend is giving you attention and validation that you should be receiving only from your spouse, then you're on a slippery slope. Not saying that everyone on that slope will have an affair, but even if it comes down to just being attached enough that you don't want to give up the friendship to reassure your spouse, then that's crossing a line, too. Of course there are going to be other people in your life even if you're married, but you can't ignore that.

I think a lot of people misunderstand people who cheat. Yes, there are people who are total jerks, have no values, and cheat. And there are people who get sucked into an affair very slowly, without ever realizing what's going on until it's too late. The whole slowly-boiling pot thing. You have a friend at work who validates you, gives you attention, is sympathetic, etc. You turn to them for support, and they turn to you for support. You enjoy their company, you start spending more and more time with them. And it just goes down from there, and before you know it, you're in too deep.

FWIW, this is not what happened with my husband, but now that infidelity is in my life and I'm in support groups and seeing therapists and reading gads of information.. that sort of affair is ridiculously common. It's not that someone's such scum that they don't ever value their marriage commitments, they don't ever intend to cheat, it's just that each little tiny baby step in that direction seems so insignificant that they don't even notice when they start crossing lines.

I'm all for being independent in your relationship, having your own friends and your own social life. I would never want anyone to be in a controlling relationship or socially isolated. But when it comes to a situation that does actually threaten the marriage, then you need to take it seriously.

[TwinFoxes]

I'm sorry, I just disagree. I don't see baby steps leading to sex. That's a HUMONGOUS step. For me, even if I'm super close with a guy friend, I'd never ever take that last step into the abyss. But maybe that's just me.

ETA: I think my experiences are just so different I can't relate. My DH is my #1 supporter. I can't imagine some of these scenarios where I was not getting emotional fulfillment from him and him issuing ultimatums. Like other people have said, I think there are issues other than the one guy.

[MontrealMum]

There's a really interesting book that talks about the slippery slope with opposite-sex friendships. It's called Not 'Just' Friends, by Shirley Glass (Ira's mother!). It does talk a lot about affairs, obviously, but the information it gives on how women are having way more affairs than they used to because women are out of the house, working with men, or 'allowed' to have friendships with men nowadays - well, it's really interesting.
.
Honestly, affairs are nothing new. Although being able to prove that a child is someone else's biologically is. I don't know who Shirley Glass is - or Ira either for that matter - but as someone trained as a social historian, trust me, people have been having affairs for years. This is not a modern phenomenon. I also wonder what instrument of measurement the author is using because it's not like people are ticking a box on the census or something.


My response to that is, if there is a problem with your marriage and you respond to it by cheating? You are an awful person, or at least a person who made a terrible mistake.

I am fully prepared to own problems in my marriage, the things I do that are less than ideal can have consequences. But if those consequences = cheating, hell with that. I absolve myself. There are so many options an unhappy spouse has instead of cheating. Try to fix it, try to fix yourself, take steps towards leaving. Cheating is unacceptable full stop. Also, if you are influenced by outside forces to alter your behavoir to the degree of committing infidelity - that is a sign of a much deeper problem. Not in the marriage, but in yourself (generic "you").

Having said that, of course you have to respect your spouse's wishes. I think everyone would agree on that. But setting ultimatums and forbidding outside relationships is a hallmark of a controlling spouse, to me. It would be a red flag of a problem more so than an outside friendship.

:yeahthat:


I am waiting for OP to come with more information. I don't like the sounds of the ultimatum, but before I weigh in, I really need to understand her DH's basis for why this friend is objectionable.

:yeahthat: I think it's really hard for most of us to truly offer opinions w/o more of the story.


One of the things I'm having a hard time with here, with the people who are saying that asking your wife not to hang out with a guy friend is wrong.. is this: doesn't the husband have a right to feel that way? Doesn't he have the right to say, "Look, our marriage is really important to me, and I don't feel comfortable with what you're doing. I need this, and if you can't put this need of mine above your friendship, then I really question how much of a priority I am in your life."

Plainly put, no, he doesn't IMHO. I am a person. I also happen to be married. I do not believe that my marriage should be put above my own wants and needs as a person...one of which is friendship. With those who are not my husband. Is my marriage important? Yes, of course it is and my DH and I work very hard on it. But there is no way I'd want to live in a manner in which I was totally and completely defined by my marriage and my DH. And honestly, neither would he.

Until the OP comes back and tells us that this is more than just a simple friendship, that there is a history of cheating or some other red flag, then I think that it is extremely selfish and manipulative of any spouse to issue an ultimatum to their partner to give up a friendship just "because". And since the OP has not elaborated I'm not jumping the gun to read that a simple friendship is a threat to a stable marriage.

[magnoliaparadise]

A close friend, "B", was on the other side of this equation. Her (new at the time) husband had had an off and on relationship with another woman (I'll call her T) before he married my friend. T is super cute.

When they got married, B's new husband kept seeing T - He swore they were just friends and he is a guy that everyone knows has many female friends. I happen to know T and actually believe that they never had an affair once Husband married B. T had her own life, had a man she was in love with by then, etc. But she did value B's Husband's friendship.

My friend B told her husband, less than 3 months after they got married, that she wanted him to end his relationship with T. Husband refused. My friend B tried to 'join' their friendship, which was hard and she didn't feel good about trying all the time. My friend B then found out that Husband had bought a trinket for T and not told B. The trinket was tiny, but the not telling bothered my friend B. My friend B then said that she was going to divorce Husband if he didn't stop his friendship with T. Husband stopped seeing T. Apparently, their marriage was on the brink of divorce over this less than 6 months into the marriage.

To my knowledge, Husband never saw T again. I recently ran into T in a party and in the context of something else, she mentioned that she and B's Husband lost touch.

I always thought it was interesting how fiercely B protected herself and forbade Husband from seeing T. I think I would not have done that, but the fact that Husband bought the trinket would upset me and made me anxious and jealous, so it's good that she did, in my book.

[kijip]

One of the things I'm having a hard time with here, with the people who are saying that asking your wife not to hang out with a guy friend is wrong.. is this: doesn't the husband have a right to feel that way? Doesn't he have the right to say, "Look, our marriage is really important to me, and I don't feel comfortable with what you're doing. I need this, and if you can't put this need of mine above your friendship, then I really question how much of a priority I am in your life."

I mean.. my personal issues aside, if I had a need that was extremely important to me, enough that I would make an ultimatum.. and my husband says, "Nah, I don't want you to control me." Wow. That would be a huge problem.

And to clarify the attention/validation thing.. yes, all friends validate us and give us attention. But if an opposite-sex friend is giving you attention and validation that you should be receiving only from your spouse, then you're on a slippery slope. Not saying that everyone on that slope will have an affair, but even if it comes down to just being attached enough that you don't want to give up the friendship to reassure your spouse, then that's crossing a line, too. Of course there are going to be other people in your life even if you're married, but you can't ignore that.

I think a lot of people misunderstand people who cheat. Yes, there are people who are total jerks, have no values, and cheat. And there are people who get sucked into an affair very slowly, without ever realizing what's going on until it's too late. The whole slowly-boiling pot thing. You have a friend at work who validates you, gives you attention, is sympathetic, etc. You turn to them for support, and they turn to you for support. You enjoy their company, you start spending more and more time with them.

I see why people have affairs or can incrementally work up to that point. But it is a huge leap from friends to sex. For some friends, the relationship is more like sibling. I just could not. E involved with my best friend. He is like my brother and while very nice and decently attractive, the idea is comical. Maybe because I have never had a casual sexual relationship, I can't even fathom what I would have to be doing and thinking to have an affair.

I would not have married a man who was uncomfortable with my close male friends, 1 in particular. Is my best friend more important than my spouse? Not at all. But the trust of my spouse is more important to me than just about anything . I would take J being jealous of my friend just because he is male as a huge insult. I don't buy into this idea that my spouse has to be my best friend and only emotional connection. J is so much MORE than a friend, best or not. It is a whole different thing, and much more powerful than a friendship. What I get from my friend is not in conflict with what I get from my marriage because the two relationships are so radically different.

I also think that a spouse can discuss an issue without trying to restrict who someone sees or do something as dysfunctional as an ultimatum. In my colleague example, my husband expressed his discomfort and he communicated directly with me about something he knows I tend to be a lite blind about. He didn't tell me to stop seeing the person, but to be aware and he certainly didn't tell me to quit my job so I would never see the person again.

[maestramommy]

I'm wondering if/when OP is going to come back and post more info, if that's possible? We are all weighing in with our opinions but without any context, I think.

[sewarsh]

I didn't read any responses.
I want to preface my post by saying i am NOT a jealous person at all and neither is DH. We are very social people with lots of friends.

That said, I would not feel comfortable with DH doing things one-on-one with another woman assuming it was happening often. If it was once in awhile - say once a month, than I wouldn't care.

It goes back to that old argument...can men and women just be friends? I honestly think No. I think there will always be some sexual chemistry to one or the other, not necessarily both.

One thing that struck me though was that you used the word Ultimatum. What exactly is an Ultimatum when you are married? "Don't hang out with him or we'll get divorced"? THats probably more concerning to me.

[hillview]

I think Raidra has a point. I think people who find themselves in situations that are risky may do things in the moment that they would not have planned to do. I also agree that someone outside the marriage may have ulterior motives that the married person may be oblivious to. DH is generally clueless about what other people are thinking or feeling (really, he is a scientist and it just isn't a core competency). I generally have a good sense of what people are thinking but I've been caught off guard by male advances before as well.

All that to say that in a healthy functional relationship if a spouse says hey I think that guy/girl who you are spending solo time with has the hots for you and I don't think spending solo time with him/her is healthy for our relationship. Oh and by the way perhaps we should go see a couples counselor to make sure our relationship is on track. I think that is a good thing.

[liamsmom]

In my relationship an ultimatum would not be ok. I would expect DH to tell me if he had an objection to one of my friends, but I would expect a conversation, not an ultimatum. I am his spouse, not his child.


:yeahthat: Times 1000. Especially the part I bolded.

It IS perfectly normal to be jealous or insecure. They are feelings that everyone experiences, whether they are rational or not. What isn't ok, IMO or in my marriage at least, is issuing "orders" and telling a partner to not to see someone. Even if this outside friend is no friend to the marriage, I think the person with the friendship has to really see that for him/herself in order to decide what is best. Issuing ultimatums isn't friendly to the marriage either.

While I agree that we don't have a lot of specific info, I think the word "Ultimatum" set off a lot of spidey senses. It did for me too.

[janine]

I would say it is ok (and actually important) to verbalize that you are not comfortable with the relationship, for whatever (reasonable) reasons, and then leave at that. Hopefully the DH/DW then gets the message and scales back out of respect for their spouse.

However having a big confrontation, ultimatums, continually harping on it is probably going to have a negative effect. It may just mean the "relationship" becomes more secretive which is worse.

If the spouse does not take any action, then it would be an issue.

[dogmom]

One of the things I'm having a hard time with here, with the people who are saying that asking your wife not to hang out with a guy friend is wrong.. is this: doesn't the husband have a right to feel that way? Doesn't he have the right to say, "Look, our marriage is really important to me, and I don't feel comfortable with what you're doing. I need this, and if you can't put this need of mine above your friendship, then I really question how much of a priority I am in your life."



I think what you outlined above is a favor to your spouse. The OP said was:

"My husband is not comfortable with me having a male friend that I do stuff with one on one and he gave me an ultimatum about ending the friendship."

That is very different that the conversation you outlined above. Generally I think you can feel anyway you like, but to give an ultimatum is different. I also know if my DH made a request like you outlined I sure the heck would dig into the statement "I really question much of a priority I am in your life." Because you know, that's the problem. I can stop being friends with some ex-boyfriend I see occasionally. But if my DH thinks that when I'm having sex with him it's like I'm checking something off on my to-do list vs. appearing all fun and flirtatious when I see and ex, the problem is only half fixed by not seeing some male friend. There a a huge list of things that my husband and I do for each other due to the quirks in our life. It's been more than a decade since I had freaking homemade fried chicken because my DH dose not like meat on a bone and does really like chicken, damn him at times!

Seriously, if either one of use said something like, "Just do this for me," it would probably be done, but that's because we know in our hearts the other would do it for them. And it would always be a favor, not an ultimatum. And that would be the first step in attending to each other in a way that had probably been neglected for too long. As far as these things leading to affairs, that is a whole bag of things where only one piece is being friends with the opposite sex. In fact, many affairs I now I would not describe the adulteries as "friends."

However, I also can see the conversation you listed as a major point in a manipulative/controlling relationship. So just because someone says something like that too you does not mean it is OK. Context, context, context. If those types of requests happen all the time, on some topic, some form, I also think that is unfair and not OK.

I just can't shake the feeling that some people are drawing a straight line from affairs to this request. I understand they share the same territory, but I really feel like saying it's OK to give an ultimatum to prevent marital infidelity is like supporting breeds specific dog regulation that bans pit bulls dogs. It doesn't address the problem of dog fighting, bad owners or the fact the most common dog in bites is a Lab not a Pit. It punishes innocent dogs, and it makes people feel like they have addressed the problem and can then go on with their lives and ignore the basic problem. In the case of this topic, that something is wrong in that marriage. Clearly the OP just resents her husband now, that is not real protective for long term marriage fidelity.

Of course I given the caveat in the first post, "Unless you are, or thinking of, having and affair with the friend in question." In which case the better request from the spouse is "are you having an affair?" In which case the answer is yes that you are or a wake up call that you are about to and you should damn well volunteer to end the relationship.

[BabyBearsMom]

Wow, Alicia said it so well. The only thing I'll add is that I'm having a hard time imagining a male friend that I would do one to one stuff with on a regular basis. It was one thing when I was single, but nowadays if I had time for that I'd want to spend it with Dh. Okay, maybe that's not fair because it's just my preference. But it's where I'm coming from.

I have a male coworker who is my friend. We are the only people who work here who are in the same age range and we both have similarly aged kids. We don't see each other outside of work but we do have lunch together 2 or 3 times a week. I'm not attracted to him and he is not attracted to me (as far as I know). He is like a brother to me. My DH isn't jealous of our lunches at all and typically jokes with the guy when he sees them about how he is my work husband and what a high maintenance wife I am.

[maestramommy]

I have a male coworker who is my friend. We are the only people who work here who are in the same age range and we both have similarly aged kids. We don't see each other outside of work but we do have lunch together 2 or 3 times a week. I'm not attracted to him and he is not attracted to me (as far as I know). He is like a brother to me. My DH isn't jealous of our lunches at all and typically jokes with the guy when he sees them about how he is my work husband and what a high maintenance wife I am.

Ehhh, I think that is a little different. You're still at work in my mind. it's different from you wanting to go out to dinner with him one on one after work or on weekends.

[BeachBum]

OP here.
Wow. This got a lot of responses--thank you. It gives me a lot to think about and digest.

I hadn't really planned to give all the details here and there are so many I don't think I can, but since so many people responded I feel a bit of an obligation to give some background :)

DH and I have not been in a good spot lately. This is primarily due to the fact that DH is an alcoholic and newly (a few months) in recovery. We are kind of both learning how to relate to each other again. I am still dealing with hurts from living with an alcoholic. (That said, I didn't realize he was an alcoholic for years. He was an alone drinker and really big into hiding it from me).
The male friend in question is also an alcoholic. We were friends 20 years ago in HS, and I knew he had an addiction problem (he has been in recovery a while). I reached out to him after not connecting with anyone at al-anon or being able to talk to my "real" friends.
Our new friendship has been brief--only a few weeks of talking/ seeing each other. But in someways it has been emotionally intense since we immediately started sharing personal stuff in our talks about alcoholism. He has given me some good advice on dealing with DH and some real encouragement about being patient. As for doing things one on one, I don't work and he is currently unemployed so we have had coffee etc during the day. In some ways this friendship has been a little bit awkward in that we don't have natural things to talk about (kids and family). That said, I will admit that I have enjoyed spending time with someone that only knows me as ME, not as wife or mom.

My husband has been very insecure as of late, and in a misguided attempt to protect him I wasn't totally transparent about my relationship with male friend. Of course, this made things a million times worse. Yeah, that was really dumb.

Anyway, I was extremely hurt and angry that he immediately went into extreme reaction mode about male friend. I felt like we could have come to some agreement about it. I had tried to introduce him to male friend but he has stepped out of the office when we came by. I can understand the points about DH being the most important and not wanting to continue a relationship that hurt him. But on the other hand I feel like after all these years of being together I deserve some leeway and respect about the company I keep. I do not like being bossed around and the ultimatum (Call him right now and tell him never to contact you again. It's him or me) just sent me reeling.
I think it particularly stung bc I feel like I need and deserve some support for dealing with DHs issue and I feel like he took away my only sounding board.
DH never asked why I wanted to be friends with male friend, what we talked about, etc etc. I just feel really hurt this was response.
We've never had even a hint of infidelity in our relationship, so I was just really taken aback.

Anyway, DH and I obviously have some things to talk about...and we have somewhat since I originally posted.

[Globetrotter]

Tough one. I read your second post and now it makes sense. I think you are all in a vulnerable position so I can see why dh feels threatened. Under normal circumstances I would hope he trusts you, but he is going through a difficult process and you say things have naturally been touchy of late so he was threatened that you didn't mention this friendship.

When the marriage is a little unstable (through no fault of your own) it is not a great time to introduce a new male friend who fills an emotional void. Could you try to connect with someone else in al-anon? Sorry, normally I would agree with you, but in this case I don't know if it's worth it to pursue this friendship.

[firstbaby]

OP, I just had to post and send you lots of hugs. It sounds like a difficult situation all the way around.

[katydid1971]

Tough one. I read your second post and now it makes sense. I think you are all in a vulnerable position so I can see why dh feels threatened. Under normal circumstances I would hope he trusts you, but he is going through a difficult process and you say things have naturally been touchy of late so he was threatened that you didn't mention this friendship.

When the marriage is a little unstable (through no fault of your own) it is not a great time to introduce a new male friend who fills an emotional void. Could you try to connect with someone else in al-anon? Sorry, normally I would agree with you, but in this case I don't know if it's worth it to pursue this friendship.
:yeahthat:

[cntrymoon2]

:yeahthat:
I totally agree with Globetrotter. Even though it's through no fault of your own, your marriage isn't in a secure place right now. I hate the way your husband approached this with you- I think it's mean and it would turn me off, too... BUT, I see his point, and I think he is also in a difficult place right now.

[MamaInMarch]

Are you and your DH in counseling? I was incredibly ignorant of alcoholism and how far reaching it is, how it can destroy more than I ever imagined and how much work, work, work and more work it is to recover and heal. And how dangerously shaky sobriety is for a significant period of time.

I am sorry you are going though this. It is da*n hard. Your DH shouldn't have issued you an ultimatum certainly. And you absolutely deserve support in dealing with the fallout of this disease. But I completely agree with Globetrotter that "when the marriage is a little unstable (through no fault of your own) it is not a great time to introduce a new male friend who fills an emotional void. Could you try to connect with someone else in al-anon? Sorry, normally I would agree with you, but in this case I don't know if it's worth it to pursue this friendship. "

[justlearning]

I haven't read any responses except for your second post and the few after that. I can see why you'd be hurt by your DH's reaction, especially after what you've had to go through in supporting him.

However, I do want to share with you that the topic of my dissertation was extramarital affairs, specifically those that begin as emotional affairs. One pattern I found was that many affairs began when one person was seeking marital advice. Thus, the relationship seemed innocent--one person was trying to help the other improve his/her marriage--but the intimacy of those conversations led them to begin feeling strongly about each other. Factor in other things like feeling better about one's self with that person than with the spouse, and it's easy to see how that friendship can turn into an emotional affair. And once that happens, the marital relationship can start to seem even worse in comparison to this great extramarital relationship.

So, if you truly want to work on your marriage, I'd encourage you to stop having any contact with your male friend before your feelings escalate. If you find that hard to do, it should be a red flag that you're already becoming emotionally invested in that relationship. Work on finding female friends--perhaps in discussion forums--who can provide you with the support you need.

Don't mean to come off preachy here but after spending a year studying extramarital affairs and their devastating effects, I would definitely recommend erring on the side of caution (ie., not having any close male friends--especially if not completely satisfied in the marriage--instead of gambling on whether or not you can truly stay "just friends"). Hugs...

[queenmama]

I agree with all of that. ^

[dogmom]

Maybe I've dealt with too many addicts in my chosen profession, but I just want to smack my forehead and go "Oy!" Addiction, by definition, is an act of narcissism. So the whole ultimatum with your new friend just strikes me with such hypocrisy. Most addicts I know would throw this back in your face at some point no matter what you did to justify their behavior. My concern would be that to reach out to an opposite sex recovering (I’m assuming recovering?) addict is not such a good idea for you. It will be human nature and very tempting to get involved with this emotionally supportive new friend because, once again, and addict can't be emotionally supportive. I would try to reach out to some more Al-Anon sources, or find other supports. You need support from someone that has been on your side of the addiction fence, not your husbands. You have a hard road ahead, I wish you the best. Feel free to ignore my advice, I tend to see hard core cases.

[Fairy]

Hi BeachBum. I have a different response now than I would have after reading your second post. It boils down to this, and others have already said it, but heck, here I am, too.

* I have never understood why males and females cannot be friends. Once you get married, those friendships don't end. Having a friend of the opposite sex does not innately pose a threat. Unstable relationships, jealousy, and insecurity pose a threat. I think it's unfair to be told you can't be friends with someone of the opposite sex.

* I have no probelm with ex's being friends and having lunches, either. Depends on the ex, the nature of the breakup, etc. Every situation is different.

* If I told my DH that he couldn't be friends with women, he'd have literally no social outlet when he was at work, which is out of town, and I'd be forcing him to be alone every day for four days straight. That's selfish of me, and I trust my DH. Until he gives me a reason not to.

* But. Your second post changes things. I see that you're in a delicate place. And I see the nature of this new friendship. I think your situation may be different. Ultimatums are almost never healthy, and so that's maybe a problem. But the concept of him wanting you not to be sharing with this person on a personal level I can possibly understand ... and it might not be the best choice for you, though for some other reasons than his, probably.

[wellyes]

OP: This is a really hard time for him- but for you, too. Good luck no matter what.

[Fairy]

I do think perspective and personal experience colors every opinion we have, but I think there are some inherrent flaws in some of the thinking below.


doesn't the husband have a right to feel that way? Doesn't he have the right to say, "Look, our marriage is really important to me, and I don't feel comfortable with what you're doing. I need this, and if you can't put this need of mine above your friendship, then I really question how much of a priority I am in your life."

This is avery general statement. In the context of does a husband have the RIGHT to feel any way, sure, we all have a right to our feelings. But is it HEALTHY for a person to tell their spouse that they have a problem with the concept of an opposite gender friend? No, I think it's not healthy. If there is a REASON for it, then that's different. The person has come on to you, they've made advances, they have unhealthy behaviors, etc. But if it's simply the concept of I'm your husband and, therefore, I'm the only man that gets to be in your life is inherrently insecure and selfish. If you don't have trust in your relationship, then you've got much bigger problems.


if I had a need that was extremely important to me, enough that I would make an ultimatum.. and my husband says, "Nah, I don't want you to control me." Wow. That would be a huge problem.


The key word here is "ultimatum." If an ultimatum is being engaged, then that's a symptom of a problem. I'm not putting my husband in the position of having an ultimatum. If i had a probelm with a friend of his -- or any behavior of any kind -- I'd talk it thru with him, and if we respect each other, we listen to each other, and an understanding is achieved. Ultimatums happen when compromise can't, and that's, again, a symptom of something, not the actual thing.


And to clarify the attention/validation thing.. yes, all friends validate us and give us attention. But if an opposite-sex friend is giving you attention and validation that you should be receiving only from your spouse, then you're on a slippery slope. Not saying that everyone on that slope will have an affair, but even if it comes down to just being attached enough that you don't want to give up the friendship to reassure your spouse, then that's crossing a line, too. Of course there are going to be other people in your life even if you're married, but you can't ignore that.


We might agree here in some measure. If you're reveiving attn/validation from ANY friend that is MISSING from your spouse or that should be RESERVED for just your spouse, then you've got a problem. but I also get attn/validation from my friends that overlaps with my spouse that are not inappropriate or should be reserved only for him. My husband likes my boobs. My girlfriends are enviouis of my boobs and will compliment me "that dress makes your boobs look great!" My male friends shouldn't make comments of that nature and don't, but if they noticed them and appreciated, wow, big boobs, I would assume that it's a natural part of the fact that my boobs are big and people notice, including random people I walk by on the street. It's NOT because they wanna do anything with my boobs, BUT, if they did, that would be a line that has been crossed, and that's attn/validation that is inappropriate from non-husbandly people in my life. Hope I delineated that out well.


I think a lot of people misunderstand people who cheat. Yes, there are people who are total jerks, have no values, and cheat. And there are people who get sucked into an affair very slowly, without ever realizing what's going on until it's too late. The whole slowly-boiling pot thing. You have a friend at work who validates you, gives you attention, is sympathetic, etc. You turn to them for support, and they turn to you for support. You enjoy their company, you start spending more and more time with them. And it just goes down from there, and before you know it, you're in too deep.


I agree with this statement, but I think it's mutually exclusive from the whole concept of having opposite gender friends. I don't judge infidelity because I'm not in that marriage. I don't know what's going on in that marriage. I don't know the basis for that marriage. I don't know that she's not a shrew that's emasculating him on a daily basis. I don't know that he's not a mysoginistic pig who beats her on a daily basis. I don't know. I don't presume to know. once I do, sure, I have an opinion, dont' we all? Utnil then, I try to just stay neutral and say none of my business.



As an aside, I'm interested to know if it's ok to be friends with same-gender gay people. Or is that not ok? I did a poll on this once. Long time ago, the board has turned over since then.

[Globetrotter]

OP, I also wanted to say I understand you are in a very tough situation yourself and have every right to need support. I'm sorry dh took that away from you, but in this case I do think it's for the best. I hope you're able to find other means of support. :hug:

[BeachBum]

I just wanted to say thanks for the understanding and support.

DH and I had a really good talk this morning. I think we both understand each other better...He apologized for the ultimatum, and for jumping to conclusions.
If I decide to remain friends with male friend I am going to make a real effort to include DH in the relationship, and be very aware of the possibility of an emotional affair.
Regardless of the comments here, I know that is not where I am currently---but I do think that acknowledging the possibility is important and a very fair question. I haven't decided how I intend to move forward, but for now I'm just letting things be.

Thanks again for the thoughtful remarks. It really did help me to see other sides of the situation and clarify my own feelings.

[megs4413]

I haven't read any responses except for your second post and the few after that. I can see why you'd be hurt by your DH's reaction, especially after what you've had to go through in supporting him.

However, I do want to share with you that the topic of my dissertation was extramarital affairs, specifically those that begin as emotional affairs. One pattern I found was that many affairs began when one person was seeking marital advice. Thus, the relationship seemed innocent--one person was trying to help the other improve his/her marriage--but the intimacy of those conversations led them to begin feeling strongly about each other. Factor in other things like feeling better about one's self with that person than with the spouse, and it's easy to see how that friendship can turn into an emotional affair. And once that happens, the marital relationship can start to seem even worse in comparison to this great extramarital relationship.

So, if you truly want to work on your marriage, I'd encourage you to stop having any contact with your male friend before your feelings escalate. If you find that hard to do, it should be a red flag that you're already becoming emotionally invested in that relationship. Work on finding female friends--perhaps in discussion forums--who can provide you with the support you need.

Don't mean to come off preachy here but after spending a year studying extramarital affairs and their devastating effects, I would definitely recommend erring on the side of caution (ie., not having any close male friends--especially if not completely satisfied in the marriage--instead of gambling on whether or not you can truly stay "just friends"). Hugs...

this, exactly. And honestly, I think you've already entered emotional affair territory. You tell this man things you wouldn't share with other friends, especially private things about your relationship with your spouse. And, you hid the relationship from your spouse. When confronted about it, you felt emotionally torn between this relationship and the relationship with your spouse. It's an emotional affair and you should end it before it gets worse.

[123LuckyMom]

I'm glad you're feeling better. DH and I have a rule. We just agreed we would not spend time alone with anyone of the opposite gender. We don't have private communications by phone or email or otherwise with people of the opposite gender. We are friends on each others Facebook pages (not that we use them often). We both came into the marriage with good friends of the opposite gender, and now I mostly communicate with his female friends on behalf of both of us. If I email a man, I cc DH and often the man's SO, too. It's not that we don't trust each other or ourselves, but it's just better to avoid the temptation entirely. If you don't have the potato chips in the house, you won't eat them, kwim? I would voluntarily change your relationship with your male friend. You already have the very best of friends in your spouse, and if you need to vent about him, do it with us or your female friends, never with a male friend. If you follow those rules, you will never have to worry about whether your communications are crossing a line.