Aging pack-rat parent

[Nechums]

I haven't posted in a while, but I really need some advice. My house growing up was always messy. Not dirty, but just cluttered with newspapers, magazines, records, VHS, etc. But ever since my dad passed away 3 years ago, it's turned into a disaster zone. I just visited there yesterday with the kids and all of the toys are out, on the floor, the exact way the kids left them last June! There are random avocado pits growing God-knows-what all over the kitchen. There's a black and white TV sitting on the bottom of the stairs because that's what I used in June to block DS2 from climbing up...and it's still there!

The house is filthy and she refuses cleaning help. I had to put a changing mat on the couch, not because I didn't want to get the couch dirty, but because I didn't want to get DD dirty!

My mom is a hoarder. Always has been. She doesn't throw away for fear that she'll need the item.

Downsizing is not an option, so I need to somehow deal with the situation in the house. Even if she were to downsize, we'd still need to go through everything. I've tried talking to her, but she's in denial and takes offense anytime I mention it. I'm thinking maybe an outside company would need to come and help her decide what to throw out and what to save and what to donate. Does this even exist?

Any thoughts on the matter? Has anyone been in a similar situation? Thanks!

[karstmama]

no btdt, but unclutterer dot com might help you figure out some ways to get started.

i'm interested in hoarding for some reason, and something that struck me is that they don't 'see' the mess. they 'see' each individual thing, not the heaps of crap. sometimes it helps to take photos to show them - sometimes that penetrates in ways that actually being inside the hoard doesn't.

[missym]

Hoarding is now recognized as its own mental disorder. I would recommend talking to a mental health professional who is experienced in treating people with hoarding problems before you decide how to proceed. The way you approach your mom can make a big difference in how successful you'll be at getting through to her. Good luck - BTDT!

[newnana]

yep, agree with both PPs, it's a mental disorder and they don't see the mess.

It is SOOOO hard.

Pictures could help. The denial and taking offense sound like this would come better from a third party. There are definitely services for this, but she has to be willing to let them in, and I don't know how you get there.

Does she let others into the house? Just curious.

[mytwosons]

Yes, this is a mental disorder. I also think it is somewhat common in seniors - as they begin to feel they are losing control of their aging, hanging on to stuff is something they can control.

My mom began hoarding mail as her health declined. Thankfully, their house was clean, but the dining room was filled with piles of bank statements, magazines, etc. I took a week off work last summer and cleared it out. It was painful for her and I was a terrible daughter. But, they were moving out of the house, so it had to be done.

Now, in their new place, she still has the tendancy, but it is much easier to keep it under control. I think that is the key for us - don't let it get past a certain point.

[westwoodmom04]

I am worried less about the pack rat aspect and more about the failure to clean things up for more than six months. I would have your mother evaluated for early stage memory/dementia issues. My grandmother suffered from dementia and in the early stages it manifested itself in a failure to take care of her house and herself as she once had. Alternatively, she may be depressed. This may be an overreaction, but I'd rather err on the side of being overcautious than not, particularly if your mom lives on her own.

[KonzaPrairie]

I could have written your post! I've been wanting to write your post for awhile now!

Growing up it was always excuses, "if we had a bigger house we could clean it up faster". Well now they have a bigger house and it's the same ugly mess. My parents are constantly blaming each other for the mess and have been for 20 years now. I don't understand how they haven't tried to get help in 20 years. Now I live 2 states away so when I do see them I do see them I hate to spend the short time we have together bringing up this painful issue. I know they don't 'see' the mess and I also think they have some self confidence issues where they don't think they 'deserve' a clean, clutter-free house. I'm certain some of their issues stem from being poor a majority of their lives. They are doing fine now and have great jobs, but mom still thinks she needs 4 can openers in case there are 4 people opening cans at the same time (seriously).

I hate how their bad habits were passed on to me. I've spent the last 5 years trying to overcome this. Flylady is starting to work for me but it's a slooooooow process.

It is so difficult to talk to them about it because they get soooooo defensive. I've tried suggesting Flylady, and I'm about to suggest this new de-clutter challenge I found: http://www.home-storage-solutions-101.com/organized-home.html

I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears though. If you find something that works, please let me know!

[Nechums]

Thanks for the responses. I should have mentioned in my original post that my mom is totally "with it" and I'm not considering dementia as a possibility. She day trades her own portfolio, attends many classes and spends time with a lovely group of widows (sad, but at least they all have each other!).

She's not embarrassed to have company over and doesn't even attempt to clean up. She just moves the papers to one side of the table so that they have room to eat on the other side.

I agree with a PP who said that how and when I discuss this issue with her can make all the difference. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Also, I'm an only child so there's really no one I can talk to in my family other than DH who is in complete agreement.

I know that she respects DH more than she respects me and values his opinion. Im wondering if I should go down that route and have him speak to her.

[missym]

We took a psychologist along with us when we talked to her the first time. She was not happy about it, but having that 3rd party there really added some legitimacy to what we were saying. He was an extremely non-confrontational person, so I think that made it easier for her. He was able to be very matter-of-fact and keep emotions from running too high while we developed a plan. I'm sure that wouldn't work in every case, but it did for us.

[westwoodmom04]

Honestly, if you are going to have dh talk to her about cleaning up, I'm not sure you will have much luck if she has already refused cleaning help. If she is truly not cleaning her house at all for months at a time, that does suggest a larger issue (be it hoarding, depression, or just a lack of energy to attack the problem) because it is well outside normal behavior, even for "packrats". Perhaps you could speak to a professional who deals with hoarding issues, as others have suggested, and they could give you suggestions about how to best assist her.

[KLD313]

I don't think it's a matter of her not being "with it". If she had hoarder tendencies all her life it's very common for a trauma to send her deeper into it like your fathers death. Hiring a company to come in and empty out her house may not help her but make things worse, cause her anxiety, etc. She needs to talk to someone.

[megs4413]

I feel your pain. All of our parents (mine and Dh's) have this problem to some degree (my dad the worst) and it has been a source of stress and conflict for as long as I can remember.

In my dad's situation, his house was foreclosed on and he didn't have time to get out all of his stuff. that was a GOOD thing, IMO. I'm sure his apartment is cluttered, but I do not know where he lives and have never seen it. I suppose when he dies I will have to hire a crew to clear it out. It will all go into the garbage.

My mother had to move in with us for financial reasons. I told her she had to get rid of most of her stuff. Still, she moved a truck full of stuff that was the SAME SIZE as the one we used to move our household of 4! RIDICULOUS! we are moving again in a couple months and she will be required to eliminate about 75% of what she has. if she doesn't like it, she can live on her own....oh wait, no she can't. my house, my rules. cruel, but i don't really care. She is trying to learn to value the PEOPLE in her life more than the STUFF. She really has come along way the last few years.

My MIL still lives on her own and her house is absolutely disgusting. We used to try to help clean up, but it's just too frustrating to see it go right back the way it was in a few short weeks. She doesn't want help, though, so what can you do? It's her life.

[lizzywednesday]

Thanks for the responses. I should have mentioned in my original post that my mom is totally "with it" and I'm not considering dementia as a possibility. She day trades her own portfolio, ...

This sounds like my stepfather, though. He is very sharp mentally, but he has anxiety & OCD that express themselves primarily as hoarding; the secondary expression is a heap of e-mail forwards that I auto-delete. The PP (missym?) who is offering advice on how to approach a mental health professional is spot-on. When his anxiety meds are properly adjusted, he is able to keep the house neat.

It's very hard on my mother, who has a BSN and is less comfortable with living in clutter, especially now that she has grandbabies who love to come & visit in the summertime. (They live in a shore town, very near the beach.)

Also, I would like to mention that his ex-wife died very suddenly about 6 years ago this past December and left no will. He so needled his 3 adult children about the "stuff" he thought he'd left with his ex-wife that his eldest daughter is alleged to have "thrown out" that his daughter no longer speaks to him - or to her brothers. It's a sad situation on many levels because he and they were estranged for so long after the divorce that it was optimistic to see them getting to know each other again. (I mean, it's so bad that I had to offer to seat them at separate tables across the room from each other to get them to RSVP to my wedding 5 years ago!!!)

Good luck!

[Globetrotter]

My parents are hoarders, not like the ones you see on TV but they have a lot of clutter and accumulate a lot of stuff. I live far but, with help from their good friends, we have cleared out quite a bit. I recently organized all their paperwork, and he finally appreciated the difference it makes to have files vs. piles and piles of papers in a haphazard envelope organizing system. I recycled PILES and PILES of stuff - receipts from the 80s.. you get the picture.

I also donated a lot of items. There was a LOT of resistance, and I had to sneak out some things. such a waste, but something had to be done. I don't think they will ever be cured without a major intervention but we can try to control it. Their dear friend has worked with them to curb the buying, and that has helped also.

In your case, I would be more concerned about the things like rotting avocado pits and the fact that she never cleared the toys in months. I wonder if she is depressed and overwhelmed after your father's death. :hug:

I know it is stressful. At least she seems to have an active life, which is great for her mental health. Hoarders don't see their mess as others do.
My parents had stacks of boxes and bags in their basement, to the point that you couldn't walk in it, and they just didn't care.

ETA: Anxiety and OCD runs in our family, too.

[ellies mom]

That is just really tough. My MIL and SIL are basically hoarders. It is complicated by the fact that my MIL seems to have an undiagnosed mental illness (I suspect persecutory delusions) and my SIL is suffering from denial. And we live 600 miles away. My husband's way of handling the situation is to drop by alone when we get to town to see how the house looks and because it hasn't gotten any better, he decides he doesn't want the girls inside. Then tries to talk his mom into leaving the house and coming to lunch or basically anywhere so she can see the girls but she refuses (because of the whole mental illness thing). Instead we pick up his sister and take her out with us a few times while we are in town. We weren't able to visit for a few years and in that time the hoard started to really encroach on their living space (you don't have to walk on stuff, they just keep moving the couch away from the wall and piling more stuff behind it, so there is a ever shrinking clear area in front of the TV). The girls were not happy to be there and did not want to go back. So DH decided that he simply will not bring them over because he doesn't want them to have bad memories of their grandmother. And because she won't leave the house, it is turning into a lack of memories period. My husband feels helpless so he mostly lets the subject drop. It is really hard to deal with it from so far away especially considering the mental illness issues involved. So mostly, he just makes sure the house has not passed the line from full to unsanitary. At that point, I guess, we'll come up with something different.

Anyhow, no real advice other than possibly talking to a professional first to get strategies on how to approach the situation.

[hellokitty]

OP, I am really glad you posted this. I was actually going to start a b*tch post about my parents. They have always been hoarders to some degree, most esp my dad (product of WWII mentality and his family was literally known as the town cheapskates according to my mom), but the bad part is that in the past 15 yrs, my mom has joined along with him. The only reason the house wasn't so junky looking when we were living at home, was because we were like child slaves and did all the cleaning. As soon as we went off to college, everything went to crap. Their house is not just cluttered, it is disgusting, to the point that I do not take my children there until they are old enough to walk, b/c the floor is so gross (smells like a dog piss pot and my dad goes into a rage if you try to open a window to get any fresh air into the house). Everything is coated in a layer of grime and my mom keeps science experiments in her fridge, unless I see her MAKE the food, I won't eat it, since she is known to pull leftovers out from IDK how long ago, kwim? My dad is angry that we don't visit him more often, but the combo of the disgusting and dangerous nature of his house. He has had a pack of new toilet bowl cleaner sitting in what is supposed to be the study, since before DS1 was born, who will be 9 yrs old soon. Not to mention he leaves medicine everywhere and when I ask him to put it away so my children can't access it, he yells at me and tells me its my baby's fault if he gets into his meds that are left lying around. Don't forget he's a pediatrician, so you'd think he'd realize that a toddler doesn't have the developmental ability to do safeguard himself from stupid adults leaving their dangerous things around! Plus, due to his extremely unpleasant personality, we have virtually no motivation to visit. Mostly, it's for my mom's sake and we also dread that we pretty much almost always get sick after we visit them.

My most recent frustration is that my father retired last month and while he did get rid of a lot of stuff. It was like pulling teeth, since he had to donate most of it and he was convinced that it was worth a lot of $. Sorry, but medical office equipment that is over 30 yrs old is not valuable, esp since he doesn't take care of his stuff. He brought home SO much (junky) office furniture and hired movers to do it (I was surprised they dished $ out to have stuff moved). They were mad that dh and I wouldn't help them move all of this crap, because I refused to do it, so they blame me for them having to spend $ hiring movers, makes sense, right? Yeah, if you are CRAAAAAAZY! When we called my parents on NYD to wish them a happy new year's, my mom asked my kids if they wanted to come over. Then told them, "You can't come over, there is too much stuff, you cannot walk through the house." You might think that this means that they sound aware of their issue, but my mom said it like it was funny, and in the back of her mind, she does know that if I witnessed that, I would nag them about it. My brothers and I were livid when we found out, he was advised our mom, NOT to let our dad bring anything home, but she let him do it anyway. Their house was already pretty bad. Not quite tv hoarder show kind of bad (b/c my mom and us kids have always thrown things out behind my dad's back, otherwise it would be tv show hoarder kind of bad, his siblings are similar and one of them DID have stuff piled up to her ceiling), but it wouldn't take much to throw it into that category, kwim? I always tell dh that if ppl saw my parents' house, they'd know right away that crazy ppl live there. What makes me angry too is that my mom picks at me. My house is clean, it does get some clutter, but I have three little kids and a dog! I remember being so incredibly mad when my mom came over when DS2 was still an infant and started nit picking me, saying that I had a smudge of something on my HW floor. Even DH was offended, our, "smudge" of probably a dropped sippy cup milk, was like a drop in the bucket compared to my parents 100% grimy house! Then she will tell me that her house is much cleaner than my house and my house is too cluttered. My house is NOWHERE as cluttered as her house, so for her to even make that comparison, making it sound as if I am the one who is the problem, not her, is just insulting and makes HER look crazy. My brothers' jaws dropped open when I told them that she says this to me all of the time, basically saying her house is cleaner and more organized than mine. My house is not perfect, but for having 3 kids, it's better than avg, definitely NOTHING like my parents' home.

Now it is even worse, since my dad's hoarding is starting to rub off on my mom and my mom is probably depressed from decades of dealing with his BS (I don't blame her), so can't keep up with throwing his crap away, esp since he is home more often now, so he is always watching. It always has to be behind his back, once when I was in high school, my mom finally bought a new coffee table and donated the old, BROKEN one and my dad made us go back to goodwill to get the old one back! My mom was so embarrassed. They live in a small town, whoever heard of a doctor's wife having to go back to goodwill to fetch a broken coffee table, b/c her husband went into a rage about it? My dad is the main culprit, but my mom is his #1 enabler. Not only is he a hoarder, but he has a bad personality and mood disorder, and part of the reason my mom enables him is, b/c he has such a bad temper and takes it out on her, so she doesn't want to set him off. I'd love to drag him in to get a psych eval, but I know he'd never agree to it. He used to be able to attempt act more, "normal" around ppl (although he has never been normal, we often joke that he's on the spectrum, but it isn't really a joke, he probably IS on the spectrum, he seems to have no awareness of other ppl and his communication skills SUCK), but I've noticed in the past 10 yrs, that he just lets it all hang loose and will go off on crazy rants out in public and in front of guests with absolutely no filter at all. Ppl just stare at him and he has no awareness that he is making an a$$ of himself. He's become so anti-social, I have never heard of a grandfather who refuses to attend his own grandchildren's birthday parties. He was always bad (refused to attend my brothers' and my college graduations and one of our high school graduations, since we weren't valedictorians), so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that he's just as sh*tty of a grandfather as he was a father.

What makes me the most angry is that *I* will be the one who has to deal with all of their crap when something happens to them and they cannot take care of themselves. My brothers both live OOS and are the primary breadwinners. I'm about an hr away from my parents and am the one who has to put up with all of their BS the most often to begin with. My brothers mostly deal with annoying phone calls, but I have to deal with them IRL. We've all been trying to convince my parents to downgrade to a condo, but I know that they won't do it, since they want to keep all of their crap in their large home. The home is in shambles, they have VELVET wallpaper and groovy colored carpet, toilets and sinks. My mom is upset that they will have to do major renovation to sell the house, I am annoyed that she seems to act like this is a mysterious problem, when, "normal" ppl attempt to update their home on a more regular basis, so they don't aren't 35 yrs behind in decor/updates. There is literally NOTHING in their house that I, or my brothers want, it's almost 100% junk. If something should happen to my parents, everything would have to be auctioned off and the house, being in such a poor state would also have to be auctioned off and sold as is. I don't know any other way to handle it, I am not ready to dump over 100K in gutting the house and fixing it up, someone else can do it. There are just too many bad memories. It just makes me angry thinking about this. I wish I could say it was due to them getting older, but my dad has always been like this, and I am 100% sure that it's related to undiagnosed mental illness. My mom does make me wonder about some early dementia, but now that my dad is retired, her stress level has gone up 10x, being trapped with him 24/7, he is literally toxic to her health, but she is in denial about it and gets angry whenever we bring it up.

Anyway, I don't have advice, like you I need advice, but my father is completely unapproachable and crazy, so I don't even want to deal with confronting him at all. I don't like my mil, but at least she is good about trying to declutter on a normal basis. Now if only she weren't a hypochrondriac... the latest antic is that she is convinced that she has a tapeworm. I am sure her PCP is thrilled to deal with her. So, we've got crazy on both sides.

[Ceepa]

I wonder if she is depressed and overwhelmed after your father's death. :hug:


Depression can prevent a person from basic home maintenance and cleaning. Also she may leave the grandkids' toys the way they are as something that cheers her. My mom and MIL both describe being pained to put away traces of DC after we have visited.

[Globetrotter]

ut now that my dad is retired, her stress level has gone up 10x, being trapped with him 24/7, he is literally toxic to her health, but she is in denial about it and gets angry whenever we bring it up.

This sounds like my parents. Retirement has been a challenge for all!

OMG, I could totally relate to your mom (doctor's wife) going back to goodwill to get the broken coffee table. We have to sneak out stuff and he gets mad when he finds out about it, even if he hasn't touched it in years!

[hellokitty]

This sounds like my parents. Retirement has been a challenge for all!

OMG, I could totally relate to your mom (doctor's wife) going back to goodwill to get the broken coffee table. We have to sneak out stuff and he gets mad when he finds out about it, even if he hasn't touched it in years!

Lol, I almost PM'd you about this, b/c I had a feeling you could relate. Yeah, my dad had medical journals from the 70's that he refused to throw away. We would sneak it out and position the trash cans in a way so he could not see the stacks of journals going in and out of the driveway. I mean, seriously, what is the point of keeping outdated medical journals??? NONE! He would keep saying, "I plan to read those." Sorry man, they are outdated, there is NO point in reading them... as you can tell he has very poor time management and organizational skills in general.

I had to try to reason with my mom back in college that the decades worth of consumer report magazines and books were USELESS. She didn't seem to get the idea that those things are only good for a yr or two, since products change so frequently. I told her to stop her subscription and just to go the the library to look it up if she needed to find info, but she thought that was inconvenient (this was prior to the internet being as vast as it is now). I just want to bang my head on a wall when it comes to dealing with my parents.

As for retirement. I don't know how my mother will survive. My father will easily trim off a good 10 yrs off of her life from the stress he causes her on a daily basis. She probably is very depressed, but is also in denial, but doesn't want to be helped and gets angry that my brothers and I don't like our dad, b/c he's an a-hole to her and to us.