s/o friendship question

[blisstwins]

I have been grieving for a couple of months the "loss" of the best adult friend I have made since I had children. I don't know what happened, but something happened in the spring.We used to hang out a lot, but she started only seeing us in groups, declining invitations, and canceling often. I was giving it space, though my feelings were hurt, until my daughter cried and said "why does Mary not want to play with me anymore" after a Labor Day cancellation.

I tend to be close and loyal until I feel betrayed, then I judge and dump. It is a very hard way to live and I wish I could handle things differently. Still, the woman has shown what she thinks of our friendship and of my children. Is there a point in saying something and if so, what? I can ask "did I do something to offend" and maybe I will be surprised by the answer. But if she says no, and aside from blowing us off she acts and sounds friendly, what do I say? It feels so juvenile. "You hurt my feelings?" "You make time for everyone but us?"

For the last month I have been declining things with her if the time/dates don't work for us. In the past I always dropped everything when she called because I like her so much. Since realizing she will not extend herself for us, I don't want to do it anymore. And I will not get together with a group. Today she asked me if something was the matter--not with us, with me--and I said I am fine, but we should talk. We were with kids and on the phone. How soon should I call her back?

When I met this friend it was soon after my father died. I was not working and my husband was just out of medical school. I now work (and get her work as a substitute all the time--she is otherwise SAH primarily) and my husband is a partner. Our financial situation has changed dramatically and a few months ago she guessed our income "I figure you guys must be pulling in XXXX' The comment has stuck with me because do friends really count their friends' money? I always suggest inexpensive place and things when we are out and often treat. When I do I always say "we've eaten at your house 5X and I don't cook--let me." Money is a huge issue for her, but she is insistent that being a SAH is and must be her primary job. (She is a lawyer by profession).

Ugh. I hate this. I have actually cried because it felt so nice to have a friend. My kids LOVE her daughter, but I can't be in a friendship where one person calls all the shots and she very much likes to be in charge of everything, which is something I had not noticed until this summer when I realized she invites us to her stuff, but never puts herself out to go to things she is not in charge of. In addition, my daughter is really sad and I hate to a) deny her a friendship but also, b) teach her it is OK to be in a lopsided friendship.
:cry:

[hellokitty]

I understand that you are sad. However, from your description of your, "friend," she doesn't sound like a very nice person. I also have a somewhat similar cycle, when it comes to friendships where I felt that the other person used or betrayed me. However, I still have some other friendships that have been long lasting. So, you need to decide if this friendship is worth salvaging or not. I know that it hurts that your dd is upset about your ex-friend's dd not hanging out as much to complicate things, but I would not salvage a friendship like that just for your dd and the friend's dd. I have come to discover that most of my good friends, our kids aren't necessarily close friends and some of the kids that my kids really like, I'm not that great of friends with their moms. However, that's ok. I think it's hard to find another mom that you like AND your kids play well together as well.

[niccig]

Our financial situation has changed dramatically and a few months ago she guessed our income "I figure you guys must be pulling in XXXX' The comment has stuck with me because do friends really count their friends' money? I always suggest inexpensive place and things when we are out and often treat. When I do I always say "we've eaten at your house 5X and I don't cook--let me." Money is a huge issue for her, but she is insistent that being a SAH is and must be her primary job. (She is a lawyer by profession).


I have a friend that does count her friends' money and has made friendships awkward over money. This could be the problem or it could be something else.

I've dropped off a friend's radar as she didn't get I was busy with return to school and always made me feel guilty that I wasn't available, she's very needy and I couldn't take the guilt trips anymore or her dictating how things should be eg. book club got cancelled as she kept wanting to change the date. I have started to see her in groups again and I think I can better deal with her, so that we can stay friends but I'll never be on speed dial with her again. I can't take the drama.

As for what to do, I think you need to reach out to other friends. If there's a group outing and they're there, you can be friendly and see how it's reciprocated. DH and I have decided we need to be closer to our friends and we need to initiate contact, so we're reaching out to more people rather than the same few.

[blisstwins]

Thanks, Niccig. I do have other friends and we do stuff with them. I just really enjoyed my time with this woman/family. Most of the other people in her circle are very meek, follower types, and I think that maybe when we met I had a different vibe (father's illness and death, new job, etc). I am VERY independent (thankfully). I don't need to be a leader AT ALL, but I am very much not a follower. I think she likes followers frankly. I was hoping for some kind of parity.

[baileygirl]

Is it possible she is going thru personal problems (i.e. depression, marriage problems)? I have some friends who I have felt dropped the friendship, only to find out later that something else was going on in their lives.

[BayGirl2]

Hmmm, to me the fact that she noticed you've not been accepting invites and asked if things are alright is a positive sign. At first it sounded like she was completely blowing you off, but if she is asking what's up and making an effort, maybe not? That gives you an opportunity to talk. If this really is a friendship that means something to you, and it sounds like it does, I would take that opening and at least try to talk through some of what you've mentioned above.

Although the income question would bug me too, it may just be a difference in personal comfort levels in talking about money. I don't think its totally unheard of for long time friends to talk about money, especially when they've seen each other come up through the ranks. It sounds like the sensitivity is coming from you and her not being in the same place financially, which sounds like its partially by her own choice.

I guess I'm just saying I wouldn't totally write off the friendship if you aren't ready to. There are things you said that make it sound salvageable with a little work, and by giving each other the benefit of the doubt. If you make the effort and try to regain some balance and it doesn't work at least you'll know you tried.

[blisstwins]

I think I will cry when I talk to her. Seriously. I feel like a kid. This summer when I realized what was happening I was so surprised by my sadness.

[niccig]

Thanks, Niccig. I do have other friends and we do stuff with them. I just really enjoyed my time with this woman/family. Most of the other people in her circle are very meek, follower types, and I think that maybe when we met I had a different vibe (father's illness and death, new job, etc). I am VERY independent (thankfully). I don't need to be a leader AT ALL, but I am very much not a follower. I think she likes followers frankly. I was hoping for some kind of parity.

That sounds similar to my situation. When I was SAHM I was very flexible, sure we can change the time/date etc. When I went back to school, that all changed. She organizes a lot of things for a group of moms, but it's always on her terms and gets annoyed when someone says "hey, that doesn't work for me" as we're supposed to drop everything and agree.

I've spent more time on friendships that do have a parity and feel much better for it. Also means that when I do see her in a group situation, I'm not annoyed over the latest drama.

I also recognized a similar trend with friendships that I've seen with my sister. It's this really close friendship for a while, then they use up all the other person's energy and move on to another person and the cycle continues. If it's anything like that, then it's good to not be part of it.

Friendships do evolve, you can see if this one will survive.

[sste]

Well, there is nothing wrong with that. Even if you don't end up friends, feeling love and attachment to others is never a weakness. To the contrary.

As is probably evident in the prior thread, I lean heavily toward trying to mend fences. It is not so easy to make new friends so I like to know I have done everything possible before letting a friendship go. IMO, although it is completely natural, this is no time to let pride dictate your actions!

I do think it could be something going on in her life - - honestly you never know what is going on beyind closed doors or in someone's personal life. She also sounds like perhaps ? a person that does not like to leave her comfort zone and get out of her house. It sounds like maybe she does well with hosting others but for whatever reason has less comfort/energy with leaving her house. If that is the case you may need to accept it.

Why don't you try to have a nice coffee or tea or lunch together - - ladies only, no kids, choose someplace right by her house. And try to communicate to her that you assumed she was upset with you and that it sounds like a terrible misunderstanding if she is assuming the same thing.

[codex57]

From looking around the people we know, yes, friends do consider money. Seems to be more competition the more you have of it. DW does it, even tho she complains about it. Particularly when talking about her coworker/friend, who has it even worse with her set of friends. That friend has one friend who's really a beotch about flaunting her wealth. DW's coworker stresses that she can't keep up (well, duh, sometimes, you hit the limit of what you can make). It is what it is. Still, even if friends keep an eye out on what each other makes, I don't think it's necessarily a horrible thing unless they start putting you down.

[blisstwins]

That sounds similar to my situation. When I was SAHM I was very flexible, sure we can change the time/date etc. When I went back to school, that all changed. She organizes a lot of things for a group of moms, but it's always on her terms and gets annoyed when someone says "hey, that doesn't work for me" as we're supposed to drop everything and agree.

That sounds awful and tiring. My friend is not like that. She is a generous person really, but she likes to be the organizer and have things on her terms. I remember when you went through a hard time with your own circle and had to protect yourself. You have done a great job juggling and it is probably not a bad thing that you got more selective with your friendships while realizing that you have to do more to cultivate them. It is so hard....

SSTE, your words in the other thread did influence me (surprise). I don't think I can meet her face to face, both because of time, but also because I feel pretty raw and I feel silly for feeling raw. I both want to know if I did anything, but frankly I am mad in addition to being sad and don't know what to do about that.

I am super sensitive in general--or so I have been told. It is not a great quality, though it is why my husband says he loves me!

For example, this summer we joined a pool that you need a car to get to. We live in a city and they don't have a car. My kids wanted to get their friends together for a little pool party. I asked her if I could get her a ride would they come. She said yes. I borrowed my mother's car for her. WHen I called to say I had it arranged she said that actually another very good friend of hers--and it is a very good friend, I get and respect that--who was moving had asked to get their kids together so she had said yes to that and hoped I understood. I did, til I found out the friend was moving in months not days. My daughter, who is at their apartment all the time and wanted to include the other kid in something from her life, and who thought it was a yes after I got the car was sad. Then the friend invited us to come to a picnic with that friend and a bunch of others a few days later and told me not to worry about the menu she had it planned. That picnic was the night before we were leaving for a 10 day vacation and an 8 hour drive, but we stopped by for 1/2 hour just to say hi. How is that healthy? Ugh. Thanks for letting me talk it all out. It will help when I actually do confront this problem. BTW, I told her on the phone today that she and I should probably talk when she asked if I was OK. Said I sounded depressed. I just get really withdrawn in these situations and I am normally animated. Can't hide my feelings too well. Should I call her tonight?

[blisstwins]

Codex--Counting other people's money just seems like something frenemies do, not real friends. It made me so uncomfortable. The way she said it it was clear she and her mother, who I also know, had been talking about me.

[rin]

Codex--Counting other people's money just seems like something frenemies do, not real friends. It made me so uncomfortable. The way she said it it was clear she and her mother, who I also know, had been talking about me.

I honestly don't think that the mere fact of someone thinking about how much money their friends make means that they're not "real friends". I have thought about how much money my friends make, and I've been asked questions about how much we make. I can think of three different conversations I've had over the years where a pretty close friend has asked about our finances (not anything like "what's your gross income?" but more like "oh, do these tax changes affect you all?") I would never ask one of my friends how much they make, but I've certainly wondered about one friend who has new cars, bought a house, takes foreign vacations, etc and works as a waitress. I don't think that makes us "not real friends"; a lot of it is just curiosity about lifestyles vs what seem like not super high-paying jobs, or vice versa. But DH and I have talked about it in the past, just kind of a bit of curiosity about how this friend can afford so many things that we think of as pricey, wondering if the waitressing job is actually way better paid than we imagined, or if there's family money, etc.

All that said, if it made you uncomfortable then trust your gut, of course! Regardless of whether the mere fact of it could be totally innocent/well-meaning, if you didn't feel that it came from a place of friendship then trust that feeling.

[sste]

Well, if you feel raw one option may be to get something on the calendar for a three or four weeks from now. That will give you time to calm down but also show some reciprocity for her asking if something was wrong, etc.

On the money, I have had to *gently* hint to some of my old friends over the years about the downsides of money - - and we don't even have that much! Alot of affluent families I know pay for that income with more stress, less time with their spouse, less family time, etc. Sure, people can be a little catty but they don't mean any harm and again it is probably not about your income and entirely about her mixed feelings about the pros and cons of trading lawyer income from SAH.

I do think it was inconsiderate of her to cancel but again, who knows what drama goes on in people's lives, other friend might have been having some collapse re: move, etc. I think you are getting perhaps a little hung up on dominance/weakness - - there is nothing wrong or unhealthy with you for being a forgiving person and stopping by to see her before your trip. In my book, that kind of letting things go and giving the benefit of the doubt is what healthy people do, not desperate people as you seem to be thinking.

And blisstwins, you are not chopped liver. There are plenty of ladies who would like to shop home fixtures with you and the like, myself included!

[blisstwins]

Thanks, SSTE, I wish you lived in the area! If that change of plans were a one off, or even a two off, it would not have been a big deal, but it is one incident of about 10 since April. She adjuncts about 4 hours a week and her husband literally works 9-5. Mine works 60-80 hours a week including overnights...so I hear you. There are massive trade-offs, but this is what works for us.

I think I will call her tonight and see if she wants to meet up sometime soon. I think I might be crazy though. We had had tentative plans for Sunday or today. Sunday was hard for me--and I told her that when we first talked about it-- so I asked if she was around Monday. She said yes. When I called Sunday to plan she said she was taking one other kid to the parade and then was meeting up with another friend and perhaps she could come by the museum with both sets of friends to meet up with us. Normally this is no big deal, but my daughter has not seen this kid since April and I thought it would be weird to have a big group again. I decided to see my mom instead and when I called in the morning to tell her that I was going to see my mom she preemptively said everyone had canceled on her and she was wide open to see us. I did not change my plans back and she said, "Ok, we'll just keep trying!" She has not tried at all. We used to get together all the time and now nothing or groups. See why I think I am 1/2 crazy....I hate feeling super sensitive, but I just cannot pretend all is well with her.

[ZeeBaby]

These things are so hard. One of my close friend's mom died recently and I have been trying to reach out to her and be there for her, but she seems to want to be by herself right now. I am hurt that she is spending time with other friends, but I know I need to understand that she is going through a really rough time right now and I need to get past my hurt feelings. I am waiting for her to get herself together.

[niccig]

My friend is not like that. She is a generous person really, but she likes to be the organizer and have things on her terms.

This could be the problem. She likes to be the organizer and control things and now you're not dropping everything to do something that she suggests. Which is fine. It's not healthy to drop everything for someone else and always do what suits them. There needs to be give and take in friendships.

I wouldn't write off the friendship, I do agree with others that you try to make things work. Maybe suggest something for a few weeks as others suggested and see what happens.

[nmosur]

I can sympathize - it has happened before. Now I have a very strict rule about not getting too friendly with DD's friend's parents after one friend decided to cool off towards me. Our kids were very close and DD still asks about them on a daily basis. Teh friend decided to pick another family to be close with - the kids hang out together and do sleep overs. It hurts DD when she finds out about it. The timing is kind of suspect too - the chill started when we decided to send DD to private school.

Any major life event - good or bad - is a litmus test for friendships.

[blisstwins]

Well I called her and it was OK. There were a few tense moments. She honestly does not remember all the cancellations--only remembered really recent stuff. Every single cancellation or decline would have been fine, but taken together it was hard not to imagine it was because something had changed. She also said that she has been sick and insanely busy so she has been limited. I would get that too, but every time I have talked to her she has told me about this or that she has done with another family. The main thing is we kind of cleared the air and we got two dates on the calendar. We said we missed each other, which is true. I would not have been so crazy if I did not like her so much. We will see how it goes.

nmosur: I would not be surprised if your suspicions were right. It is sad and hard, especially when kids are involved. I thought it was the greatest blessing that my children adore her daughter, but I am going to have to work hard to keep my feelings separate from their friendship.

Thank you guys for letting me talk through this tonight. It was so so helpful. SSTE, I am grateful for your encouragement with regard to losing my pride and keeping and open mind. I opened with "have I done something wrong" and "I miss you. We miss you." I am sure that changed the tone a lot.

[TxCat]

I'm coming late to this thread, but I'm so glad to hear that your talked and it sounds like took a big step to reestablishing your closeness with this friend. I've lost a couple of friends in adulthood and each time I wished that I had been less stubborn and prideful - I will always wonder if I had taken the step of admitting that I missed the friend and relationship, if the friendship ultimately would have been saved. So kudos to you for taking that step.