Update on 3 across in Mazda5: Who knew??

[maestramommy]

For those who missed it, I posted in here a couple of weeks ago because I saw 3 carseats in the middle row of a Mazda 5 at preschool pickup. I alerted Laurel's teacher because posters confirmed my fear that it was not possible. Well, the teacher took everything apart, and told me it is! It's a called a clip system. The outboard seats are installed with the belt, and the infant seat in the middle was installed with a clip. It really was clipped in there, and the Dad confirmed that it was a clip system. he was really nice about it, didn't take offense at all.

So I learned something new today! Course it now makes me wonder what this system is, where it's from, and if it's only possible with an infant seat.

[blue]

Interesting. I have never heard of a clip system. Did the teacher mean the infant system was installed with LATCH? I have a Mazda 5 and I am trying to figure out how they did this. Maybe they borrowed the latch from the two captains chairs in the 2nd row for the infant seat and wedged the infant between the captains chairs???......Was the car imported, I heard some Mazda 5 in other countries have three seats in the second row but I am not positive on that.

[maestramommy]

Interesting. I have never heard of a clip system. Did the teacher mean the infant system was installed with LATCH? I have a Mazda 5 and I am trying to figure out how they did this. Maybe they borrowed the latch from the two captains chairs in the 2nd row for the infant seat and wedged the infant between the captains chairs???......Was the car imported, I heard some Mazda 5 in other countries have three seats in the second row but I am not positive on that.

I wish I knew. The car comes from somewhere in my own neighborhood, another street up. One of these days I'm going to follow them home and ask the Dad!

Wish Jools would weigh in on this!

[jjordan]

Absolutely 100% unsafe. Every car seat MUST MUST MUST be installed in a forward facing seating position in the vehicle. If there is no seating position, you cannot install a car seat there, no matter what name you give to the installation.

ETA: I'm not jools, but I am a CPST. :)

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

According to Wkipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Premacy):

In North America, due to safety regulations, the Mazda5 fits six passengers using three rows of seats, with two seats per row. Elsewhere, it is sold as a seven seater using Mazda's "Karakuri Seating System", which means the car has three rows of two seats, with the seventh seat a fold away jump seat in the centre of the middle row. The Mazda5 has three-point seat belts on all seven seats.


So I suppose if they imported their car, they could have a 3rd sent in the middle row. Otherwise, no way.

[o_mom]

Now I'm dying to know as well. I do wonder if it is an imported vehicle.... you need to get some pictures for us!

[schrocat]

The Mazda 5s sold in Malaysia sit 3 across.

[mom2binsd]

Interesting. I have never heard of a clip system. Did the teacher mean the infant system was installed with LATCH? I have a Mazda 5 and I am trying to figure out how they did this. Maybe they borrowed the latch from the two captains chairs in the 2nd row for the infant seat and wedged the infant between the captains chairs???......Was the car imported, I heard some Mazda 5 in other countries have three seats in the second row but I am not positive on that.


I agree that I think he borrowed and latch connectors and has self named this the CLIP system, I have never heard that term used, isofix/latch but never clip.

Unless it's imported I'm still going with the dad is making the car fit their needs and borrowing the latch connectors.

I'm pretty curious now.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I remember seeing something that could be installed and would seat three kids across two seating positions. It may have been Euro only. I believe it hooked into LATCH (ISOFIX in Europe) or the seatbelts but was basically a bench seat that sat on top of the regular seats and had three smaller seating positions with seatbelts that could hold a child. Or a carseat, I assume.

I tried googling and couldn't come up with the original article.

Move this to the carseat forum and maybe someone there will know what I am talking about.

[o_mom]

I remember seeing something that could be installed and would seat three kids across two seating positions. It may have been Euro only. I believe it hooked into LATCH (ISOFIX in Europe) or the seatbelts but was basically a bench seat that sat on top of the regular seats and had three smaller seating positions with seatbelts that could hold a child. Or a carseat, I assume.

I tried googling and couldn't come up with the original article.

Move this to the carseat forum and maybe someone there will know what I am talking about.

I know what you are talking about.... let me see if I can find it.

[o_mom]

This one?

http://www.multimac.co.uk/home

[stillplayswithbarbies]

This one?

http://www.multimac.co.uk/home

that's it! you have no idea how much time I wasted googling trying to find that.

[maestramommy]

Well, I get that you can't have more than 6 regular passengers. But is it impossible to think that you could get an extra carseat in the 2nd row (or third) if you had the right hardware? I know it seems farfetched, but the teacher seemed pretty clear that it looked legit.

[o_mom]

Well, I get that you can't have more than 6 regular passengers. But is it impossible to think that you could get an extra carseat in the 2nd row (or third) if you had the right hardware? I know it seems farfetched, but the teacher seemed pretty clear that it looked legit.

My guess is that it is either a) some sort of rigged up, unsafe install or b) an imported M5 with a center seat.

Really, there isn't anything I know of that would allow you to put a carseat in that center spot if there is not an actual vehicle seat there. Way far out that it could be the multimac linked above, but at $2-3k, I'm doubting they would go to the trouble.

We really need pictures. :)

[MamaMolly]

This one?

http://www.multimac.co.uk/home

That's fascinating! I know someone who could actually use one, they are going to India. Off to share this!

[mom2binsd]

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=233070

I started another thread on this topic over at car-seat.org as some of them have the Mazda 5.

I think Melinda really needs to stalk that vehicle, take some picture and post here....

I dont' necessarily trust the preschool teachers assessment of whether it's legit, or even the dads saying it's allowed, many parents have been known to very creative in their carseat installation.

[alexsmommy]

Huh, for some reason this has me fascinated. I came up with this

http://www.childrestraints.com.au/store/products04.php

Interesting what other countries allow.

[maestramommy]

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=233070

I started another thread on this topic over at car-seat.org as some of them have the Mazda 5.

I think Melinda really needs to stalk that vehicle, take some picture and post here....

I dont' necessarily trust the preschool teachers assessment of whether it's legit, or even the dads saying it's allowed, many parents have been known to very creative in their carseat installation.

I'd be interested in the responses you get. As for stalking, dh and I talked about it at length tonight. In his opinion, we have done what we could. We called attention to it, inspected it, the parent vouched for it, and we simply do not have enough info to definitely say the parents are doing something that is not allowed. This kind of thing happens all the time. I remember posting here last year about places that would install a 3rd row in the back of an SUV after market. Dh was totally against it because he said that is not what the car engineers had in mind when they design a car for safety. And he is equally skeptical about making a 2 person row a 3rd person row. However, at this point it is totally on the user to make a judgement on the risk they are taking if they are in fact doing something unintended by the car manufacturer. And it isn't up to us to police them. I don't even know that we have the right to do such a thing.

I get what you are saying, and I don't necessarily trust the teachers either. Laurel's teacher said, "I don't know how I missed that!" but she doesn't have kids. And the other teachers are too old to have young children. All they know is what they see in the car and their main concern is getting the child safely in and out of the car. They're not peering at the seats. But from a community standpoint we have fulfilled our responsibility.

[maestramommy]

btw, thanks moms2bind for posting on the carseat forum! I read the responses, and I have a suspicion that what they are doing is borrowing the inner LATCH anchors, and straddling the space between the chairs with the infant seat base. I could see why they would think this would work, since, "hey, it's an infant seat, rearfacing, it doesn't need the headrest, or even seatback. I wouldn't do it myself, but DH said not to dismiss it out of hand. What if the parent(s) are mechanical engineers and have somehow figured that this is okay, even though it's not a stated use. I remember our Accord manual states that the LATCH anchors were for the outboard seats, but it didn't prohibit using it for the center seat. And we had no idea, we used it for our infant seat in the center for Dora's first year. Her base had rigid connectors that just happened to fit perfectly.

[mom2binsd]

I just meant to stalk the car so satisfy our curiosity, not to convince them that what they are probably doing it pretty unsafe....the folks on car-seat.org are also curious too! I know it's hard when you see things that are unsafe but people will do what they will do.

[ha98ed14]

I remember our Accord manual states that the LATCH anchors were for the outboard seats, but it didn't prohibit using it for the center seat. And we had no idea, we used it for our infant seat in the center for Dora's first year. Her base had rigid connectors that just happened to fit perfectly.

What? Seriously? This is exactly how DD's Nautilis is installed! There are 4 anchors across the back, where the seat meet that back. DD's seat in in between the two middle ones using the strap with the clips on the sides. Then there is a strap that goes over the top of the seat, under the head rest and clips into a ring on the floor of the trunk. Is this the wrong install?

OMG! How can I have been a member here for 5+ years and do this WRONG?!?! I was told the center was the safest position, so that's where we put it. Please, someone tell me how to do this correctly!

[KrisM]

What? Seriously? This is exactly how DD's Nautilis is installed! There are 4 anchors across the back, where the seat meet that back. DD's seat in in between the two middle ones using the strap with the clips on the sides. Then there is a strap that goes over the top of the seat, under the head rest and clips into a ring on the floor of the trunk. Is this the wrong install?

OMG! How can I have been a member here for 5+ years and do this WRONG?!?! I was told the center was the safest position, so that's where we put it. Please, someone tell me how to do this correctly!

I don't know what car you have. But, it depends on the car. Some let you "borrow" connectors and some don't. You need to check your manual. If it doesn't say you can use the inner LATCH anchors for a middle seat, then you can't. You need to use a seatbelt insead. Also, be sure to check the weight. Some cars go to a 40 lb kid and some to a 48 lbs kid.

[daniele_ut]

OMG! How can I have been a member here for 5+ years and do this WRONG?!?! I was told the center was the safest position, so that's where we put it. Please, someone tell me how to do this correctly!

Honda does not allow you to borrow anchors to do a center install. Is your car a Honda? There are some manufacturers (Ford and Mazda, for example) that allow you to borrow anchors.

Install it in the center using the seatbelt. LATCH is not any safer than a seatbelt install anyway.

[niccig]

Install it in the center using the seatbelt. LATCH is not any safer than a seatbelt install anyway.

:yeahthat: if you can't borrow the outboard LATCH. We did the same mistake with DS and I posted something about his seat in the car seat forum and Jools caught it. DH swore it was fine, I did more research and that was the beginning of my car-seat obsession. DH never argues about car-seats now as he gets a lecture complete with statistics and you-tube vidoes :tongue5:

[edurnemk]

There are some manufacturers (Ford and Mazda, for example) that allow you to borrow anchors.

Install it in the center using the seatbelt. LATCH is not any safer than a seatbelt install anyway.

:yeahthat: But both the car manufacturer and the car seat manufacturer have to allow borrowed LATCH as I understand it, i.e., Ford allows it and Britax allows it, so we had DS's Blvd in the center position of our Ford Escape with LATCH, but now we have a Nissan Rogue that doesn't allow borrowed LATCH, so the same Blvd is installed with a seat belt in the center (well, it was until 3 months ago, now it's in the outboard with LATCH because DD's infant seat wouldn't fit beside the Blvd).

[jjordan]

What? Seriously? This is exactly how DD's Nautilis is installed! There are 4 anchors across the back, where the seat meet that back. DD's seat in in between the two middle ones using the strap with the clips on the sides. Then there is a strap that goes over the top of the seat, under the head rest and clips into a ring on the floor of the trunk. Is this the wrong install?

OMG! How can I have been a member here for 5+ years and do this WRONG?!?! I was told the center was the safest position, so that's where we put it. Please, someone tell me how to do this correctly!

It's a very common mistake; I inspected someone's car seat just last Saturday that was installed like that (and they were convinced they had it correct, btw, only "let" me inspect it because they felt bad that no one else was showing up to the check!). Read your car manual to see if LATCH is allowed in the center seating position of your vehicle, or post back with the vehicle make/model/year and I can look it up for you.

Passenger vehicles made since 2002 are required to have at least two seating positions with the full LATCH system (two lower anchors and one top tether anchor), and at least three top tether anchors total. So there is usually (but not always) at least one "orphan" top tether anchor in any given vehicle.

[maestramommy]

Honda does not allow you to borrow anchors to do a center install. Is your car a Honda? There are some manufacturers (Ford and Mazda, for example) that allow you to borrow anchors.

Install it in the center using the seatbelt. LATCH is not any safer than a seatbelt install anyway.
:yeahthat: Read your manual, it should say. Dh is such a diligent manual reader, I don't know how he missed this the first time. And I can't remember what it was that made us go back and check. Maybe when Arwyn was born and we were trying to figure out how to fit two huge seats next to each other. Or when we transitioned Dora to a Roundabout and read the directions. It was a shock for sure, but we were grateful to luck out with no accidents.

[ha98ed14]

Read your car manual to see if LATCH is allowed in the center seating position of your vehicle, or post back with the vehicle make/model/year and I can look it up for you.


We have a 2009 Kia Rondo. We bought it used and it didn't come with the manual, and I thought I knew it was ok, so I never hunted it down (Bad Mommy!). I would be really grateful for your time to look this up! DD is ~40lbs and riding FF (obviously) using the 5 point harness of a Graco Nautilis...



Passenger vehicles made since 2002 are required to have at least two seating positions with the full LATCH system (two lower anchors and one top tether anchor), and at least three top tether anchors total. So there is usually (but not always) at least one "orphan" top tether anchor in any given vehicle.


This described my bar perfectly. Her seat is tethered to the middle top anchor and clipped in to the two center latch anchors. Why they would put in a central top tether and not let you use the two center seat anchors for the LATCH is odd to me.

Are you supposed to tether the seat (Seat Latch and/or top tether) when DC start using the seat belt?

[o_mom]

We have a 2009 Kia Rondo. We bought it used and it didn't come with the manual, and I thought I knew it was ok, so I never hunted it down (Bad Mommy!). I would be really grateful for your time to look this up! DD is ~40lbs and riding FF (obviously) using the 5 point harness of a Graco Nautilis...




This described my bar perfectly. Her seat is tethered to the middle top anchor and clipped in to the two center latch anchors. Why they would put in a central top tether and not let you use the two center seat anchors for the LATCH is odd to me.

Are you supposed to tether the seat (Seat Latch and/or top tether) when DC start using the seat belt?


The 2009 Rondo does not allow the use of LATCH in the center. You need to use the seat belt and top tether anchor. It's really not hard, just read your manual. :)

As for why they put in a tether anchor but you can't use the lower anchors... long and complicated (and maybe belongs in the 'over regulation' thread in the political forum, lol). Here goes, though:

Basically, they are only required to have seating positions with lower anchors and top tethers (LATCH) additionally, they must have one more seating position with at least a top tether anchor. Most companies choose to do the bare minimum so you end up with three tether anchors and two sets of lower anchors.

In some cars, the sets of lower anchors are actually one part when you look under the seat. They look something like this:

A_____A......A______A

Where each set of lower anchors is a metal bar attached to the frame in the center, with an anchor on either end. They test them in sets, with each side being pulled equally. If you attach the seat to the end ones on each part, you are now pulling only on one side and it has not been tested that way. There is no way to know if it would fail in a crash.

[infocrazy]

DD is ~40lbs

Are you supposed to tether the seat (Seat Latch and/or top tether) when DC start using the seat belt?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but when I installed DS2's FR85, I had to use the seatbelt because I thought you could only use latch up to 40 lbs. So, his seat is installed with the seatbelt, but still tethered.

In your case, even if you move her seat, you should still use the seatbelt, unless this is a Britax thing...

[ha98ed14]

The 2009 Rondo does not allow the use of LATCH in the center. You need to use the seat belt and top tether anchor. It's really not hard, just read your manual. :)



Thank you for this! I will reinstall using the seat belt and top tether so as to keep DD in the middle seat. I cannot believe I've done this wrong and been a member here. Ugh. Thank heavens we've never had an accident!

[o_mom]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but when I installed DS2's FR85, I had to use the seatbelt because I thought you could only use latch up to 40 lbs. So, his seat is installed with the seatbelt, but still tethered.

In your case, even if you move her seat, you should still use the seatbelt, unless this is a Britax thing...

The weight limits depend on the vehicle and the seat. Some are as low as 40 lbs, others go up to 48+. Changing over at 40 lbs is always OK, though, and errs on the conservative side. :)

[BabbyO]

The 2009 Rondo does not allow the use of LATCH in the center. You need to use the seat belt and top tether anchor. It's really not hard, just read your manual. :)

As for why they put in a tether anchor but you can't use the lower anchors... long and complicated (and maybe belongs in the 'over regulation' thread in the political forum, lol). Here goes, though:

Basically, they are only required to have seating positions with lower anchors and top tethers (LATCH) additionally, they must have one more seating position with at least a top tether anchor. Most companies choose to do the bare minimum so you end up with three tether anchors and two sets of lower anchors.

In some cars, the sets of lower anchors are actually one part when you look under the seat. They look something like this:

A_____A......A______A

Where each set of lower anchors is a metal bar attached to the frame in the center, with an anchor on either end. They test them in sets, with each side being pulled equally. If you attach the seat to the end ones on each part, you are now pulling only on one side and it has not been tested that way. There is no way to know if it would fail in a crash.

Thanks for this explanation/visual. I've not heard this before...and will allow me to better explain why you can't use the LATCH anchors in the center position when helping friends and family!


Thank you for this! I will reinstall using the seat belt and top tether so as to keep DD in the middle seat. I cannot believe I've done this wrong and been a member here. Ugh. Thank heavens we've never had an accident!

Don't feel bad...I had the same thing happen when Stachio was almost 1 yo. I realized because of a post here that we'd had his infant seat base installed incorrectly in the center position in my car all along.

I've taken to always installing in the center position with the seat belt in all cars. It gets too complicated to remember which cars/seats allow it.

Also, thank you to the PP'er who mentioned that both the car manufacturer AND the carseat manufacturer have to allow the use of LATCH in the center position. I knew you needed to check to see if the car manufacturer allowed it...but didn't know about the cs manufacturer.

BTW, am I the only one that finds it frustrating that both the car manual and the carseat manual send you to the other ("refer to your vehicle manual" or "refer to the safety seat manual") for the proper method of installation. Most times I can figure it out....but there are some items where both manuals are completely vague or say to refer to the other manual.

[longtallsally05]

The weight limits depend on the vehicle and the seat. Some are as low as 40 lbs, others go up to 48+. Changing over at 40 lbs is always OK, though, and errs on the conservative side. :)

I have a 2009 Kia Rondo and have looked over the manual carefully. There is no mention of a weight limit for LATCH in the 2009 Kia Rondo manual that I can find. In the absence of guidance from the owner's manual, I have always gone with the guidelines from the child restraint manufacturers. Right now DS#1 sits in a Diono Radian RXT and that seat says you can use LATCH up to 80 lbs or something unbelievable. I'm not really sure what to think about that, so I'm considering switching to a seatbelt installation now that DS#1 is almost 40 lbs.

I recently decided that I want to get DD out of the third row if I possibly can, because there just isn't much room between her head and the back glass of the car. I just bought two more Radian RXTs and I hope to be able to install 3 across in the Rondo, with DS#2 RFing in the center. We'll see how it goes...