Run or Huddle: What do your kids practice doing during lockdown drills?

[justlearning]

My boys have had many lockdown drills in their school (before this past weekend). Their teachers always follow these procedures during those drills: lock the classroom doors, put a fabric covering over the window on the door, and then have the kids huddle together in a corner away from the door.

In thinking about this more, I'm wondering why they don't have the kids practice running out their doors to the outside instead? Every classroom has a door to the outside, so it seems to me that most shooters stay within the school building and don't have any other helpers who are shooting kids from the outside. So I think that the kids would greatly reduce their risk of getting shot if they ran outside instead of huddled together in the classroom. I'm thinking about talking with the principal about this to get her thoughts, but wanted to hear first what your schools do?

[crl]

Hide. They lock the classroom door and go to the corner that cannot be seen from the door and hide. I assume the logic is that a shooter could easily shoot from inside through a window at anyone fleeing. I would not second guess school safety measures like this unless you have some kind of expertise or have done extensive research on the topic.

Catherine

[Fairy]

Same as Catherine. Hide. Lock door, hide out of eyeshot. If there is a bathroom in the room, that's where they go. If not, then they hide under the computer desks, as that's who these classrooms are designed.

I would imagine that if I were designing a new school. I'd have Jack and Jill style rooms with an anteroom inbetween to be used for computers, crafts ... and as a panic room. You can't get in, bullet-proof glass, lockdown code. Some of our rooms actually have these designs, but the anteroom is not a panic room of any sort. But that's what I'd like to see in the future. Until then it's hide. We have no door to the outside other than our kindy classes. Tho it has occurred to me that shoving kids out a first floor window wouldn't be a bad idea if it came down to it.

[TwinFoxes]

I've never thought about it before. Hmm...well probably the liability of having a bunch of kids running out of the door onto the playground outweighs any potential benefits to the drill. I also bet it would freak kids out to be told to run out of the classroom, I just picture mass chaos, falling, trampling.

[justlearning]

I've never thought about it before. Hmm...well probably the liability of having a bunch of kids running out of the door onto the playground outweighs any potential benefits to the drill. I also bet it would freak kids out to be told to run out of the classroom, I just picture mass chaos, falling, trampling.

I didn't mean run literally--it could be done just as orderly as a fire drill. My point is that evacuating the building quickly if a shooter is in the building seems to be a safer option in my opinion if classrooms have exterior doors than waiting like sitting ducks inside the building. (At Columbine, 18 students waited in the library for 5 minutes before being shot.)

I wouldn't be trying to recommend this as procedure. I'm just considering emailing the principal to get her thoughts on why they don't do this and to get their security officer's input. Trying to google it now to see what I can find...

ETA here's a link to a recent article indicating that there's at least some disagreement on the best way for kids to be trained to deal with a shooter: http://abcnews.go.com/US/school-safety-experts-disagree-lockdown-procedures-newtown-shooting/story?id=17978485&page=2#.UNIYVm-CkUw

[o_mom]

Ours has two levels of lockdown. I checked today when I was there. One is just the exterior is locked - nobody in or out. I think blinds are closed, but instruction continues, kids can go to specials, etc., but not out to recess. The other is full lockdown. Interior doors locked, hide away from doors and windows, lights out, windows covered. Doors do not open until an administrator or LEO tells them to. They also have an evacuation plan through the class window if needed. I would assume this would be if a LEO came and told them to go out through the window (or in a fire situation where they could not exit the hallway).

[TwinFoxes]

I didn't mean run literally--it could be done just as orderly as a fire drill.

Oops, sorry!

[o_mom]

I didn't mean run literally--it could be done just as orderly as a fire drill. My point is that evacuating the building quickly if a shooter is in the building seems to be a safer option in my opinion if classrooms have exterior doors than waiting like sitting ducks inside the building. (At Columbine, 18 students waited in the library for 5 minutes before being shot to death.)



I think it has the potential to be more dangerous. Instead of having to get into locked rooms, the shooter can just wait for more targets to come out. Additionally, it puts students in the way when the police show up, adding to the chaos. The police then have to asses each person and determine if they are a threat. In lockdown, the number of potential threats is greatly reduced. Remember too, that an 11 yo 5th grader can be close to the size of a small adult - not as easy as saying don't shoot the kids. You also have all the teachers and support staff.

The Columbine library was one of the examples of how not to do a lockdown. An unlocked room with large windows and good visibility.

[jse107]

Evacuation offers less accountablity and cover if there is a human threat (harder to keep track of kids, give directions, and let the emergency responders assess the situation). If there is a person in the building threatening harm, they don't typically take the time to try to get into the locked doors or rooms where they can't see anyone. Plus, being huddled and quiet controls panic. Being in the hallways or outside where kids/teachers can view everything will only increase panic and hysteria.

As horrible as the situation is in CT, I think it would have been far worse if more children had been in the hallways or easily accessible to the shooter.

[egoldber]

Remember too, that an 11 yo 5th grader can be close to the size of a small adult - not as easy as saying don't shoot the kids.

Yes, most of older DD's classmates are taller than me.

Also, in many cases, the shooter is a student. It is much easier for law enforcement to look for the person/people moving in a school on lockdown than to figure out who the shooter is in a sea of people.

[AngB]

Good question.

I thought about this during our lockdown drills when I taught hs.

At the high school level especially, an 'intruder' is most likely (historically) to be a student...who presumably KNOWS the building and the drill. All the doors at the school I taught had glass windows. A gunman could easily shoot out the window or break it and unlock the door and find everyone "hiding" or sitting ducks. (And since most of these mass shootings are planned in advance, you can bet they will have thought about it.)

My plan B, never spoken to students, and we'd obviously only do it if we had to, was to do like you suggest and get the heck out of dodge through the windows...if we had to. Our building was such that not everyone had windows (and no doors to the outside from classrooms),and there was a 2nd floor. I still think I'd take my chances out a second floor window vs a crazed gunman with assault rifles.

I think it's only a matter of time before we declare these intruder drills relatively pointless. (They are a really new phenomenon in schools and I don't think very thoroughly thought out...unless someone forgot to tell me plan b.)

ETA: Unless the rationalization is the lockdown will at least slow them down to hopefully only a very few classrooms until SWAT/police can arrive, and cross your fingers you aren't in the unlucky area. The kid who ran in CT likely would be dead now if he hadn't ran...I'm not so sure that "hiding" and waiting is the best plan if it really came down to it.

[o_mom]

I think it's only a matter of time before we declare these intruder drills relatively pointless. (They are a really new phenomenon in schools and I don't think very thoroughly thought out...unless someone forgot to tell me plan b.)

From some of the reports, it sounds like they actually prevented things from being much worse at Sandy Hook. At least one story I have seen has the shooter trying to get in a room and yelling for them to open the door before moving on.

Yes, a shooter could shoot into a classroom, but as someone pointed out, they know they have limited time and look for the unlocked rooms.

[AngB]

From some of the reports, it sounds like they actually prevented things from being much worse at Sandy Hook. At least one story I have seen has the shooter trying to get in a room and yelling for them to open the door before moving on.


Maybe their doors didn't have the glass windows? At the school I'm referring to,where I taught and also had attended, it would take someone probably 30 seconds or less to break the window and open the door themselves. If all the doors are locked, or they expect them to all be locked, I doubt they would move on if they can easily break in. If you are going to be sitting ducks with a predictable 'intruder scenario', they better be darn sure those doors would take a very long time to open. This is the only case in the US that I know of where the 'intruder' was really an intruder and not a student, a student is going to know the drill and probably be expecting it or prepared for it.

[PZMommy]

As a teacher, I have wondered this myself, especially this past weekend. At my school, we all have doors that open to the outside. Those lock. However, all our classrooms connect inside the main building, and the door in between the rooms, does not lock. So basically if a person got into one classroom, they could easily just go room to room, and not have to worry about any locks. To me is seems crazy to just sit there and wait. We have no closets, bathrooms, etc to hide it. We literally would be sitting in a corner, very easy targets. I honestly think we'd have a better chance to make a run for it and head out to the yard and into the parking lot. That is the plan B in my head, but not one the school would ever endorse, or at least at this point they haven't.

[boolady]

DD has practiced and knows both, and that they would be instructed what to do. They have practiced lockdown, where their teacher locks the door, covers the window, and they get into (1) their coat/backpack cubbies, which are large, wardrobes-sized floor to ceiling units); (2) if for some reason that's not a good location, under the reading table in the corner (it's very dark and hard to see); or (3) last ditch, behind a large easel that's backed into a corner.

They've also practiced evacuation, which involves calm walking from the building to a pre-designated church about 1.5 blocks away. I can see in DD's set-up why this could be useful, because depending on the scenario, there might be classrooms that could safely evacuate while others should hide in place. There are 2 exit doors within about 10 steps of DD's classroom, for example, so if an intruder was in a different part of the building, the primary wing could be fairly quickly emptied, or vice versa. DD's school, which is an older, in-town three story brick schoolhouse, also has a front and back set of stairs, which I never thought of as useful until now, as it might provide a way for teachers/kids to evacuate if they knew someone was headed up/down a particular staircase.

[fivi2]

I am probably misremembering but wasn't there a shooting in Arkansas where they waited outside during a fire drill?

Even if I am wrong about that, in the situation with more than one gunman they could set up a scenario where one waits outside. With nowhere to hide and people and kids running around panicked... I don't think there is a great answer here but I can see why they do it the way they do.

[StantonHyde]

The designated response for hospitals and universities--per many experts in the field is:
1. Get Out
2. HIde OUt
3. Take Out

So, yes, get out of the area if you can--e.g. without going throug interior halls. So if the classroom has a door to outside, go.

If you can't do #1 then Hide out--huddle and hide with doors locked and lights out

If the shooter enters the room where you are, have objects in hand to throw at him--staplers, phones, anything to throw at and surprise him. could give you enough time to overtake him.

We are required to complete "Code Silver" training annually and we watch a video detailing these responses.

[justlearning]

The designated response for hospitals and universities--per many experts in the field is:
1. Get Out
2. HIde OUt
3. Take Out

So, yes, get out of the area if you can--e.g. without going throug interior halls. So if the classroom has a door to outside, go.

If you can't do #1 then Hide out--huddle and hide with doors locked and lights out

If the shooter enters the room where you are, have objects in hand to throw at him--staplers, phones, anything to throw at and surprise him. could give you enough time to overtake him.

We are required to complete "Code Silver" training annually and we watch a video detailing these responses.

I really like this--it makes sense to me. The last part about "take out" corresponds to some information I was reading this morning about training kids to try to take on the shooter once in the room by throwing stuff to distract rather than just sitting there passively.

As I was saying, to me it would seem to make sense to make getting out a priority over hiding out if all the classrooms have exterior doors. But I understand the points made by other posters in this thread about why it might not work well to do that. It's a complicated issue.

[maylips]

I am probably misremembering but wasn't there a shooting in Arkansas where they waited outside during a fire drill?

Even if I am wrong about that, in the situation with more than one gunman they could set up a scenario where one waits outside. With nowhere to hide and people and kids running around panicked... I don't think there is a great answer here but I can see why they do it the way they do.

You are right. In that case, the kids pulled the fire alarm and waited in hiding for the classes to come outside for the drill.

I don't know if there is any perfect scenario but you guys who say the shooters are often students who already know the drills make excellent points.

DD's kindy class hides in the bathroom and the lights in the classroom are turned off. This plan makes sense if the shooter is trying to get to any class he can and can't figure out what kids are actually in class and what kids are in PE, music, etc. It doesn't make sense if 911 isn't called quickly or if the shooter knows the drill already and has a basic sense of class schedules.

When DD first told me about this "code blue" a few months ago, I was so saddened to hear her explain it to me. She was very matter-of-fact, but to hear her tell me, in her still somewhat baby voice, how the girls with "lighted" shoes couldn't move while they were hiding so the "bad guy" couldn't see the lights under the door and know where they were, was heartbreaking. I had to remind myself that my parents' generation had to practice for nuclear bombs and that each decade had its' own demons.

[SnuggleBuggles]

They've never had one.

[justlearning]

They've never had one.

Really?? What grades are your kids? I can remember DS' school having them for at least the past two years. Their school always emails parents after the drill to let us know that they had it that day.

[o_mom]

Maybe their doors didn't have the glass windows? At the school I'm referring to,where I taught and also had attended, it would take someone probably 30 seconds or less to break the window and open the door themselves. If all the doors are locked, or they expect them to all be locked, I doubt they would move on if they can easily break in. If you are going to be sitting ducks with a predictable 'intruder scenario', they better be darn sure those doors would take a very long time to open. This is the only case in the US that I know of where the 'intruder' was really an intruder and not a student, a student is going to know the drill and probably be expecting it or prepared for it.

Yes, but when you have a 3-4 min police response time, the shooter is more likely to move on rather than mess around breaking into a room when they don't know if there are even students inside (which is why they hide away from the doors and turn out the lights).

As a PP said - look at the shooting where they were out for a fire drill. Now imagine that in an intruder scenario. There is no perfect plan that will account for every possible situation. Even an armed guard can be taken out. What would be 'best' in one situation could prove deadly in others. Given that our drills are designed by law enforcement, I'm guessing they are going with the plan that gives the best odds in the most situations.

[PZMommy]

The designated response for hospitals and universities--per many experts in the field is:
1. Get Out
2. HIde OUt
3. Take Out

So, yes, get out of the area if you can--e.g. without going throug interior halls. So if the classroom has a door to outside, go.

If you can't do #1 then Hide out--huddle and hide with doors locked and lights out

If the shooter enters the room where you are, have objects in hand to throw at him--staplers, phones, anything to throw at and surprise him. could give you enough time to overtake him.

We are required to complete "Code Silver" training annually and we watch a video detailing these responses.

This makes a lot of sense. Is there any sort of source you could link me to for this information. I'd love to pass it on to my principal.

[JElaineB]

This makes a lot of sense. Is there any sort of source you could link me to for this information. I'd love to pass it on to my principal.

I've gone through Violent Incident Survival Training on my college campus and they taught the A.L.I.C.E. method:

A - Alert
L - Lockdown
I - Inform
C- Counter
E - Evacuate

But they stressed right from the start, that "E" should be the first thing. They said if you can, RUN. During the training they did an intruder simulation, in which the intruder entered the room (we hid), then they had members of the police force burst into the room with guns. It was quite scary. If you google "violent incident training" or "ALICE training" or similar you should find a few good sites for information.

[citymama]

They've never had one.

Same here. I hope we will do these from now on, and in a way that learns from all these events. In our case, the kids have had earthquakes/fire/natural disaster drills but never a lockdown drill.

[new_mommy25]

Double post.

[new_mommy25]

I asked DD about it today. She is in 1st at a public school and she has been doing lockdown drills since kindergarten. She said they lock the doors, close the windows, turn out the lights and hide under their desks.

I was in high school when Columbine happened. We started having lockdown drills after that incident. Prior we only had fire drills.

[new_mommy25]

Double post

[nfceagles]

DS's school does lock down drills. They hide in the cupboards (large wardrobe size things) and the bathroom. All the classrooms have interior AND exterior doors. I have often wondered the same thing. That the kids would be better off running out the door and seeking help from passerbys or nearby houses, but I can understand why that's difficult for the school's to recommend and teach. I guess I hope and believe that most teachers would take it upon themselves to do something different if the circumstances warranted it. I think that's about all you can ask as the situations will never be predictable and are not always avoidable, not matter how much we want them to be.

[StantonHyde]

Here is a link to the Active Shooter Training provided at a college campus. If you can access the video it should be good.

http://www.campusalert.utah.edu/ShotsFiredOnCampus_highbw/index.html

[Cam&Clay]

We have been doing lockdown drills for years in our schools. Lock the door (if there is one...our local elementary school has no doors and no windows in most classrooms), cover the window(s), and hide. One of the biggest mistakes you see is having students huddle together in a corner. Being spread out is better. Also, being parallel to the door or window keeps a shooter from being able to shoot through the door/window and hit anyone.

[teresah00]

. I would not second guess school safety measures like this unless you have some kind of expertise or have done extensive research on the topic.

Catherine

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[georgiegirl]

DD (public 1st grade) hasn't had one. When I volunteered on Monday I noticed that way to lock/ unlock the door to her room is with a key. There is a window next to the door that a shooter could break, but it wouldn't help him open the door, and the window is pretty narrow and there's a metal bar horizontally, making it nearly impossible for an adult to crawl through (especially if holding a large gun.). The room has no closets, only supply cabinets. They could get out the window (1st floor) if necessary.

We were reassured the school has lockdown procedures, but the school will not tell us about them since they don't want it to become public knowledge.