Update in #1: Tell me how to get over this...

[niccig]

Update.
Mama's instincts were right. I just got DS's results from speech therapy for phonemic awareness testing - ability to hear, identify and manipulate phonemes (speech sounds). Eg. c -a-t = cat. Replace the c with a p and what do you get? It's a fundamental step in learning how to read.

I learned about it in class during spring semester (I'm in grad school to be a SLP) and I raised it when DS started speech therapy at my college department in May. The semester was nearly over, so they worked on articulation (he has a lisp). This semester he has my friend as a clinician. We talked about my concerns re. his phonemic awareness and the reading struggles - it took him forever to learn his letter sounds, difficulty blending sounds into words, and how I had started a phonics program with him called Blended Phonics (old school phonic program) over the summer and he has shown progress with reading, so I wasn't as worried as things seemed to be clicking. She and her supervisor (one of my professors) decided to test him anyway. I was told that he did fine in the test - I took that as he was in normal range -no, he did fine as in he took the test fine. Note to self, don't ever tell a parent "he did fine" if just gave a test, wait until you score it before say if it was fine or not.

He's below normal range in phonemic awareness and especially has difficulty with blending phonemes. Everything I was seeing in him, came up on the test as an area of concern. I've been trying to work out why reading and spelling were so difficult for him - his language skills are above his age, amazing vocabulary, it just wasn't making sense.

His teacher last year and this year (same teacher) has a strong phonics program and I'd hate to guess where he would have scored w/o that instruction last year. Everything I've been doing with him has been right thing to do. He has improved since end of last year with reading and spelling, maybe some of it was developmental (the more you read the better your phonemic awareness gets), maybe some of it was my help.

Going forward, they'll work on it in speech therapy and I'll have things to do with him at home. He should make a lot of progress this year.

It's good to know I wasn't seeing things or worrying too much, or because he was a boy or there's a range of normal (he's below normal range by a bit).

_______________________________________


DS may not be as good in school as DH and I. I just found out DS isn't in the top reading, spelling or math group in his class. DH and I were when we were in school.

I'm type A and I'm good at academic school work (I don't have to study as much as others to learn the material) and I got a lot of recognition for my grades. DH was competitive and wanted to be top of his class. DS couldn't care less. He doesn't push himself and he's not in an academic school where you get pushed. It's developmental school, lots of hands on learning, project work.

I know being the top student doesn't mean anything in long run. He may excel in an area that I do not. I want him to enjoy learning and like school. I do though wonder if a) he isn't as book smart as DH and I and I don't know how we help him with studying or school work as this all came easy to DH and I so it's unfamiliar territory for us; or b) would he be challenged more in more academic school, but that could bring issues of pressure cooker environments, too much homework and competitiveness, and it could backfire if he can't deal with it or isn't as capable as others.

And I have to admit, I'm struggling with "What?! My kid isn't the smartest kid?" kind of attitude and I need to get past that asap.

[blisstwins]

I don't know, but I am dealing with this myself. Husband skipped grades and went to MIT, I went to magnet schools and have a PhD from an Ivy....my kids are the only ones in our circle who were not accepted into the G&T. I try to remind myself my feelings come from my insecurities not their failings, but I would be lying if I did not admit it is a struggle and I kind of hate myself for feeling disappointed. We have started to spend a lot more time with them doing extra academic work though. They do need to acquire strong skills and their school is not doing what the other schools are so we supplement. It is very hard.

[ahisma]

DD has never excelled at school. But...she has emerged as an amazing writer. Truly, I get emails about her writing ability almost weekly.

Hang in there.

Content and happy trumps all.

[niccig]

I don't know, but I am dealing with this myself. Husband skipped grades and went to MIT, I went to magnet schools and have a PhD from an Ivy....my kids are the only ones in our circle who were not accepted into the G&T. I try to remind myself my feelings come from my insecurities not their failings, but I would be lying if I did not admit it is a struggle and I kind of hate myself for feeling disappointed. We have started to spend a lot more time with them doing extra academic work though. They do need to acquire strong skills and their school is not doing what the other schools are so we supplement. It is very hard.

I know it's my insecurities. In my family academic achievement alone is recognized. But I don't want DS to only do well because he gets a reward for it, that's how I was raised. I do want the motivation to come internally.

I'm also doing some more academic work with DS. I know kids that have always been at his school and they're doing fine. Maybe DS just needs more help or more practice. I worked with him on his reading over the summer and it's improved greatly - not sure if it was my help of if things just clicked. His spelling has also been better since his reading has improved - he can sound out the words and work out the spelling.

I know he's smart, he comes up with these amazing ideas and teachers and other parents comment on it.

I know how easy school work came to me, even now in grad school I can memorize all the cranial nerves in much less time than my classmates. It's a huge advantage and something I wanted DS to have.

[niccig]

DD has never excelled at school. But...she has emerged as an amazing writer. Truly, I get emails about her writing ability almost weekly.

Hang in there.

Content and happy trumps all.

This will be mantra. I may have been valedictorian of my school, went to law school (it's undergrad in Australia) and I HATED it. College was not something I enjoyed and I didn't find out what I wanted to do career wise until 2 yrs ago. So I was academically smart, straight A's, but I was not content or happy.

Thanks. I'll keep reminding myself of this.

[mytwosons]

I try to remind myself my feelings come from my insecurities not their failings,

That is so profound. Thank you; I really needed to hear that and will be reminding myself of that whenever I start to worry about grades.

[karstmama]

nicci, my personal feeling is that a love of reading makes up for / encourages a love of learning. yes, he'll need the study skills if that's not his strong point, but if he loves reading and loves learning, to me that's more important than good grades for good grades' sake.

but i hear ya. ds is smart, but with his autistic traits i have no idea where he'll end up educationally. it's really hard not to know how the movie ends, but it's his movie, not mine.

[jenfromnj]

We're not there yet with DS, but I wanted to chime in that I know a bunch of people who were smart kids but average students as younger children, then began to excel as they approached/went through high school. My DH was like this--a totally average student in elementary, then got to HS, grew up a bit and got motivated, and graduated at the top of his class, got a scholarship to a great college, and had an almost 4.0 while there.

I have also come to realize more and more that academic success is so not a guarantee of success in real life. Some of the most successful people I know (both in terms of personal fulfillment/quality of life as well as financially) were not stellar students, but have done incredibly well as adults, whether by starting their own businesses, finding a niche in which they thrived, etc. I am hoping that I will be more than happy for DS to take that kind of path.

[brittone2]

My DH was an above average student in HS, had some maturity issues when he started college (read: had way too much fun for a year), but was not a top of the class kind of kid all through elementary and beyond. He was not part of the top math group, etc. but was like a step below that level. He did okay on his SATs, nothing stellar, but he wasn't really motivated, didn't know how to study, etc.

After a year of college, he got his grades up to transfer. After that, he became a stellar student in college, took 4 semesters or more of calculus (my point is that not being in the "top" math group was not an obstacle to that in his case at all), really connected with some courses and professors, majored in chem, was the top graduate in his major, received multiple awards at graduation, etc. Went on to be employed at a very desirable major employer (his professor's husband worked there and she highly recommended DH to him). He forged connections there, he was encouraged to go back for his PhD after really having some wonderful mentors, they wrote him amazing letters of recommendation, and went on to pursue his PhD in chem. He was offered a job at every employer he interviewed with, in addition to being offered a very desirable post doc position (only one he applied for). His not being in the top math group really didn't indicate his *potential* to handle advanced mathematics as an adult.

Oh, and fwiw, he failed chem in college not once but twice before he got his butt in gear and learned how to study (this was all from his first year before he transferred and later became a chem major). Even that on a transcript was really never an issue, as he owned it, always talked about what he learned from it, etc. So yes, my DH with a PhD in chem failed gen chem 2x in his youth ;)

He has never been the best standardized test taker, but he has always excelled in his studies, his research, etc. He has good people skills and a wonderful work ethic. Through the years we've seen a lot of very bright people lacking a work ethic or people skills, and they have struggled more in many cases. DH had to work hard and it took time to find his calling and tap into his real potential, but it didn't hold him back. I think he checked out of high school a bit because he wasn't adequately challenged, as he's very bright but never saw himself that way at the time.

[wellyes]

When I was pregnant with my 1st, my husband and I were talking about what we'd do if the screenings for our first child indicated an issue such as Down's Syndrome. The normal conversation and anxieties most parents have, especially where the mom is older. He said "Well, when it comes to kids, you get what you get". That really got to me to. It's so simple, but so true. The challenge of parenting isn't shaping your kids to be what you want, it's shaping yourself to be what your kids need.

[hellokitty]

Niccig,

I completely understand where you are coming from. DH and I both did well at school. DH is like you, never had to study much to get good grades, school came easy for him and he was probably bored a lot. I had to try harder, but I am a more competitive person, so had more self motivation to do well. So far, DS1 (3rd grade) is brilliant, BUT 3rd grade has been eye opening so far. They are not babied as much as they were in the lower grades and in this sink and swim situation, he is barely treading water and would have drown already if DH and I weren't micromanaging his schoolwork. I am sure his teacher is sick and tired of getting emails from me. He is NOT with the program, not organized, not interested in his school work. Yet, for his own very odd topics of his interest, he can rattle off a bunch of very complicated and impressive info and theories. His favorite book is a book that my brother read in college, and is an extremely atypical book for a young child, he started reading it in first grade... http://books.google.com/books/about/Wonderful_Life.html?id=SjpSkzjIzfsC

He is NOT interested in most of what they go over at school, and due to his very quirky personality (he is not a hoop jumper and peer pressure doesn't work, he marches to his own beat and is a loner at school), I'm finding that his grades are suffering, even though past teachers have been telling me since he was in preschool that he is gifted. We keep trying to explain to him that we know that he is smart, BUT he still needs to try to do well at the game of school in order to get to where he wants to be and to learn the basics. He's not keen at all about the hoop jumping, but while I agree that it sucks, it is still a part of life that he will have to learn, since he will have to do hoop jumping throughout life, like it or not. He's the type of kid that would probably thrive more in a homeschooling environment, so he can pursue his own interests with as much detail as possible more than focusing on rote academics. It's hard to watch a kid who is capable of so much, not excel by academic stds. I keep telling myself that he will be ok and even if he doesn't end up in some great career. His happiness is what is most important. However, I totally get where you are coming from. I came from a family where the only thing that mattered was academic achievement and it was such a toxic way to grow up. While I do not feel that academics are all that matter with my kids, it is still ingrained into me to the point where it bothers me when DS1's academic grades are not reflective of what he's capable of.

:hug: it is hard. It's funny, DS1 is IMO my smartest and also sweetest child, but I worry about him the most. He is also my most non-competitive child, his brothers are extremely competitive, everything is a race, eating, using the bathroom, getting dressed, etc.. My other two, while bright, aren't anywhere as quirky and brilliant as DS1, but I don't worry about them as much, since I know they will know how to play the game of school better than DS1 does. DS1 could really go far, but his lack of interest is the boring part of school will make things more difficult for him and knowing that is worrisome to us. Even my DH, who is pretty laid back worries about DS1 academically. I've actually considered pulling DS1 out to homeschool if needed. It doesn't help that his 3rd grade teacher this yr is a complete flake, I have never encountered such a scatter brained teacher before, which only complicates things when you have a scatterbrained student in her class.

[anonomom]

I'm afraid I don't have any advice, but I couldn't not post because I'm right there with you. DD1 is in first grade and while she's currently in the top reading group, she has NO motivation. She always tends to do the bare minimum to get by and it drives me NUTS!

I'm trying to do the same as you -- recognize that I can't control her and that she shouldn't be subject to my own quirks. All I can do right now is get her used to school routines and try to teach her good study skills so when and if she becomes motivated to do more, she will have the foundation in place.

ETA: I also hear you on the "what? My kid isn't the best?" realization. Hearing DD's kindy teacher categorize her as possibly ADD threw me for a huge loop last year. I spend weeks reeling internally. I'm mostly over it now (mostly), but it took a good long time to accept that my speshul, preshus snowflake was, well, not.

[georgiegirl]

He might be a late bloomer. Our family friends growing up were in this situation. They were both highly educated, and their daughter had trouble in school and was even held back a grade in elementary school. She never excelled academically. She ended up going to community college for two years and did super well there, transferred to Berkeley, went on to get a MLS from UCLA. Her brother was also similar in terms of very average achieving in grade school and high school, but now he's a very successful engineer. (He joined the coast guard or merchant marines).

[infomama]

Content and happy trumps all.
You got it sister. Unconditional.

[egoldber]

He is still really, really, really young. Kids all mature at very different rates. So you really cannot extrapolate from how he is now to how he will be when he is older.

Also, some people are never intrinsically motivated to learn things that are uninteresting to them and a lot of academic work is like this. My DH is like this. He has never and will never exert himself to learn things he doesn't like or finds dull. As a result, his grades were never great (and I mean close to failing, not just not all As). However, in his career he excels, because he is intrinsically motivated to learn about what he likes. But I think his parents almost had heart attacks before he finally made it through high school. ;)

So everyone is different and as parents we can really only do so much.

[sste]

I agree, you are at the beginning of an adventure of seeing all the gifts and interests of your DS, in areas academic and non-academic! It is natural to worry about him but it seems to me he has what everyone else is looking for and funding the therapy industry for - - the gift of happiness, enjoyment of life, good friendships and social skills.

I also agree with other posters that there is surprisingly little connection between extreme academic achievement and life happiness/financial success (honestly, I have seen it all in this respect and the very qualities that cause people to be high-achieving also typically cause them to never be content with whatever they have achieved - - in this sense and others, giftedness is most often a gift to the world who benefit from the discoveries, advances, economic growth of the "gifted." It is very often NOT a gift to the individual). I will say also as someone that works in higher ed most of the variance in academic achievement/career achievement is based on economic privilege followed by luck and then by motivation and hard work . . . native ability is shockingly low.

Nicci, have you looked into whether your DS could have some mild dyslexia or other learning style "differences" as we say these days. :) Oftentimes that accompanies some of the verbal/phonetic stuff you have described.

[ha98ed14]

No BTDT, but just sending you a hug! I was in Gate and DH teaches Gate. I know I will feel similarly if DD does not test into Gate, and I will be mad at myself for it. It's a a lot of worry for their future plus a dash of bruised ego. But school is and will be their "job" from now 'til their 21, and you want to be good at your job, so you figure they should want to be good at theirs. I think the problem is, as others have said, they aren't getting to pick their areas of interest. He may turn out to be an amazing XYZ, but until he learns the 3Rs, he can't get there. No kid can. So my no-BTDT-advice is, as long as he comes out being able to read for information, write a coherent paragraph, and do the grade-level math, he will have the tools to find his way. And most kids do learn those 3 things without being gifted.

Now I just have to remind myself of this after DD's PT conf. next week...

[niccig]

nicci, my personal feeling is that a love of reading makes up for / encourages a love of learning. yes, he'll need the study skills if that's not his strong point, but if he loves reading and loves learning, to me that's more important than good grades for good grades' sake.

but i hear ya. ds is smart, but with his autistic traits i have no idea where he'll end up educationally. it's really hard not to know how the movie ends, but it's his movie, not mine.

The love of reading isn't there yet. DS has struggled with reading, but it just seems to now be clicking. When you're learning the mechanics of reading it is slow and painful. We keep telling him that once it gets easier, and you can read more interesting books, reading is fun. I think we're getting to that point now.

You are right, it's their movie not ours!

[niccig]

He has good people skills and a wonderful work ethic. Through the years we've seen a lot of very bright people lacking a work ethic or people skills, and they have struggled more in many cases.

This is true. I've seen it too. DS definitely has people skills. Work ethic we're working on. It does not help that both his parents didn't have it growing up, as things were easy for us, so we never applied ourselves. DH does in his work and I now am in my studies. My 2 sisters have their PhDs and worked their tails off. DH asked if I'm going to get my PhD now (one sister just got hers), I said "heck no, it's too much work." Mind you, give me several years of clinical work once I'm done with my masters and I may change my mind. I do love research.

[AnnieW625]

Neither my DH or I have that much BTDT experience with being natural over achievers, but some would think we were super book smart because of how much we had to study, but that was just life for both of us from very early on. We both went to well known state universities for our degrees. I had dreams of going to Stanford, USC, or Cal, but I never made it there, but in the end that was okay with me. We both had to study A LOT to get through school with the solid low 3.00 gpa averages we had in college. DH retook a few engineering and math classes at least twice, I know of one where he took it three times. It took DH 8 yrs. to get through college and while he does regret it took him so long sometimes he knows that if he did anything else than what he does now (mechanical engineering) he would be bored and unhappy. If his eye sight would have been correctable he would have been an airline pilot, a cop, or some sort of federal agent.

I wish I would have been better in school or been like my sister who could write a 15 page term paper in college the night before it was due, and get no grade lower than a B. My sister was an English major in college and she never read an entire single book in college. She had the gift to listen to professors and BS of off what they said. I was not given that ability and honestly it makes all of my accomplishments even more important to me because I know just how hard I had to work to get things. I did not pass my SATs (670 combined) and had something crazy like a 40% chance of even graduating from college. I graduated in 4/1/2 yrs. with 3.00 average.

I don't know where my DD1 is in the class right now and honestly while I know she is not suffering and I assume she is doing well I know she is not at the top of her reading group, but right now it doesn't bother me. We will have conferences next month so we shall see how she is doing. She wants to be a baby nurse when she grows up and part of me thinks she'll be able to do it as she is just like my DH very mechanically oriented, the complete opposite of me, but honestly I am fine with that. She is going to be her own person, and I hope be able to excel at school and later her own chosen profession.

[niccig]

He said "Well, when it comes to kids, you get what you get". That really got to me to. It's so simple, but so true. The challenge of parenting isn't shaping your kids to be what you want, it's shaping yourself to be what your kids need.

This is very true. It's not about me. I need to work out what DS needs to be the best he can be. I need to take my ego out of the equation.

[gatorsmom]

My DH was like this--a totally average student in elementary, then got to HS, grew up a bit and got motivated, and graduated at the top of his class, got a scholarship to a great college, and had an almost 4.0 while there.

I have also come to realize more and more that academic success is so not a guarantee of success in real life. Some of the most successful people I know (both in terms of personal fulfillment/quality of life as well as financially) were not stellar students, but have done incredibly well as adults, whether by starting their own businesses, finding a niche in which they thrived, etc. I am hoping that I will be more than happy for DS to take that kind of path.

:yeahthat: My DH just told me the other day that he got a 14 on his ACT. I laughed at him and thought he was kidding. He wasn't. He also was very average in school and hated it. He took a job making $60k working on an oil rig after he graduated from college. Then he saved or invested (in real estate) every penny and by 40 yo he has created and spun off 5 different companies.

School is not always an indicator.

[megs4413]

I had been struggling with this over the last few years with DD. Turns out we had her in the wrong schools! She's excelling at the school we have her in this year. And as horrible as it sounds, it's a load off my mind! I was really stressed about how to parent a kid who has to work harder to get by in school. Everything always came so naturally for me. I just felt so out of my depth. Something for her really just clicked this year, though. So, I don't know your son's situation, but I'm so glad that we kept pushing to find the right fit for DD.

[niccig]

He might be a late bloomer.


He is still really, really, really young. Kids all mature at very different rates. So you really cannot extrapolate from how he is now to how he will be when he is older.


It is true, he's still young. I worry about him getting pigeon-holed as a poor reader etc and taking that on as his identity. My younger sister has low self-esteem and confidence in her work. I do think a lot was due to how my family treated school grades, so I need to be mindful that I don't repeat the same.



I agree, you are at the beginning of an adventure of seeing all the gifts and interests of your DS, in areas academic and non-academic! It is natural to worry about him but it seems to me he has what everyone else is looking for and funding the therapy industry for - - the gift of happiness, enjoyment of life, good friendships and social skills.

... I will say also as someone that works in higher ed most of the variance in academic achievement/career achievement is based on economic privilege followed by luck and then by motivation and hard work . . . native ability is shockingly low.

Nicci, have you looked into whether your DS could have some mild dyslexia or other learning style "differences" as we say these days. :) Oftentimes that accompanies some of the verbal/phonetic stuff you have described.

I do agree that work ethic is a huge factor on success. It's something we do need to work on for DS. He is prone to give up if things aren't easy (no prizes for guessing where that came from!). I did wonder about dyslexia or something going on. DS took forever to learn his letter sounds and I was concerned about his phonemic and phonological awareness last year, he couldn't work out the sounds in words, didn't get rhyming etc. I take him to my college for speech therapy and I had mentioned this in a past report. This semester his student clinician is one of my friends. She gave him a phonemic awareness test and he passed with flying colours. I think this time last year he wouldn't have. DS was a late walker and a late talker, but when he started, it was running and complete sentences. I think he tends to be on later than average with acquiring skills then jumps ahead. DH keeps reminding me of this, but I'm the worrier in the family.

He still messes up his /b/ and /d/ phonemes when reading, and either self-corrects or gets it right when I tell him to try again. His decoding has dramatically improved (we worked on phonics over the summer) and he's nearly finished with the series of books he was given at the beginning of school, which is faster progress than last year. His spelling is better and his weekly words have been much easier to learn. He can sound out the word and knows the corresponding letters. This time last year, it was so painful for him to memorize the spelling. He's still not fluent in his reading and will sound out most words. It drives DH nuts that he'll sound out a word on page 1 and then again on page 2,3,4,5. DH wants to know when he'll recognize that it's the same word. I've seen him do this some times, but not other times. So, I'll still keep an eye on things.



I think the problem is, as others have said, they aren't getting to pick their areas of interest. He may turn out to be an amazing XYZ, but until he learns the 3Rs, he can't get there. No kid can. So my no-BTDT-advice is, as long as he comes out being able to read for information, write a coherent paragraph, and do the grade-level math, he will have the tools to find his way. And most kids do learn those 3 things without being gifted.


I agree, he needs to get a good grounding in the 3Rs. I think we'll get there, but it's going to be at his pace and I just have to be patient. Today he read 15 pages in his book (more than he's ever read at once) and I was great until about the last 2 pages. It is painful to watch him decode the words. I'm tired though, so need to be mindful of not showing him I'm impatient. It would be easier in a way if he was an early reader like I was. My mother said I taught myself to read before K and no work on her part.

[niccig]

He is NOT interested in most of what they go over at school, and due to his very quirky personality (he is not a hoop jumper and peer pressure doesn't work, he marches to his own beat and is a loner at school), I'm finding that his grades are suffering, even though past teachers have been telling me since he was in preschool that he is gifted. We keep trying to explain to him that we know that he is smart, BUT he still needs to try to do well at the game of school in order to get to where he wants to be and to learn the basics. He's not keen at all about the hoop jumping, but while I agree that it sucks, it is still a part of life that he will have to learn, since he will have to do hoop jumping throughout life, like it or not.

This is DS in some ways. He will not perform on request and never has. In our playgroup the other moms would say "Q, tell everyone that song you know," and Q would recite it. DS would know it, just look at you and go do what he wanted. In preschool I told his teacher I didn't know if DS knew his colours as he would never say which colour was which and my father is color-blind, so there's a chance DS was (I'm a carrier). The teacher told me a couple of weeks later that DS wouldn't tell her the colours, but when she asked him to go get a certain coloured item, he could do it. She said "he's not a performer." I agree that it is a part of school, performing on cue, so it is something our boys will have to learn.

[Globetrotter]

I think sometimes street smarts counts for as much, if not more, than book smarts. I mean intangibles like social skills.. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is more important than academics for certain career paths. BTW, your ds DOES sound very smart to me and a love of reading is a great thing. Academics may click for him later in life. He is only in second (?) grade, after all!!

I know someone who was a B-C student until high school. Well, something clicked, he worked hard at AP classes, and he is now a dentist! He always struggled with standardized tests and failed one class in professional school (that was a setback but he got over it) but he made it through and is has a successful practice.

Also, some kids get bored easily and don't do as well in the traditional class setting as they need more stimulation. Just some food for thought.. but I can understand your disappointment as I would have felt the same.

[niccig]

School is not always an indicator.

No, it's not. I know that intellectually, but I was conditioned to equate success with grades. I need to get over it. I also need to stop comparing DS to other kids we know and to how I was as a child. In many ways DS is much smarter than me - he's better visual-spatially and at creative solutions. Many times I've said "DS, that's a great idea. Mummy didn't think of that." He's 7 and will often think of something I at 38 never thought of as an option. DH is like this, so I hoped DS had DH's problem solving skills (he does) and my academic skills (I can learn a lot of material in a short period of time). But if he only has one, I think the problem solving is far more useful. Though last night I learned the cranial nerves (name, number, entry/exit, function) in about 30 mins, so having a great academic memory can be very helpful too.

[lovin2shop]

I totally understand where you are coming from and I will echo several of the PP's, and say that my DH sounds very similar to some of the other's DHs mentioned. He is a people person, fun, happy and extremely bright, but he nearly flunked out (or nearly kicked out) of college a few times. I told him I wouldn't marry him unless he got his college GPA up to a 3.0, and I'm not sure what this says about me, but really had to think about what to do when he graduated with a 2.96! Yes, I was the achiever, 4.0 type. Truthfully, what bothered me the most was that I knew that he could have done much, much better, but just didn't really care. Fast forward to today, and he is extremely successful in a field that requires both major People skills and some serious smarts. I could succeed in the intellectual side of his business, but could never in a million years handle the social networking side without having a nervous breakdown.

My DS#2 is younger, but I imagine will probably follow in his Dad's footsteps. I seriously hope that someday he finds a really nice, smart girl to do his college applications for him and keep him enrolled in school! ;)

I think that it is a delicate balance of nuturing, embracing, and loving your kid's strengths, while not letting them be completely sidelined by their weaknesses. But, I am definitely trying to figure this out myself, as I often think I have no clue how to parent my second child!

[Clarity]

I can relate a bit to how you feel. I think my dd1 is so bright but when her kindergarden teacher commented last year that she's had kids reading at the 6th grade level, I realized that dd isn't going to be the brightest child they've ever seen. LOL That was a reality check but I'm ultimately fine with her being bright, but not brilliant. kwim? DD gets concepts, extrapolates information, has an amazing memory and picks up ideas and knowledge so quickly that I'm always just amazed. Ultimately though, there are a LOT of challenges that come with having a child that is just off the charts intelligent just as HelloKitty has expressed.

I guess I've adjusted my expectations and now my hope is just that my child is motivated to learn, learns readily and gives her best effort. I think that learning that acquiring knowledge requires work and effort is what is important. That's the lifelong skill that she'll need to take into the world when she graduates. It will help that's she's smart too but that's just icing on the cake, kwim? :)

[mik8]

Could be maturity/developmental issues. My DD is in GT program (don't know how she ended there) and if we don't "remind" her to study, she'll probably flunk because she just doesn't care. However, she is the type that will tune out if something doesn't dazzle her. Couldn't care less type of a kid. Only recently (just started 4th grade) did we notice that she's really starting to take accountability of her school work/grades and we started to see improvement in study habits. She LOVES to read and for us that's what matters most because reading really opens an avenue of things. Continue to support the love for reading.

[maestramommy]

I remember your threads before you sent your DS to this school, and now (sorry!) I'm chuckling because, well you got the school you wanted, for that reason! one of my former coworkers transferred her DD from a very competitive school to this school because it was more developmental, focused on things other than academic push.

I think it's important to remember that even though your school isn't super competitive, its academics are nothing to sneeze at, and all top classes aren't universal. A non top class could be equal to top classes in another school.

I think you know your DS best, and whether he would be more motivated in a school that did push students to achieve, or whether it would be emotionally harmful. This was the case with my coworker's DD, and transferring her was the best thing she did for her.

I also get that it's a little discouraging when our kids aren't as motivated about things we are.

[niccig]

I remember your threads before you sent your DS to this school, and now (sorry!) I'm chuckling because, well you got the school you wanted, for that reason! one of my former coworkers transferred her DD from a very competitive school to this school because it was more developmental, focused on things other than academic push.

I think it's important to remember that even though your school isn't super competitive, its academics are nothing to sneeze at, and all top classes aren't universal. A non top class could be equal to top classes in another school.

I think you know your DS best, and whether he would be more motivated in a school that did push students to achieve, or whether it would be emotionally harmful. This was the case with my coworker's DD, and transferring her was the best thing she did for her.

I also get that it's a little discouraging when our kids aren't as motivated about things we are.

Melinda, chuckle away ;). I own the dilemma, I didn't want DS in a very academic school that pushed, but now I'm worried he's not pushed enough! I do believe these skills are developmental, but the worry side of me wonders if he'll get it all together when he needs it by or do we need to do more. We're pretty sure we're not doing middle school here (too small a class), so I know at some point he's going to move on to another school that teaches at different pace. I worry he'll not be up to speed IYKWIM. Actually, I'm going to send you a PM. You know the schools in the area, so I would be interested in your take on a couple of things.

[sste]

I hesitated to say this before lest it come off as holier than thou. But if you really want to get over it I think the increasing time you will be spending with children with very significant challenges is going to do the trick. I grew up with a seriously developmentally delayed brother, one year younger than me. Society is not kind to the disabled, particularly past the first flush of childhood. I cannot adequately describe the pain and rejection he suffered, and the stress and sadness of coping with him for our entire family. I would have given anything, everything, to be able to give him 20 or 30 iq points so we could both just be normal. Because of the possible genetic aspect I have always rejoiced in every sign of intellectual progress in my kids because it means they won't have to deal with that -- normal is an enormous blessing.

[elektra]

Nicci- I feel similarly.
I was a high achiever, in GATE, an early reader, and while I did still try hard, my skillset was such that I was able to earn good grades without too much extra work.
However, i have to say that it has not translated to being the best performer in the workplace. I am not as creative or dynamic as many of my more senior coworkers.
And DH, who got ok grades in school is much better suited now for the business world that I am IMO.
DD seems to be taking after DH more than me at this point. She still cannot read and does not seem gifted. However, she is not anxious or a perfectionist and seems to be doing her little homework worksheets without too much trouble or worry. And she is a generally happy child. So that is what I am holding on to. And I hope she can come into her own, in whatever shape that might take in the future.

[sntm]

I struggle with this too. I was luckily blessed with smarts and was a hard worker/gunner type person. DS1 is very bright, occasionally with flashes of brilliance (though I worry he peaked at 2), but is not a hard worker. XH was moderately bright and moderately hard working, so I blame him ;)

The biggest thing I worry about (and I think that's part of what you are saying) is about allowing school or whatever to crush what little motivation he has. I saw that with my sister, who is actually "smarter" than I (her IQ is 2 points higher :P ) but got early labels and comparisons and bad teachers and just floundered for quite a while.

I try to encourage the academic interests he has (chess, reading, robotics) and make the ones he dislikes more fun (math drills) and keep the happy and content phrase in my head. I know he will do fine, won't end up on the street or in a deadend job, so my goal is just to help him get to the place where he will be happiest.

It requires a little bit of playacting on my part, but it gets easier.

[Giantbear]

:yeahthat: My DH just told me the other day that he got a 14 on his ACT. I laughed at him and thought he was kidding. He wasn't. He also was very average in school and hated it. He took a job making $60k working on an oil rig after he graduated from college. Then he saved or invested (in real estate) every penny and by 40 yo he has created and spun off 5 different companies.

School is not always an indicator.I would say over half of my high earning clients are not college graduates. And by High earning i mean over $400k annual.

[dcmom2b3]

Nicci -- I saw your post early this morning, but couldn't reply then. The BBB has given you such good feedback, I don't think that I have much to add, except that I have similar issues with DD, not just on the academic front, but the behavioral as well.

I was smart, I was serious and prissy, I was seen and not heard. My parents rewarded these traits. I also was extrodinarily anxious, and I sated that anxiety by doing well academically and defining myself with traditional notions of academic prestige. Good grades at good college=irrefutable proof of good person. I also got rewarded for that. That mindset carried over into into adulthood, and let's just say it was an epic fail. (My therapist was well compensated in the years it took me to reach that last conclusion, BTW.)

I had a glimmer of redemption my junior year of college when I realized that I actually wanted to transfer to another school and major in photography, basically throwing away the prior three years of tuition my folks had paid. But I didn't have the confidence in my own sense of self to act on it. Now I'm a lawyer, not a photog. Sigh.

In contrast, Bunny is my anti-doppelganger: goofy, messy, sticky, seen and heard always, unconcerned about school, except for the social aspects. But she's so joyous, so happy in every aspect of her life, and her talents seem to fall along the lines of those that I walked away from in pursuit of a "traditional" career. She's an artist. I'm a lawyer. Um, no obvious connection there. I struggle mightily to restrain myself from chasing her into the same anxious corral that I found safe (but, in retrospect, confining) in my school years. I want her to feel like she can call me to tell me that she wants to transfer to RISD, Corcoran, wherever, for whatever reason. I didn't have that with my folks.

It's hard to parent someone who's so different than I am. I do try to keep our differences in the front of my mind, and account for them in building our parent-child relationship; that said, I think it's going to be a bit of a wild ride at times.

[niccig]

Thanks everyone for replying. I really appreciate your advice and it has helped to read what you all have to say.

I know there is nothing really to worry about. DS will be fine. As others pointed out, he comes from home with parents that are engaged and give him opportunities/experiences to learn. Work ethic we need to work on, but overall he's going to be OK.

I know this is MY issue. On the one hand I do not want the emphasis to only be on school work and doing well. I know that backfired with me and cost a lot in therapy (there's a part of me that still feels guilty that I haven't cured cancer or done something nobel prize worthy, even though no one else in my family has reached those heights). But on the other hand, I'm insecure enough to worry we haven't made the right choice for him and if he doesn't succeed in life (and how do you define success?), it will be my failure and I'll be judged for it (I can hear my mother now!). I also worry that other kids have a leg up on him. Again, this is a me thing. DS is perfectly happy with how he's been doing in class. Mama needs to chill a little and give him space.

And true to form, DS may be behind the curve initially then catch up. Today he read 22 pages from a Zac Power book. I think he's read 20 pages maybe in a week before. He woke me up at 6.30am so he could read and has set his alarm for same time tomorrow. Yes, I'm letting him wake me up 30 mins earlier for reading time! His motivation may be short lived, but I'll go with it. He's also reading words that I didn't know he knew, so maybe his skill is higher than I thought. His expressive, receptive and comprehension levels are high (he's been tested through speech therapy), the decoding may just be the last slow piece to fall into place.

Again, thanks. I'm feeling better and less likely to freak out about DS. DH thanks you all ;).

[roseyloxs]

No, it's not. I know that intellectually, but I was conditioned to equate success with grades. I need to get over it. I also need to stop comparing DS to other kids we know and to how I was as a child. In many ways DS is much smarter than me - he's better visual-spatially and at creative solutions. Many times I've said "DS, that's a great idea. Mummy didn't think of that." He's 7 and will often think of something I at 38 never thought of as an option. DH is like this, so I hoped DS had DH's problem solving skills (he does) and my academic skills (I can learn a lot of material in a short period of time). But if he only has one, I think the problem solving is far more useful. Though last night I learned the cranial nerves (name, number, entry/exit, function) in about 30 mins, so having a great academic memory can be very helpful too.

Sounds like he is going to be an engineer. Good news is that engineers don't need strong English skills and in my experience most don't. At least I don't :rotflmao:. I didn't really rise to the top of my class until middle school and that probably has a lot to do with math and science taking a more important role at that level. My math skills really jumped in 5th grade and my teacher actually had a very laid back almost unschooling attitude about math. We just had a star chart and would teach ourselves the chapters with the textbook. If we had trouble you just went up to his desk and got 1 on 1 help. Once you felt you knew a chapter you took the chapter test. If you passed you got a star and moved on. If you failed it was not big deal you just went back and worked more on the chapter until you felt like taking the test again. He had math textbooks from 4th through 8th grade. I was half way through the 7th grade textbook by the end of 5th grade and passed out of 6th grade math. Remained a year ahead all the way through high school and finished BC Calc my junior year. Got a 5 on the AP test and passed out of 2 semesters of college calc.

I spent most of my educational career jumping between honors and regular English because I was somewhere in the middle. Getting A's in regular English was incredibly simple (and I never bothered to read the whole book). However in honors English I was more of a B student and definitely in the bottom of the honors class. Never really bothered me much, I knew math was my thing. You can't be good at everything!

[cilantromapuche]

I am so glad to read this because we as well are going through it. What I can't stand are the competitive parents that feel the need to compare their child with mine or remind me that theirs is more special, etc.
I just try to take a deep breathe and remind myself of my brother who graduated with a gpa in the 2s, flunked out of college for being a ski bum and now makes millions. He reminds me that people like him do better because they can handle situations and problem solve better than type a's. although he has turned into a type a himself now.
Thanks for this post because I really have lost sleep these last few days over a situation. Unfortunately, we do not have any other school choices nearby because we are in the sticks.

[niccig]

Update in 1

[crl]

This is an issue I have raised with my ds at his school and gotten no where. Could you tell me the name of the test that was administered?

Thank you!
Catherine

[inmypjs]

I was wondering if he has been screened in any way for dyslexia and/or auditory processing disorder? What you are describing are symptoms of both. There are many programs that can help these things - Susan Barton and Aabecedarian are two hard core phonics programs, LiPs is recommended for auditory processing issues as it helps kids connect sounds to letters, and the Davis program is great for visual spatial learners with dyslexia.

Also, keep in mind that he may struggle with traditional academics because of the phonemic awareness difficulties, but as others have pointed out, being academically talented is really not the same thing as being gifted. My 8 yo is dyslexic and quite gifted, however school will probably always be a struggle for him, because the instructional methods used are basically the opposite of how he learns. When he is taught in a way that matches his learning style, he does extremely well. Most schools know very little about these issues, and you will probably need to take matters into your own hands for a bit to figure out and get what he needs.

[niccig]

This is an issue I have raised with my ds at his school and gotten no where. Could you tell me the name of the test that was administered?

Thank you!
Catherine

The Phonological Awareness Test.

From Wikipedia.
Phonological awareness involves the detection and manipulation of sounds at three levels of sound structure: (1) syllables, (2) onsets and rimes, and (3) phonemes.

Phonemic Awareness is subset number 3 of Phonological Awareness

I was surprised at how DS scored. He is reading better, things seem to be clicking and I thought it was less of a concern. I'm glad they decided to do the test even after I said "I'm not so worried anymore, but this is what he was doing when I was concerned." I then told them what I was seeing with his reading.

I'm going to do some more research on it and I'll pass on anything I've learned.

[crl]

Thank you!

Catherine

[niccig]

I was wondering if he has been screened in any way for dyslexia and/or auditory processing disorder? What you are describing are symptoms of both. There are many programs that can help these things - Susan Barton and Aabecedarian are two hard core phonics programs, LiPs is recommended for auditory processing issues as it helps kids connect sounds to letters, and the Davis program is great for visual spatial learners with dyslexia.



I know phonological awareness problems can be symptoms of both APD and dyslexia. I'm pretty sure APD doesn't fit (DS has excellent listening and aural processing). Dyslexia, I'm not so sure mostly as DS is showing improvement in his reading and spelling. Learning spelling was painful last year as he was straight memorization. This year he learns them all on Monday by sounding them out and gets 100% on Thursday. But it is something I'll keep an eye on.

As a side point, my audiology professor disagrees with APD, mostly because there is no accepted definition or how to diagnose. He argues how can you give someone a diagnosis when the profession can't agree on what it is and how to determine if someone has it. He wants more research on it. He's a hearing in noise specialist and wonders if problem is hearing in noise. Many people have hearing in noise issues but normal audiograms, so they get told they're hearing is fine. It isn't but you need other tests to determine if you have issues with hearing in noise.

[Globetrotter]

Good for you for getting him tested!

[hellokitty]

Hey, that's a great update!

[mom2binsd]

Glad to read your update!

When I worked in the schools more and more the reading specialist and K teachers were calling on me to help Identify and provide services for phonological awareness skills.

I remember my professor in SLP grad school in my Language Learning Disabilities class kept telling us " letter/sound recognition skills" were major indicators of reading success.

Knowing the name/sound of a letter, how to blend sounds together, how to pull apart, being able to identify the beginning/middle/end sound, rhyme, create real and nonsense rhyming words.

I am a firm believer in a strong phonics program and saw so many kids with reading difficulties when the "whole language" theory was put into the schools and pretty much eliminated phonics in the early nineties.

[niccig]

Glad to read your update!

When I worked in the schools more and more the reading specialist and K teachers were calling on me to help Identify and provide services for phonological awareness skills.

I remember my professor in SLP grad school in my Language Learning Disabilities class kept telling us " letter/sound recognition skills" were major indicators of reading success.

Knowing the name/sound of a letter, how to blend sounds together, how to pull apart, being able to identify the beginning/middle/end sound, rhyme, create real and nonsense rhyming words.

I am a firm believer in a strong phonics program and saw so many kids with reading difficulties when the "whole language" theory was put into the schools and pretty much eliminated phonics in the early nineties.

I did some quick research last night and read that 20% of kids going into grade 1 can have difficulties with phonological awareness skills (even when taught in K) and this same 20% will be struggling with reading in later grades as it slows down reading acquisition - that I have seen with DS. My professor said some kids pick it out of the air w/o any extra help, other kids need to go through it step-by-step with someone. I'm hoping he'll now make more progress.

What did you do with the kids at school? I'm waiting to see what they do with DS in therapy and told them I'll do things at home as well. His current teacher does have a strong phonics program - he had her last year as well - and I think that has helped, but he's just started grade 2, so I want to make sure he gets what he needs to catch up this year. I started an old school phonics with him over the summer and started from scratch, but I didn't adress phonological awareness. I was a sight reader, never knew phonics, so I've had to teach myself it and then how to teach DS. It is helping when he's struggling with a word, I'm breaking it down into parts and even learned rules like "c is /s/ when before an e, i, y." I didn't know that!

Nicci

[sste]

Nicci, I think I may have mentioned this last year on one of your posts on a related issue with your DS - - and I really don't know anything about it personally - - but my sister who is a reading specialist is way, way into phonemological awareness as a nec. pre-reading skill and predictor of reading progress. WAY into it.

I am so glad that you figured this out for your DS! He could not be in a better set-up with you to help him. :)

[inmypjs]

Some kids with phonological awareness deficits learn well with programs designed to promote those skills. But others do not. My son spent 6+ months doing phonological awareness lessons and activities with the reading specialist at school, who is highly trained in this area and well regarded. He made zero progress. Breaking words down into pieces simply didn't make sense to him. The reading specialist and I became pretty good friends through this process, and she really tried everything. She felt awful, like she was failing him. She wasn't. His brain simply doesn't work that way. He is a visual spatial learner, who sees words as physical objects.

We pulled him from school to do the Davis reading program which helps learners like him create visual images for those small sight words that have no image associated with them, among other things. The reading specialist knew nothing about this, though she was supportive because clearly phonological awareness training was not working. To make a long story short, he now reads above grade level, and no increase in phonological awareness was involved. He learns new words by creating clay models and mental visual images of the word meaning, as well as the physical letters of that word. It is hard to grasp if your brain doesn't work this way, and I'm not saying your son's does, but I just want to point out that for some kids phonics will always be an uphill battle, and it's better to use their strengths. My son's self esteem was really suffering at the time, and I don't think he could have handled going through another round of phonics without success. I guess I just want to offer that there is another way for kids that just don't get phonics. Some school districts across the country have actually started implementing some of these same methods in their K and 1st grade classrooms, and what they've found is that special education referrals have been greatly reduced.

A few web sites of interest might be www.visualspatial.org and www.diannecraft.com. Dianne Craft is especially interesting because she attempts to combine phonics with visual pictures, and it can be a great combination for some kids.

Good luck with all of this. I think whenever parents stay on top of concerns and follow their instincts about what is best for their child, good things come!