Lance Armstrong

[citymama]

Wow. What a complete and total fall from grace. In addition to being stripped of his 7 Tour de France titles and being made to step down from Livestrong Foundation, he is likely going to have to return somewhere in the vicinity of $150 million (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/potential-tax-implications-lance-armstrongs-113039311.html)in prize and sponsorship money.

I feel like this is a teaching moment for parents - we urge our kids to look up to these heroes, and we must teach them why this success must never come at any cost. We have to earn our stripes, not drug our way to them.

So very disappointing to know that this is how he won his titles.

[SnuggleBuggles]

But, I keep thinking that his field of competition was likely equally guilty of doping. I think the whole thing is possibly hypocritical. It really doesn't bother me that much. Eta- the stripping of titles is what doesn't bother me (well, actually it does bc I don't think he's alone in his actions); I still think he was an amazing athlete.

[ellies mom]

I guess I'm a cynic but what bothers me about all of this is that doping is so rampant in professional cycling that his stripped titles will most likely go to someone else who was also doping.

[brittone2]

DH is a cyclist and a pretty avid fan of watching cycling. We've been following the doping stuff for years as a result.

I always think about his kids and having to explain his fall from grace to them....that seems to be about the worst thing you could possibly experience as the result of your actions.

[brittone2]

I guess I'm a cynic but what bothers me about all of this is that doping is so rampant in professional cycling that his stripped titles will most likely go to someone else who was also doping.
I haven't followed the very newest info on this but DH mentioned last night that for one of the forfeited titles they had to go to the 13th rider to find someone, and he wasn't interested in accepting the title. (cynical me assumes he probably was doping too. Although maybe it just feels pointless to have a "victory" attributed to you that you don't feel like you won.)

I never followed cycling that much until DH got into it. I have picked on him mercilessly about the doping/cycling thing over the years. He still enjoys watching. I was a serious runner in my younger years, and always loved watching track, etc. when it was on. I haven't really followed it in years because I feel the same way about that sport now too. IMO, the beauty is the simplicity of pushing the human body as far as it can go (without doping). The doping thing just kills the whole thing for me.

[hellokitty]

DH is really into cycling and his feeling is that if Armstrong got stripped, ALL of them should be stripped, since doping is common. He thinks it is unfair that the teammates who tattled on Armstrong only got a 6 month suspension.

[codex57]

I follow it a little.

To me, as a casual fan, unlike, say, baseball, doping was so rife, that I don't hold Armstrong to be any different from his peers. If he doped, so did all his peers. Playing field was still level.

He didn't dominate simply because he doped. Everyone doped. He was so good because of other advances his team made, including strategy both on the bike and off.

So, to me, in the limited sport of cycling, the Armstrong case doesn't change anything for me at all. I still consider him the winner for all those years.

[wellyes]

So what do you do if a whole entire sport is corrupt? Stripping the man who got the most money and glory from that is a good start.

[BigDog]

I follow it a little.

To me, as a casual fan, unlike, say, baseball, doping was so rife, that I don't hold Armstrong to be any different from his peers. If he doped, so did all his peers. Playing field was still level.

He didn't dominate simply because he doped. Everyone doped. He was so good because of other advances his team made, including strategy both on the bike and off.

So, to me, in the limited sport of cycling, the Armstrong case doesn't change anything for me at all. I still consider him the winner for all those years.

Totally agree.

[codex57]

I guess I'm a cynic but what bothers me about all of this is that doping is so rampant in professional cycling that his stripped titles will most likely go to someone else who was also doping.

I believe they've already announced that they're not going to be passing on his titles to anyone else (I bet cuz they know that everyone else doped until you would have to get to a ridiculous number far down the line).

In any case, there will just be no winner during those years.

[bisous]

So what do you do if a whole entire sport is corrupt? Stripping the man who got the most money and glory from that is a good start.

I'm with you here. I wonder if cycling will EVER be free from the stain of doping and doping allegations. Penalizing Lance Armstrong is clearly sending a strong message to other cyclists but will it even matter? I guess I'm glad to hear that some people still really enjoy watching cycling. I can't watch anymore without wondering what is really going on...

[HannaAddict]

DH is really into cycling and his feeling is that if Armstrong got stripped, ALL of them should be stripped, since doping is common. He thinks it is unfair that the teammates who tattled on Armstrong only got a 6 month suspension.

Yeah that. It isn't like he was doping against the honest riders. It was the cost of doing business. No matter what he did doping wise, he still excelled and best his also doping competitors and teammates seven times. Sad though and I don't condone doping but he still is a rock star in the sport.

[ellies mom]

Yeah that. It isn't like he was doping against the honest riders. It was the cost of doing business. No matter what he did doping wise, he still excelled and best his also doping competitors and teammates seven times. Sad though and I don't condone doping but he still is a rock star in the sport.

I agree. And like Codex said, the playing field was still level.

[brittone2]

Yeah that. It isn't like he was doping against the honest riders. It was the cost of doing business. No matter what he did doping wise, he still excelled and best his also doping competitors and teammates seven times. Sad though and I don't condone doping but he still is a rock star in the sport.
That's how DH feels about it. I agree that it was the cost of doing business and pretty much the whole field is tainted.

Years ago DH would say, well, he isn't failing tests. But at the same time, you'd have stage winners like Vinokourov testing positive...obviously he didn't *think* he was going to test positive....therefore, my take was there were many ways they were pretty sure they were beating tests, masking their doping, etc.. (eta: to clarify, stage win equals automatic testing, so if they were doping and winning a stage, they were confident they had a work around or a masking drug to deal with the test).

[codex57]

I'm with you here. I wonder if cycling will EVER be free from the stain of doping and doping allegations. Penalizing Lance Armstrong is clearly sending a strong message to other cyclists but will it even matter? I guess I'm glad to hear that some people still really enjoy watching cycling. I can't watch anymore without wondering what is really going on...

Rabobank just announced they're completely dropping support for pro cycling. They're the second oldest sponsor. They're one of the few entities that can initiate systematic changes from the inside. They chose the sport cannot be cleared of doping in the foreseeable future so it's better to just pull out now.

[TwinFoxes]

It seems that not only was he doping, he was instrumental in strong arming people into going along with it. It really seems he was a ring leader. At least according to things I've read, including this NY Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/sports/how-armstrongs-wall-fell-one-rider-at-a-time.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

I remember when Floyd Landis first admitted to doping and said Armstrong did too. Armstrong pretty much set out to destroy him. I also don't believe he stopped fighting because he was tired of the fight or couldn't afford it. His goose was cooked. $150 million? Yeah, he could afford to fight

[swissair81]

I agree. And like Codex said, the playing field was still level.

I don't know. Isn't that kind of like saying Armstrong did best on the test from a class full of cheaters? 'Best' sounds pretty meaningless, if you ask me.

[maestramommy]

So, so sad, this.

Dh and I were talking about this last night, and what really gets Dh about it is not so much the doping, as the lying. Just straight up repeated lying for years. Not even an unique angle to it. Just kept on lying and acting all offended.

If everyone was doing it, then maybe like Codex said he's still in a class by himself, and he did so many things through Livestrong. But WHY do people do this?? Why can't they just go to the natural limits of their ability, instead of cheating because "everyone else does it?" It just sickens me, when we try to teach our kids the importance of fair play and going by the rules. ugh.

[mytwosons]

I don't know. Isn't that kind of like saying Armstrong did best on the test from a class full of cheaters? 'Best' sounds pretty meaningless, if you ask me.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

Just cuz everyone was doping doesn't make it less wrong.

[lfp2n]

Yes they were all doping but it wasn't an even field of dopers. He had the best and most organized doping system, the best doctors, best drugs, best system so not even an even doping playing field at all. Added to that through his power and position he bullied other people into doping and some people think he even got UCI officials to turn a blind eye. I think the fact the others only got 6 months suspension in the off season is a little unfair but I think it is because they came clean and he never has and probably never will because he'd be liable for even more money.
I think there is still hope, younger cyclists are now mostly considered clean, hopefully it's a new era

[codex57]

I don't know. Isn't that kind of like saying Armstrong did best on the test from a class full of cheaters? 'Best' sounds pretty meaningless, if you ask me.

Ehhh, it's kinda like anything in life when there's enough money involved. There's a quote in sports (but it applies in things like business as well) that goes something like this: "if you aren't cheating, you're not trying." In a competition, you go to the limits of the rules. Sometimes beyond. Because often, when you're the winner, you write the rules and history books.

That tends to pop up the most in racing. Nascar for example. However, the alternative is F1, where there's basically an unlimited budget to try and use technology to make the cars as fast as possible.

With a sport like cycling, where you can only do so much with the bike, that leaves tweaking the human powering the bike. If you took out the rules outlawing doping, how is what they're doing any different then tuning a car? Nascar imposes artificial limits for arbitrary reasons all the time.

With cycling, if you subscribe to my opinion that basically EVERYONE doped (for whatever reason), then while it was technically illegal by the rules, the playing field was still level and people were basically ignoring that particular set of rules while still abiding by the rest.

I really don't slam any of them too hard. At the pro level, it's not about "doing your best", it's about winning.

In business, businesses ignore laws like antitrust, environmental, fair practice, etc all the time.

[wellyes]

With cycling, if you subscribe to my opinion that basically EVERYONE doped (for whatever reason), then while it was technically illegal by the rules, the playing field was still level and people were basically ignoring that particular set of rules while still abiding by the rest.
He encouraged others to dope , trafficked drugs, had doctors on staff to supply it, his wife was a courier. He threatened those who wanted to expose him. It's not just everyone did it, his influence helped make the culture what it became.

[MamaMolly]

Sad but funny. http://store.theonion.com/p-5045-cheat-to-win-bracelet.aspx?utm_source=Onion&utm_medium=rightbanner&utm_campaign=ad11

[mik8]

With cycling, if you subscribe to my opinion that basically EVERYONE doped (for whatever reason), then while it was technically illegal by the rules, the playing field was still level and people were basically ignoring that particular set of rules while still abiding by the rest.

I really don't slam any of them too hard. At the pro level, it's not about "doing your best", it's about winning.

In business, businesses ignore laws like antitrust, environmental, fair practice, etc all the time.

Do we know for a fact that every single cyclist in every country at the pro level doped? If that's the case, then Armstrong certainly won the best trophy for being the best cheater among the cheaters who are competing on level playing field. What kind of message are we giving to our kids?

[citymama]

He encouraged others to dope , trafficked drugs, had doctors on staff to supply it, his wife was a courier. He threatened those who wanted to expose him. It's not just everyone did it, his influence helped make the culture what it became.

Exactly. And the level of subterfuge was incredible. It's not your 1980s minor league doping scandal. He's the undisputed top dog in the Tour de Dope.

[squimp]

At this point, the fact that he was amazing athlete starts fading away. He may have just been the best cheater. Other people who did the same thing got caught. I think it's really sad and definitely erodes the character and prestige of the sport for me.

[Nicsmom]

So what do you do if a whole entire sport is corrupt? Stripping the man who got the most money and glory from that is a good start.

But I see it the other way around- finding a scapegoat ( not that he's innocent but he's the only one paying for a crime committed by many) is a way of deflecting collective responsibility.

[crl]

This makes me really sad.

Catherine

[TwinFoxes]

He encouraged others to dope , trafficked drugs, had doctors on staff to supply it, his wife was a courier. He threatened those who wanted to expose him. It's not just everyone did it, his influence helped make the culture what it became.

Exactly. He took it to an entirely different level. He was the head of the snake. And his claim to fame was racing clean, and if people questioned that he'd come down hard.

[sntm]

I don't understand the value, as a fan, of enjoying an athlete and/or a sport that is essentially false. You aren't appreciating the athleticism and excellence of the human body then. So he can ride x amount faster doped up - if he was bionic and on a jet-powered bike, he'd ride even faster, but where's the fun in that? Where is the awe if he didn't do it from his own power?

I have been amazed at how harsh the penalties are, but I think they are 100% deserved.

[Naranjadia]

It seems that not only was he doping, he was instrumental in strong arming people into going along with it. It really seems he was a ring leader. At least according to things I've read, including this NY Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/sports/how-armstrongs-wall-fell-one-rider-at-a-time.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

I remember when Floyd Landis first admitted to doping and said Armstrong did too. Armstrong pretty much set out to destroy him. I also don't believe he stopped fighting because he was tired of the fight or couldn't afford it. His goose was cooked. $150 million? Yeah, he could afford to fight


He encouraged others to dope , trafficked drugs, had doctors on staff to supply it, his wife was a courier. He threatened those who wanted to expose him. It's not just everyone did it, his influence helped make the culture what it became.

:yeahthat: Metaphorically, it reminds me of anti-mafia investigations. You don't try to bring down the small-fry, you go for the ringleaders. I read most of the NYT article mentioned above and a few others. Some of the people who cooperated were recalcitrant and I'm sure a few were quite afraid.

The fact that he would depart by the back entrance of a hotel when it was rumored that anti-doping official was there for a random test and leave the country/forfeiting his berth in the race just takes to another level to me. One article described all the systems he had for evading or beating the tests.

[daisysmom]

I guess I'm a cynic but what bothers me about all of this is that doping is so rampant in professional cycling that his stripped titles will most likely go to someone else who was also doping.

This is pretty much what I think too.

[daisysmom]

He encouraged others to dope , trafficked drugs, had doctors on staff to supply it, his wife was a courier. He threatened those who wanted to expose him. It's not just everyone did it, his influence helped make the culture what it became.

Agree wholly!

[AnnieW625]

But, I keep thinking that his field of competition was likely equally guilty of doping. I think the whole thing is possibly hypocritical. It really doesn't bother me that much. Eta- the stripping of titles is what doesn't bother me (well, actually it does bc I don't think he's alone in his actions); I still think he was an amazing athlete.

:yeahthat: I heard on an NPR story last week that he was the one who decided to step down from Livestrong.