Kitchen layout options- would love some input! UPDATED- new layout in #62

[wolverine2]

We're planning a kitchen renovation (and are doing IKEA cabinets) and have hired a designer. I've got 2 options I like right now, but both have strengths and weaknesses, and I'm having a hard time deciding which one to go with.

Our kitchen is small.... 10x12.

Design #1 has the stove on the other side of the room from the fridge and sink- I'd have to walk across the kitchen to dump hot pots, etc, possibly running into traffic. (It's not that far a distance though... probably 6-7 feet. The pro is that it allows for quite a bit more counter space (including one nice long interrupted run) and more room for multiple people to move around. My other little worry about this one is that there is a little bar w/ 2 stools that would be not that far from the stove, so I wonder if the kids were sitting there if they'd feel too close to the cooking?

Design #2 has the stove closer to the sink, with the fridge on the other side of the room. It's much closer proximity for sink/prep/stove, but I lose counter space and if 2 people were trying to cook (which DH and I do sometimes), they would probably be in each others way- or the 2nd person would have to prep much further away.

Anyway, would love to hear thoughts or what you especially value about your layout.

[WatchingThemGrow]

I'd have to see it. can you upload a picture of the floorplan? If you go to gardenweb, you can upload your plans and have them critiqued.

[KLD313]

My cooktop is directly across from the kitchen sink and it hasn't been an issue at all. It never occurred to me to have a sink close to a stove, I'm not sure I've ever seen that. My cooktop is between the fridge and the ovens. Although I've tripped over my dogs walking over to the sink.

[crl]

I'd have to see it. can you upload a picture of the floorplan? If you go to gardenweb, you can upload your plans and have them critiqued.

:yeahthat: If you post the floorplan options, you will get lots of feedback at Gardenweb from people who are even more kitchen obsessed than people here are stroller/Hanna obsessed. You can also post at the Ikeafans forum. They pretty much designed my last kitchen for us--and it was awesome!

Catherine

[wolverine2]

:yeahthat: If you post the floorplan options, you will get lots of feedback at Gardenweb from people who are even more kitchen obsessed than people here are stroller/Hanna obsessed. You can also post at the Ikeafans forum. They pretty much designed my last kitchen for us--and it was awesome!

Catherine

Yes, I was going to try to figure out gardenweb tomorrow, but I haven't figured out how to get a picture up yet, so I'll get on that! But yes, it makes much more sense w/ the floorplan! I guess the big question is how much it matters if the stove is right next to the sink. My brother, who is a chef, says that he likes them more separate, but my mom and MIL like the closer design. I think I may value countertop space and the ability for more than 1 cook more than I value ease due to proximity.

[hillview]

love to see it. That said I'd personally go with option 1. Out oven and cook top are separate and both are about 6 feet from the sink. WRT to the seats close to the stove -- how close? Our bar seats are kiddy corner to the cooktop. The kids are really never at the bar when I am cooking but also they are on the other side. If this is a long term home, I'd do option #1 and if you need to, deal with the seating so that they are not there when you cook til they are old enough.

[sunshine873]

Counter space would be much more important to me than having the stove close to the sink. You want 2 people to be able to be in there working together. You & DH, you and the kids, or even if you're having a party people always want to help out, etc. Without seeing them, I'd vote for #1.

[wolverine2]

ok, trying the pictures here... will go to gardenweb too, but I'm honestly not interested in obsessing too much about this kitchen- anything we do will look a zillion times better than what we have!

Option #1:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405766789.jpg

Option #2
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405766790.jpg

[dcmom2b3]

I'd go with #1, if I'm understanding these correctly. Not only do you have that long run of counter space near the pantry(?) you also have much more usable counter space on either side of the stove.

[KrisM]

With the first one, I'd be afraid of taking something to drain from the stove to the sink and having a kid run to the fridge, or jump off the stool and head out of the kitchen. It's a long distance and it crosses a main traffic path, it seems.

I also think having the fridge closer to the entry is good. Kids getting a drink, or snack, and they won't have to cut through the entire kitchen.

This is Gardenweb's explaination of zones. It might help. http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0508230128712.html

[wolverine2]

I also think having the fridge closer to the entry is good. Kids getting a drink, or snack, and they won't have to cut through the entire kitchen.



I should explain that the entry to the kitchen is at the top, near the stools (and goes to the dining room). At the bottom is the door to the back porch.

[DualvansMommy]

i'll go for option one, as the traffic from stools to fridge/pantry for drinks and snacks is parallel to the stove...so not exactly in your way, if im reading it right?

i just renovated my kitchen and relied on gardenweb a lot!!!! that extra counter space will be invaluable to you. Also, with option one you can have yourself & DH or any other person around in your work space to help out without being in your way. That's really invaluable, coming from a prior kitchen where i did not have that option, which was quite frustrating at times for me.

Good luck!

[JBaxter]

Option one. My last 2 kitchens have had the stove 6+ feet away from the sink and it has never been an issue. I would go for more counter space

[wolverine2]

i'll go for option one, as the traffic from stools to fridge/pantry for drinks and snacks is parallel to the stove...so not exactly in your way, if im reading it right?

Good luck!

Yes, mostly... the stools and fridge would be parallel, but the pantry will be in the back of the kitchen, though we could put a few snack foods in the upper cabinets to the right of the stove, I suppose. My kids are 5 and 8, so I'm not that worried about them not being careful around the stove.

[gatorsmom]

I like option 2. I like that the stove top is out of the line of traffic. I like that the small eat-at bar is much further from the hot stove. I love the proximity of the stove to the sink (for draining heavy stockpots though you have to decide if that is something you do a lot). And while I understand the appeal of a long uninterrupted stretch of prep space, I think small work stations can be just as handy. Also, the kids may want something from the fridge while they are playing in the house or the backyard, so either way the kids will have to cross the kitchen.

[KrisM]

Yes, mostly... the stools and fridge would be parallel, but the pantry will be in the back of the kitchen, though we could put a few snack foods in the upper cabinets to the right of the stove, I suppose. My kids are 5 and 8, so I'm not that worried about them not being careful around the stove.

Are the only doors at the bottom of the drawing? So, you have to go through the whole kitchen to get to the fridge at the top? Or is there a door at the top? I was thinking that was a window, but maybe it's a door?

[crl]

I would go with option 2 to get the range out of the traffic pattern.

Catherine

[wolverine2]

Are the only doors at the bottom of the drawing? So, you have to go through the whole kitchen to get to the fridge at the top? Or is there a door at the top? I was thinking that was a window, but maybe it's a door?

It's a door at the top- to our dining room. (well, an opening, not a door that closes) So there is a door at the top to the dining room and the bottom (to the outside). The door on the side near the back door goes to the basement. So fridge is near the entrance in option 1.

[MommyAllison]

Our kitchen is like #1 and I like it. My ILs have a setup more like number 2 and it gets pretty tight if someone is cooking while someone else is at the sink. More counter space is also very nice!

[squimp]

As a cook I like option 2 better - my sink is by the stove and I like that a lot after having it be a it off walk. I might suggest though that the best design might be having the fridge where it is in 1 and the stove wherein is in 2. That WMD give you some prep space by the stove but then a big prep space on the wall opposite the sink.

[sariana]

I would say #2 hands down except for two things:

1) I don't like that the stove would be visible from the dining room.

2) The dishwasher opens into the walk space to/from the dining room.

Those both are relatively minor, though, compared to the inconvenience (to me) of carrying pots of water and etc. across the room to/from the sink.

#2 is in some ways similar to our layout except that our refrigerator would be over closer to where your stools are. (And we have no door/opening by our stove--our kitchen is in a U shape with the stove at the base of the U.) I like that the stove is "around the corner" from the sink. It is convenient. I tend to gather my ingredients before I start, so I wouldn't be crossing to the refrigerator all that often.

[KrisM]

I'd try to cook a pretend dinner and walk the paths you'd have to walk. I tend to prep between the sink and stove - cut vegetables to stir fry - get them from fridge, wash in sink, cut, put in pan. Chicken from fridge, cut, in oven. Or whatever. I tend to grab a bunch of things from the fridge and have them on the counter and then do the prep and cooking. So, prep and cooking being near each other works for me. I like my panty on the edge so that kids can grab something without getting in my way. But, you could have snack stuff in a drawer near the fridge and solve that issue.

We are redoing our kitchen sometime later this year. I keep moving things around and making signs for where things might be so we can test them out :). I have cardboard boxes in the size of drawers to see if my pots/pans will fit. It's crazy, but it's helping a lot.

[niccig]

We have combination of option 1 and 2

Range opens into walk space and the kitchen is tight as the fridge is in the way of 2 people working and not enough counter space.

We're probably going to move the fridge to open up more counter space and keep range where it is. I've had the range in the walk space for 8 yrs...no issues. I understand why it can be a problem there, but moving it means we sill have no counter space and that is a bigger issue. I have no where to prep. So I would go with 1.

If you post on Gardenweb everyone will say to not do 1 because of the traffic path. I've posted for advice and all their options to move range gives me even less counter space than I have now. I understand why you want to be out of the traffic path, but when you have a small kitchen with a couple of doorways, you can't get the ideal kitchen.

[wolverine2]

I have drawn little people in my floor plans doing things, and I think people bump into each other more in #2. I'm not as concerned w/ the range being in the traffic path, as that's exactly where it is now (and our fridge is right to the left of it right now) and it's not a big deal. Our sink is currently against the back wall, and it hasn't been a problem to walk- I guess it would be slightly farther in design #1.

I think #2 is great for one cook, and I can see how it would be much more efficient. My designer said that what is great for one cook sometimes becomes a problem for more than one person in the kitchen, and that sometimes you have to lose efficiency in order to make room for more people.

I'm still undecided though... everytime I do anything in my kitchen now, I think about what it would look like in the 2 options.

[wolverine2]

What about landing space near the fridge? #1 doesn't have much, and that's one concern I have, especially since I can see us putting a dish drainer on the little countertop there is there.

[o_mom]

I would go with #2, but move the fridge more centered, similar to where the stove is in #1. We have a very similar arrangement with the stove/sink and have never had issues with more than one person cooking. I also like the trashcan option and more counter space next to the sink. The dishwasher placement is not great in #2, but I think #1 is worse for that (ours is placed in a corner like that and I hate it).

[KrisM]

Another thing I dislike about #1 is the blind corner by the dishwasher. You can't put a Lazy Susan or a fold out door for easy access because the dishwasher goes to the corner.

And because the d/w is in the corner, I'd assume you'd put dishes in the cabinets on the end of the run perpendicular to the d/w. Which means whoever is setting the table is crossing between the stove/sink path as well. I like the dishes as close to where we eat as possible so the table-setting kid doesn't get in my way.

[TwinFoxes]

I would go with option 2 to get the range out of the traffic pattern.

Catherine

:yeahthat: Also I like having my range near my sink. But my kids or dogs are constantly in the kitchen, crossing it with a hot pot to drain would be hazardous.

[wolverine2]

I would go with #2, but move the fridge more centered, similar to where the stove is in #1. We have a very similar arrangement with the stove/sink and have never had issues with more than one person cooking. I also like the trashcan option and more counter space next to the sink. The dishwasher placement is not great in #2, but I think #1 is worse for that (ours is placed in a corner like that and I hate it).

But do you have another prep area? I think the counter between the sink and fridge is the most natural prep area, and if someone was using the stove, no one could be chopping on the countertop there- they'd have to go to the area left of the sink. Plus there's not really much room to the right of the stove.

[crl]

Supposedly the most used prep area is always the space between the range and the sink.

Catherine

[o_mom]

But do you have another prep area? I think the counter between the sink and fridge is the most natural prep area, and if someone was using the stove, no one could be chopping on the countertop there- they'd have to go to the area left of the sink. Plus there's not really much room to the right of the stove.

Yes, ours is a 'U' shape, so on the other side of the sink we have a peninsula, which is probably about the size of what #2 has to the left of the sink (so, Ours would turn after the DW in yours. We have a small (12"?) area to the left of the stove, very similar to what you have there in #2. It actually is plenty big for what we need when cooking - set a prep bowl, etc.


Our set up is like this (in my best ASCII art, lol):


CCCCCCCCCC
D
D
S
S
C
C
CCSTOVECC


From the stove to the end is a 12" cabinet, from the stove to the corner is about 9", then about 24" to the sink, 24" over the DW and 60" from the corner to the end of the peninsula. To be honest, though, we only use about 30 inches of the peninsula because it is perpetually covered in piles of paper.:ROTFLMAO: I think the area to the left of the sink in #2 is plenty big for prep while someone is cooking and gives both the stove and prep areas access to the sink. You can see we have the DW in the corner like #1 and it drives me nuts because the dishes are above it in the cabinets so you have to take them out and put them on the counter, close the DW and then put them in the cupboard. We don't have the lost access to the corner that you will have because the other side of the peninsula is open to the eating area, so we have a set of drawers there.

The rest of the cabinets are across from the open end of the 'U' and has a small desk (hate it, never use it), the microwave and the fridge, so no additional counter area there.

[wolverine2]

From the stove to the end is a 12" cabinet, from the stove to the corner is about 9", then about 24" to the sink, 24" over the DW and 60" from the corner to the end of the peninsula. To be honest, though, we only use about 30 inches of the peninsula because it is perpetually covered in piles of paper.:ROTFLMAO: I think the area to the left of the sink in #2 is plenty big for prep while someone is cooking and gives both the stove and prep areas access to the sink. You can see we have the DW in the corner like #1 and it drives me nuts because the dishes are above it in the cabinets so you have to take them out and put them on the counter, close the DW and then put them in the cupboard. We don't have the lost access to the corner that you will have because the other side of the peninsula is open to the eating area, so we have a set of drawers there.


Ok, I see that is very similar to the measurements we would have in #2. So you're saying that someone can be at the stove and someone can be working to the left of your sink and they don't bump into each other? I just outlined everything in tape on my floor, and though I see how 2 people could physically fit there, you'd only have to move inches to bump into each other. But yes, the other person would have ample counter space to the left of the sink.

[o_mom]

Ok, I see that is very similar to the measurements we would have in #2. So you're saying that someone can be at the stove and someone can be working to the left of your sink and they don't bump into each other? On paper, it looks like they would.

No, someone at the stove and someone to the right of my sink (in your case, someone at the stove and someone to the left of the sink). Someone to the left of my sink plus someone at the stove is possible, but not great. It does happen when we have things like Thanksgiving where we have 3-4 people trying to prep and cook, but mostly, if DH and I are both working, one is at the stove or left of sink, one to the right of the sink.

It's hard to read the measurements on yours, but it looks like there would be at least 45" to the left of the sink (DW plus another cabinet). That is a pretty big prep area. We have a little bit more, but not all that much. Remember that that 'corner' area of the countertop is not really accessible - it gets very little use here and mainly is appliance storage, etc. in #1 you still only have about a max of 45-48" in one run of counter.

I guess I think #2 isn't perfect, but the pros outweigh the cons for me compared to #1. My list would look something like this (* these are ones that I would consider the biggest reason for #2):

#1 Pros - longer counter area in one space, fridge closer to dining area
#1 Cons - Stove across traffic pattern and away from sink and fridge*, DW in corner*, no trash pullout, no cabinets near dining area, remaining counters are smaller areas (so one longer, but three smaller areas)

#2 Pros - Stove not far from sink, DW not in corner, trash pull out, cabinets near dining area, three medium sized counter areas
#2 Cons - Fridge not near dining area, smaller counter just next to stove, no single large counter area

[wolverine2]

No, someone at the stove and someone to the right of my sink (in your case, someone at the stove and someone to the left of the sink). Someone to the left of my sink plus someone at the stove is possible, but not great. It does happen when we have things like Thanksgiving where we have 3-4 people trying to prep and cook, but mostly, if DH and I are both working, one is at the stove or left of sink, one to the right of the sink.

It's hard to read the measurements on yours, but it looks like there would be at least 45" to the left of the sink (DW plus another cabinet). That is a pretty big prep area. We have a little bit more, but not all that much. Remember that that 'corner' area of the countertop is not really accessible - it gets very little use here and mainly is appliance storage, etc. in #1 you still only have about a max of 45-48" in one run of counter.

I guess I think #2 isn't perfect, but the pros outweigh the cons for me compared to #1. My list would look something like this (* these are ones that I would consider the biggest reason for #2):

#1 Pros - longer counter area in one space, fridge closer to dining area
#1 Cons - Stove across traffic pattern and away from sink and fridge*, DW in corner*, no trash pullout, no cabinets near dining area, remaining counters are smaller areas (so one longer, but three smaller areas)

#2 Pros - Stove not far from sink, DW not in corner, trash pull out, cabinets near dining area, three medium sized counter areas
#2 Cons - Fridge not near dining area, smaller counter just next to stove, no single large counter area

It would be 42" to the left of the sink. There would be a trash pullout in #1- it's at the end of the long countertop. Even though it's not near the sink, I kind of like how it's in the middle of the kitchen (and at the end of the prep area). I'm also wondering in #1 if we could just flip the dishwasher and the cabinet to the left of the sink, though that would make even less room for prep between sink/stove. I do think the d/w in the corner is not a good idea.

The pros and cons are helpful... here's some I've thought of too-
#1 pro- more storage right near stove for pots and pans (2 sets of big drawers not in #2), more room for more people using counter space- several possible prep areas, including lots of space to either side of stove, nice view from dining room and possibility for lots of glass in upper cabinets.
#1 con- have to walk across possible traffic to drain pots in sink, seating area not that far from stove

#2 pro- range out of traffic area, nice area next to fridge for landing space, toast/tea setup, d/w not in corner, counter depth fridge is nice look.
#2 con- 2nd prep area is far away from anything else, can't have 2 prepping between sink/stove, will see stove from dining area, less storage space/drawers, harder to imagine where to put dishes

[wolverine2]

Supposedly the most used prep area is always the space between the range and the sink.

Catherine

I think that makes the most sense, which is why #1 seems to give so much more prep room, even though it's not that much more counter space.

[wolverine2]

If you guys will humor me, I'll post the 3D pictures too...

Option 1:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405774534.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405774532.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405774531.jpg

Option 2 in next post...

[wolverine2]

Option 2:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405774581.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405774555.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405774556.jpg

[o_mom]

It would be 42" to the left of the sink. There would be a trash pullout in #1- it's at the end of the long countertop. Even though it's not near the sink, I kind of like how it's in the middle of the kitchen (and at the end of the prep area). I'm also wondering in #1 if we could just flip the dishwasher and the cabinet to the left of the sink, though that would make even less room for prep between sink/stove. I do think the d/w in the corner is not a good idea.

The pros and cons are helpful... here's some I've thought of too-
#1 pro- more storage right near stove for pots and pans (2 sets of big drawers not in #2), more room for more people using counter space- several possible prep areas, including lots of space to either side of stove, nice view from dining room and possibility for lots of glass in upper cabinets.
#1 con- have to walk across possible traffic to drain pots in sink, seating area not that far from stove

#2 pro- range out of traffic area, nice area next to fridge for landing space, toast/tea setup, d/w not in corner, counter depth fridge is nice look.
#2 con- 2nd prep area is far away from anything else, can't have 2 prepping between sink/stove, will see stove from dining area, less storage space/drawers, harder to imagine where to put dishes

If you could move the DW without a ton of rework, then #1 would be better. Losing that space in the corner along with the DW blocking access to the cabinets when open would be a big downside to me. I think you would have less storage space in #1 because of losing that lower corner cabinet space.

I just went in and stood at my stove. We could (and have) had someone working between the sink and stove with someone at the stove. It is tight, but not impossible. We have our coffee pot and toaster in that corner and there are plenty of times where I'm doing that while DH makes eggs at the stove, etc.

Think about your stove and the burner placement as well. Our 'best' burner (has multiple heat options, highest heat) is on the front right of our stove, so the person at the stove tends to stand to the right which makes it seem tighter than it really is. I think most stoves I have seen have it set up this way - the highest power or most flexible burner is that right front one. OTOH, in your setup, that front right burner would actually put the person out farther making that space between the stove and sink in #2 more accessible.

Can you map the things out in the space? Put a cardboard stove where it is in each one and pretend to cook. If you can't do it in the existing kitchen, try setting it up in the dining room or living room for a day or so to see how you all would fit.

[niccig]

I would go with option 1. Look at all that prep area. Yes you have to cross the traffic area, but you have more space either side of stove to put a pot, check traffic line is clear, then walk across and put it on counter by sink then to sink. Your kitchen is very similar to mine and I do that ALL the time.

Option 2 has so little counter space, it's got what I have now and I HATE IT WITH A PASSION. I can't have DS cooking with me in the kitchen. DH tries to get in a help and everyone is bumping into each other. It's a PITA every single day.

I would though in Option 1 get rid of the stools. In small kitchens, have sitting space is just a waste of space, and I agree that the stools are too close to the stove. I also dont' like the fridge in option 1. I think it'll be better at entrance to kitchen, so people can get things and then go w/o getting in the way of the cook (which is how my kitchen is). Actually my kitchen has all the cons of your two options - stove have to cross traffic line to sink, no counter space and fridge in middle of kitchen so everyone comes into the space and gets in my way!

[o_mom]

I like the 3D pics!

I'm not a fan of glass front cabinets because I like to hide my mess, but if you have nice stuff it can look great and that's a plus in the first one. Could you do the glass fronts over by the fridge in the second one?

I see now what you mean about the seating next to the stove. It does seem close. (ETA: Agree with Nicci - ditch the seating and either have nothing or see if they can do something else there.)

The fridge looks a lot smaller in the first one, is that just an illusion? Would you go with french door fridge in that one as well? I ask because our fridge opens in front of a doorway like that and when it dies we are getting either SBS or French door because it completely blocks the path when open.

[wolverine2]

I would go with option 1. Look at all that prep area. Yes you have to cross the traffic area, but you have more space either side of stove to put a pot, check traffic line is clear, then walk across and put it on counter by sink then to sink. Your kitchen is very similar to mine and I do that ALL the time.

Option 2 has so little counter space, it's got what I have now and I HATE IT WITH A PASSION. I can't have DS cooking with me in the kitchen. DH tries to get in a help and everyone is bumping into each other. It's a PITA every single day.

I would though in Option 1 get rid of the stools. In small kitchens, have sitting space is just a waste of space, and I agree that the stools are too close to the stove. I also dont' like the fridge in option 1. I think it'll be better at entrance to kitchen, so people can get things and then go w/o getting in the way of the cook (which is how my kitchen is). Actually my kitchen has all the cons of your two options - stove have to cross traffic line to sink, no counter space and fridge in middle of kitchen so everyone comes into the space and gets in my way!

Fridge is not far from entrance in option 1... did you mean 2?

We're giving up an eat-in option- right now there is nothing under the windows and we have a table there. We eat there all the time and never eat in the dining room, even though it's just through the doorway. So that will be an adjustment for us to eat in the dining room (it's not formal though). I wanted a kid to be able to sit and do homework while I'm cooking. This is pretty essential, so I want to have stools somewhere.

[o_mom]

Fridge is not far from entrance in option 1... did you mean 2?

We're giving up an eat-in option- right now there is nothing under the windows and we have a table there. We eat there all the time and never eat in the dining room, even though it's just through the doorway. So that will be an adjustment for us to eat in the dining room (it's not formal though). I wanted a kid to be able to sit and do homework while I'm cooking. This is pretty essential, so I want to have stools somewhere.

What's behind the wall where the stools are? Can you open up a 'window' and have the seating on the other side?

[niccig]

Fridge is not far from entrance in option 1... did you mean 2?

We're giving up an eat-in option- right now there is nothing under the windows and we have a table there. We eat there all the time and never eat in the dining room, even though it's just through the doorway. So that will be an adjustment for us to eat in the dining room (it's not formal though). I wanted a kid to be able to sit and do homework while I'm cooking. This is pretty essential, so I want to have stools somewhere.

Isn't the fridge in 1 by the door that goes outside? It's by the sink, which means someone has to walk across entire kitchen to get to the fridge? I like it better in option 2 when it's up by the hallway.

I think your stools are way too close to someone working at the stove especially as they'll be pulled out a bit for person to sit there. Kid's getting up and moving around would worry me. If you want the stools, then I would move the range.

Our dining room is right next to our kitchen, not formal. DS used to do homework there and we eat there. I think eat in kitchens in a small kitchen are just waste of space when there's a perfectly good table 3 steps away in the dining room. It's also only 3 steps for me to help with homework. I can be at range where your range is and see into dining room, though I dont' think your dining room is as close.

Actually, for the time that I'm studying, we moved dining room table into front living room (big room) and my desk is in the dinning room, so we have to walk through dining room (small) to living room. It's a bit of a pain to walk further, but much better for our lives while I'm a student. DS still does homework at dining room table and we eat there.

[niccig]

Definitely post on gardenweb, you'll get a lot of advice and there could be an even better option no one has thought of yet.

[wolverine2]

I like the 3D pics!

I'm not a fan of glass front cabinets because I like to hide my mess, but if you have nice stuff it can look great and that's a plus in the first one. Could you do the glass fronts over by the fridge in the second one?

I see now what you mean about the seating next to the stove. It does seem close. (ETA: Agree with Nicci - ditch the seating and either have nothing or see if they can do something else there.)

The fridge looks a lot smaller in the first one, is that just an illusion? Would you go with french door fridge in that one as well? I ask because our fridge opens in front of a doorway like that and when it dies we are getting either SBS or French door because it completely blocks the path when open.

The fridge is about the same volume in both, but in the first one there is only room for a standard depth fridge- I don't believe it would open into the doorway, but that's something to double check. We could get a french door one. The second design is a counter depth fridge, and it's wider than the other one.

[wolverine2]

Definitely post on gardenweb, you'll get a lot of advice and there could be an even better option no one has thought of yet.

I did, but I can't get the pictures to work well, so not getting many responses...

[niccig]

I did, but I can't get the pictures to work well, so not getting many responses...

Are the pictures jpg? I put them into photobucket and then you can put an image into the post.

I would also work out the biggest pet peeve you're trying to fix in your kitchen and make sure whatever design you choose, fixes that. For my kitchen, it's not the stove in the traffic line, it's lack of counter space and fridge in middle of kitchen so it's tight to work and someone get to fridge. When I've shown DH designs that move range out of traffic line, he pointed out those ideal layouts for the stove, don't fix the 2 biggest peeves. I'm not going to expense of new kitchen and still live with no counter space and no room for people to move about.

[squimp]

What's behind the wall where the stools are? Can you open up a 'window' and have the seating on the other side?

Oh this is a great idea. An open bar with stools on the other side would be perfect, especially if it makes a more open concept. Not everyone loves an open concept kitchen but I do and it is really popular these days.

Those 3d pics are great! After seeing that I think option 1 is better for two cooks since someone can work by the sink and there is all that oom by the stove. My old kitchen was like that and it worked fairly well because DH or DD could do prep by the sink.

I have glass front cabinets for my dishes and I really like them. My dishes are all white and neatly stacked. You could put pretty serving dishes in there too, which would look really nice.

[KrisM]

I would get rid of the seating in both options. The stools will forever be in the way of the drawers. If someone is sitting there, they'll have to move so you can open the drawer. And, my kids NEVER put the stools back under the counter, so they'd be in the way all the time.

What about something like option 1, but with the sink where the stove is in option 2? It gets the sink closer to the stove. And, you'd have a long run of counter under the windows. A very nice prep area to look out the windows, rather than at cabinets.

[wolverine2]

I would get rid of the seating in both options. The stools will forever be in the way of the drawers. If someone is sitting there, they'll have to move so you can open the drawer. And, my kids NEVER put the stools back under the counter, so they'd be in the way all the time.

What about something like option 1, but with the sink where the stove is in option 2? It gets the sink closer to the stove. And, you'd have a long run of counter under the windows. A very nice prep area to look out the windows, rather than at cabinets.

Ha ha- that's exactly how my kitchen is now!! (Except we have a table under the window). That would certainly save on plumbing. I'd lose upper cabinets though, but it's worth a look!

[wolverine2]

Isn't the fridge in 1 by the door that goes outside? It's by the sink, which means someone has to walk across entire kitchen to get to the fridge? I like it better in option 2 when it's up by the hallway.



No, the fridge in 1 is by the door that goes to the dining room. The door at the bottom at the end of the hallway goes outside. So the fridge in 2 would make one walk through the kitchen.

[wolverine2]

What's behind the wall where the stools are? Can you open up a 'window' and have the seating on the other side?

The most beautiful built-in china cabinet is on the other side. I refuse to touch it. We did consider opening up the other side, but there are some cons to that and we ended up deciding we really liked the original design of the house (built in 1920) and wanted to keep the general floorplan as is.

[niccig]

No, the fridge in 1 is by the door that goes to the dining room. The door at the bottom at the end of the hallway goes outside. So the fridge in 2 would make one walk through the kitchen.

Got it..I had your house layout reversed.

[egoldber]

I would get rid of the seating area. That is not very functional space and it would give you a lot more storage.

[wolverine2]

I would get rid of the seating area. That is not very functional space and it would give you a lot more storage.

I'm so hesitant to get rid of the seating area because my kids are always "near." Being in another room is not going to work for them. Or us, really, if we just want to have a quick sandwich or something and not all 4 of us are eating. Or if I'm cooking and DH wants to hang out and talk to me while I'm cooking. This stuff happens all the time in our kitchen now, despite its size. If I don't have stools, everyone will be standing in my way.

[o_mom]

The most beautiful built-in china cabinet is on the other side. I refuse to touch it. We did consider opening up the other side, but there are some cons to that and we ended up deciding we really liked the original design of the house (built in 1920) and wanted to keep the general floorplan as is.

Ah, well, that's out then.

I do think that either way will work. I would go with #2 personally because I have a similar layout with similar amounts of counter space now and it is perfectly functional and out of the traffic pattern. As well, #1 has some of the things I would like to change about my kitchen.

Some of it might also depend on what kind of cooking you do - if you do a lot of baking where you need to roll dough or spread out vs. just chopping one thing after another in the same space, that could change things.

[wolverine2]

I would get rid of the seating in both options. The stools will forever be in the way of the drawers. If someone is sitting there, they'll have to move so you can open the drawer. And, my kids NEVER put the stools back under the counter, so they'd be in the way all the time.

What about something like option 1, but with the sink where the stove is in option 2? It gets the sink closer to the stove. And, you'd have a long run of counter under the windows. A very nice prep area to look out the windows, rather than at cabinets.

Actually, this gave me an idea!
What if in #1 we put the sink/dw on the side and made the seating area just shallow cabinets, but left some of the lower cabinets out under the window and put some stools there so the people sitting would be looking out the window instead of at the wall? They'd be to the right of the fridge, but not in the way of the sink/stove/dw path. And our radiator is already there, so we would be able to leave it, and then we'd have to pay nothing for any plumbing (!). Not sure if that would lose too much cabinet space- will have to draw it out...

[KrisM]

Actually, this gave me an idea!
What if in #1 we put the sink/dw on the side and made the seating area just shallow cabinets, but left some of the lower cabinets out under the window and put some stools there so the people sitting would be looking out the window instead of at the wall? They'd be to the right of the fridge, but not in the way of the sink/stove/dw path. And our radiator is already there, so we would be able to leave it, and then we'd have to pay nothing for any plumbing (!). Not sure if that would lose too much cabinet space- will have to draw it out...

I was thinking maybe you could do something with seating under the window. I think that is better. Honestly, my kids sit at our peninsula and put things on their laps and look into the family room. I can't think they'd want to look at the wall.

My other thought was maybe the pantry where the stools are and a sitting area where the pantry is?

I don't think you'd lose too many uppers by having the sink where the stove is. You could have shorter uppers above the sink, but still fill the rest of them there and on the window wall.

[wolverine2]

Is it weird to try to put stools under the counter that would basically interrupt your base cabinet run? I can't even figure out what to google to look for that, and haven't seen any pictures of that. And I wonder how long you could go without base cabinets and how you would support the countertop? (and in my dreams, we have soapstone, so heavy).

[wolverine2]

sort of like this...
http://www.houzz.com/photos/740357/Modern-Kitchen-Remodel-contemporary-kitchen-other-metro

except ours wouldn't be that long (or sleek!) and would end at the fridge cabinet instead of the wall.

[speo]

I haven't read all the replies, but I would definitely go with #1. I have a galley kitchen with my sink on one wall and stove and refrigerator on the other. I don't have as much floor space to cross, but I have never had a problem.

Main reasons for picking #1:
-I think the counter space you will use in either scenario is that one to the right of the sink. I would want to maximize it. You'll be scrunched up in #2. And all of the space in #2 next to the frig will probably not be so useful for kitchen prep purposes.
-I would want to maximize the space on either side of the stove and that seems better with #1 because you have a good size on either side of the stove.

[wolverine2]

So, I got my designer to do a new workup based on an idea I had thanks to some of your responses... what do you think? (Ignore the movable chopping cart she has in there- I wouldn't do that... )

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405800533.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405800508.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405800507.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405800505.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1319/13576054/24309883/405800504.jpg

[crl]

I still would prefer to get the range out of the traffic pattern. I also would not like the dishwasher in between the sink and the range. I would end up with the dishwasher open and walking all around it to get to the range. Plus, the space between the sink and the range is the most commonly used prep space, ad I would not want to prep on top of the dishwasher because of the heat and humidity there.

I really would post at Gardweb. There are designers and people who are totally kitchen obsessed. Let them play with your layout--it's like extra free designers!

Catherine

[Cam&Clay]

I would not want the range in the traffic pattern at all. It looks nice but I would want the range closer to the sink, without that gap.

[chozen]

not sure if this is possible, but what about moving the sink under the window with the dish washer to the left of the sink and putting the stove top where the sink is at in the drawing.

[o_mom]

not sure if this is possible, but what about moving the sink under the window with the dish washer to the left of the sink and putting the stove top where the sink is at in the drawing.

I think you are describing Option #2. :)

[chozen]

I think you are describing Option #2. :)

yes maybe, but where is the frig. in option#2 ? is it across the room where the stove is?

[egoldber]

I actually like this arrangement.

I like that you have a nice dropping off place next to the refrigerator. You have a huge prep area between the sink and the fridge, which is where I tend to do all my prep. A kid could also sit in that area and help and be out of the way of the range. I also like how you have space on each side of the range to put pans or things that need to go into a skillet.

I actually like the rolling cart as well. ;)

My main prep area is on top of my dishwasher and it's never been an issue. But I suspect you will probably prep to the left and not the right of the dishwasher.

[GvilleGirl]

I like this one too. There is more room for kids to do homework or others help out. Prepping on top of the dishwasher wouldn't bother me since it isn't usually running at the same time. The dishwasher it will be a lot easier than previous ones to put dishes away. Plus it is much better if you have more than one person cooking.

We have a sink that is across the room from the stove and it hasn't been an issue at all. Everyone gets a heads up when a pot is going to the sink.

I know this was on gardenweb the other day. I'd put the changes up and see what new feedback they'd give.

[o_mom]

yes maybe, but where is the frig. in option#2 ? is it across the room where the stove is?

Oh - yes, you are right. Maybe that could work, though - move the fridge in #2 and put the stools under the counter where the fridge was - but at the other end. Then you have a long prep area if you need it (though away from the sink) and the seating is out of the way.

[JBaxter]

I would move the sink to under the window if it were my choice. I dont like the range in the traffic pattern either. I would put the sink under the window and put the range where where the sink is.

[bisous]

I like the updated layout! I can see why it might be slightly annoying to have the range in the traffic pattern but there are so many positives about this new setup.

[sariana]

I still like #2 the best, but I prefer #3 to #1. Getting the stools out of the corner is a positive thing, but I personally still would not like having to move physically to get something from the stove to the sink or vice versa. (But then it's not my kitchen. :))

[wolverine2]

not sure if this is possible, but what about moving the sink under the window with the dish washer to the left of the sink and putting the stove top where the sink is at in the drawing.

If you look at the earlier posts, this is our option #2. There are some pros and cons.

[wolverine2]

#3 is basically how our kitchen is now (except we have no countertop by the stove and the fridge to the left of our stove- go figure... and no countertop under the window). So I have a pretty good idea of how it would function. I know it seems like the range is in the traffic pattern, but it's really not. We don't use the back doors that often- people don't go all the way through the kitchen that often. Everything the kids would need in this design is no where near the range, and I like that. Also, the range is kind of tucked back around the corner from the entrance a bit. I actually think the kids would be more in the way of the range in #2 than in #1/3 because it's more in the middle of our kitchen.

I also have the sink/dishwasher currently where they are in #3, and it's not a problem at all- I'm never crossing from the sink to the stove when the dishwasher is down. The only thing I don't like about #3 is that I want more drawers and that I'm not sure I have enough pretty things to have all those glass cabinets, though I do like them. I do like the sink under the window, but I think functionally it works better to have the stools there rather than by the stove, and I've decided I can't get rid of the stools.

ETA: One other bonus is that we wouldn't have to change any plumbing... maybe that would leave more $ for the soapstone countertop I'm coveting!

[sariana]

#3 is basically how our kitchen is now (except we have no countertop by the stove and the fridge to the left of our stove- go figure... and no countertop under the window). So I have a pretty good idea of how it would function. I know it seems like the range is in the traffic pattern, but it's really not. We don't use the back doors that often- people don't go all the way through the kitchen that often. Everything the kids would need in this design is no where near the range, and I like that. Also, the range is kind of tucked back around the corner from the entrance a bit. I actually think the kids would be more in the way of the range in #2 than in #1/3 because it's more in the middle of our kitchen.

I also have the sink/dishwasher currently where they are in #3, and it's not a problem at all- I'm never crossing from the sink to the stove when the dishwasher is down. The only thing I don't like about #3 is that I want more drawers and that I'm not sure I have enough pretty things to have all those glass cabinets, though I do like them. I do like the sink under the window, but I think functionally it works better to have the stools there rather than by the stove, and I've decided I can't get rid of the stools.

It sounds as though you have your answer, then! You can always ask for solid doors instead of the glass; that's an easy fix. I hear you on the drawer thing, though--our kitchen does not have enough, and those that we have are too narrow.

[wolverine2]

I like this one too. There is more room for kids to do homework or others help out. Prepping on top of the dishwasher wouldn't bother me since it isn't usually running at the same time. The dishwasher it will be a lot easier than previous ones to put dishes away. Plus it is much better if you have more than one person cooking.

We have a sink that is across the room from the stove and it hasn't been an issue at all. Everyone gets a heads up when a pot is going to the sink.

I know this was on gardenweb the other day. I'd put the changes up and see what new feedback they'd give.

I currently prep on top of my dishwasher too- I never run the dishwasher while I'm cooking, so it's not an issue.

The thing about the traveling from sink/stove is that my kitchen is so small, it's really not that far!

I'll try gardenweb again... I haven't been able to get the measurements readable, so people were asking me to put it on graph paper and hand draw, but I just can't put in that effort right now (no graph paper in the house).

[wolverine2]

I actually like this arrangement.


I actually like the rolling cart as well. ;)



What would you do w/ the rolling cart? I immediately dismissed it because I couldn't think of anything I would use it for with all that new counter space!

[sariana]

I just thought of something else, why I liked #2:

I mentioned upthread that #2 is similar to ours in that the stove is "around the corner" from the sink. I tend to do my prep work in the corner between them. The sink is to my right, and I throw scraps there. The stove is to my left, and I toss chopped veggies and things into pots from there. It is nice to be able to stand there and access both sink and stove without moving. It's also helpful to be able to stir something on the stove while continuing to chop things or wash dishes or whatever in that same general area.

But then I'm lazy.;)

And I hate to cook.:p

[egoldber]

Everything the kids would need in this design is no where near the range, and I like that.

I think that's a big plus.

The upside to prepping on top of/near the dishwasher is it makes it very easy to load up and clean up.

I love the look of glass front cabinets, but we're too messy for that. :p I would ask for solid doors.