help me humble DH

[boilermakermom]

DH has had an ego problem since I have met him. I have seen him lose friends over it in college, we have fought over it before. I never completely realized how bad it was, until after DD was born. We would end up fighting if he couldn't hold the baby, feed the baby, etc. his way. He would not take direction from me. He had to do it himself and his way. He knows the answer to every question, how to fix every situation, and has a comment for every action or remark I make.

We went tried counseling about a year and a half ago. The therapist basically said he needs to own up to the problems he brings to the relationship. I don't bring/cause all the problems. Throughout the course of counseling, he became slightly more aware of what he was saying, and how he was saying it. Sometimes, that is a big part of the problem. The tones and inflections in his voice, he can be incredibly condescending at times.

I am tired of asking him to repeat things in a different tone to me. I shouldn't have to constantly stick up for myself. I am getting to the point, where I don't want to try anymore. I really don't want to separate, but I don't know how much I can take.

DH is a great person - very caring, hard worker, great dad. I have heard people say that this behavior is common among engineers. I think there are a few engineers, or those married to, on the boards...care to comment?

How do you truly humble someone?

Please do not quote - I plan to delete.

Thanks!

[marit]

You can not humble someone. I am so so sorry you are going through this. Life will just have to smack him upside his head to get it. The only thing I can think of is try more counseling and a different counselor. Hugs.


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My dad, a chemical engineer, was like that. His brain was wired differently. Everything was black and white and it was obvious to him what was "right." Feelings never really fit into his view of life, except he did love fiercely--he just didn't have a way to communicate it. He died before Aspergers was talked about in the mainstream. I'm not saying that this is your issue, just that sometimes its less about ego and more about neurological wiring (which is much harder to fix).

Christine

[California]

Film him (with his permission.) Let him witness for himself how he looks and sounds when he gets condescending.

This is a popular technique for self-evaluation among teachers in my area. While teachers are looking for different things, the principle of it would work for this too. It's hard to judge how you are coming across to others until you see yourself in action.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

i agree with Christine's analysis above..brain wired differently. my dad is an EE and seemed to act similarly, and i know he fought with my mom a lot (and my mom is not an engineer at all, very social, emotional, etc). He was all logic and was totally clueless about being sensitive about certain things, as well as very stubborn and assuming he was right about everything. I think part of it is being an scientist/engineer, part of it was first-born child thing and how he was raised. I am an EE as well as DH, and in grad school etc i have come across many people (professors, students, etc) like you describe. extremely smart, but sometimes say the most tactless things. some people just have zero filter on what they say, and they're all math/science and have zero tact/social skills. I am sort of used to it, though i can imagine it's much harder when you are married to someone like that. There is a character on the Big Bang Theory - Sheldon and that pretty much is an exaggeration (or example?) of what some scientists/engineers can be like.

anyway, have no tips on how to humble someone, at least not in a way that is practical (ideally, i wish all male engineers could take 3 months off work and stay home full-time with 2 children under 2 and be responsible for cleaning, cooking meals, etc but that is just a pie-in-the-sky fantasy.. LOL). all i know is i think i was extremely humbled by being a SAHM for ~ 3 years. growing up i could sense my dad did not really value all what my mom did at home (and my mom cooked meals from scratch every day, cleaned every day, etc), and i sort of grew up thinking that being a SAHM was for somewhat uneducated/unmotivated women, taking the easy way out. I ended up being a SAHM unintentionally (we moved and i couldn't find a job, got preggo with DS and figured i'd SAH for a while). All i can say is that it was extremely humbling and eye-opening and i am grateful now to go back to work because i don't think i have the mental capacity to be SAH long term (kudos for those who are, i wish i could). I swear staying at home with my kids is the hardest thing i've ever done, probably because of the way i am...i have an easier time working in silence, alone, not being hounded constantly. I'm sure many men, especially those who are scientist/engineers are the same way, though they'd never admit it because they really have no idea how hard it is bc they've never done it.

[boltfam]

I am married to an engineer as well and he is very much the same way. As a pp said, I think it is because they see things in black and white and don't realize that their way isn't always the "right" way b/c sometimes there isn't a "right" way.

Unfortunately, I don't know that there really is a way to humble someone. I would suggest continued counseling and wish I had better advice. :hug:

[sweetsue98]

Dh and I just had a conversation last week about delivery. I asked him to be aware of his tone of voice when speaking to me or the kids because it sounds so mean and rude. He claims that's just the way he is and I shouldn't think that of him. I'm not sure either one of us would see eye to eye. He's comes off mad and he says he's not, it's just the way he talks and I should not always jump to the worst case sanario. No good advice but wanted to commiserate.

Btw.. My Dh is an engineer by trade.

[LizLemon]

It sort of sounds like you're asking if there's something you can do externally to change your husband's personality, essentially - or to get him to realize he needs to change. Unfortunately, it is rarely that simple. It sounds like some gains were made in counseling, at least temporarily. Would you both be amenable to going back?

My dad is an engineer and he never seemed the way that is being described - just wanted to stand up for the less condescending engineers out there!

[Kymberley]

DH is that way. He's a pharmacist who was going to be an engineer. I will say that he is not as bad as he used to be. His change occurred because he hit rock bottom with another character flaw that I won't get into. He had to have treatment, and he continues with it and will for the rest of his life. Seeing one character flaw with open eyes tends to shed light on other flaws. It can get better, but I don't think it's something you can force to happen. I do think therapy will help. Good luck.

[lhafer]

DH is a Chem E and is that way. It's something that I have to check him on every once in a while.

Something that DID humble him greatly (but unfortunately I don't think will be an option for you) is a seminar that he did for work - his work paid for it because it's like $10,000 for a week long seminar!

But this seminar company has several of his coworkers, higher ups, and those that report to him complete a survery anonymously about him - how he treats them, his working relationship with them, how they see him as a person, how he can improve, and his strengths.

During the seminar, he was given those surverys, and it was an EXTREMELY eye opening experience for him!! He thought he was doing x,y,z just right, and those surveys gave him information that was the truth - it just wasn't HIS truth. So after that they meet with psychologists and strategists on how to better the behaviors that need work, and how to continue building his strengths.

All I can say is that he is completely different now. He has a different attitude on life in general - a much better one! He puts family first now instead of work. And after 6 months, those same employees were asked again to survery him - and ALL of his scores improved greatly, which meant he was adjusting his attitude towards others at work too.

At home, I call him on his behavior right then and there. Otherwise is a wasted effort. We've been together for 17 years, and married for 15 of them. And now, if I had to put him on the spectrum, I would say his has Aspergers. And my 6 year old daughter is this.close to being diagnosed with it as well...and she's just like him.

ETA: I do know other engineers who are not this way - who are much more socially appropriate and outgoing. But the majority of people with engineering minds are just wired a little differently.

[MizMojoLaveau]

No advice but I just want OP to know you are not alone! I will be closely watching this thread and hoping there is another answer other than therapy because I know my DH (and probably others like this) would NEVER go to therapy. Like was mentioned, I guess the first issue is getting them to recognize there is a problem in the first place.

FWIW, my DH is not an engineer, but an attorney and former military. While he has all of his life stood out and had a super magnetic personality with a "following" of supporters and friends, He was recently called "arrogant" at work and this seemed to surprise him. I thought hearing this would be good for him, but he just blows it off and speaks even more condescending about his coworkers now.

I feel for everyone who is in a similar situation, as it is terrible. It does also seem impossible to try to prevent DCs from being this way. I am fighting this battle now also. Crazy thing is, I could split my marriage up over it, but I would still expect DCs to be that way. I think they could be around DH 5% of the time and still pick up on it (they idolize him).

[hellokitty]

Op, I know the type you are referring to. My dad is one of them (physician, horrible to work with, esp if you are an allied med hcp, he openly treats them like crap, and is infamous for it) and speaks this way to us (wife and children). My mom gets it the worse and I get it bad too, because he's a woman hater. I honestly feel like he has a personality disorder and would love to drag him in to get a psych consult, but I know he'd never agree to it, but would rather blame the problem as the rest of us, not him. I have come to accept that he will never change and he cannot see that he pushes everyone away by acting like this, and it makes him more upset. One of dh's co-workers is exactly like this as well. Basically, know-it-all, difficult type of person who do not play well with others and is in a constant state of misery and drags everyone down with them. DH is not in engineering, but his line of work does involve a lot of (bio and physics), his line of work has more than it's fair share of ppl with this type of personality, even he admits this and some of the biggest challenges of his jobs aren't his job itself, but dealing with ppl like this who are his co-workers and superior (surgeons).

I don't have much advice, but lots of empathy for you. I don't know if it will wake up your dh if you or a therapist tell him that he will be all alone if he keeps this up. Dh's coworker is already in this situation (divorce was very messy and drawn out and he was the one who was resistant and in complete denial that anything was wrong). My mom has somehow stuck with my dad, but my siblings and I don't want much of anything to do with him due to his toxic personality. I do not know if ppl like this are capable of understanding that they are their own worst enemy. My best advice if he will not seek therapy is for you to see therapy in order to cope with him and stay sane.

[maestramommy]

DH is an EE and while he isn't like this, there was a short spell a couple of years ago where he would sometimes speak to me like I was slow in the head. Now I may have mommy brain but I am not stupid and I told him so. He was totally unaware that he had been doing it but said it was unacceptable so I should call him on it whenever it happens. He hasn't done it (much) since.

I do have an XBF who was like this though. Also engineer who worked in his family business. He was very black and white, and would take it as a breach of faith if I didn't go along with his idea. We had a disagreement once while playing team scrabble and after we talked it out I began to realize the way his mind worked and that it was going to be a problem long term. It was almost impossible for him to understand that people and the world weren't always about logic and black and white.

My mom's last boss was a TYRANT and he was this kind of personality to a T. Brilliant guy, but extremely impatient with people who couldn't keep up with the way his mind was going.

I agree that perhaps the only way OP's Dh will understand his behavior is to see it on video. Then ask him how HE would feel being talked to in such a fashion.

[swissair81]

My husband is kind of like that, but he's not an engineer. I have a (female) cousin who is an engineer, and whole she's matter of fact, I've never heard her be condescending to anyone. I think it's a personality type, not a job description.

[twowhat?]

DH (not an engineer) is like this in terms of tone of voice (not an ego problem - just tone of voice). I have big problems with his tone of voice and delivery. And I know I'm not the only one. I've had to keep telling myself that he doesn't mean to be condescending - his tone of voice just comes across that way (and this is true - if he meant to be condescending, then he never would have married me because he'd have truly thought I was stupid). There's no way he can change his delivery - it's not as easy as changing other behaviors. It is just how he speaks. It's a big personal struggle for me because I lack a lot of self-esteem. I'm also embarrassed by it in public because he sometimes just sounds so mean (though I think that being insecure myself kind of makes it seem worse to me than it really is). For example at a restaurant if he wants to point out bad service, he will do so not-so-surreptitiously (while I cringe). I on the other hand avoid confrontation at all cost and if I thought it were bad enough to say something, I'd rather pull a manager aside in a private corner.

Hugs to you.

[sariana]

OMG this thread is a total eye opener. My DH is an engineer by training, consultant by profession, and military. He thinks it is his life's work is to figure out what's wrong with me and fix it--or rather force me to fix it.

The irony is that I think I'm the one with Asperger's (and DS has a diagnosis).

I'll be watching this thread, too. Counseling isn't really an option for us because DH has no time. (That's part of the problem, honestly.)

[codex57]

Yes, the worst seem to be engineers. I don't think it's engineering that's the problem. I think these people have personality disorders and they can still thrive in careers like engineering, which is why you find so many engineers like this. But not all engineers are like this. Most of the engineers I know aren't. But yeah, I know a ton that are like that. I think with doctors, it's totally different from just seeing things as black and white and not allowing for grey areas. Doctors tend to be pure ego and thinking they are god. They can turn it off if they deem you "worthy" of their respect. The engineers don't seem to be able to do that, which is partially why I think it's for a different reason.

[kellij]

My dad is an engineer and also MacGyver, but he's not condescending about it. He's nice to everyone and if he does think his way is better than another, he is self-aware enough to make fun of himself about it (although I typically agree that he's right in that situation). The only thing that makes him different from other people, besides the MacGyver thing, is that he is freakishly good at math, disturbingly so.


I'm sorry your dh is treating you like that, it sounds really hard to take!

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Yes, the worst seem to be engineers. I don't think it's engineering that's the problem. I think these people have personality disorders and they can still thrive in careers like engineering, which is why you find so many engineers like this. But not all engineers are like this. Most of the engineers I know aren't. But yeah, I know a ton that are like that. I think with doctors, it's totally different from just seeing things as black and white and not allowing for grey areas. Doctors tend to be pure ego and thinking they are god. They can turn it off if they deem you "worthy" of their respect. The engineers don't seem to be able to do that, which is partially why I think it's for a different reason.

YES, this, exactly!! Both DH and I are engineers, and i can tell you, DH is one of the meekest people I know (to the point that i worry he gets taken advantage of, stepped on, etc). He is always worried about offending people (to the point that it irritates me, LOL). I agree it's more of a personality issue...those that are very scientific minded and see things as black/white, right/wrong tend to thrive in engineering, where you need very good analytical skills yet not as much social skills are needed.

[sste]

Well, I don't know about humble but it sounds like he has a social skills deficit. Are there adult social skills classes??? I know in my husband's dept, a few doctors have been ordered to see a therapist or in one case go to bully school for workplace bullying.

I am curious: do you think if you could somehow videotape he would see it in himself? Or would he think it was fine?

It may be that he perceives that being the fixer, the one who knows how to do things is what he contributes to the marriage, his way of taking care of you and your family. In an odd way, he might be worried about whether he would still be needed and valuable in his family if he didn't do these things.

Just some thoughts . . .

[codex57]

It may be that he perceives that being the fixer, the one who knows how to do things is what he contributes to the marriage, his way of taking care of you and your family. In an odd way, he might be worried about whether he would still be needed and valuable in his family if he didn't do these things.

Just some thoughts . . .

There's always hope that if he sees and recognizes how he's acting badly, the "fixer" in him will see it as a challenge to "fix" himself. A lot of my engineer friends saw a physical flaw in themselves and went hardcore into exercise to "fix" their flaw. Properly unleashed, that engineer mindset is pretty damn impressive. Exercise charts, plans, etc. I just draft along and use their work. :)

But yes, there is the danger that they refuse to accept that anything is wrong. On the radio, there was an ad for tonight's Big Bang Theory where Sheldon refuses to change and relax/go on vacation with hilarious results.

[MSWR0319]

DH is an engineer with an MBA, and not working as en engineer right now, but I see this in him all the time. He'll come home and not get why people think he's butting in or minding his own business. While discussing it with him, he truly thinks he is helping to fix the problem, not butting in. I've also had to deal with the tone issue. He'll say things to me that will seem rude and I'll ask about using that tone and he always tells me he doesn't know what I'm talking about. I really think he doesn't get it. He tends to think he's right until proven wrong, but I see that characteristic in oth of his parents, but he will accept he is wrong when he relizes it ( but that could take awhile!). Codex is right about fixing I think. I've been telling DH he should start exercising for months. Last week he realized he's gained a lot of weight, and now has a detailed plan of what he's doing with an ap that tracks what he eats,etc and he's always checking it and looking at charts etc. He just had to realize it on his own. FWIW, DH also has ADHD but refuses to admit it so that might be part of his problem too :) he's a very kind and sensitive man, he just doesn't know how to show it.

[BabbyO]

I'm an engineer. I know the type. A good friend married a guy who sounds very much like your husband. Ironically, he is like that to everyone except my friend (most of the time - he sometimes acts like you described to her, too).

Anyway, I think engineers and hard-science/math type professions tend to work well for people who's minds work like you described. That is not to say all engineers are like that...but that you are more likely to find people like that in the engineering profession.

I don't think you can change someone. But I DO like the PP that suggested filming him. He probably doesn't even see it...so maybe filming it would make him more aware.

just my 2 cents.

[Globetrotter]

OMG, this could explain dh! He is also an engineer and he is very abrupt and rude. I hate it because I am sensitive and it stresses me out, but he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. I think that's just how he talks! He does this more when he is stressed out, and he also goes around lecturing my family (ok, they could use some lecturing but at least be nice about it!).

Oddly enough, he is very well liked amongst his peers and subordinates. He is a pain with his superiors, however, or at least in the past he used to question them constantly. He can also argue with a coworker in a very aggressive tone and then talk about an upcoming vacation as if nothing happened. Despite all this, he's done very well professionally and even been sought out for his management skills (whaaaaaat??). I do think he's an understanding boss, as long as they are doing what they need to do. Maybe they all understand each other and don't take offense.

However, I hate it! He talks down to me without realizing it, and sometimes he will scoff at my suggestions. Major know-it-all. I always point it out and I think he has improved over the years - and he's also been humbled by some situations and defers to my opinion more now, esp. as the kids are growing up.

[LizLemon]

The only caution I would suggest about the filming:

If you are pretty confident that the issues with your husband stem from poor social skills or something Asperger's-like the videotaping idea could do something on a spectrum from help to be not terribly effective but would likely be harmless.

If you suspect that your husband's behavior may stem at least in part from narcissism, this tactic may embarrass him and make him act out in a worse way. I'd be cautious doing it all and particularly outside of a containing structure like therapy..

[Jupiter]

I don't think you can change people, by simply trying to change someone you are saying that who they are isn't good enough (which then makes them defensive). You either accept them for who they are or not.

However that doesn't mean people don't change. They have to see it in themselves and want to change. If he doesn't see it, he probably won't see it.

My friend and her now ex tried counseling. The therapist diagnosed him with aspergers, but he denied it. They divorced and he is the way he always was. He lost his wife whom was pregnant and didn't think it was about him at all.

I on the other hand started out as an engineer than changed to a math teacher. I know that I don't see things the way others do. And I know I don't see my behavior the way others do. I was able to see faults only because sad things happened to me and I was willing to listen to what others were saying. For example one of my students told his mom I was hormonal (pregnant, hehe). I thought I was being pretty even tempered. So I asked a teacher who helps in that class and he was like yeah you are a little. But it only helps because not only was I willing to ask another's opinion but also listen.

It's these differences that make me unique and creative. My ex husband (a great, sweet man), I drove him nuts and we argued a lot! My current husband takes it in stride and we never fight. So not only is it how you behave but how others react back at you.

Sorry so long

[nmosur]

Engineer DH here too - I could have written OP's post and added much more. DH gets his from his parents - it's a family thing in his case :-(. Neither parents are engineers but both of them are worse than him. I take credit for deflating his ego some :-)