WWYD: Red-shirting in unusual circumstances (Long)

[MommyofAmaya]

I'm hoping that writing down the details of this issue will help me come closer to a solution. If I get some advice in the process, even better. I've made several posts leading up to this one, but I have never spent the time getting ALL the details out.... mostly because I am still figuring them out myself. Thanks for any comments then or now.

DD (1st grade) attends an academically advanced IB magnet school (IB) which is 70% lottery-entry (30% zoned). Incoming magnet applicants must pass a GT test for entry. It is about a 20-25 min commute each way without traffic. The school is amazing and we were blessed to get in. They have 4 extended days (7:45-3:15) and one short day (7:45-12:45) per week.

DS is a summer birthday and will be 5 on 7/21. Cutoff is 9/1. He started attending Montessori school on Aug 1st. He does not like it and begs me to go back to a play-based program daily. He doesn't feel like he gets enough time to play. He is young-acting, ie. cries when he doesn't get his way (often), has difficulty sharing, is sensitive to tone, impulsive, can't sit still for very long, thrives on physical touch, etc. He is academically on target though.

GT designation will be easier if he enters "on time" but if he is not emotionally ready during K, IB may fail to renew his magnet application for 1st+ and we will be S.O.L. as our neighborhood school is not an option. Entry into other desirable magnets is difficult to impossible after K.

I am tempted to hold him back for these reasons and this is where it gets complicated. I posted about this recently when I was told that the district was not allowing red-shirting, but I recently found out that it is up to each individual principal. It is apparently common at a couple nearby schools but not at IB. In fact, there are MANY summer boys in DDs class.

If we hold him back, we will have to find a private Kindergarten or preschool to put him in. Our options for this are:
1) Keep him in Montessori. This will be the easiest option. He hates it though and it is really pricey.
2) Private Kindergarten- he will have to pass the Gesell screening and I don't know if he will since it measures emotional readiness and that is our concern with him.
3) Play-based preschool- I think he will love this, but it is a longer commute which will make it a total of 2 hours and 20 minutes every day (Right now it is almost 2 hours after 2 drop offs and pick ups).

If he applies to K on time, he may not pass the GT test and will not be admitted.

If he does pass the GT test, there is still a chance that he may not get selected in the lottery for one of the sibling spots.

If one of these things happen, we will have to decide whether to send him to a different public kindergarten (a magnet school) or the options above. He will then have to apply again for entry again at IB for 1st grade when they open up an additional class (but GT designation will be more difficult). If he doesn't get in at that point, we will have to move to a totally different area as houses zoned to this school cost 10X ours. Thus, if we apply in Kindergarten we get TWO chances at entry.

The most important thing is that he attends this IB school at some point. The commute to two different schools would be impossible in perpetuity since I can't do more than 2+hours of commuting after I go back to work.

I recently decided to get him tested via the Gesell (kindergarten readiness) screening and let that be the determining factor but the administrator said that results were not accurate unless it was given within the 6 month window preceding K. Magnet applications are due earlier than the test can be administered (in Jan).

WWYD with your kiddo in this scenario? Unfortunately, I think I've confused myself even more.

[wellyes]

It sounds like he belongs in the play based preschool, so, that is what I would be inclined to do.

[AnnieW625]

First I would talk to the principal about red shirting at the IB school.

Then I would have him apply to the IB magnet for next year and get him tested as you never know if you don't at least try. If he gets in that is great, and i would have him
give it a try.

I would apply for the other magnet program if you think that would be a better fit for him. I think it would be smart if he is able to go to a regular magnet school kindergarten and then either reapply for kindergarten at the IB magnet or have him test into 1st grade at the IB magnet.

If your DS goes to the other magnet would it make sense to move to that area so at least one school is close to home? Woukd this magnet school work for DD1 as well? If you moved to the area where the other magnet school is would that cut down on your commute since you would just be dropping off your DD?

What besides academics makes this IB school so important? Is it connected to a middle school or high school that can only be attended by students who attended this IB magnet school?

eta: if you decide that redshirting is okay I would do the play based preschool. If he is not happy at the Montessori then I would look at moving him back to his current preschool.

[MommyofAmaya]

First I would talk to the principal about red shirting at the IB school.

Then I would have him apply to the IB magnet for next year and get him tested as you never know if you don't at least try. If he gets in that is great, and i would have him
give it a try.

I would apply for the other magnet program if you think that would be a better fit for him. I think it would be smart if he is able to go to a regular magnet school kindergarten and then either reapply for kindergarten at the IB magnet or have him test into 1st grade at the IB magnet.

If your DS goes to the other magnet would it make sense to move to that area so at least one school is close to home? Woukd this magnet school work for DD1 as well? If you moved to the area where the other magnet school is would that cut down on your commute since you would just be dropping off your DD?

What besides academics makes this IB school so important? Is it connected to a middle school or high school that can only be attended by students who attended this IB magnet school?

This inner-city school district is overwhelmingly bad with a few stellar standouts and this is arguably the best elementary school in the greater metropolitan area: extremely ethnically and economically diverse, awe-inspiring PTO and fundraising capabilities, great test scores, fantastic after-school program options, amazing teachers, etc. Every parent in the district wants to send their child here, unless they are committed to the super-prestigious ivy-bound private right down the street (this one is out of our league). It all boils down to parental involvement I think. I don't think that any other school would be a better fit but we have to have back-ups since the lottery system is a gamble (even with sibling priority).

When DD applied to IB, we applied to 11 other magnet schools. She was admitted to 5 or 6 of them. Since I don't know which schools he may be admitted to, it is difficult to consider moving DD or our household at this point. We wouldn't consider moving unless DS is not accepted to IB during the 1st grade admissions process (no repeating public K allowed).

[KpbS]

I would go play-based preschool at any acceptable preschool that is closer to your home or DD's school (common drop-off time/place). The commute already sounds like a killer.

[MommyofAmaya]

I wish there were another play-based preschool that he could enter for the first time at 5yo, but the only one I've found is even further away. It does appear to be REALLY great though.

I'm finally starting to feel the consequences of raising a family in the inner city. Nothing in our area will suffice.

Oh, and thanks for reading and responding!

[LizLemon]

To me, the 2-hr daily commute to the play-based school sounds like a deal-breaker, especially if the reason for the school is the lack of emotional maturity. That sounds like a fun commute. :tongue5:

To be honest, I don't know what I would do in your situation. If I were living in a big city, like you seem to be, I would be highly tempted to move to an area where the school situation isn't so treacherous.

[MommyofAmaya]

To me, the 2-hr daily commute to the play-based school sounds like a deal-breaker, especially if the reason for the school is the lack of emotional maturity. That sounds like a fun commute. :tongue5:

To be honest, I don't know what I would do in your situation. If I were living in a big city, like you seem to be, I would be highly tempted to move to an area where the school situation isn't so treacherous.

Well the total commute back and forth including drop off/pick up is nearly 2 hours per day right now. Adding in the play-based preschool would add another 20 minutes a day to that (for a year at most).

[AnnieW625]

When DD applied to IB, we applied to 11 other magnet schools. She was admitted to 5 or 6 of them. Since I don't know which schools he may be admitted to, it is difficult to consider moving DD or our household at this point. We wouldn't consider moving unless DS is not accepted to IB during the 1st grade admissions process (no repeating public K allowed).

Yeah I wouldn't move at all until you at least know what he is doing for 1st grade so once he is in kindergarten or at least know that he won't be at the IB school if he doesn't get into first grade there.

[o_mom]

I would consider switching him now to a play-based program (not an hour away, though) and I would go ahead and enter him on time to the IB school. I think Montessori is a great program, but not a fit for some kids and really, not a great choice (IMO) for a one-year placement anyway. It sounds like he would be on the younger side, but not overwhelmingly so at the IB school. I would explore the back up options in case he doesn't get in for K.

[Snow mom]

I would probably add the extra 20 minutes to the already 2 hours a day in the car. That's such small beans in terms of extra time and it sounds like the play based program would be best for him. If you need to make a decision on all this now I would try to switch back to the play based school asap. When do you have to decide if he will go to K on time by? Or when is testing to be completed by for K readiness? It seems like a few months may make a difference at this age.

[Simon]

1. Leave the Montessori and go to play-based. Ds1 also didn't like his M experience, for different reasons, and I wish we hadn't stayed through the whole year.

2. Plan to send him "on time" to the IB school, knowing that if it is as good as you say, they will have things in place to help kids who are intellectually/academically ready but a little behind emotionally.

Honestly, what you describe is not out of line for any typically developing little boy. If it is truly this school or bust, then take his spot and do everything you need to keep it.

[chlobo]

My son went to a Montessori school and hated it and my only regret is that I did not pull him out earlier than I did. By having him go to a school that he really doesn't like you run the risk of him developing a strong dislike of school.

ETA: I don't think that not liking Montessori school makes him seem "young". My daughter also didn't like Montessori and she was a November birthday. Some kids just do well with it and others don't.

[AnnieW625]

.....ETA: I don't think that not liking Montessori school makes him seem "young". My daughter also didn't like Montessori and she was a November birthday. Some kids just do well with it and others don't.

I saw this a lot in college when I worked at one and I nannied for a couple of different families whose children attended the school. It was better for some kids, but not for others.

I should have also said in my two prior posts that the behavior your son is doing at 4 seems pretty a typical for all kids at that age. My 6 yr. old who is well behaved at school and never causes problems or throws fits when she doesn't get what she wants does it sometimes at home because she knows she can potentially get away with it at home or just wants to test us because we are her parents.

[MommyofAmaya]

I would probably add the extra 20 minutes to the already 2 hours a day in the car. That's such small beans in terms of extra time and it sounds like the play based program would be best for him. If you need to make a decision on all this now I would try to switch back to the play based school asap. When do you have to decide if he will go to K on time by? Or when is testing to be completed by for K readiness? It seems like a few months may make a difference at this age.

Applications for all the magnet programs are due in January. GT testing is shortly afterward. The Montessori requires 45 day notice so we are stuck there through there the end of the year unless I can convince DH to pay 2 tuition payments for the next two months (we are already highly overpaying since we chose this school when I was working full-time and now I'm not working at all) The director at the play-based school seemed more interested in our enrollment if he would be attending for this year and next year so I'll have to see how she responds.

He does seem "young" compared to his peers and he has had a lot of trouble at this particular school. I'm not sure whether to attribute that to his emotional maturity or the school itself.

[Simon]

From reading your post, it sounds like the key thing is to get him into the IB program. Period. If so, then keep that as your focus. Then work on what to do about this year of PreK.

You say you are worried about his ability to keep up if you start him "on time" but it also sounds like the IB school does not like red-shirting. Thus, they must expect to have kids who are still on the cusp of outgrowing behaviors like you describe.

Keep in mind that kids often rise to meet the expectations of their environment and that they do not behave the same at school as they do at home!

Do you intend to return to work? If not, then why not give notice now to the Montessori school and then work on finding a replacement/play-based school. I know you said options are limited in your area. The play school may want you there 2 years, but so what? You get to pick what is best for your Dc.

[MommyofAmaya]

Keep in mind that kids often rise to meet the expectations of their environment and that they do not behave the same at school as they do at home!

Thanks for your comments. My concerns actually arose from how he was acting at school. He is crying and in time-out every single day because of his inability to follow directions. He didn't have these issues in 3yo play-based preschool but he exhibits more challenging behavior at home too these days.



Do you intend to return to work? If not, then why not give notice now to the Montessori school and then work on finding a replacement/play-based school. I know you said options are limited in your area. The play school may want you there 2 years, but so what? You get to pick what is best for your Dc.

I am not returning to work until DS completes Kindergarten, whenever and wherever that may be. Right now I'm definitely leaning in this direction.

[MommyofAmaya]

By having him go to a school that he really doesn't like you run the risk of him developing a strong dislike of school.


This is exactly what I fear is happening right now but I need him in a structured program of some type leading up to the GT testing in January, if we decide do that.

[schrocat]

I'm going to share my experience with DS1's Montessori school (not the same one as yours since that old Montessori would have been a fair drive for you). He did great in the toddler program. We loved the school and the teacher. He didn't do so well in the primary classroom. He was always in timeout and spent a large amount of time sitting outside the office. The difference was the teacher. Not so much the school. My friend in the Katy area also noticed the same thing with the Montessori school her child went to. One fantastic teacher and class, the others not so good.

I only regret not pulling him out of Montessori earlier. For what it's worth we just pulled him out even though we had already paid tuition for the month.

[schrocat]

This is exactly what I fear is happening right now but I need him in a structured program of some type leading up to the GT testing in January, if we decide do that.

Could you homeschool him and provide that structure that he needs prior to the GT testing? If he's crying and in timeout most of the time, he's not really learning at school. At least that's what happened with my own child.

[Snow mom]

I didn't realize that you had decided to leave the job. If you aren't working I would give notice at the Montesori TODAY and consider not having him attend those 45 remaining days. It sounds like the school is the issue--not your DS. While he must eventually learn to fit in at places that don't fit him he's young and his feelings toward school could be negatively impacted by the current situation. If that is unlikely to improve due to modifications the school is willing to make and you can keep him home only losing the tuition you are committed to I'd consider that. Arrange playdates and trips to the library and lots of time at the playground. From my outside perspective that seems better for his future than having him flail at a school that isn't meeting his needs (and is making you question his overall readiness for school.)

[schrocat]

About structure, there are classes at the museums and the arboreteum that you could bring him too. I always wanted to do those classes when I was living in your city but it was always too far away for me living where I lived. It's a fantastic opportunity to do those cool classes.

[AnnieW625]

I didn't realize that you had decided to leave the job. If you aren't working I would give notice at the Montesori TODAY and consider not having him attend those 45 remaining days. It sounds like the school is the issue--not your DS. While he must eventually learn to fit in at places that don't fit him he's young and his feelings toward school could be negatively impacted by the current situation. If that is unlikely to improve due to modifications the school is willing to make and you can keep him home only losing the tuition you are committed to I'd consider that. Arrange playdates and trips to the library and lots of time at the playground. From my outside perspective that seems better for his future than having him flail at a school that isn't meeting his needs (and is making you question his overall readiness for school.)

:yeahthat: I think you can provide structure working with him on your own on top of the play based preschool.

[KpbS]

I didn't realize you weren't heading into a new job ASAP. Since that is the case, I would pull him out of Montessori now (he hates it, isn't learning, you're on the hook for the tuition but oh well--it's just $).

Instead I would do a library storytime once a week, science/kids museum class, a class at a local Y or childcare one morning a week, and one scheduled playdate a week and call it a day. That's 4 mornings of activity plus whatever enrichment type things you may want to do with him at home (tons of ideas here http://totallytots.blogspot.com/ http://www.homeschoolshare.com/level_2_lapbooks.php http://creativepreschoolresources.com/page/2/ and many more out there).

I would put off testing into the IB program (in Jan.) since you feel there is a good chance he would not be ready for K next fall. Test next Jan. and apply for the magnets and see what happens. Make your decision from there.

[MommyofAmaya]

About structure, there are classes at the museums and the arboreteum that you could bring him too. I always wanted to do those classes when I was living in your city but it was always too far away for me living where I lived. It's a fantastic opportunity to do those cool classes.

We have made great use of the local resources thus far, and luckily, since the IB school does an early release day every week, we still have do these things every Wednesday. This is one of the most significant reasons I don't want to move out of the district/city. I'm not convinced I'm cut out for homeschooling though.

So sorry your son had such a difficult time at Montessori too. Thanks for sharing.

[MommyofAmaya]

I didn't realize you weren't heading into a new job ASAP. Since that is the case, I would pull him out of Montessori now (he hates it, isn't learning, you're on the hook for the tuition but oh well--it's just $).

Instead I would do a library storytime once a week, science/kids museum class, a class at a local Y or childcare one morning a week, and one scheduled playdate a week and call it a day. That's 4 mornings of activity plus whatever enrichment type things you may want to do with him at home (tons of ideas here http://totallytots.blogspot.com/ http://www.homeschoolshare.com/level_2_lapbooks.php http://creativepreschoolresources.com/page/2/ and many more out there).

I would put off testing into the IB program (in Jan.) since you feel there is a good chance he would not be ready for K next fall. Test next Jan. and apply for the magnets and see what happens. Make your decision from there.

Thanks for these resources. I'll check them out and use them to supplement whatever situation we end up in. Fall conferences are on Monday at the Montessori school and I am interested to hear what his teacher has to say.

[MommyofAmaya]

The new magnet applications were just released and red-shirting is indeed prohibited for GT magnet schools for the first time this year. There are 9 guaranteed sibling spots for K. I personally know at least nine families with incoming Kers next year, and that is only families with siblings in the first grade... so it will take a miracle to get one of those spots. Will be back for Mojo when he is scheduled for GT testing in Jan.

At the Montessori conference, his teacher was shocked that he was unhappy. She said that he had made significant improvements in behavior and academics. She said that she would try to do things differently to try to keep things interesting for him and so we decided to wait and see and it seems to be working. He now only rarely complains about work being "boring" and he likes going to school most of the time. I'm still inclined to switch him to a play-based school in January, but now I know for sure that he needs to be in a program that will prepare him well for testing and K and has the possibility for private-K if necessary .....still haven't found a program that meets all the criteria-that isn't Montessori.

[AnnieW625]

I wouldn't switch him from the Montessori program because he seems to be going well now especially if he is happy and asks to go to school. I just wouldn't want to upset the apple cart again.

If I were in your shoes I might be relieved a bit that there will be no redshirting for the elementary school because that means he'll only be tested against other 5 yr. olds, and a few almost 6 yr. olds who didn't make the cut last year because they had post Sept. 1st birthdays. Also you are one of the 9 sibling families so that isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

Thanks for the update, and good luck!

[MommyofAmaya]

Some of you have contacted me via PM regarding these issues, so i thought that I would update the thread with the newest information regarding HISD and red-shirting. They have just backed out of their implementation of the new requirements in the GT schools. My head is spinning.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/HISD-parents-puzzled-by-policies-for-overage-4083875.php?t=761ff9e20a3ac2cf54?t=761ff9e20a3ac2c f54

[sste]

Do they age-norm the test? So what I mean is do children need to meet a standard for entrance to a gifted and talented program based on their age (including redshirts but also everyone to eliminate disparities between younger and older).

If they do not age-norm that is outrageous IMO for a public school. They are giving all of the children whose parents can afford an extra year of pre-k/daycare/sahp a huge advantage to get into a special, highly desirable program that sounds like one of the few quality kindys in your area. I mean, I hope it all works out well for your son. But as a policy matter it is a terrible idea to not age-norm, if that is the case, and to allow redshirting into a gifted and talented program!

[ast96]

After my experiences and keeping in mind that I have three boys, two with summer birthdays, and two in the gifted programs already and I am sure the youngest will be too --

I would apply to the IB school, have him tested for GT, and see how it goes. If the IB school is not big on redshirting, it will be used to summer birthday boys. GT testing is based on age, not grade. If he is GT, it should be apparent no matter his age.

Once you go through that process, I would make my decision based on the outcome. But all of my kids would have preferred a play-based pre-K 4 and did fine in academic Kindergarten (birthdays are 6/20, 3/20, 8/8).

[MommyofAmaya]

Do they age-norm the test? So what I mean is do children need to meet a standard for entrance to a gifted and talented program based on their age (including redshirts but also everyone to eliminate disparities between younger and older).

If they do not age-norm that is outrageous IMO for a public school. They are giving all of the children whose parents can afford an extra year of pre-k/daycare/sahp a huge advantage to get into a special, highly desirable program that sounds like one of the few quality kindys in your area. I mean, I hope it all works out well for your son. But as a policy matter it is a terrible idea to not age-norm, if that is the case, and to allow redshirting into a gifted and talented program!

The testing is age-normed. The "matrix" is assigned based on test percentiles, parent recommendation, and minority status (Hispanic or Black only) + low SES = bonus points.

[MommyofAmaya]

I would apply to the IB school, have him tested for GT, and see how it goes. If the IB school is not big on redshirting, it will be used to summer birthday boys. GT testing is based on age, not grade. If he is GT, it should be apparent no matter his age.



As of yesterday, this was our plan. Today, with the new information, I am unsure but unlikely to change my mind at this point.