Lance Armstrong

[wendibird22]

Lance Armstrong has decided to stop fighting against doping charges and in doing so is stripped of all of his titles. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lance-armstrong-gives-up-fight-against-usada--raising-questions-about-his-innocence-.html

So, what do you think? Is he a doper or not?

[KDsMommy]

I don't know if he is a doper or not, but I still like the guy.

[brittone2]

DH and I go back and forth on this all of the time. DH loves cycling, enjoys watching it, and for a looooong time believed Lance's POV. I've been rather skeptical. However, I do have mixed feelings about him being targeted without + testing.

On the flip side, look at athletes like Marion Jones who didn't test + for drugs (as far as I know she never tested +, but admitted to use when the BALCO thing hit), but were doping. MJ admitted it in her testimony.

I tend to think most cycling and track superstars are doping at this point. My POV is that the testing will tend to run behind the newest technologies in drugs and techniques for masking their use, which makes it tough to catch the athletes.

I don't single out cycling at all. I used to love to watch track, but the luster has really been taken off of it for me. IMO, as someone who loved distance running...it really is about you against yourself. How hard can a human being push himself/herself, and how far can we stretch the limitations of the human body...how hard can someone push themselves? But when you add drug use into it, eh...it isn't so impressive to me any more. I'm less concerned about the overall times in sprinters and stuff than I am about the story of how hard a human can push themselves *unaided* by drugs.

Over the last few months to a year, DH has moved toward thinking maybe Lance was doping. He really follows the news about it on cycling sites, which have a lot more coverage than the regular press. He seems to think we just can't know.

I don't think we can know, but I'm really, really skeptical that most of them aren't doping. I think the designer drugs and techniques to mask them are just ahead of the testing techniques.

(eta: I don't particularly like the way some of the agencies have handled things. I am not sure about relying on testimony from others that have something to gain from telling the story that Lance was doping. But, I don't know what the solution is because clearly it is possible to beat the testing...look at Marion Jones, for example.)

[daisymommy]

I like the guy, and want to believe he's innocent. I think he's just tired of the fighting and the witch hunt. At least I hope I'm right.

[Fairy]

They just don't make 'em like walter payton, mike singletary, michael jordan, martina navratalova, billie jean, orcal ripken anymore.

[lfp2n]

I think he was probably doing something, but at this point in time I think they should stop prosecuting backwards people who are retired and move forwards. At the time he won all the TDFs, all the cyclists were doing something- he is still an extraordinary athlete. And what's the point of stripping the titles, when the 2nd place was doping, the 3rd place was doping etc etc. Who do you give it to. In some cases the 2nd places people have already admitted to it now they are retired. I just think for the sake of the sport they need to focus on being strict and clean now and move on!

[hellokitty]

DH is a cyclist and avid fan of cycling in general. He believes that LA is a doper. We were watching TDF, and I was surprised the guys were guzzling water so much (and about the problem of having to pee), and he said, "it's to flush out the drugs." He said that they guys have to go overboard on hydration to try to flush out the drugs, so if/when they are testing it won't come up. FWIW, he thinks most competitive cyclists are dopers, not just LA.

[wendibird22]

I'm skeptical and voted yes. Something about the guy has always irked me. I admit that I know nothing about cycling. I guess I'm of the opinion that when there is a rumor there's usually a kernel of truth in there somewhere. I think of some other pro athletes that have denied, denied, denied, and then later admitted or got caught (A-Rod, Canseco, etc). Several people have accused Armstrong of doping, and perhaps I'm misinformed, but I don't see how those individuals really stand to gain much personally by doing so. They aren't going to get his titles, they aren't going to get his $$$$ endorsements, and they aren't going to get his fame (because really, how many other cyclists are that famous). All they get is a bit of face time and notoriety in the press and when there's so much Armstrong love out there do you really want to be known as the person who is trying to take down the sweetheart of cycling?

Yup, I'm a skeptic.

[maylips]

I voted yes.

I think it's great he overcame cancer, but to get back to that level of competition after all he had been through physically is almost TOO amazing.

Plus, if *I* was truly innocent (and my entire career/income/endorsements/public opinion) was based on whether or not this was cleared or not, I would fight, fight, fight until the end. The fact that he's given up tells me he is guilty and can't prove otherwise.

(I also read years ago that he turned into a real d-bag once he got really famous and he left his wife and kids, essentially because he had turned big time and didn't want her along for the ride. True or not, that always stuck with me too.)

[arivecchi]

I don't know for sure, but I tend to think not. The entire thing seems like a huge waste of time though. Like the PP said, just move on and deal with the people currently in the sport. If this were costing me thousands of dollars in legal fees, I'd drop it too.

[roseyloxs]

I don't know why but I have never liked the guy. Once one of his team members came out as an eye witness to his doping I started to think he was probably guilty. His giving up the fight doesn't make me any more convinced though. Even if he were innocent I think you have to give up the fight at some point.

[SnuggleBuggles]

He doped, I bet. But it doesn't tarnish his successs to me. I bet his competitors those year's also did it. Doping was (is?) rampant in many sports.

[georgiegirl]

I've heard that most elite athletes in cycling and track are definitely doping and that we currently don't have the technology yet to find it out. Apparently there's big business in people coming up with ways for athletes to fool the drug tests. It is very sad that it has come to this.

[janine]

I don't know for sure, but I tend to think not. The entire thing seems like a huge waste of time though. Like the PP said, just move on and deal with the people currently in the sport. If this were costing me thousands of dollars in legal fees, I'd drop it too.

Really? But this is his entire legacy, his entire adult life career and everything that represents his name and brand. I can understnd not wanting an endless legal battle but this is his 7 titles and essentially the PR equivalent of admitting to being a doper, liar and cheater. It's hard not to equate this with an admission of guilt. Still all the public knows is it was teammates' testimony, not sure why he wouldn't fight that. Every test he took at the time was negative? Maybe they had some smoking gun..

[roseyloxs]

Really? But this is his entire legacy, his entire adult life career and everything that represents his name and brand. I can understnd not wanting an endless legal battle but this is his 7 titles and essentially the PR equivalent of admitting to being a doper, liar and cheater. It's hard not to equate this with an admission of guilt. Still all the public knows is it was teammates' testimony, not sure why he wouldn't fight that. Every test he took at the time was negative? Maybe they had some smoking gun..

I am not an LA fan but I find myself wanting to defend him here. How long should one fight? There is no new evidence of any kind so this is an essentially he said/he said case at this point. How long do go on repeating yourself? There is a question about whether the USADA has any right to take away his titles. Some say that US cycling or someone similar is the ultimate authority in this case. I don't know enough about cycling but I can understand feeling like a decade worth of fighting might just be all I could take, innocent or not.

[arivecchi]

Really? But this is his entire legacy, his entire adult life career and everything that represents his name and brand. I can understnd not wanting an endless legal battle but this is his 7 titles and essentially the PR equivalent of admitting to being a doper, liar and cheater. It's hard not to equate this with an admission of guilt. Still all the public knows is it was teammates' testimony, not sure why he wouldn't fight that. Every test he took at the time was negative? Maybe they had some smoking gun.. I don't see it as an admission at all. I see it as an admission that he is sick and tired of fighting this and paying huge legal bills. I honestly have not followed this story much, but I can imagine what his legal bills would be like and I would not endanger my financial well-being indefinitely.

[StantonHyde]

I don't know what he did. What ticks me off is the USADA. WHY are they spending all this time and money going after someone who is retired? They basically said they would drop charges if he chose not to arbitrate. But by his choosing not to arbitrate, the Cycling Federations see him as guilty so they will strip his medals. Now that's a f'd up whacko standard if I ever heard one. It is a witch hunt. Who supports USADA? Are my tax dollars paying for this???????

And if, at the time of racing, an athlete tested clean, then they are clean. You can't go back with better tests and say--oh look, they did this. Because then how long do you keep testing samples? This isn't a criminal court where using DNA can free or convict the right person. This is sport for crying out loud. Yes, it is a lot of money. But companies aren't going to go back to LA and say--pay us back the sponsorship. (Maybe they could, but I bet they don't)

Heck, the dirtiest sport is biathlon--I volunteered as a drug tester escort for an Olympic test event. I was amazed at hearing about all the drugs taken in that sport. But biathletes don't make a gazillion dollars so you don't see USADA going after them.

I think they need to redefine their mission and move forward.

[wellyes]

I don't know what he did. What ticks me off is the USADA. WHY are they spending all this time and money going after someone who is retired? They basically said they would drop charges if he chose not to arbitrate. But by his choosing not to arbitrate, the Cycling Federations see him as guilty so they will strip his medals. Now that's a f'd up whacko standard if I ever heard one. It is a witch hunt. Who supports USADA? Are my tax dollars paying for this???????
Many organizations gave him lots of money, and if he is stripped of his titles, they might be able to go back and reclaim the money. Today I heard the US Postal Service gave him and his foundation millions of dollars. If he is a cheat, perhaps it is fair to question that 'investment' and even seek a refund.

The question, morally, isn't "were they all doing it" but is "did he lie".

Personally, I don't follow the sport. My gym does have Lance Armstrong machines in my spinning room, so that is my only connection to him!!

Anyway, I am sure his great wealth from endorsements and products is the reason he's been targeted. And I think that is fair.

[speo]

I think the USADA wants to make the penalties so harsh even well past the event to hopefully stop athletes from taking drugs they know can't be tested now. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I can understand why they go backwards in time.

I avidly followed the TDF for most of Armstrongs wins. I loved it! But then the next year there were all of the problems with Floyd Landis and other doping problems with others. The sport was just ruined for me and I haven't watched it since. It is theorectically such a great sport. I believe that most elite cyclists are doping. I also believe that Armstrong is guilty and doped at least sometime and that is why he isn't continuing the fight. I believe they have some evidence. However, it doesn't seem that they have evidence for ALL 7 titles. I think they need specific evidence for each tour to strip the win. This does not seem to be the case. I don't understand why it is automatically that they strip 7 wins if they feel he doped. That is 7 years and maybe he didn't dope all 7 times?

[wellyes]

I think they need specific evidence for each tour to strip the win. This does not seem to be the case. I don't understand why it is automatically that they strip 7 wins if they feel he doped. That is 7 years and maybe he didn't dope all 7 times?

He disqualified himself from all titles by not denying any of the charges. Which - is smart, really. Now he can say he's innocent and these lies against him are unfair, and plenty of people believe him. If he was allowed to keep 6 wins and was found guilty of doping for the 7th, that would be worse for his reputation.

[elektra]

I guess the fact that his quotes are always about how he has never tested positive, not that he has never used performance enhancing drugs or done the blood transfusions makes me lean towards thinking he probably did dope at one point or another. It just reminds me of Marion Jones who always said the same thing- not "I have never doped" but instead "I have never tested positive" and of course the whole BALCO thing came out and she went down in a disgraced heap.
I don't see why the other athletes would be lying either when they say they knew of him doing it.
It is such a shame and disappointment to fans. I think there is a lot of pressure and they athletes feel like "everyone else is doing it" and so they feel disadvantaged when they don't.
I also think it's just rampant among elite athletes and that the masking techniques are ahead of the testing ones. I think most of the organizations/boards overseeing the sports just do not know how to handle it (USOC, Cycling Federation, etc.) and that sometimes the way they go about things (witch hunts etc.) doesn't do much for the actual problem.
If Lance Armstrong is completely innocent, it is horrible the way they have gone after him so long after the fact.

[o_mom]

I don't know for sure, but I tend to think not. The entire thing seems like a huge waste of time though. Like the PP said, just move on and deal with the people currently in the sport. If this were costing me thousands of dollars in legal fees, I'd drop it too.

I used to think this, but then looking at how they do testing for the Olympics now is interesting. The samples can be tested for eight years afterwards and medals stripped retroactively. I think it is actually a good thing because the testing will always lag behind the doping. Knowing that it will be eight years before you are in the clear might make someone think twice about it.

Kind of like the Penn State sanctions... current administrations/coaches/players are always weighing the short term benefit over the penalty if caught and the chances of getting caught. Make the choice easier with a larger penalty.

Current bikers are weighing how big the penalty will be if they dope now and to say - well, once you retire, we don't care if you doped - lets them think they might get away with it.

Now ask me if betting on baseball should keep you out of the Hall of Fame..... :p

[boolady]

If Lance Armstrong is completely innocent, it is horrible the way they have gone after him so long after the fact.

Is there a suspected reason that they would have done this? Is he no longer liked in the pro cycling community? I know nothing about pro cycling, I just think of Lance Armstrong as one of the people, if not the person, who brought such notoriety to and interest in the sport. I know several people here have mentioned that it seems like a witch hunt-- I'm just curious if there are politics behind that theory or why the sport would want to bring down its most famous personality.

[brittone2]

Is there a suspected reason that they would have done this? Is he no longer liked in the pro cycling community? I know nothing about pro cycling, I just think of Lance Armstrong as one of the people, if not the person, who brought such notoriety to and interest in the sport. I know several people here have mentioned that it seems like a witch hunt-- I'm just curious if there are politics behind that theory or why the sport would want to bring down its most famous personality.

DH could speak to this much better, and hopefully others here can as well. I know in the past there's been a feeling that the French or other international groups were trying to take him down. I don't know if that's partly because of his personality, his overwhelming success, or his attitude and interaction with others. eta: I only half listen to DH when this stuff comes up because he knows where I stand.

eta: I'll add some links:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-government-random-dope-control-tests-one-rider-lance-armstrong
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fbi-set-to-scrutinise-armstrong-hamilton-altercation
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/media-out-of-love-with-armstrong
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/open-mike-another-armstrong-accuser-sounds-off
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-responds-to-testing-times-1

[wellyes]

I believe the charges stem in part from accusations of his former teammates (several of whom were found guilty of doping). Apparently there are at least 10 who have expressed willingness to testify against him. Yikes. He has made a lot of enemies over the years. http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/lance-armstrong-will-not-fight-us-anti-doping-agency-charges-082312

Despite all that, and despite me thinking he is probably guilty, I do think he is an astonishingly dedicated and gifted athlete. I respect him. Cycling is an insanely grueling sport, and in that crowd of uber-athletes he earned his domination.

[lfp2n]

No he isnt very popular in the cycling community. My take is that everyone, I mean all the cyclists who were any good in the TDF were doing something in those years and that's just an accepted fact. I would hate to be in charge of picking the new first place for the 7 TDFs taken away- most of the people in the top positions have either been accused, or admitted to doping so its kind of pointless.

I guess its a good point, its the lying not the doping that's the problem here. I think a lot of other cyclists feel they've been hung out to dry for something that was accepted and expected in the sport- whereas Lance through his power and money has so far successfully fought this stuff.

Saying that, I love cycling and wish we could move forward and focus on todays riders who are much cleaner!

[klwa]

I don't know if he doped or not, but I don't believe he had a shot of winning this arbitration based on the biased things USADA has done. Therefore, I think he just said "Screw you" to the USADA & walked away.

[trcy]

I voted yes.

I think it's great he overcame cancer, but to get back to that level of competition after all he had been through physically is almost TOO amazing.

Plus, if *I* was truly innocent (and my entire career/income/endorsements/public opinion) was based on whether or not this was cleared or not, I would fight, fight, fight until the end. The fact that he's given up tells me he is guilty and can't prove otherwise.

(I also read years ago that he turned into a real d-bag once he got really famous and he left his wife and kids, essentially because he had turned big time and didn't want her along for the ride. True or not, that always stuck with me too.) :yeahthat:

[NewfieNat]

Thought this was interesting

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/if-armstrong-loses-7-tour-titles-who-gets-them-1.928086

[okinawama]

I don't know why but I have never liked the guy. Once one of his team members came out as an eye witness to his doping I started to think he was probably guilty.
:yeahthat:

[megs4413]

well, I don't think it's fair that other cyclists are getting reduced penalties in exchange for testifying against him. i think the fact that he's never had a dirty test is really all that should matter and i think they should leave him the heck alone already.

it honestly doesn't matter to me at this point whether or not he doped. he is no longer competing. move on, already.

[BigDog]

I have been following professional cycling since the Greg Lemond era, I was 8 yrs old... I'm 36 now! I know everything about the sport and have worked as a PR director in the cycling field.

Here's the thing: the USADA is a disgrace to begin with. They have no oversight and their business practices suck. However, I am not surprised with any of the allegations. They all dope. Everyone dopes. Even high school athletes are doping. Lance just has immaculate doctors. Even Hincapie (who is the closest thing to a brother to Lance) agreed to testify.

With that said though, there's no denying the champion he is for cancer patients and the role he has played in cancer research and fundraising, all of which began before he became a TDF victor. And frankly, that is worth way more than his collection of yellow jerseys. Additionally, guilty or innocent, what he has done for the sport of cycling (in the US) over the last 20 years is monumental.

[Fairy]

It absolutely matters to me to catch dopers, because having their times and records on the books is unfair to the people who don't dope. Now, according to a PP and others out there, everyone dopes. Well, I think that's inherrently unsportsmanlike and goes completely against the concept of being all you can be in a competitive sport. You have to do it cuz everyone else does it? Otherwise you can't compete? Well, then there's something wrong with the system, there. I think doping is wrong. If the USADA has their heads up their ass, then that's unfortunate, but it doesn't negate the fact that doping is wrong. Stripping him of his titles is one thing. Taking back the $$ he won is one thing. finding winners in his place will be hard if they're all doping. So, maybe it's all pointless. But proving that one is doping is something I think should continue so that enhancements to one's performance aren't necessary in order to continue to live up. Cuz right now people are trying to live up to a fantasy.

If he's never tested positive AND there's no evidence to support it otherwise, then they need to stop. But that's not the case, and it absolutely matters. I hope they catch him if he did, indeed, dope. Which I believe he did.